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BDSM and Magic(k) (possibly not work safe)

  
  

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trouser the trouserian
13:50 / 23.05.06
Mordant, you've raised some worthwhile points. Here's some observations:

It appears that the magical/pagan/occult communities are less comfortable welcoming the outright BDSM tools than the inverse.

I think this is largely dependent on which pagan/occult communities you're hanging out in. From my experiences with people involved in the Queer pagan scene, Chaos magic practitioners (across Europe & the USA) and not forgetting TOPY in its heyday, I'd say that I've encountered (and continue to do so) and worked with a fair number of people who've incorporated a wide variety of BDSM-related practices into what they do. However, as with many 'specialised' practices, I doubt that one will easily encounter people seriously into this on general pagan internet fora.

Apropos how one conceives of one's relationship to deities - basically, how much agency one has in relation to a particular deity, I feel its instructive to look at how this is viewed in other cultures. I'm just reading a fascinating book At the the Feet of the Goddess: the Divine feminine in Local Hindu Religion by Lynn Foulston, which is based on her fieldwork in North & South India. Foulston found that, in attempting to understand the complex relationship between goddesses and their devotees, that devotees have significant influences on their goddesses in a number of ways. She discusses, for example, particular instances where devotees find the fierce disposition of a goddess alarming, and have used various strategies to effectively make the goddesses' character more benign. She also discusses an incident encountered in her fieldwork whereby a powerful "spirit-master" was alleged to have "damaged" the power of a local goddess. There are numerous mythological precendents for this - I mentioned the widow Gandhari cursing Krishna in the Mahabharata in the "Post-Modern magick by Seth" thread, for example. There's a recurrent scenario in Indian mythology whereby a human being or a "demon" - through the practice of tapas or austerities, gain enough power to effectively challenge the rule of the gods.
Foulston notes that the transaction between devotee and goddess is often a two-way process - that if a devotee carries out the worship stipulated by the goddess - he or she tends to expect a favourable result from her; and equally that if a devotee is helped by the goddess, the goddess will expect the devotee's vow (Foulston discusses firewalking and hook-swinging as two examples) to be fulfilled.
 
 
Ticker
14:18 / 23.05.06
Ah, this thread is kicking serious ass and I may settle right into it as my new home.
WOO PAGE 2!

Ok well to dig into it, I perceive reality as relational centric circles. It comes to me from studying Celtic bardic duties in the mythology about liminal space and navigating it. Keep in mind it is both physical and metaphysical, the ancient world experienced these events played out on the landscape much more than we do. (Sacred lakes/wells/ stone markers all of liminal up-down-inner-outer relationships.)

Center sphere is the self/Known, next wider is community/KnownOther, next is Unknown, and furtherest is Unknowable.

Crossing these boundaries requires knowledge of how to behave, the etiquette and taboos. We feel them everyday with other people personal lives for example, what to edit what to extend etc.

The ancients knew that there was power in crossing these lines with intent. The bard went to the Sidhe, the offering into the well, the mystic cross dressed, and the hermit into the wilderness etc. Transgression could be both sacred and/or profane depending on the very specific context. For example eating the flesh of one's totem animal could be a death taboo under some circumstance or a rebirth and identification.

Transgression lies at the heart of BDSM. Sometimes the established lines are not healthy, for example a man might feel he has to always be the stronger partner and through forced submission to a Domme learns to erode that line. I think it is very important as Mordant pointed out to recall that BDSM isn't always about pain. Sometimes it is just about power dynamics and other times it is just about a little icing of kink like not wearing panties to a fancy dinner party to tease your lover of 30 years.

BDSM teaches how to perceive these social lines and how to tweak them with our selves and others.

Sacred BDSM extends this to the wider map of the Unknown/Unknowable. The energy harvested from crossing lines can be seen in the chaos magic principles of breaking ones' self down using contrasting views until energy is released with old perceptions.

I've often thought that CM is one way of rewiring yourself and BDSM another.
 
 
Ticker
14:35 / 23.05.06
...about Gods as you bring them up Mordant...

I know I'm wired for the heavy world view, endurance, pain, and effort in my offerings and not everyone else is. Yet even knowing this I'm always surprised when people talk about their Gods in a tool kind of way rather than in a relationship format.

My Gods and ancestors are tangible personalities to me, rather than abstract concepts. In contrast to Archetypes, They often have very pronounced senses of humor or other differentiated moods.

I know my internal language is not identical to Theirs, such as when I might need more epic effort than they require of me and they just tolerate my silliness.

Raven pointed out to me that other people's Deities may not even understand my way of offering at all. He pointed out that a worshipper of Quan Yin probably would not have multiple incisions made on their back to create ritual gifts.

When I hang out with other pagans I'm always a bit perplexed by what they say their Deities ask of them. Sometimes I'm deeply troubled by the actions these folks attribute to the will of their Patrons. Can you image what those folks would think of my behavior with sacred BDSM?

I'm fairly certain my Gods would be most pleased if I bought a small farm in Ireland and raised Kerry cattle and spent my free time dancing and sexin' on the hillside. My need for Ordeals I do not directly relate to Them, but rather to my modern life and how I need to return to the place of being.

I need the Ordeals to create the awen, that state of inspired poetry when I can shift my being from the mundane to the profound regardless of where I am. I can do it with words alone but to move more than myself I need to grab people by the reptile brain and shift us together into the mythic context.
 
 
Ticker
14:43 / 23.05.06
trouser the trouserian

Have you ever read John Micheal Greer's 'A World Full of Gods'? It describes polytheism in its own right and many of the things you are detailing make sense in that light. Superb book on polytheism can't rave about it enough.

I also believe that if you're a queer pagan or a chaos practitioner , you've already learned how to move fluidity in your mixing of contexts. Our mainstream culture still reviles homosexuality enough that in order to embrace one's own, one must cross that line and so transgress.
As far as Chaos folk, transgression seems to be a major power source inherently.
 
 
Katherine
18:09 / 23.05.06
This is one of the reasons why I tend to leave the sex part at the door and just work with all the other bits. It's more like rewiring the house with the breakers flipped off then doing it with them on.

Just quoting a tad of your post there, although good points thoughout and plently to think about in it (and the rest of the thread to be honest!).

I would say it doesn't matter if there is direct sex involved or not within this type of work with BDSM, there are more risks involved full stop in my opinion. Which is why as a extra safety measure I worked with my partner on many other workings to make sure we both knew what each other working style was before progressing to use BDSM in a magical setting.

I will add more to this thread but I'm a bit rushed today, but big thank yous for the links, there is some great stuff I hadn't seen before!
 
 
Ticker
19:11 / 23.05.06
The more I mull it over (and plop it out here for all of us prod) the more I'm starting to think I leave the sex out because it represents the Big Transgression for me personally.

Coming from BDSM and paganism to the Ordeal Path I can point at a basic prudery in my nature (the spouse calls that aspect Hester.
I'm fine with other folks until the bits start getting inserted.
I know it sounds crazy that I can open my skin/soul to spill blood/madness, and open other people's, but a public display of 'hide the sausage' makes me run for the hills. It's that sitcom tension thing again.
Which is not to say my shared BDSM with other folks is not sexual, it can be very much so but not genitalia based.

Most of my BDSM playmates are not coming to me to get off, most of them want to go somewhere deep, dark, and very weird and get there and back again safely.
Sometimes that place is just basic trust with another human being and sometimes it is a circle of Hell.

So to boil my rabbling down a bit...I don't think it is about sex vs. no sex as much as it is each person identifying their particular taboos. I suspect the pure power of the Ordeal Path is in confronting these various boundaries however they manifest for the individual.

I'm also going to email Raven and ask permission to post more detailed stuff here for you folks as there seems to be genuine interest.
 
 
Ticker
13:21 / 25.05.06
...also I'm curious to hear about other folks' experiences. People have eluded to a lot but this maybe a great chance to talk shop.

If you have used facing fear, sexual power play, being humiliated, or enduring pain for magic this is the place to discuss it. to some extent even blood offering is appropriate to discuss in this thread I believe.

I'll clarify some details from an earlier post:

During sessions with my piercer (she's professionally trained) I have my back sliced open with sterile scalpels and pierced with sterile needles. I do this seated on my ritual black cow's hide. I silently focus in a prayerful manner on the physical pain associating it with either pain I have caused other people, or the animals I eat, or merely on offering my pain up as a form of appreciation to Those I love and serve.
My piercer will at my direction take tokens (sand dollars or the american 'gold' dollar coins) and wipe the blood spilling down my back onto the objects. Once dried I use these to create either talismans for my loved ones, to pay people/animals I have harmed/eaten or as gifts to my Gods or sacred places.

Please note as my piercer and I are not fluid bonded we treat my blood as a potential biohazard, use gloves, and responsible sharp collection containers. She does not put the tokens in contact with any open wounds. Before any other action, she cleans my back with alcohol wipes and makes every effort to maintain a contamination free environment. However, as I have stated elsewhere, we are not in a sterile environment and we recognize the inherent unsafe aspects of this work.

With the needles still in my back I will begin to gather up my pain and shape it (as I do while the cutting/piercing is happening). As my consciousness shifts I silently begin using narrative magic in the form of poetry or prose. I have used this energy to summon, to pray, and to align my Will.

The scars from these rituals are among my most cherished body modifications.

The below link is an image of my back during the ritual and contains a black and white photo that is a bit gory.

Link to Picture of Ritual

Blood Love

I don't want love
no soft sweetly whispered words of comfort and joy
no squeamish soft shielded warm fuzzy hell hole

Do you know what burns me from the inside out?
That I've tried with heart outstretched and a with the willingness to sacrifice

for nothing


I could not save him
I could not save him
I could not get him to see me
I could not get him to know me
I could not get him to hold me

Move and shift
Bring the blades (my tendered hearted cutting girl)
bring the blades and dress the edges
With fire and forgetfulness

Will I (when the blood runs free)
Will I know you
yet again
When the blood runs free

I will pray in the pool of my own pain
I will call out
as the steel slivers through my skin
I will see you burning there in the space left
where no one else
has stood

I will know you in the mirror reflection
of my own sickness
When the cool liquid spills
(cutting girl, keep your eyes on the moon)
When the cool ice leaves
the edges of my vision and my betrayed heart
shudders
When the blood pools I will remember you

Did you hold my chin in your hands the last time?
Did you lock eyes with me in the darkness?
Lend me your strength again, for mine is failing.
When the blood pools
I will remember you

I could not save him
I could not save him
I could not get him to see me
I could not get him to know me
I could not get him to hold me

You are pacing the edges there on the rim of the circle
pacing
You watch them through my eyes and know their clumsy attempts
Your sadness echos mine and yet still
Still you do not
(cutting girl, try the other side, and deeper yet again)
Will you not pluck this fruit from the tree?
Will you not take all that I have offered
Will you not at last
set me free
In the darkness the burn and sear of the fragile wings stretch
My teeth ache as your phantom touch slides along the glistening things
of tendon and bone
of feathers and scales and dreams
"Well made, my love."
The ghost of your pride sustains me
The unborn memory of mourning you
Will I always be so unmade?

Here in the slippery remains of steel and pain
I offer sacrifice again and again


I could not save him
I could not save him
I could not get him to see me
I could not get him to know me
I could not get him to hold me
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:52 / 25.05.06
At the moment I mostly use pain as a way of getting out of my regular headspace, shutting up the internal dialogue, and moving into a place where I'm ready to listen to the spirits and the Gods.

Aside from minor charj-t3h-sigil work using mild pain, I've only been doing this for about a year. During my first serious working with Loki I recieved a small runic brand on my right arm: three iterations of Gebo, done with the heated blade of my ritual dagger. The image just sort of popped into my head and I knew it needed to be realised. I still don't fully understand the significance of this; what I mostly get off it is an almost dizzying sense of connection to something vast and beyond my comprehension. The marks make me feel like a gate--a way in. Three little sets of crossroadses.

They'd pretty much faded to nothing but this Spring, in the weeks leading up to the anniversary of that first working, I was encouraged to work on them again. It was heavy going but the act of marking them out, having to keep control of the heated knife in the face of a reflexive need to pull it away in order to create accurate lines, was very powerful. Every time I worked on them, that sense of connectedness got stronger. I've also found that the branding seemed to have an initiatory element, in that it opened the way to the fire/heat resistance work I mentioned over here.

They'll probably need a couple more goes to make sure they don't fade again, which I'm not looking forward to. I'm not very good with pain and I don't 'like' the brand in the sense of it being something I feel comfortable displaying. But it's significant, and this gives it beauty in my eyes.
 
 
Ticker
18:14 / 25.05.06
Mordantthat's a great detail, the being able to work with the heat.
Do you have any idea what allowed you to do it in particular?

Can you say what about the brands (process/artifact) brings you into greater contact with your Influences?

On the subject of beauty, originally I was quite hesitant to allow people to see my scars not wanting to get sucked into discussion about self mutilation etc. I have a lot of ink but cuttings/scars are still not widely accepted as bod mod.

There is something to be said for what is public and what is private. I tend to share details after the fact if I believe the information can be beneficial to others.
There is power in both secrecy and revelation.

.
 
 
Ticker
18:26 / 25.05.06
To clarify my questions of you Mordant....

Do you have a sense of if it was the act of branding or the brand that formed the connection/gateway? Why does the reworking of the brand cause the connection to feel stronger? (I realize you might not know...but I gotta ask.)

Is there a tradition of branding associated with Loki? I suspect He must have His own relationship with pain considering the serpent's venom.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:21 / 25.05.06
Do you have a sense of if it was the act of branding or the brand that formed the connection/gateway? Why does the reworking of the brand cause the connection to feel stronger? (I realize you might not know...but I gotta ask.)

I don't have a clear picture of that yet. The brand was recieved under instruction from Loki, a God who is heavily associated with fire: so working with closely with fire brings me closer to my God, and my God brings me closer to the fire.

Is there a tradition of branding associated with Loki? I suspect He must have His own relationship with pain considering the serpent's venom.

There isn't really much of a tradition of anything associated with Loki. (There's a considerable amount of dispute as to whether He was ever worshipped back in the day or even if He can properly be called a God, but I won't get into that here.) I've had Loki's men and women lose it completely at the mere suggestion that their loveable prankster of a God could ever be involved with something so orrible as branding; I've had others respond with anecdotes about His putting them through similar or even worse trials. I believe them all. There's no right answer.

In lore, Loki is indeed associated with suffering, sometimes as a result of His own mischief but often for a greater good. There's the whole snake thing, like you say; prior to that we see Him get dragged through the pricker-bushes by an eagle, tie the beard of a goat to His bollocks and play tug-of-war to amuse Skadhi, get locked in a box and starved for three months, get His lips stitched together by an irate Dwarf, and giving birth to an eight-legged horse can't exactly have been a walk in the park either. So yeah, suffering: check.

But this suffering in lore almost always seems to relate to the role in which I mostly relate to Him: that of a messenger, a go-between, someone who can move between worlds to bring back treasures and wisdom. I believe the brand is connected to that. An act of suffering which deepens my connection with the God and facilitates my taking on that messenger role somewhat as a spirit-worker.

It also seems that either through the symbolism of the runes used or the act of branding itself, or both, I've gained access to a kind of altered state. Most of the time I burn like everyone else, but once I'm in that state I can not just resist pain, but actually resist damage too. It takes a while to get into, long periods of prayer whilst playing with hot things and dancing, rocking, overbreathing ect., but once I'm there I notice I can do stuff I can't normally do. Still very new at all this--I don't know what the limits are, how far I can take it, or even what it's actually for.
 
 
Ticker
02:27 / 26.05.06
Mordant

how important is the for part?
If you are doing the branding to grow closer to your God...was the heat/flame resistent reaction a sought after reaction? I'm not sure from the post in the thread and the LWICD thread if it was an intentional goal or a side effect of the bond.

With regard to the range of Loki's followers, do you have the sense that those that were put through similar trials already had an understanding of the use of pain? I ask this in contrast to those you mention would be/are horrified of the suggestion of the God asking/requiring this.

For myself I suspect that while my Gods require acts of bravery and trust, They may not specificly require the detailed rites I perform. Though it sounds as if you were instrusted specificly to do the branding...or is inspired a better term for it?

I'm wondering how much of the mechanical doing part is a product of the translation of the Divine request/order through what we have to hand versus a directed and specific task.

So that while the Divine source maybe the same as our ancestors experienced our interpretation and resulting action maybe different. Thus the ancients might not have done branding of the rune as they may have had another conduit.

What you think?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:55 / 26.05.06
If you are doing the branding to grow closer to your God...was the heat/flame resistent reaction a sought after reaction?

Side-effect. I got pushed towards working with heat, trying to endure it as a devotional act, and the fire-resistance seemed to come out of that.

With regard to the range of Loki's followers, do you have the sense that those that were put through similar trials already had an understanding of the use of pain?

I think so, yeah, although of course this is a bit of a generalisation. They also seem to be people with more experience of ritual generally. The people who respond negatively tend to be quite anti-ritual, unless it's kept very informal and loose.

while my Gods require acts of bravery and trust, They may not specificly require the detailed rites I perform. Though it sounds as if you were instrusted specificly to do the branding...or is inspired a better term for it?

The branding was very specific. Which runes, where, and how--very clear. When the time came to freshen the marks up, that was very clear too, and the instruction came with a fair old bit of OCD-flavoured poking to get it done now. This happens a lot during the heat-resistance work too, very clear instructions as to which tool should be used next, where and how.

I've had similarly detailed instructions from other Gods, usually items to be made or favoured offerings. Other times, things are more fluid: it's clear that something is required, but I've got more freedom in choosing what I give.

while the Divine source maybe the same as our ancestors experienced our interpretation and resulting action maybe different. Thus the ancients might not have done branding of the rune as they may have had another conduit.

I think that's probably very true. We don't actually know much about what witches and magicians actually got up to back in the day; the exact details of magical practice are lost. It seems clear though that various ecstatic practices were familiar to pre-Christian heathens. There are references in lore to the Berserkers using painful stimuli to work themselves up into a frenzy during which they were not suceptible to harm in the normal way, but we don't know much about them either. (The Berserkers were Odin's men, and nothing to do with Loki; however the two Gods have a great deal in common.)

I don't know if people would have practiced branding in a ritual context, but they certainly practiced tattooing and there is some evidence that this was used for magical purposes.
 
 
Ticker
13:35 / 26.05.06
Over in one of the CM threads it was mentioned that many modern practitioners are re-inventing the wheel when some valuable work has been done within living memory. Also there is has been a lot of discussion regarding the essential nature of secrecy in these rituals.

Taking these view points and applying them to what we are talking about here (being extreme techniques used to alter the consciousness etc) I'm curious what people think are the dangerous aspects of our topic. What should we discuss, and what should we not?

For myself I am a proponent of discussing the mechanics regarding both the physical and the spiritual. It seems incredibly dangerous to do this work without a community to both offer advice and to serve as a sounding board.

The nuance of the secrecy ideal seems to be walking the line between sharing useful information and withholding the core personal experience. This appears to be advocated as not to rob the individual practitioner of the numen of the event and splay their holy interaction under the glare of rude inspection. I find that I agree with the intent, to keep what cannot easily be transfered through the medium of the internet from being mangled and misinterpreted. However I find that there are some of us that can offer both sound advice and necessary examples by discussing these things as openly as possible.

Raven Kaldera stated something at the training session which I believe to be key to this issue. To paraphrase, he made it very clear that if someone is drawn to undergoing an Ordeal they will find a way whether or not you agree to assist them. There is always the chance that if you do not guide someone through it as safely as possible they may attempt the event on their own or with someone not as invested in their well being. That said, as an Ordeal Master you will most likely turn away some folks for various reasons.

I myself will not work with anyone who cannot walk me through their reasons for wanting an Ordeal (as best they can) with utmost honesty. Nor will I work with someone if my divination indicates I should not.
Perhaps it is an issue of being in service to a community or truly a solo?

What we are discussing runs contrary to modern mental health advocates' party line. We of the Ordeal Path say it can be beneficial to place one's self in harms way, whether it be mental, emotional, physical, or spiritual or a combination.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:13 / 26.05.06
I don't mind talking about the general outline of the work, and I certainly think it's good to have a full and open exploration of the risks involved. There are a lot of things that I personally would not talk about, though--too heavy, too personal, to be shared. Nobody's business but mine.

he made it very clear that if someone is drawn to undergoing an Ordeal they will find a way whether or not you agree to assist them.

Probably very true. This stuff seems to have its own momentum, it picks you up and carries you along with it. You've got to be careful to pace yourself and not lose sight of the fact that yeah, you may be reaching new heights of trancendence or union with the Divine blahdy blah blah, but you're still a squishy and easily breakable human animal.
 
 
Ticker
16:44 / 26.05.06
right. I agree.

There are a lot of things that I personally would not talk about, though--too heavy, too personal, to be shared. Nobody's business but mine.

I also agree with this that there are some aspects you do not flap about. Yet I'm wondering if we can slap a tag on what these aspects are.

To clarify:
It's all great and wonderful to say "I'm not telling you things because they're mysteries" and something far more useful to say "I'm not telling you because it is too personal and I don't believe you need to know it to understand this other thing I'm trying to communicate." I've heard both in the CM threads and the latter seems more productive.

I do however understand the power of Mystery as it pertains to initation and why some folk take vows of silence. Rather than contesting that, I think we need to work around it for the sake of assisting others.

Onto the land of interesting stuff....

I received a reply from Raven that appears to indicate that I can share stuff from my training in terms of magical associations with the Ordeals. I
ll post 'em up when I can get to my notes so things are as accurrate as possible.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:15 / 26.05.06
I just wanted to say how excellent this thread is and to say thank you to all the people contributing to it.

One of the things I really like about the Temple is that you are all people (who appear to be) confident about opening up and discussing relevant personal experience. For people like me who are not, these kind of threads are really inspiring, not in the least because they discuss things we are involved in and with and feel strongly about, but feel unable to discuss outside of a very tiny circle, usually just with a partner.
 
 
Ticker
02:38 / 27.05.06
Thank you Lula!

It's great to know it's helpful rather than just taking up space. I'm having a grand time talking to Mordant but I'm delighted that other people are checking in.

Is there any aspect in particular you would like this thread to poke with a stick next?
 
 
beautifultoxin
10:15 / 27.05.06
I'm loving this thread, too --

The Raven mentioned, that's Raven Kaldera, yes? Good people.

I need more time to really digest before I write any, but are any of you familiar w/ Cleo Dubois & Fakir Musafar's work together? I've been working with them for two years now, and though I've learned their take on SM as bodyplay goes way more into SM than I do, I truly respect what they've brought of ritual and mythos into the larger SM community.

On deep SM, it's just I'm more of a Dominant Queen (Cleo's archetypal analysis of me and my style), who would hurt your head and psyche with a whisper and a carress, rather than whip or pierce you, so I don't so much connect with the more intense body ritual aspects of SM magic. D/s magic, on the other hand... I did an interview w/ Graydancer of Rope Weekly a few months back trying to tease out the differences between SM magic and D/s magic -- it's here -- and I'm still not resolved on that. In my private play (I was a pro domme for three years, but in the SM scene for over ten now), I play much more with primal, non-dualistic, shamelessly switchy & animalistic scenes -- definitely tapping into something that the heavier SM play takes me to, but way more freeform. What I want to explore is the magic of protocol, of the old leather guard, of training and posture and gesture and voice. It's very CM, I suppose. But it speaks to the Queen/Priestess in me.
 
 
beautifultoxin
10:36 / 27.05.06
xk, I'm also envious that you got to work intensely with Raven. Are you East Coast-based?

I only ask re: the question of SM acceptance among Pagans, and magical acceptance in the SM community. I lived for 25 years in New England, came out into the Boston leather scene (what there was, was actually quite pleasant in the mid-90's), and found that the split between magical practitioners & the kink scene was much more pronounced there -- with the exception of Western MA (Raven's turf, and westward), where all the Pagans, Thelemites, Chaos folks, and witches *were* the leather community.

Now in San Francisco, a sincere spirituality runs close to the surface of the leather community -- just as one example which you are likely already aware of, the Radical Faeries early on birthed the Black Leather Wings, the queer men's and allies/family SM magical tribe. What I'm feeling here is that what gave me pause in Pagan community on the East Coast about ten years ago -- a sort of breezy electicism bordering on cultural misappropriation carried out by white magical practitioners that eventually gave way, I think due to the strong anti-racist academic community, to more culturally contextual work -- is really taken as the norm in a lot of "leather magic" on the West Coast. It may just be that there's way more people here practicing far more divergent sorts of magical & spiritual practice, or it may just be that Californians are particularly bad about this sort of thing.

Did I ever think I'd be the old crank complaining to her companion at a play party, "Goddamnit, if that naked blue-painted full-breasted transwoman randomly invokes Yemaja while she's getting spanked next to the Celtic bonfire one more time without any sense to it, we're going home to fuck instead"? Is that really a problem one should call a problem? I don't know. All I know is that the more I practiced SM within the context of ritual work, the less inclined I was to seek it out in the context of "community," and the choosier I got about who I shared it with.

I would kill for a close training group, like the one I stumbled into by accident back in New England, and of course, I eagerly await Raven's book. Can you keep us posted on your future training, and maybe if Raven is traveling?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
16:33 / 27.05.06
This is a great thread, and I'm enjoying the candidness of all the shoptalk. Raven Kaldera's workshops look amazing. Going off to read that article now...

When I used to actually do proper magic work, I almost always accessed the meditative state needed via BDSM. Sometimes I worked alone and sometimes I worked with another person. The workings alone were pretty powerful. I thought it was best to work with folk I knew would appreciate BDSM offerings/summonings. This was when I'd just started reading Phil Hine, and what I did was very, very DIY/amateurish. So, Bill Burroughs and Kathy Acker. In my bedroom. I'm still not sure whether I actually summoned something external or if I was using idea-forms to access that energy in myself, but it worked. Intense stuff happened, then and afterwards. At around the same time I worked a sigil into a BDSM porn story. That also worked beautifully: the events in the story came true in meta, but better than I could have imagined in the story. The workings with other people -- which have involved blood-letting, mostly -- are not things I can really talk about here, but each time involved working with transformative power in a beautiful way.

It's been a while since I did any work like that, and a while since I did BDSM stuff with an intent to transform myself or someone else, rather than just ease on out of the world for a while. When I did that work, I was never grounded, emotionally honest or fearless enough to look the power in the eye and take it on, take on the responsibility as well as the incredible kick. It came back to bit me on the ass. Since then, I've learnt that if I can't be grounded and honest, I shouldn't dabble. Unfortunately that's meant I stopped dabbling rather than learnt it for real.
 
 
Ticker
18:09 / 27.05.06
beautifultoxin

Yup, that Raven Kaldera. Can't rave about him as a person or a teacher enough.

One of my bestest pals evah went to a training/fest thingy with Fakir Musafar and I'm not sure if Cleo Dubois was there or not....Lot's of sacred body work and much of it in the arena of sexuality as well. Thanks for the links!

When I work with others I tend to use the ol' charisma/aura to roll 'em deep and roll 'em hard. I know what you mean by 'whisper and caress'. Being a scary mofo doesn't require props and gore, and terror has a wide wide range. I don't think the Sacred BDSM has to involve body mod at all, or even physical contact. I think it is about working with the bowel-releasing fear and spine straightening courage so often left out of 'safer' paths.


I'm up in 'Mouth...Portsmouth NH. I went to college in Boston and found the scene to be a bit too drama/ego drenched at the time to really feel comfortable. The lack of magical dialogue was not as much of as problem for me as the lack of dialogue regarding responsibilty.

There is something about blending ritual and raw primal transgression that directly hooks me up with the Divine. Raven asked me once why I was drawn to do this work, was it service or pleasure, and after a good hard think I responded that it is the place I manifest completely. There is something monsterous in me and the only place I can allow my complete manifestation is in the sacred horror in service to something. I'm not going to claim my Gods truly need another madwoman, but I do believe in my play/work I bring forth something useful into this world out of my own abyss.


What you so wonderfully describe as 'being the old crank' tends to have been a long personal issue of mine. The slap happy mixing of systems is one thing, the disregard for the power and consquences of doing so drives me up a wall. I'm such a caneshaker I can rarely attend group events because they make me cranky.

Why I get overwrought about disrespect is a fairly easy question. I have all the hard wiring of the old priest class. Problem is, as much as it grates on me, almost everyone is having to re invent new paths. I suspect my use of tools offends others and may even be utterly wrong if my traditon was not mostly eradicated.

I still get cross eyed reading fluffy neopagan descriptions of my Deities (though in truth they are usually only about Her and not Him). Love Goddess, my lily white ass.

...but I do recognise my prejudices at work here.

for direct Raven Kaldera news nothing beats:

Cauldron Farm
 
 
Ticker
18:18 / 27.05.06
Mister Disco

The sigil in the porn, was the whole story a hyper sigil or was it artwork? I found working with erotica I unintentionally created a hyper sigil. Surprised the hell out of me.

Did you read Raven's take on his Patron being his Domme?
I think there is a lot to be said for building compassion and humilty (as well as grounding) directly into this work.

I'd encourage you to figure out if you can start exploring it again and as you say, learn it for real. It seems to me that you had a lot of experiences that indicated something was working. Magical work often spirals and you find yourself returning to an old task or form but with a new perspective.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:29 / 27.05.06
(Couple of quick links which I think are relevant to this discussion: the classic Body Alchemy, and The Sight of Blood which deals with voluntary and involuntary bloodletting.)
 
 
Ticker
18:44 / 27.05.06
*snatches up the linkies and scampers off giggling*

Thank ya Mordant!
 
 
Ticker
02:13 / 28.05.06
Mordant those links were killah.Thank ye. I'm wondering if they deserve bumps or if I should just weave some of the topics into this thread....

As far as safe blood letting goes the diabetic lancets are fabulous and sterile. Raven suggested them to me and I have to say they have made things a bit easier.

Knives tend to get bloodthirsty after a while and under certain conditions I'm not too sure an edged item makes the most sense. I've had friends 'accidentally' sharpen my ritual knife as a favor before a performance and instead of a cat scratch ended up with a deep incision and an impressive plop of blood. then 10 steches. Woo.

I was 'claimed/tapped/adopted' while trying to open a wine bottle in the Lios. Having been on pilgramage for two weeks and opening many offerings of wine the proper way (tip of corkscrew to remove foil) I am pretty confident in my interpretation of the sudden complusion to use the knife to remove foil and thus a goodly chunk of fingerflesh. Standing slack jawed as a fine spray of my blood misted over the altar stone, I could only think "Oh Fuck".

It was only later that I got the joke when my dear dad called me laughing hysterically after he had found the critical research on the Lios.(that ain't me in the picture.)


When working with ancient Deities I believe we need to reconsider the role of blood. Many of Them were used to receiving all kinds of offerings including the big D. Makes a diabetic lancet seem like a fabulous compromise if you ask me.

I also really liked the whole aspect of dance as part of the body experience. I'm learning belly dance so I can do more than just fling my big booted ass around. Plus I'm 95% certain that I have been instructed to dance with the other womenfolk as it is Pleasing.

In regard to why the surge in bod mod and why the primal acts in ritual I think so much of the heady modern CM and sanitized religion stopped feeding people. Don't get me wrong I have a high regard for vital CM and dynamic religion but you can see very clearly when the play has been running for too long.

Returning to a place of Mystery, of the sacred profane, being fully present in the moment, of finding your own core truth, all of these things have been and are tools for communing.

I'd like to poke possession/horsing/Archetypal Topping next with this thread if y'all are interested?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:53 / 28.05.06
The sigil in the porn, was the whole story a hyper sigil or was it artwork?

The whole story was a hypersigil. I didn't design it in a really micrological way, just used the writing to put myself in another place, kind of intentionally unintentional. The results surprised me, too.

I'm pretty sure I'll return to proper working at some stage when I'm grown up enough to be more responsible. And in a way, I have kinda been working magic since -- but in the sense of transitioning gender, physically/emotionally. That doesn't leave a whole lot of energy free for other stuff.

And yeah, stuff on topping, horsing, possession etc - go for it!!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:12 / 28.05.06
Thirding the possession/horsing ect thread.
 
 
Ticker
14:20 / 28.05.06
I'm thinking it should be its own thread so other folks join in the discussion. Also we can keep this one a bit more focused.

Thinking of that...

Today I was thinking about why I go in for the intense jolt approach to body based work sometimes. It occurred to me that my daily life does not resemble that of my ancestors except when I go directly to the universal actions. Dancing, bod mod, walking, food prep and storytelling.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:39 / 28.05.06
Getting back to some of the points trouser raised upthread:

It appears that the magical/pagan/occult communities are less comfortable welcoming the outright BDSM tools than the inverse. -- me.

I think this is largely dependent on which pagan/occult communities you're hanging out in...as with many 'specialised' practices, I doubt that one will easily encounter people seriously into this on general pagan internet fora.

This is depressingly true. I've only found one or two communities online that discuss this kind of thing in a meaningful way. General pagan comms tend to be very vanilla and often alarmingly strait-laced. (Partly I've limited my own access to more appropriate communities by working almost completely solo, something I'm trying to rectify).

Apropos how one conceives of one's relationship to deities - basically, how much agency one has in relation to a particular deity, I feel its instructive to look at how this is viewed in other cultures.

Making inroads into this, although I've only just started reading about Hindu religious beliefs in a serious way. Previously I've been looking more towards northern-European sources, although obviously my reading in that direction is still very sketchy. It would be interesting to hear more, if you have the time.
 
 
Ticker
18:53 / 08.06.06
On another thread Evski G says: (regarding Liber Jugorum exercises)
Of course, as repeatedly noted in this forum, substitute snapping a rubber band on your wrist (or biting your thumb) for the razor.

I wanted to ask in the context of this BDSM magic thread, when do you (the BDSM magic user) decide to go for the rubberband and when for the razor?

I recognise the wisdom for general use purposes why Evski G and other folks point people this way, I'm not being critical of them. Rather I'm asking the folks who regularly go in for the *messy* stuff when they feel it is called for and when it is not.
 
 
EvskiG
21:07 / 08.06.06
Interesting question.

Seems to me it's a matter of tools and goals.

My philosophy is "don't overdo it." For Liber Jugorum, for example, I would say that a rubber band is a sufficient tool to accomplish the goals of the exercise: to (i) make you aware of your lapses and (ii) encourage you to be more vigilant in the future. Don't use a razor blade when a rubber band is enough.

But if you're into practices that involve BDSM/bloodplay/etc. as (i) a deliberate, conscious technique for (ii) accomplishing goals that can't be accomplished without that technique (or that you prefer to accomplish with the technique), and (iii) you've got the skill and experience (or the intelligent supervision) to keep from fucking things up for yourself or others, then break out the skewers, turpentine, and lime Jell-O.

Of course, while that sort of thing isn't my schtick, I understand that beginners and the overly enthusiastic stand a real risk of fucking things up and hurting themselves. I'd always err on the side of caution.

(Playing with knives can be dangerous, kids!)
 
 
Ticker
12:00 / 09.06.06
That seems very reasonable and common sense oriented.

Was there a reason when the Liber Jugorum was first constructed that the razor was the appropriate choice? I understand from reading the link to to the ritual exercise why the alternatives seem acceptable, but was there a thought out reason for the razor? (or just a lack of rubber-band awareness?)

For quick blood drawing safely, I'm a huge fan of the diabetic lancets. It is slightly more of an effort than the rubber band snapping but much more safe than ye olde sharp thing. Perhaps the sharp needle jab can impart the same level of unease as the razor without the potential serious hazard? For those who need more than just the mild pain of the other safe options?

Higher up this thread I believe we discussed the issue of ritual tools becoming too blood thirsty or if and when 'accidents' can happen to even the most experienced. I am certainly on the side of caution, but I wonder if the dread/fear of the razor is properly represented with a rubber band?
 
 
illmatic
12:32 / 09.06.06
Was there a reason when the Liber Jugorum was first constructed that the razor was the appropriate choice?

Yes, A simple one. Crowley was a fucking arsehole. I'll elaborate if you wish, but that's all you need to know. (See Regardie's comments at length on his repressed sadism in his biography) Crowley's work is riven with the Protestant work ethic and tough, horrible, self-punishing routines etc. He's got a lot to answer for in my book.
 
 
Ticker
13:15 / 09.06.06
Illmatic, I think your response brings up a really vital issue in terms of magical practice and power dynamics/use of pain/punishment. Are people really investigating the reasoning behind certain practices? Are they able to perceive the kinds of stuff you're talking about?

I have a lot of language and tools to explore my intent coming from a sacred BDSM perspective. I also know when I need a sounding board for more extreme stuff. Knowing when sadism and punishment is really appropriate and when it needs to be booted is a complex issue. I suspect there are a lot of solo people out there struggling with how to figure this out.
 
  

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