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BDSM and Magic(k) (possibly not work safe)

 
  

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17:29 / 27.05.05
How have you used sexual power/pain play to accomplish wonders? Alternatively, how have you used magickal techniques to enhance your sex life? Alt. alt, why do you think BDSM and magick shouldn't mix? Have at it.

To start: While it seems evident to me that pain/pleasure sensations are excellent trance induction/vehicles for gnosis, maybe it has been less often explored here how power play as a form of dramaturgy could be used in magick. For example, perhaps a top could take on the role of something that the practitioner feels is controlling hir life to a negative effect, and then have the practitioner-as-bottom turn the tables. The top could similarly embody a force which seems to the practitioner to have too much power over the world at large, and have the erstwhile bottom turn the tables, subjugate, bind, and "slay" them.

From the flip side: I have a hard time being confident enough to top effectively, and I have toyed with the idea of finding a suitably dominant-yet-caring archetype to invoke while I top. My concern is, obviously, that I need to stay in control enough and in the moment enough to keep my bottom's safety foremost in mind. Archetypes, like Entities, can be unpredictable. Any recommendations?
 
 
Eudaimonic.lvx
19:15 / 05.06.05
Check this book .... an interesting exploration.

Carnal Alchemy
 
 
Katherine
12:03 / 06.06.05
I've read that book and feels it lacks in a few places, bdsm is not just another type of sex magic imho.

If you feel that staying in control will be a problem then you need to sort that first. Regardless of what you are doing, if your partner gives the safeword then thats it for that ritual, even if you are getting close to the goal.

If you are in a relationship with another practioner then why not work with them with you as the bottom?
 
 
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18:11 / 06.06.05
Thanks for the book recommendation-- archraven, can you tell me more specifically what you didn't like about it?

My current partner is a nonhatter who practices BDSM sometimes, and is also more comfy on the bottom. I haven't thought seriously about incorporating magick with our occasional BDSM yet; all this is mostly a hypothetical exploration right now.

I've been thinking about this a little more. I think I'll do some solo work with an Archetype, programming some behaviors anchored to safewords and situations. I use green-yellow-red safewords by habit, and I think it should be pretty simple to anchor a "step back and let me be in charge again for a minute" behavior to the word "yellow", and a banishing to "red". This is not, after all, that much different to what uncunt/nonhatter BDSM people do when they top, anyway. Situations might be a little more difficult. I'm less worried about stopping when my partner safewords (because I think that would cause me to banish reflexively anyway) than I am about my bottom not noticing something wrong with me not being in a position to catch it myself, because the Archetype isn't in a mood to check its slave's circulation, for example.
 
 
A0S
20:43 / 06.06.05
If you are worried about not checking if your bottom is OK then use safer techniques at least until you feel more confident with your archetype. For example there is less chance of thick leather cuffs cutting off circulation than rope, don't tie anything round their neck, use a gag they can spit out and can't swallow (get them to hold a crop in their teeth if you aren't using it .
 
 
Katherine
08:44 / 07.06.05
archraven, can you tell me more specifically what you didn't like about it?
I personally felt the safety aspects weren't as in depth as they should be, the physical side was ok* but more the mental effects of such working wasn't as good as I would prefer. It's hard to describe but the book is worth reading just for some more insight, but I feel that the indepth discussion with the partner before doing this should be more in depth than the authors give credit for.

Sorry if this is a bit rambly but I can't seem to think of a better way of phrasing this. :-/

*to be honest there's a lot of bdsm books out there just purely on safety if people wanted to read up, and I believe there is rather good reference list of them in this book.
 
 
A0S
09:35 / 07.06.05
I think Archraven has pretty much summed it up. Carnal Alchemy contains some interesting ideas on BDSM Sex Magick but doesn't cover any aspect in enough depth.
There are certainly better books on techniques and safty such SM101 but I don't know of any others that cover the Sex Magick aspect.
 
 
jeed
10:02 / 07.06.05
I'd recommend Pat Califia's 'Sensuous Magic' to fill in some of the gaps that Carnal Alchemy leaves out. It touches on SM in a ritual/magickal context (just a few pages, as far as i remember), but I found it really well grounded. And it had some really good sections on what archraven was saying about communication, safety and planning, which is probably even more important if you're putting a magickal slant on it than just playing.
 
 
*
03:41 / 08.06.05
Oooh, neat. I didn't realize Patrick had written a book on sex magick. I will definitely have to check that out.

Edit: Sorry. I should have said I didn't realize he'd written a book with sex magick in it. I should really read your posts and mine more carefully, even when I'm posting exhausted.
 
 
charrellz
04:09 / 08.06.05
I've bbeen debating trying this sort of thing for a while now, as my SO is a submissive, but also a nonhatter. I'm not sure if she would be OK with me doing a working while *ahem* doing her. I thought of using the dom role to create a greater sense of control for myself in other matters, but I'm worried about how that would carry over into her being a sub. Any thoughts?
 
 
Katherine
05:34 / 08.06.05
At a guess I would say that your partner would pick up on something to begin with, the feeling of you not being you type feeling. That would remove any feeling of safety one has whilst at the 'mercy' of someone else.

I find it better to discuss the idea with your partner in full. If they have any doubts or worries it can be sorted then.
Also has your partner been involved in any work you have done before? How did they feel about it...etc are all good points to consider.
 
 
A0S
06:01 / 08.06.05
Also IMHO it would depend on what sort of Magick you were planning on doing. If you were just looking to raise energy off your partner to throw at something external then that perhaps isn't the best way to go about it. To me BDSM is transformation Magick, particulaly for the bottom but ideally for both participants. If your partner wanted to be a Magickian but couldn't find the focus or belief then a BDSM working may be a good way of helping her do that. Also transforming situations in which you both involved, though this would be easier if you were both Magickians.
 
 
A0S
06:15 / 08.06.05
Ooops just properly read your post. I see you are doing transformative Magick - sorry. Well the advice still applies and as Archraven says talk to her.
 
 
jeed
07:45 / 08.06.05
No worries. It's only a couple of pages in that Sensuous Magic book, mainly to do with safeguarding yourself during and after rituals involving blood. There's a whole essay on ritual sex/magick in 'Public Sex: Culture of Radical Sex', which is another one of Pat's, that might be more of interest.
 
 
Ticker
19:11 / 18.05.06
yeah I know I'm late on this one but it's the thread that made me want sit on the door step and wait to be let in...

I'm starting to fully engage with sacred BDSM especially as it manifests on the Ordeal Path. There are a lot of ethical questions about doing ritual work with people you can't do full disclosure with, or who don't quite agree with you. However, if you refrain from ever putting yourself in a place of friction you miss out on being challanged.
It's an interesting combo of magical etiquette and bdsm etiquette.

I find that a large number of people drawn to body modification are doing primal intent workings in the process. They seek transformation through focus and not a little pain, ok sometimes a lot of pain. The sex part is tricky and I currently do not work with orgasm as part of the shared ritual.

Successful BDSM and magic both require clear intent and great improv skills. Both operate best when you create alternate/sacred space at least in your perceptions.

It appears that the magical/pagan/occult communities are less comfortable welcoming the outright BDSM tools than the inverse. There is a steady increase of ritual work happening in the BDSM communities. Not really surprising as there's a lot more blood being spilled in the latter.

what have you folks discovered since this thread started?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:30 / 19.05.06
Well-bumped, xk. Good post.

I found this article, The Ordeal Path: Introduction to Neo-Pagan BDSM, very interesting.

I definately have stuff that I should contribute here, but I need to mull it over and get it all coherent in my head first.
 
 
Ticker
21:33 / 21.05.06
Funny you should post that specific link Mordant!

I just came back this AM from Ordeal Mastery Training with the author Raven Kaldera.
It was sort of a cross between shamanic rite instruction and BDSM play practice, transcending both. Really marvelous hands on weirdness and instructive theory.
Raven is a fantastic teacher and the other students and I learned a great deal from him.


But yeah you've unearthed my agenda in bumping this thread....

I'm very excited to create new Ordeals for myself and others after yesterday. Like tattoos, they can become addcitive.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:36 / 21.05.06
Blimey, you're the second person I know online who went to that workshop! I'm a bit envious.
 
 
Ticker
21:40 / 21.05.06
Tiny world sometimes, innit?

...and well that should mean you have two choices of couches to surf to go to the next one!

I'm happy to go into detail if you and the Temple woould like to know more.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:46 / 21.05.06
If you feel comfortable sharing, then go for it.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
00:38 / 22.05.06
I also want to mull a bit before (possibly) contributing to this (very interesting) discussion, but just wanted to throw another book link into the mix. (I have that Carnal Alchemy book, but don't remember very much about it, aside from similar misgivings to those expressed above)

Radical Ecstasy by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy (authors of several well-known books on SM) focuses on 'SM and transcendance' and weaves together descriptions of some of the authors' own scenes, their personal journeys and discussions of the possibilities and appeals of BSDM as accessing ecstasy, bliss, transcendant states.

A wonderful book. One of the most interesting aspects for me is the ongoing dialogue between Easton's narratives of engagement with spirituality (primarily along Pagan lines) and Hardy's coming to terms with ecstatic experience and bliss that her, in her own words, 'left-brained' identity finds profoundly challenging as well as rewarding.
 
 
Ticker
01:22 / 22.05.06
Indeed, the direction one enters into the topic tends to color the experience. There were pagans & bdsm friendly shamans-in-training, and myself attending. I guess I would currently describe myself as neither a bdsm player nor neo pagan but an amalgamation with narrative magic thrown in. But then who the hell can really wear a stereotype comfortably?

The BDSM folks I know are comfortable with the language of spirituality regarding their play/work and where it takes them, but not the magical consequences of such scenes. The psyche impact of blood letting is one thing, the magical power is another.

The pagans seem leery of anything that might align them with the 'bad magic workers'. This seems to be a general discomfort with being lumped in with old school satanists as well as the occultists in general. Religion is one thing, ritual and magic outside of a PC structure is an uneasy topic for them.

The bod mod folks seem to be the most open minded though they too are worried about 'hippy shit'.

One thing is for certain, when you're in the grip of intense pain you elected to engage with what other people think is a very very low priority. Unless of course you're there just to be macho and there were none of those peoples present.

We all have our prejudices and they appear to come to the forefront with these challenging topics.

My psyche functions on a primal level. Only my pain, my endurance is a fit offering/sacrifice as it is the only thing that is truly mine to give. That said, I'm not a classic masochist and I tend to be a Top/Dominant. Even when going through an Ordeal it is usually one I have constructed. When putting people through Ordeals/scenes I tend to be what they need me to be. Rigger, Designer, and/or Minotaur in the Labyrinth.
 
 
*
02:23 / 22.05.06
*also seethes with envy*
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:43 / 22.05.06
Wow. That sounds incredible. (add me to the *seething* pile)

We all have our prejudices and they appear to come to the forefront with these challenging topics

Amen to that.

Fascinating as I recognise a fair amount of what you say, as I'd probably be of the 'comfortable with the pyschic/energetic implications of what I'm doing but twitchy beyond that' group.

Really interesting. Thankyou so much for sharing that.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:49 / 22.05.06
Would it be too personal to ask which prejudices you found were challenged in this arena? If it is, I apologise, and please do ignore this question. I'm fascinated by this, but don't want to overstep boundaries/pry.
 
 
Ticker
15:28 / 22.05.06
I'm happy to have an invitation to discuss these things. I find other people's responses really help me process deeper stuff that I wouldn't on my own put through the language/intellect chunk of my brain.

A large part of my background is in Fortean research and folklore. Both require a certain distance from the subject and a goodly dollop of skepticism. It's strange place to be a believer and yet know that doubt is a safety mechanism. Just because something looks and sounds like what you want it to be doesn't mean it is. Sometimes you have to poke it with a stick.

That said, I have become aware of my prejudices around ceremonal magic, public ritual, and shared ritual. I grew up hearing the gossipy shit of basic human ugliness and abuses of power inside occult orgs and the resulting nasty magical consquences. I also have the same issues regarding BDSM communities. Unchecked egos on the rampage, drama, power brokering etc. Makes my skin crawl.

Sadly my distrust of groups has kept me from the resources of communities. Sure you get weenies every where. Being an asshole is a basic human option and knows no borders. Yet the knowledge and support of a collective cannot be replaced.

Intellectually I know why funny hats, hand waving, and dramatics work during magic. Yet I'm the sort of person who cringes while watching sitcom tension unfold.

There's a saying in some BDSM circles, if you aren't able to dominant someone with your persona, you sure as hell aren't with the whip. Shared ritual is similar, which makes it tricky as an art form. You have to grab people by the reptile brain.

Watching the other students' integrity bring them to a place I could recognize really humbled my ass down and taught me another form of respect for the diverse ways people approach things. When you offer yourself up on the alter of your beliefs I cannot help but hold you in the highest regard. Even with the hand waving.
 
 
Katherine
18:02 / 22.05.06
Great to see this thread up and running again.

Radical Ecstasy by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy

In two of their other books, they also discuss the use of BDSM in spiritually/magic as well. And they certainly write in a more practical and safe manner than Carnal Alchemy.

Working with a partner magically requires a lot of trust personally I find on both sides, and when you introduce something like BDSM then that trust has to be concrete. You really have to know what you are doing, you are concentrating on a lot of things in one go as multi-tasking goes; the work in hand (no pun), your partner (or partners), and yourself. All in a highly charged atmosphere.

The one thing I have found though doing this, is that old saying ‘Know Thy Self’ sometimes gets another dimension that is very unexpected. Introducing BDSM into sex magic really did stretch my personal perceptions and did expand my limits, I need a couple of days/weeks to come to terms to the whole experience and to fully understand the internal results for each time.
 
 
Ticker
18:52 / 22.05.06
archabyss,

I'm glad you brought up the question of safety. It's a trisky thing.

On the BDSM side there is the whole vast arguement between Safe, Sane, and Consensual (SSC) peoples and the Risk Aware Consensual Kink (RACK) peoples. The arguement goes like this, edge play can never be safe and if we try to make it safe we're not on the edge.

In the magical discussion the idea of the Sacred as inherently dangerous is a well known topic.

..and in body mod the arguement says even under ideal sterile conditons something could still go wrong and btw we're not in sterile conditions.

It's an important point that was thoughtfully present by Raven Kaldera in the training and one I've heard before. If you want a safe experience this road is probably not for you. Even under the ideal conditions with everyone focused on doing their part to bring you through, death, injury and mental/emotional harm is a real danger.

Now does that mean having your 12 yrold daughter's ears pierced as an Ordeal for her first menses is dangerous? Why yes it is, but it is a different kind of danger than say being tied to a tree as an intiation.

I personally believe that there exists a range of experiences. Yes the risk of failure must be geniune in all of them, but that failure does not have to be death and madness. Yet we are a culture that values things because of how much they cost. Risking everything including your life has its place.

I ask you to recall that even the most vanilla sex is dangerous on many levels. Throw in magic and you have raised the complex factors. Then twist it with power exchange, role exploration, and physical pain and you've just increased the factor again.

This is one of the reasons why I tend to leave the sex part at the door and just work with all the other bits. It's more like rewiring the house with the breakers flipped off then doing it with them on.
 
 
Ticker
19:12 / 22.05.06
(id)entity said:


To start: While it seems evident to me that pain/pleasure sensations are excellent trance induction/vehicles for gnosis, maybe it has been less often explored here how power play as a form of dramaturgy could be used in magick. For example, perhaps a top could take on the role of something that the practitioner feels is controlling hir life to a negative effect, and then have the practitioner-as-bottom turn the tables. The top could similarly embody a force which seems to the practitioner to have too much power over the world at large, and have the erstwhile bottom turn the tables, subjugate, bind, and "slay" them.


Transmute maybe better than slay. Think Beauty and the Beast rather than St. George and the Dragon. Considering the potent stuff you're working with even mimed death needs to be thoughtfully enacted. Not a lot of Archetypes dig being slayed.



From the flip side: I have a hard time being confident enough to top effectively, and I have toyed with the idea of finding a suitably dominant-yet-caring archetype to invoke while I top. My concern is, obviously, that I need to stay in control enough and in the moment enough to keep my bottom's safety foremost in mind. Archetypes, like Entities, can be unpredictable. Any recommendations?


There's a lot to choose from. One woman I met worked with Artemis but most of the folks work with Death Deities. (now there is a unpredictable group).

Using divination to check in and see if you should be playing is a grand idea. Not horsing completely to an Unknown quality is a good safety factor and of course if you have to go to the scary place having wranglers witnessing is not a bad idea.

Most people who horse always have wranglers spotting them and there is a reason for that. There is a vast difference with being guided by and being possessed by a Deity.

This dilemma over being appropriate is common with folks starting to top/Domme and gets revisited when you chunk in the magical angle.
I went to Raven to consult over what I was starting to see as my path and we had an amazing discussion about ego.

Basically no matter how Dom/Top/Badass you are if you start going to this play space of the Divine you are a sub/bottom to that Influence. Your ego gets placed on hold while the needs of the person you're working with are addressed. Doesn't mean you don't get whatever you need dealt with addressed as well, rather it keeps things in perspective.

I've often wondered if the whole issue I have with collectives of vanilla occult groups and non spiritual BDSM folks is this empty slot in their cosmology. Maybe I have too much of a priest's outlook of being the technician/facilitator to trust people who think they are in control.
Raven pointed out this humility is not a lack of confidence in one's skills and ability, rather it's just a big ass lack of hubris.
 
 
petunia
19:52 / 22.05.06
I'm really enjoying reading this thread, but unfortunately have nothing to add, as it's all pretty new stuff to me.

But just a little vocab question:
What're horses/horsing?

I assume wrangers are those who keep a check on what the horses doing?

*runs away with a little vanilla blush showing on cheeks*
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:14 / 22.05.06
'Horse' in this context is a term borrowed from Vodoun, meaning one who is possessed by--'ridden' by a spirit (Lwa, God, whoever's been invited to the party). Horsing is the act of being ridden by a spirit. And yeah, a wrangler is the person who takes care of the horse, helps manage the possession, makes sure the interactions between the horsed spirit and the congregation go smoothly, ensures that the spirit is treated respectfully and has enough of Hir preferred tipple, food, smokes ect (and doesn't elope with the High Priest or whatever).
 
 
Ticker
01:26 / 23.05.06
..also in this aspect of sacred BDSM, the spotters/wranglers make sure that the divinely inspired Top/Ordeal Master doesn't kill'n'eat the bottom/supplicant. Though I suppose Mordant, that would fall under elopement ala Hades' style.

really, bring on the questions. This is kind of a cutting edge area of magic for most folks so it is not like you *should* already know this stuff.

I believe the number of fully trained Ordeal Masters in the public realm is still far under 20 people.

Another person to check out is Bridgett Harrington over at:

*BELOW SITE IS NOT WORK SAFE AND CONTAINS ADULT EROTIC IMAGES!!!*

www.ropelover.com

I'm hoping to someday to bribe her over a schmancy meal into talking shop with me.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:54 / 23.05.06
Not horsing completely to an Unknown quality is a good safety factor and of course if you have to go to the scary place having wranglers witnessing is not a bad idea.

Mordant, xk - I've not come across the Horse/wrangler terminology before, but it fits right in with my experience of doing possession work - which has been mainly (but not exclusively) in groups. For example, two years, I was involved in orchestrating a Baphomet possession ritual. This took place at a yearly gathering of queer pagan folk, inside a large marquee - (I think there were between 25-30 celebrants). Whilst other people were organising the ritual structure, as the horse, I made sure that there were people designated to "hold the space", and also - most importantly - someone who I could trust to act as an "anchor". Having someone whom I know can be relied upon to bring me back from possession I find, allows me to fully give myself up to the possessing entity. In preparation for the main event, I spent the day fasting, mostly in seclusion (people 'checked' me occasionally but not intrusively) invoking upon myself the two subsidiary deities whom for me, "pave the way" for the onset of Baphomet.

Anyone interested in a thread discussing the dynamics of possession practice?
 
 
petunia
10:08 / 23.05.06
Anyone interested in a thread discussing the dynamics of possession practice?

Very interested, yes :-)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:13 / 23.05.06
It appears that the magical/pagan/occult communities are less comfortable welcoming the outright BDSM tools than the inverse.

This is a rather thorny subject. As xk points out, mainstream occultists and especially pagans seem ill-disposed towards BDSM being brought into a ritual context. The criticisms I've seen seem to stem from a very basic misunderstanding of what BDSM is about. There's the objections that arise from a kind of prudishness ("But BDSM is just about sex! Our rituals are sacred--if we let BDSM into them, people will assume that we're only doing this for a cheap thrill"), and those that arise from an assumption that BDSM is about harming your body.

It appears to me that there's a current tendency amongst pagans of the Western recon variety to reject utterly any practice that is painful or tests ones endurance as stemming either of a supposedly Xtian desire to mortify the flesh ("Huh! If you need to punish your body, why don't you go just back to church?"), or the more secular self-abuse of the fad dieter and the emo cutter. A few months ago a pagan comm I post to was discussing the horrid horrid practice of bloodletting and someone was so revolted at the idea the ze compared it to pro-anorexia.

I accept that I may be hanging around with the wrong pagans. (In fact, I identify as heathen, but let's not even go there. Most mainstream heathens are less than accepting of any ordeal practices outside of labouring in the gym. Kink and filthy magics...? Ew ew ew.)

I wouldn't say that I practice BDSM magic as such, largely because I work solo and the dynamic is very different, but I can certainly relate to what xk says about sacred BDSM especially as it manifests on the Ordeal Path. Almost instinctively I use a lot of the toolkit I've aquired as a perv in my magical and spiritual practice. For me, BDSM offers a treasure-trove of useful gear. Pain as a tool; sensory deprivation; you name it. These kind of stimuli can be very useful, not just in achieving momentary ecstasis but in creating more sustained elevated states where minor miracles can occur. (I can't help noticing that every single other culture seems to have worked this out at some point while we're still getting our knickers in a twist over the mere idea.) Sometimes there is a sexual componant to this for me, sometimes not. Mostly not. Would be over-egging the pudding, usually. I'm limited somewhat in that I'm working solo; although I have a wonderful perv in my life, he's no really into the magics.

Another aspect of my BDSM experiencd that I'd be pretty lost without is the power-exchange. Raven Kaldera's description of Hel as his Dominatrix makes a lot of sense to me. I identify as predominatly Domme with a bit of switch, and I've found myself mining that streak of sub in my nature for all it's worth.

I'm a hard, or at least moderately firm, polytheist; work with/worship Entities rather than Archtypes. The experience of voluntarily submitting to another is pretty crucial when dealing with a lot of the Beings I work with. There seems to be a big assumption amongst most magicians and neopagans that the only respectable way to work with an entity is to yank Hir down into the sacred space, grab off a chunk and then banish with a kick up the arse and a hearty "Cheerio," while mainstream heathens tend to go for a Gods-are-my-buddies approach and dismiss anything more reverent as a hangover from Xtianity. I'm here to tell you that when you are doing direct-contact work with a crew like our friends in the North, this sort of thing really will not wash at all.

You can't treat them as equals because you're not dealing with equals. You are dealing with a living consciousness that is bigger, stronger, wiser, and frequently a damn sight meaner than you are, and you need to remember that at all time. You need to respond appropriately when ordered to do this, make that, go there, climb that hill, thread me a necklace, talk to this other Being, get me a glass of wine and while you're at it get one for My brother and make it snappy. That doesn't mean capitulating thoughtlessly, but you have to have some idea how to negotiate from a submissive position, sort out deals and compromises without being stubborn or bratty about it. The assumption that it's necessarily bad or wrong or negative to have Someone give you an instruction, make a demand, or place restictions on your life in anyway is also misguided. It can be an immensly enriching and empowering thing. (Not that I don't have crises and teenage strops when things get heavy, but no-one's perfect.)

When I talk about this stuff I often get told that I should simply ditch my Gods and go and work with another pantheon--as if I should be in charge, and the Gods should be subject unto me. I often wonder what these people are on, frankly. In most cases, if you're working with an entity it's because you chose to. (I'm aware that there are exceptions, but they're quite rare). You put yourself in this situation, opened the door, walked onto Their turf. Their gaff, Their rules. Try and throw your weight around and you're likely to get an object lesson in the meaning of Holy Terror.
 
  

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