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Do you believe in God?

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
18:05 / 03.12.04
Sekhmet, who woke up in Universe B: In this particular universe, can you point out where I have said 'I am an atheist'?
 
 
Sekhmet
18:07 / 03.12.04
Actually, I was about to post a revision. You haven't said that explicitly, you've merely been arguing from an apparently atheist viewpoint.

My apologies, I retract the statement.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:08 / 03.12.04
I neither believe nor disbelieve in God, the question itself is utterly irrelevant to me.

But that's the question this thread is intended to address.

If you want to start a "Religion: Actively Horrible, or Merely Useless?" thread of your own, feel free.

kthxbye.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
18:11 / 03.12.04
I have to go, its the weekend! No webnet connection at home at the mo...

Anyway, if I'm derailing the thread, apologies. It seems reasonable to me to explore discussing the effects of belief in God in society at large, the people who believe in God and the organisations they found due to their belief in God, and the manner in which they interrelate and impact on those around them in a thread about belief in God. Otherwise we are left with a thread constituting claims of 'Me!' and 'Not me!', with handy little 'because...' clauses for added interest.

Back Monday, you crazy cats! Don't do anything I wouldn't do!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
18:14 / 03.12.04
OK Jack, now yer impingin' on my beer time!

It's a fair cop! Why am I even posting then?

Until now, I had nothing better to do whatsoever!

TTFN! Have a good one yourself.
 
 
Sekhmet
18:25 / 03.12.04
Otherwise we are left with a thread constituting claims of 'Me!' and 'Not me!', with handy little 'because...' clauses for added interest.

Oddly, I think that's precisely what Ganesh had in mind, but now we've all gone and turned it into a Head Shop theory thread anyway. Bother.
 
 
HCE
19:14 / 03.12.04
If I've been tricked into posting in a Head Shop thread I'm going to be American pissed.
 
 
Sekhmet
19:43 / 03.12.04
Toss off a couple of pints and you can be multiculturally pissed.
 
 
alas
20:16 / 03.12.04
Even better, encourage a loved one to urinate on you while you are drunk and angry, and you can be pissed, pissed on, and pissed off.
 
 
grant
20:49 / 03.12.04
Two lines from Jack Fear:
Barking up the wrong tree, there, Lurid, cos I do believe in Santa Claus.

Same for me. Only I don’t think he’s an old man with a white beard anymore. (Sound familiar?)

the implication that the atheist has knowledge (gnosis) that the rest of us, poor bastards that we are, don't.

Technically (and maybe pedantically, maybe more relevant than one might expect), the kind of knowledge gnosis is isn’t the kind of knowledge (stereotypical) atheists have, I don’t think. Greek had two* words that can be translated as “knowledge” -- gnosis and eidenai. The first, gnosis is a kind of personal insight or familiar self-knowledge. In a way, it refers to information based on observations of the process of observing, but it also has a metaphysical connotation. Folk knowledge, maybe. Eidenai is knowledge based on logic, the kind of thing you’d get from reading a map or doing an equation.

More on that distinction here.

*more than two, really, but I believe most fall roughly into the two senses that I’m using here. There’s an opposition between episteme and gnosis, too, that might be being recapitulated in this discussion. I’m not sure.

One line from Money $hot: Every war waged in the 20th century has seen both sides claiming to have God on their side…

At the risk of retreading old ground, uh, no. In a couple border disputes between Stalin and Mao, neither side claimed to have God on its side. The “other” superpower in the 20th century was ostensibly an atheist one. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Angola… Heck I’m not even sure Axis Japan believed in God as such. They all believed in progress towards a goal that could be seen as transcendent. I’m not sure that’s exactly the same thing. A better tomorrow =! A universal intelligence.
 
 
iconoplast
04:45 / 04.12.04
Without defending or defaming it, I'd like to avoid arguing the merits of organized religion. Such a discussion is (a) a separate question, and (b) one that has a lot of data to support the various positions, meaning the thread's going to have lots of footnotes and required reading bits, and not a lot of people sharing what they believe.

Ganesh asked us what we believed. And "I believe Religion is bad" is a belief, sure - but I don't think it's the one that Ganesh was asking about.

Anyway.

Assuming one begins at a default position of Agnosticism (Or a watered down form, where instead of 'it is impossible to know if God exists,' one merely believes at first that 'I don't know if God exists'), and then moves in one of two directions - either 'A God of some kind exists' or 'No God of any knd exists' - this is oversimplifying things a lot, and people move in varying directions between those positions - but if the two moves afforded us are from 'I don't know' to 'I think so' or 'I think not,' then what would encourage a move along 'I think not'?

I find a move along the 'I think so' to be worthwhile both pragmatically and empirically - I've had experiences which led me to believe, and I think it's useful to believe.

What are the advantages of going the other way?
 
 
Cherielabombe
08:02 / 04.12.04
It's really interesting to me just how passionate these theology debates can get, and I think that is a testament to just how strong our desire (need?) to organize the universe in some way actually is.

I was raised in a very strict Catholic household and though I have rejected Catholicism and Christianity, I still have a lot of affection for some of the trappings of Catholicism, like the saints and the incense and the miracles. But no love for the Catholic Church as it is day, and of course, based on the recent election results I'm still really fucking pissed off with the fundamentalist Christians who chose the "Moral" (ha ha ha) option. Still though, undoubtedly because of my background, spirtuality is important to me, and something I have thought a lot about.

In my opinion, you can neither prove nor disprove that god exists. In any case I think you are making a leap when you decide that based on this, there is no god, or based on this I don't care I just believe there's a god. It is that "I just believe" that to me is the definition of "faith."

I am not 100% convinced that god exists, but I believe in her, and I definitely pray, because I believe in prayer. I believe that prayer is a kind of magic (which I also am not 100% convinced about) and I think prayer, like magic, and like many rituals works for you if you believe in it. And yes I find it hard to look around the world and not see evidence of the divine EVERYWHERE (though I am aware on can look at the world and very easily argue the opposite point of view). But as, Gypsy Lantern so eloquently wrote one can see God in humans, in the trees in music etc.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
09:34 / 04.12.04
...but if the two moves afforded us are from 'I don't know' to 'I think so' or 'I think not,' then what would encourage a move along 'I think not'?

Possibly humankind's rather depressing tendency to stop thinking when in the presence of authority is reason enough to avoid assuming authority exists, given the choice. Really, there's a lot of shadenfreude to be had in the extent to which beliefs tend to trivialise the creation in order to revere the creator.

Me, I park my ass firmly on the fence of convenience. I feel more comfortable with the idea that there is a perspective to existence to which all this makes sense, and has value. That perspective, vague though it is, is my God. But that perspective, in turn, justifies my own self-determination. My God wants me to want to be myself, leaving me free to, among other things, choose my own beliefs. Alright, getting dizzy now...

-hah- I actually take the absence of substantial evidence of divine existence as justification for my beliefs, since any evidence of a superior being would instantly throttle any free will, leaving this universe as nothing more than an intricate machine. No deus, ex or otherwise.
 
 
Spaniel
10:16 / 04.12.04
I'd just like to apologise for contributing to the thread derailment.

Onwards...
 
 
alas
12:20 / 04.12.04
Assuming one begins at a default position of Agnosticism

I realize you did in fact qualify this statement by saying it was oversimplified, but I guess I'm just still uncomfortable with this assumption, because it is so de-historicized. Western society did not begin in this default position; arguably you could be saying so in relation to a kind of ahistorical, "objective" logic, but I'm very distrustful of such moves. The attempt to discuss religion as if it can be discussed without reference to history is, to me, well, naive. We can't use the word 'God' without invoking a whole history of belief and several narratives of belief--perhaps the most important of which is monotheism. Agnosticism is not an ideologically-free starting point in this cultural context. [And this was especially implied in (someone else's?) earlier post which declared agnosticism is the only position that requires no defense.] I just can't accept that it's a simple default position, nor that it is "natural."
 
 
sleazenation
12:34 / 04.12.04
As I think this thread already indicates, much of the question in belief in 'god' is rests on what definition of god is being used. And then there is the not unrelated question of major organized religion...
 
 
Ganesh
12:40 / 04.12.04
On agnosticism:

I just can't accept that it's a simple default position, nor that it is "natural."

I think I agree with this. We don't grow up in a cultural vacuum, and it seems to me that people more typically move into agnosticism from other positions. In my own case, I started off, as a child, with a sort of apathetic Church of Scotland Christianity (the result of not-especially-religious parents paying lip-service to the nagging of rather-more-religious grandparents) - that was my default. Well before adolescence, I'd decided God didn't exist. Through my late teens and twenties, I've gradually shaded into agnosticism. It feels "natural" in the sense of being the most intellectually (and, actually, emotionally) honest worldview - but not in the (I think) implied sense of representing a sort of clean sheet, a pristine absence of other beliefs.
 
 
Ganesh
12:43 / 04.12.04
As I think this thread already indicates, much of the question in belief in 'god' is rests on what definition of god is being used.

And also, in some cases, on what definition of 'evidence' is being used.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:33 / 04.12.04
I've gradually shaded into agnosticism. It feels "natural" in the sense of being the most intellectually (and, actually, emotionally) honest worldview

Can you expand on that, Ganesh? I'm interested at how you arrive at that point, intellectually rather than emotionally, since I think I underdstand the latter better.
 
 
40%
02:42 / 05.12.04
I find myself moving easily between answering “of course” and “of course not”. I was brought up a Christian and maintained that belief for many years, but recently decided to be unaffiliated, as my involvement with religion was not benefiting me or anyone else. To me, that seems natural, and I certainly think it’s better to profess no knowledge than to profess knowledge that you are uncertain of. And I agree with Smoothly in that I don’t believe a lot of people when they say that they believe in God. What we believe is demonstrated by our actions, nothing more, nothing less.

I was thinking about God earlier today actually, and I had a moment where I felt that yes, of course I believe in God, and more specifically, yes of course I believe in an afterlife. I write music, a lot of which explores me experience of religion and my ideas about myself and where I fit in the scheme of things. And I remembered today a song I wrote which clearly to me expressed a belief in something better to come after death. And the question I had to ask myself was “does this song still resonate with me?” And I think it did/does to a great extent. Equally though I have songs that express the feeling that there is nothing after death, and I’m not sure which are truer to my world view, but I know which I prefer.

When I’m thinking “of course I believe in God”, it is based on an extrapolation of the meaning and beauty and order that I see in the world. It’s based on the feeling that these things could not have come about by accident, and that they could not be just isolated occurences. I feel that there has to be a pattern to it all, a greater purpose. And for me, that’s what belief in God is about. Not that I believe life is meaningless without God, but it’s certainly harder to find meaning without Him. In the moments when I believe in God, I certainly feel a lot more purposeful. And that does come from faith. Not that I have any greater knowledge of what life is about, but that I have a sense of trust in someone greater than me who does. To me, the idea of God being an extension of our collective consciousness is specious, because it is precisely this top-down view of God which provides the sense of purpose in believing in Him. To talk about God as an extension of ourselves is to rob the whole idea of God of its functionality.

Anyway, my moments when I say “of course I don’t believe in God” are those when I try to pinpoint exactly where that belief might derive from. I find the idea of God as creator implausible, the idea of him coming to earth as a human being implausible, and the idea that there is another life after this one, sadly implausible. And yet when I think about the world, I can’t shake the feeling that there is someone watching over us. And if that’s the case, that ‘one’ must also have been responsible for bringing the world into existence and for what happens after we die. So I’m torn, really.

I’m interested in Money Shot’s question of ‘what have you discovered for yourself, outside of culture etc?’ as I’m not sure exactly what we should be able to discover for ourselves. To accept religion is to accept authority, and if you submit to that authority, you may well have a very meaningful experience. The fact that you haven’t exactly discovered it for yourself doesn’t invalidate it. Accepting authority may be part of your own process of discovery. And I’m suspicious of the idea that what comes from within is any more authentic than what comes from without. That said, I sympathise a lot with Mr Shot’s observations about the actual effects of religion, and how it routinely fails to deliver what it promises.

At the end of the day, I find all positions on the subject equally unsatisfactory, with the exception of atheism which seems inherently more arrogant than any other. To say that you’re confident that something doesn’t exist without conclusive evidence takes a lot more brass than to say you’re confident that something does exist without conclusive evidence. And in these matters, to know that you don’t know is the beginning of knowledge (yawn).

I don’t know in what direction I’m heading. Obviously, like anyone else I think we should act according to what we think is best. But what is best does rather depend on whether we should be throwing all our resources into this world and this life, or whether there is another future life which will make this one seem trivial by comparison. Having this issue unresolved kinda makes it hard to act decisively in everyday life.
 
 
40%
02:49 / 05.12.04
Before anyone else points it out, I am aware of a contradiction in my view, as I have said that my belief in God comes from an extrapolation of my own experience, but also that the idea of God is necessarily top-down. So I'm starting with the belief that there must be a God, and thereby discovering him, and then submitting to his authority, thereby effectively being discovered myself.

This does somewhat lend itself to the idea that I am creating God rather than vice versa. And yet without this process, I am either accepting the idea of God based on human authority without having felt that sense that he is actually there based on my experience, or I am discovering God, but only as an extension of my own imagination, and not as a force to which I have to submit. Neither of which would be very authentic.

Ultimately, it has to be a case that God seeks you before you think of seeking him, and that even when you subjectively think you are 'discovering' God, you are actually being discovered. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

Excuse my rambling.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
03:06 / 05.12.04
There is no God. There are no gods. Except those phenom ena we construct humanly, in our fear of our smallness and our individuality, both of which I revel in and neither of which I fear.

I have lots of lovely friends whom I love and whom I respect who believe in something called God. I live with someone who isn't sure. But in my mind this creation (of Man) is a teddy bear to hug when lightning strikes or when life sucks.

Millennia have passed and He or She has not made His or Her presence known so fuck 'em, I say.
 
 
Aertho
03:48 / 05.12.04
I take issue with atheism. I think it's selfish and lazy.

Assuming nearly everyone does the Sunday School route of organized religion, don't we all at some point leave the nest to challenge the existence of a "magical intelligence" that sees all and punishes some? I'm led to think of that idea of God as the supernatural, and the repetition of angst boring.

I read comics and myth and social theory and you can't tell me there aren't unifying patterns at work. I could whip out a few adages from Temple discussions, but Gypsy Lantern has made that redundant and needlessly obtuse. I pretty much have in my head what she has in her posts.

For me, God ain't no anthropomorphic thought process in the clouds. It's a process, for sure, but a process we are actively and always part of.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:23 / 05.12.04
Technically (and maybe pedantically, maybe more relevant than one might expect), the kind of knowledge gnosis is isn’t the kind of knowledge (stereotypical) atheists have, I don’t think. Greek had two* words that can be translated as “knowledge” -- gnosis and eidenai. The first, gnosis is a kind of personal insight or familiar self-knowledge. In a way, it refers to information based on observations of the process of observing, but it also has a metaphysical connotation. Folk knowledge, maybe. Eidenai is knowledge based on logic, the kind of thing you’d get from reading a map or doing an equation.

I would strongly advise against taking this at face value, but I don't want to rot the thread.

On God... hmm. I was a Christian for about 5 days when I was 11, but it didn't stick. I do feel that upbringing is massively important - being raised by an atheist and someone whose closest conceptual equivalency was probably something in Isis cult, my C of E schooling never really had a chance to take. These days I tend to think that if there is a deity, I have no means of understanding either it or its effect on me, so it is probably best to act as if the highest court that judged my actions were myself and the highest laws that bound me were those of physics, and hope that the consequences, pre- or post-mortem, are not too apalling.
 
 
iamus
12:09 / 05.12.04
There is no God. There are no gods. Except those phenom ena we construct humanly, in our fear of our smallness and our individuality, both of which I revel in and neither of which I fear.

When talking of this, I think it's useful to make distinctions between God and gods. I think that we do perceive our gods in our own images, the Christian god being the most obvious example to me at this point as the watchful father figure, a hangover from our very primate perceptions of fear and the need to be loved. We set up our relationships with them to deal with parts of ourselves that we are unwilling or unable to in the day to day. Equally, we set up these relationships to engage with parts of ourselves and the universe we wish to explore further but are otherwise incabable. The very belief in them makes them "real", but just because they are a level above, does not make them any more "divine" than ourselves.

They are sort of a high level doorway, something we use to interface with the higher aspects of the universe and define the place our minds occupy within it (Just as, I suppose, we could be seen as a low-level doorway to the physical for them). Did we create them, did they create us? It's chicken and the egg and probably not an avenue of thought that'll turn out anything practical and useful. One thing for certain is that we are both created and we can both create. I think of God (with the capital G) as the medium that all of these things (ourselves included) are moulded from.

God is the universe and everything that creates or is created within it.

To employ a metaphor (and hopefully explain this a tad more coherently), think of God as a river. It's fast flowing and full of a million little sub-currents within itself, but it is coherent and whole. When you drop big rocks into it, it splits it up into other channels and the flow divides into seperate streams. Some of these streams are called gods, some are called humans, some are called mountains etc. etc. (Apologies for the seemingly New-Ageiness of this example, perhaps a Play-Dough analogy would be better )

Millennia have passed and He or She has not made His or Her presence known so fuck 'em, I say.

That would be a fairly obvious humanisation of God right there. The way I see God, it reveals itself to me in every event and every moment, with complete consistency.
 
 
The Falcon
01:31 / 06.12.04
This conversation often appears near the end of the party.

I believe in a purposeful universe. My religious experience, as such, is not based in any experience of phenomena whatsoever. It does have a mathematical framework, derived from one or two of Borges' short stories/epigrams, the names of which I cannot remember.
 
 
PatrickMM
01:37 / 06.12.04
In the Kaballah journey section of Alan Moore's Promethea, there was a really interesting issue, in which Promethea meets with all these Greek Gods, Norse Gods, and other myhtological Gods, then winds up in front of Jesus on the cross, the point of the issue being that all the entities that humans have worshipped throughout time are just different manifestations of the same all powerful being. I feel a bit guilty about taking some of my most important beliefs from a comic book, but that just fit so well to explain things I'd been thinking about for years. I think the teachings of Jesus were great, and aren't that different from the teachings of Buddha, or Muhammed.

I feel like there has been a collective evolution in the way human beings see God, moving from the wrathful, vengeful figures of Greek and Egyptian belief systems, as well as the old testament God. However, the teachings of Buddhism, Christianity and Islam all represent a move towards a kinder God, who is more concerned with love than fear.

Along the lines of the one God seen through different lenses thing, I think this applies not just to the biggest elements of religion. Sigil magick is essentially the same thing as prayer, and I feel that they tap into the same God-consciousness. I think that some kind of higher being exists, because I often find if I really want something, like I've got a crush on a girl or something like that, it seems like I'm soon presented with an opportunity to act on that desire. It's like my will somehow led to me having the opportunity. Now, you could say it's coincidence, but it happens too much. When I was younger I used to pray, and if I prayed for something, I'd often find it happening. There's so much synchronicity in this world, I feel there's got to be something higher than us, moving things into place, giving us the major choices in our lives.
 
 
Rev. Orr
04:41 / 06.12.04
Money $hot said "I...took my son to the Eucharist at Bath Cathedral on Easter Sunday, with the Bishop of Bath and Welles presiding."

First, the tedious pedantry; you took your son to the service of Holy Communion at Bath Abbey where the sermon was preached by the Bishop of Bath and Wells. What's the point of the smug correction? In the case of a simple typo, none. The question of who was officiating at the service is, similarly, an irrelevant detail of staffing and procedure. The absence of a cathedra, the dual see nature of the Bath and Wells bishopric and the precise status of the parish church of St.Peter and St.Paul in Bath is a historical curiosity with little import outside the ecclesiastical structure of the Church of England. Equally, the exact nomenclature of the service you attended merely serves to highlight the denomination of the service you attended, the collective belief of the faithful as to what exactly was being handed out up at the altar rail and the corporate branding , if you will, of the event. However, taken as a whole, I would suggest that these details might suggest that there were elements, facts, structures and relevant influences impinging on the narrative that you were unaware of.

Why bring this up? Apart from special pleading - Bath Abbey is the closest I have to a home parish and regular place of worship - the point is the homeless man you mentioned. If you'd walked around the corner to Manvers Street and the Baptist church near the station, you would have found the local drop-in centre for the homeless in the city centre. If you'd walking up Landsdown hill a short way, you might have come across the shelter and advice/advocacy centre. Neither of these services receive funding from the local authority, both are poly-denominational church charities. They were set up, maintained and supported by the churches of Bath for precisely the reasons that you mentioned in your post about the scriptural attitude of Christ to those that society chose to marginalise. The large congregations that the Abbey can generate on major festivals, the tourist revenue it receives and it's perceived status within the community all mean that the bulk of the funding and volunteer staff for the projects come from its elderly and dwindling congregation.

Point is, you friend may not have received any spare change from the regular attendees that passed him, but the bed for the night, hot meals, legal advice and protection that were all available to him within a short walk, had all been provided in no small part by the same heartless hypocrites. The lack of eye-contact or human interaction - well they're not saints. Sometimes even well-meaning people can be shitty. Sometimes, whatever your considered view of a situation, you'll miss a fellow human being because your thoughts are hung up on the extended family reunion that can overshadow the spiritual element of a festival.

They all gave money to the church though!

And, genuinely, most of them thought that this would help him more.

So, back on topic, what have we learned, children? That whenever this topic gets an airing, mostly what we discover is how much of what we regard as 'self-evident' is coloured by our assumptions, conscious or unconscious. 'Default' or 'natural' positions get questioned, the onus of proof gets batted from side-to-side. Baffled and slightly patronising cries of 'I can see why that's a comfort to you but why can't you see X?' go up from all-comers. Atheists and theists alike seem to see the 'other side' moving the metaphysical goalposts to skew the terms of debate. The theists posit a God and then demand the atheists prove a negative. The atheists request empirical evidence of a construct beyond human perception. Chicken and egg questions like "is divinity a construct of the collective unconscious' desire for a rational universal order or is the 'God-shaped hole' that so many people feel a reflection of a dim perception of a greater truth?' chase their tails like world-circling snakes.

I tend to see the question of the existance of God much like a koan or a divining mirror - our rational quest for meaning sheds more light on our own though processes, assumptions and nature than it does on an external reality. We look outside ourselves for answers and if we are honest, find little more than a greater understanding of our individual selves. Which leads us back to Jack Fear's journey. If reason cannot sum to faith, if the final leap to a divine is anti-rational or outwith the construct of experiential logic and/or debate, then is faith itself irrelevant, separate or misleading or is it rather an intellectual position couched in another language? It's like an equation where one side is a complex system of algebraic unknowns and the other a non-mathematical mystery where meaning seems clear but unfathomable: (x + ny) - god = fish.

I would suggest that we all can share in the debate, the quest or journey if you will, and that sharing experinces, arguments and thought patterns can lead as much to interest, screaming tantrums , incremental enlightenment or confusion as any social interaction. My two-penneth, however, is that any conclusion, be it theist, atheist, agnostic, denominational or individual, is a matter of choice, faith or supra-rational decision and as such is a personal pattern-marker. Revealing it can often illuminate or indicate connected thought trails within an individual's approach to the question, but it is rarely profitable to engage directly with the end-point which tends to prove resistant to external advocacy or short-term reasoning.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:44 / 06.12.04
And also, in some cases, on what definition of 'evidence' is being used.

Well, yes. But I'd argue that the whole thing about belief (as opposed to knowledge) is that it requires no evidence.
It's the whole Hitch-Hiker's Guid thing... "I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing".
 
 
Jack Fear
18:50 / 06.12.04
Or, in bumper-sticker form: Believing Is Seeing.
 
 
grant
19:59 / 06.12.04
I would strongly advise against taking this at face value, but I don't want to rot the thread.

Man, using Greek really is like a Summon Haus spell. I kinda knew it wasn’t entirely accurate, but thought the point that “gnosis” doesn’t exactly equal “knowledge” was worth making. I’m really curious about the finer points of which term means which kind of knowledge, but yeah, threadrot and all.

However, the teachings of Buddhism, Christianity and Islam all represent a move towards a kinder God

Pedantry, but maybe of use: Buddhism isn’t moving toward any sort of God at all. In Tibetan Buddhism and some of the other Far Eastern forms, you’ll find characters who are god-like, but the Supreme Intelligence of the Universe isn’t really a concept that’s there – everything is explained basically as a pre-existent machine, a system that continues free of personality.

It’s an atheistic religion. You can pray to the Buddha, or to however many bodhisattvas, but they're all just guys who figured out how to hack the system.
 
 
adamswish
21:45 / 06.12.04
I believe in something. I call that something god as it's an easy label, a known brand if you will.

I just believe that I can (or should) talk to "god" whenever I want. I don't like the idea of having to approach through middlemen, or have to crowd together on certain days, in certain places in order for "god" to hear me. I guess it's a modern thing. Eveyone wants to be able to talk to "organ grinder" not the "monkies". Actually that sounds really bad and I apologise for my crass and possibly offensive metaphor.

As to who this "god" actually is I'm not sure. I have actually been contemplating it recently and have one idea that I am in fact talking to me. Not quite sure how to explain it. And possibly others have explained it better than I could earlier on in this thread. And as I said I'm only just getting to grips with this idea.
 
 
Ganesh
22:35 / 06.12.04
Well, yes. But I'd argue that the whole thing about belief (as opposed to knowledge) is that it requires no evidence.

And I'd argue that this works well for relatively narrow definitions of "belief" and "evidence", but using the concepts more inclusively (ie. belief not necessarily mapping onto 'blind faith'; evidence not necessarily mapping onto objectivity/scientific method), the two are hardly mutually exclusive. For some people, the structure of lung tissue, say, is evidence of a Creator/designer, and this underpins their belief in God. Others would define 'evidence' differently and reach a different conclusion.
 
 
Ganesh
23:25 / 06.12.04
Can you expand on that, Ganesh? I'm interested at how you arrive at that point, intellectually rather than emotionally, since I think I underdstand the latter better.

(Okay, here's where I get into philosophical deepshit even attempting to differentiate the two...).

I'm not sure that I necessarily arrive at agnosticism through a logical intellectual process: it's more that agnosticism best reflects the way I - and, I suspect, the majority of human beings, filter information and belief.

I'd love to say my decision to believe or disbelieve something is based solely on the available evidence (where evidence = objective evidence). As any prescriber of prescription drugs will tell you, one is soon brought up short against the limits of objective observation: insufficiently-detailed accounts, too-small numbers of observers, human error, hidden agendas, etc., etc. One cannot ever, IMHO, be 100% 'evidence-based' in one's beliefs; one will usually lend more weight to that which one experiences oneself. Using the prescribing analogy: I might read a large-scale survey telling me Smiletine is effective in alleviating depression; if I've prescribed Smiletine without success, my belief in the large-scale survey is likely to be diminished - and disproportionately diminished, I'm sure, given that my sample size is much smaller.

So I'm aware that even those beliefs I consider founded on good evidence ('Smiletine is effective in depression') are disproportionately influenced by my own direct sensory experience ('I could see Smiletine wasn't effective when I prescribed it').

How else is my generally-rationalist outlook influenced? Well, as well as taking into account what I see and hear myself, my belief in something is also likely to be swayed if people I respect (particularly large numbers of people I respect) disbelieve it, and vice versa. In the analogy above, if I've read the survey on Smiletine but not yet prescribed it, and colleagues whose opinions I respect say, "nahh, it doesn't work", then my belief in Smiletine's effectiveness will, to some extent, be influenced.

I suppose I'm trying to say I don't operate along black/white, evidence/faith lines, but rather (consciously or unconsciously) weigh up possibilities and likelihoods based on an ever-adjusting balance of reported 'objective' evidence (the survey), direct experience (prescribing to someone myself) and the testimonies of those whose opinions I value (colleagues' views). That's a (doubtless simplified version of) my own personal reality filter; it's how I decide the extent to which any given statement is 'true'.

Applying that filter to the question of God, I find that, for me, the prevailing objective evidence is not suggestive of the existence of a sentient Creator (my sense of wonder at the world doesn't translate into the sense that it's been consciously designed). My own direct experience also is not suggestive of this (I've never had a Road to Damascus-type burst of divine revelation). What does impress me, however, is the fact that a great many people whose views I respect have reached a different conclusion.

This last factor at least introduces the element of doubt, the possibility that, while the lack of (what I would see as objective) 'proof' and the lack of 'faith' on my part would otherwise lead me to believe that no, there's no God, this conclusion should always be open to re-evaluation. Hence agnosticism.

(Hoping that's explained my dodgy reasoning a little more clearly. This why, intellectually, I think agnosticism is - for me, anyway, the most honest option. It allows room for doubt, to be proved wrong. It's not the whole story of my 'fuzzy agnosticim', though.)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:31 / 06.12.04
For some people, the structure of lung tissue, say, is evidence of a Creator/designer, and this underpins their belief in God. Others would define 'evidence' differently and reach a different conclusion.

I totally get you. That's why I put "I'd argue" rather than just leaving it as a blank statement. On reflection, "To me" would possibly have been a better choice of words. And yes, "evidence" and "belief" not only mean differenr things to different people, but they mean different things to the SAME people at different times. Or something.

I guess I was transposing "belief" with "faith" back there, though. An easy mistake to make, given the context.
 
  

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