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BDSM and Magic(k) (possibly not work safe)

  
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
EvskiG
13:36 / 09.06.06
I think Illmatic is dead-on about Crowley.

Up above I said that a rubber band is a sufficient tool to (i) make you aware of your lapses and (ii) encourage you to be more vigilant in the future. I'd say Crowley used a razor to (iii) make the exercise more hardcore, bad-ass, and "cool," and (iv) get off on causing pain to his students. Neither of those seem to me like reasons to perpetuate his stupid choice in an otherwise brilliant exercise.

Of course, some practitioners might get off on cutting, or think they need the extra deterrent a razor provides. I'd think long and hard, though, before using a knife or razor. Lots of things can hurt like hell (riding crops, pinching an earlobe, whatever) without leaving permanent marks or risking serious blood loss.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:42 / 09.06.06
Bwahahahahaaaa! *runs off to add chapter on the vital importance of hurty implements to own book*
 
 
EvskiG
14:55 / 09.06.06
Care to elaborate on "Bwahahahahaaaa!"?
 
 
Ticker
15:48 / 09.06.06
Ze's obviously been possessed to go on a fridge raid wearing clothespins on hir sensitive parts ;P

Seriously though I would go a bit further and stress that before using pain/punishment/blood letting one must spend a considerable amount of time investigating both the non harmful alternatives and one's reasons for being drawn to the harmful ones.

Make no mistake, home audience, that there are very sound very safe practices to achieve results that don't involve extreme measures.
 
 
Haloquin
16:01 / 09.06.06
xk: Thank you for sharing your poetry, it felt like you laid yourself bare with it.
Please can you elaborate on safer practices that you mentioned? I'm intrigued by the idea, but I'm not keen on taking the overly dangerous route, when I first dedicated myself to magical work I drew a small amount of blood with a sharp knife, as a challenge to myself and a demonstration of my certainty that this was where I wanted to go, but I've mostly left anything like that alone since.

I was sat by the river yesterday as the sun set and I felt unfocussed, and I had a strong urge to stick my arm in a patch of stinging nettles next to me to use the pain to bring myself to the present (thoughts inspired by reading this thread I expect!) and I wondered why pain is so good at focussing our attention, at bringing us to the now, and of laying us bare. Is it simply the adrenaline?
If I've missed this and its somewhere in the thread I apologise.
I didn't touch the stingers as I couldn't quite consolidate a good reason to do it, or one that overrode the "pain? No thanks" reaction.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:20 / 09.06.06
Evski G: that was the evil laughter of convincing unsuspecting readers to endure funny pain by power of words.
 
 
Ticker
16:43 / 09.06.06
Haloquin, thank you for your kind words I appreciate it.

The use or negation of physical sensation in magical/spiritual practices can be divided into two major categories, those that ground you in your physicality and those that push you out of your physicality.

Often the same act will have different affects on different people or even on the same person at different times.

Before undertaking a physical act it is important to ask yourself 'what is my relationship to my body?'. Do you have body image issues that you maybe confusing with spiritual goals? For example while some people may wish to fast to deal with a weight issue they should not sublimate this into a spiritual fast program.
It is also why talking to people about your goals/intentions/process is really important.

By honoring our truths, no matter how uncomfortable they are, we are taking responsibility. Only by taking responsibility of our intentions can we do this work safely and in a sacred manner.

Pain can drive your attention either to the area affected or away. This is true of emotional pain as well as physical pain. Humiliation rituals, which do not always involve physical injury, are often parts of initiations. Ordeal work strips you down to core aspects and allows profound opportunity for transformation if we do so with skilled insight into ourselves.

A lot of people are drawn to simple acts of physical pain to reestablish contact with the present moment. It has an immediacy that cannot be denied. Some practitioners use this aspect to draw themselves back into their regular daily lives after intense spirit walking.

I suspect perhaps, as you say you were unfocused, you wanted the pain of the nettles to bring your awareness back to where you perceived it should be, in the present.
 
 
illmatic
10:49 / 10.06.06
Hey XK

Are people really investigating the reasoning behind certain practices? Are they able to perceive the kinds of stuff you're talking about?

I think it's very easy to miss this stuff, particuarly when starting out, filled up with dreams of ultra Magehood. I certainly did. Pete Carroll is another one I fucking hate for that sort of macho crap. IMO, unlearning all this rubbish was one of the best things I've eveer done, but it would've been better not to learn it in the first place!

Remember though I'm talking about the underlying attitudes or spinoffs of practices, not the conscious investigation of sadism, power dynamics etc through ritualised activity. The whole question of the way to practice, and attitudes of strain, struggle, self-discipline, self-punishment is a seperate area really.
 
 
Ticker
14:06 / 10.06.06
Illmatic

I guess I'm wondering if this kind of agenda/unfortunate imprint is often being carried by magical traditions if all modern explorers are best advised to use some of this dialogue when reviewing the rituals?

If one is armed with the insight that the people who created or tailored these practices were sourcing their own response to these issues, it may give them the ability to adjust the actions undertaken.

I know I have a prejudice in thinking "The whole question of the way to practice, and attitudes of strain, struggle, self-discipline, self-punishment " is a universal magical issue. I've had plenty of conversations with people who don't view their magical learning curve as anything other than walk down the garden path of adoration. Yet the majority of people I talk to do use these tools in their work, save the out right self-punishment.

I'm steeped in the perspective that our Western culture is constantly brewing and bubbling around these issues, with the added elements of power dynamics and guilt. This may seem slightly off subject but please indulge me for a moment...

One of my BDSM instructors once said:

"What do you get if a European child masturbates alone in the forest? Guilt. What do you get if a Japanese child masturbates alone in the forest? An Orgasm."

Obviously this is a generalization and cannot be taken too far, but I bring it up because within the BDSM community there is a wealth of language for exploring your intent and your baggage before you begin your work so you may do so with insight. I'm wondering if this approach of cultural deconstruction and tailored reconstruction is essential to successful magical work? Again I recognize that there are many ways of doing this, and I suspect some of the interest in Eastern sources of the last century's magicians may have been used as a way to re examine the inherited social codes underlying their behavior.
 
 
illmatic
06:04 / 11.06.06
I'm steeped in the perspective that our Western culture is constantly brewing and bubbling around these issues, with the added elements of power dynamics and guilt.

I'd agree with that. I think the whole push as HARD as you can/unconscious self-punishment thing is one of our cultural tropes, and crosses over into magical practice. I'm sure it's present in other cultures also in different ways. I suppose the consciousness of the process brought BDSM stuff could really help here. It might also make one conscious of the power dymnaics in teaching relationships. However, I think I'm trying to reach for something more basic - the importance of simply liking yourself, forgiving yourself, and exploring boundaries and limitations without pushing and pressure.
 
 
Ticker
12:22 / 11.06.06
However, I think I'm trying to reach for something more basic - the importance of simply liking yourself, forgiving yourself, and exploring boundaries and limitations without pushing and pressure.

I've been pondering this and framing it in my language and experience. It seemes to me that there exist a large array of ways to get to this place, which I tend to call owning yourself (accepting your responsibility for your experience of life, lovingly). For some folks the yoga traditions seem to be a great way to get there. I was talking to my spouse yesterday about if there might be a parallel in the evolution of a sacred BDSM player and a yoga practioner. Learning to develop a dialogue with the body, learning how the body-mind relates, using the body's experience to reshape the thoughts etc. It occurred to me that sacred BDSM can be viewed as the modern sexual driven tool for self awareness. If used in pursuit of the goal of self awareness it can and usually does lead to the place you describe in the above quote.

I suspect that depending on the individual's level of complex cultural tags they will be drawn to the tools they need to get where they need to go. In fact I'm comfortable stating this as a happy obvious generalization. To that end I would place sacred BDSM work right up there with a list of ancient and modern options for those actively seeking their path and to say that others might do well to examine it for valuable insights. I'd say this is especially true if they discover within themselves some of the more difficult subjects we have been poking, including self punishment.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:35 / 11.06.06
Obviously this is a generalization and cannot be taken too far

Actually, I'd like to take it a bit further. What was your instructor's analysis of Japanese culture? That is, what was it about Japanese culture that facilitated guilt-free masturbation? And, therefore, what are the implications of that in terms of the use of BDSM in magic? In particular, how one conceptualises and feels shame must have enormous implications for D/S work, yes?
 
 
Ticker
19:59 / 11.06.06
My instructor I'm quoting was raised in Japan and is of Japanese and American/European descent. Her analysis was that Japanese BDSM focused on shame while European/American BDSM focused on guilt. Specifically that the area of transgression in Japanese culture was perceived between people (the emotion of breaking a societal code of conduct) while the area of transgression in European/American BDSM was primarily with the Divine (the emotion of breaking a moral/spiritual Law).

In her example the Japanese child did not experience shame because there were no other people around to witness the event while the European child experienced guilt beneath the eye of God.

In terms of 'traditional' BDSM my instructor was highlighting an awareness of social conditioning as a tool to explore transgression. Transgression when looked at from a magical standpoint relates to willful transformation.

In particular, how one conceptualises and feels shame must have enormous implications for D/S work, yes?

In this example shame and guilt are treated as separate emotional reactions. To segue into a moment of 'regular' BDSM dynamics, the knowledge of how a person reacts to either state is critical when selecting an action in pursuit of a goal. Often the dialogue around scenes is used to intensify a number of emotional states, including humiliation. However, sometimes a scene is designed to merely investigate how someone reacts to an action and this knowledge is used to further the process towards a specific goal. Some BDSM doesn't involve any of this type of dynamic and sticks to physical body play and trust work.

In my use of magical BDSM the act of crossing boundaries with intentional transgressing both creates an emotional state I can source for energy work as well as allowing me to do transformative self perception re shaping. For myself personally, I would never engage in a scene with guilt/shame/humiliation/degradation unless it was for the specific task of using it for a magical outcome. To be clear there are many people for whom merely being in one of those states is erotic and they do not use them for transformative work. A side note here being one person's magical act is often another person's therapeutic act and yet another person's sexual act.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:03 / 11.06.06
Thanks, xk - most enlightening.
 
 
Ticker
15:21 / 15.06.06
I'm in negotiations with a new playmate right now and I thought it might be useful to explore here how sacred/magical BDSM negotiations are different or the same as regular BDSM or magical group workings.

I used a standard BDSM questionnaire to start with, there are plenty online to use as sources. I then edited it down to activities I'm interested in working with. Over time I've created my own questionnaire that begins by defining BDSM terms the person and I are going to use. It has essay section and a rating section. I use my own language with the essay questions enquiring why someone is interested in this exchange and what their expectations are.
Then it segues into more formal language regarding contractual agreements of mutual responsibility and session requirements.

This document is filled out by the other person on their own in private and then used as the basis for our mutual discussions about what we want to do.
With the people I'm going to undertake Ordeal Work with the conversations are lengthy and there are many of them. In these conversations I ask about their religious/spiritual beliefs/philosophies and experiences with both BDSM and more traditional ritual. Most of these conversations are for developing a common language and symbol structure.

I'm heavy on listing the dangers of this work. From the purely physical to the mental and of course the emotional and spiritual levels it is a very complex exchange. In my experience even if there only two people planning on doing this work, in reality you have a full room. You have the conscious desires of each person, the unconscious, and the influences they both bring. Where this is divergent from regular BDSM is those influences are often with a capital 'I'. Often those that seek this work are being directed to do so by their Gods or other non human Influences.

I find in this work divination is essential. I started out with just gut level intuitions about whether or not I should play/work with someone and quickly found I needed more insight.

Most of the work I have done is with very discrete uses of ritual. To the other person it may not even appear to be any different than very methodical/ornate BDSM. I often let the rope do all the fancy talking and use silence or music to help focus intentions. If I'm doing my job well, the effects flow into place. Part of my mental state is very open and receptive to both cues I'm receiving from the other person and from my intuition.

Because I'm increasing the level of ritual work I'm starting to build divination into the exchange. Taking a moment to do a tarot spread or roll the bones or even see how a bundle of rope untwists gives me the space and time to listen to requirements of the Others.

I'm finding Raven's advice about humility is essential. I seek the guidance of the other person's Influences as well as my own throughout the entire process. From the negotiates, into the design of the Ordeal, and through it.

So in effect I'm negotiating with the other person and their Influences as well as my own.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:55 / 16.06.06
Haus, xk, you might find this essay Behind the Paper Screen: Japan's 'Culture of Shame' of interest.
 
 
Ticker
14:19 / 16.06.06
squee! thank ya!
 
 
Ticker
19:45 / 21.07.06
WOOO! WOOO!

sorry to be a bouncy thing but I'm very excited I just got an email that Raven Kaldera's book on the Ordeal Path is now available from Lulu.
It will be on amazon in a few months but for the impatient (like me):

Dark Moon Rising: Pagan BDSM & the Ordeal Path
 
 
Ticker
19:05 / 07.08.06
HOLY MOTHER OF CATSES!

The Dark Moon Rising book is a groundbreaking collection of perspectives from numerous skilled and wonderful Ordeal Masters and Ordeal Dancers. Raven Kaldera has brought together essential technical information and profound personal experience on the often taboo subject of Sacred BDSM and the Ordeal Path.


..okay that's my sane trying-to-be-helpful-about-the-book blurb. Now I'm going to rave for a minute...

It wasn't the technical stuff that grabbed me by the guts and set me howling and leaping about. It was reading the raw viscreal experiences of people engaged in the most important aspects of their lives, a spiritual way of living that resonates so much for me and yet is visible no where else in our modern society. It was the power of the voices, some gentle and some screaming, but all lifted in celebration of exploring their connection to the Divine that made me weep. Through the pages of a book I was connected to my far flung tribe each uniquely beautiful in their own expression and yet joined in the shared truth.
 
 
*
06:47 / 08.08.06
Thanks for this review; I was planning to buy the book but now I'm REALLY planning to buy the book. Did you get the version which was free of publishing errors? I heard an earlier run had some errata...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:22 / 08.08.06
That's been sorted out now. Some glitch at the publisher's end, apparently. I have my e-book now and it's perfect.

This is an amazing text. Like xk says, it's the personal accounts that really make it. I'd recommend this to anyone with an interest in sacred BDSM--heck, to anyone with an interest in bodywork as it relates to magic and spirituality.

I'll have more to add when I stop bouncing on the bed and going "Wooo!"
 
 
illmatic
08:39 / 08.08.06
I think I'll give this a go. I don't really need another 437 pages in my life to read at the moment, given the pile next to my bed, but it sounds interesting.
 
 
Ticker
14:46 / 08.08.06
I've been very lucky to meet a few of the people who wrote sections of the book and across the board they are dedicated to helping the greater community of spirit workers. I believe this comes across in the book itself very strongly as they source their own journeys to offer guidence and support.

After all let's face it some of the ritual actions I undertake are likely to horrify and confuse the average fluffy pagan. I suspect using the dialogue and experiences in Dark Moon Rising can create a space for understanding. I got a real sense of this possibility from reading Morning Glory Zell's essay.

Last night I was discussing the book and the Ordeal Path with one of my friends. We were talking about the places in ourselves we use or want to use sacred BDSM to explore. I realised while we were talking that even though I've met and talked to a larger community that verbally and through action accepts my brand of spiritual practice, the quiet sharing of experiences through the text had imparted a greater sense of permission to me.

As much as a reader can project all kinds of what have you on a text I do feel very strongly that reading the personal experiences of others answered profound questions I had about the process of doing this work. In particular one of Lydia Helasdottir's essays resonated down to the roots of my soul about how I use my own Ordeals to deconstruct/reconstruct myself to then be of service to others.

The wide range of experiences accessible through the book was phenomenal as well considering the text overall feels very focused and skillfully presented.

Okay I'm gushing. Yeah you should read it if you have any interest in this stuff.
 
 
Ticker
16:54 / 08.08.06

I've been mulling over one of the concepts from the book quite a lot over the last few days. That of being 'wired' for this sort of work or like a tool crafted into shape to fit a purpose. I think I just got handed a huge set of concepts and language I didn't have before to describe my experiences.

So much of my work has been to strike a balance between my inner drives and my need to remain a welcome member of society. Some how in the pursuit of balance I over looked that I'm useful in this shape and to some extent made to be this way.

Yeah I'm familar with the 'hammer blows of the Great Sculptor' theory of soul shaping but it is quite startling to go from looking at one's self as disabled to suddenly realizing you've been uniquely enabled. Not in a giant ego way of being all that, but that there is a form of work that can only be undertaken when you perceive the world this way. I had awareness of it but for some reason I've integrated it into myself differently after reading of others' experiences of the same.

We all go through Ordeals, birth being a perfect universal example of a traumatic, dangerous, and yet ultimately productive event with definable differences on either side of the experience. Who can say what Ordeal drawn into your life is going to break you and who you will be when you heal from it, or if you ever do.

Raven mentions that not all internal monsters can be healed and that's not the point. It's quite odd having both Beowulf and Grendel bunking inside of your psyche especially when you like Grendel better but the external world only approves of Beowulf. (there are some folks who believe you can't get the hero without the monster, but I've met a lot of monsters without heros attached)

I've been reflecting quite a bit on my last Ordeal and re examining some of what it revealed to me about my life and my relationship with the Divine. Some of it's very fucked up and I keep pushing it around trying to make sense of it. Overall I know I just have to sit with the pieces of new information and it will do what it is supposed to do to my awareness.

Who must do the hard things? Ze who can.
 
 
Ticker
12:12 / 17.02.07
I attended an amazing presentation by Midori on Cathartic vs. Catalytic scenes. (I found the lecture's precursor in a two part article )
 
 
Ticker
13:25 / 17.02.07
I should add the reason I'm sticking these links here is because it strikes me that many of us using BDSM for magical purposes are doing so to harness these two states as well as the more tangible products.

For example the cathartic release can be used to propel an intent into a magical working or the catalytic to shift internal perspectives and/or transform the practitioner.
 
 
Katherine
17:34 / 23.02.07
I recieved my copy in the post yesterday and from the quick glance I have managed to have it looks an excellient piece of work, thank you for suggesting it.

It is miles better than the carnal al book and indeed better than the odd chapter you find in the BDSM books about any spiritual side. Hopefully I'll be able to read it all in the course of the next week or so.
 
 
Ticker
17:56 / 23.02.07
archabyss, do post what you think of it when you're done please.
 
 
Katherine
14:13 / 24.02.07
Planning on doing so, I was dipping in and out of it all of last night. The binding invocation is outstanding in my opinion, something I have done but never with words. I forward to adapting, using and inspiring my own from this book.

I don't know if anyone here reads The Oracle Occult Magazine but issue 7 (the latest publication) has an article on this theme entitled 'The Whip & The Wand' by John-Paul Patton, quite a nice if vague piece. Which, I feel is a good way of introducing the subject in to a more open audience as he shows the link to sex magic in a clear manner yet leaves the depths to be researched by those interested.

As I would personally feel that someone just starting to explore this may possible be shocked/scared by some of the contents of Raven's book.
 
 
Ticker
13:20 / 25.02.07
As I would personally feel that someone just starting to explore this may possible be shocked/scared by some of the contents of Raven's book.


Explore what specificly? Someone from a BDSM perspective or a spiritual perspective? Which contents in particular do you think would be shocking/scary?
 
 
Katherine
17:03 / 26.02.07
Both at the time.

Although after some thought over the weekend and additional reading I actually don't think that last line is right now. In fact I'm prodding it at the moment and trying to figure out what I meant by it at the time, it seems a total alien remark to me now. Sorry about that.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:11 / 27.02.07
I've had the book for a while now, and my first impression was to cringe. I'm not easily shocked, so that's not an issue. I've had far too much exposure at least in theory to such a wide variety of alternative cultural practices for that. But I'm hypersensitive. Emotionally, I suppose, but I mean physically. Or perhaps, more accurately, neurologically - my physical senses aren't particular extraordinary, I just can't ignore them quite as well as most folks. So while I have the slightly higher pain and anaesthetic tolerances typical of redheads, the pain I DO feel bothers me a lot more than it bothers most others.

I flipped through the book both excited to have this important reference added to my library, and concerned that I'm just not "cool" enough, not hardcore enough, not impressive enough for this audience. I work for a bunch of sex-oriented gods, for reasons most folks don't find immediately obvious. I get a lot of people asking me questions for relationship and sex advice. Even if I never plan to do any of this myself, I'm sort of obliged to understand it for other people's sake.

But I feel like such a frelling WIMP. And then I realized - a regular day with my levels of sensitivity is enough to drive other people nuts outright. I don't court sensory ordeals because I get quite enough of them as it is.

So, within my own work, and as a place to start understanding this from the inside so I can recognise it from the outside, I need to focus on emotional and spiritual ordeals.

With that firmly in mind, I think I can get what I need out of this book. But still, I worry it's a lot of the right ideas pointing me in the wrong direction.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:51 / 27.02.07
I'm concerned that you found yourself thinking along the "I'm not cool enough" or "I'm a wimp" lines, even though you seem to have put those thoughts aside.

I'd like to reiterate for everyone's benefit that physical ordeal work isn't for anyone. Ordeal work of any kind isn't for everyone. There are plenty of other worthy practices that'll get you to the same, or a similar, place in the end. It's also worth bearing in mind when you read about someone undergoing some spectacular ordeal of the flesh that if the same person were subjected to a different kind of ordeal, they might collapse like a soufflé. One person might take a magnificent whipping but be quite destroyed if you put hir in a hood and left hir alone for a couple of minutes. Another might be okay with the hood, but go to pieces if restrained. I practice ordeal work, but I'm not at all good with pain in the normal run of things--I have to be warmed up to it, and too much too soon will cause problems. If I'm deep enough into subspace, pain is okay but emotional and verbal stuff can ruin me.

There aren't any wimps. Everyone has stuff they can take and stuff they can't.
 
 
Ticker
15:57 / 27.02.07
Also I'd like to add not all Ordeal work is physical at all. There's some pretty powerful stuff being done with emotional endurance. Some Ordeals are having to leave your comfortable surroundings and go somewhere new and alien, others include service type work for the community. In fact there is a huge range of Ordeal work.

Raven's book is focusing specificly on the use of the body but even that includes ditch digging and tree chopping. Ordeals are more about effort than just about pain.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:08 / 27.02.07
I am aware that a lot of my "I'm just not cool/strong/shiny enough" reaction comes from how prominently fashionable BDSM is in my extended social groups. There's also a layer of assumption that physical things are more real than emotional things, so it's not as impressive to stand up to an emotional ordeal, and it's far, far wimpier to fall apart from mere words, eh?

And I KNOW that's bullshit, but while I can conciously choose to set it aside, I can't help feeling it.

--Ember--
 
  

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