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Do you believe in God?

  
  

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Ganesh
01:03 / 03.12.04
Or Allah. Or Jehovah. Or Brahma or Satan or whoever. Do you believe in any sort of creator entity - and do you put a name to that entity?

That's probably too specific a question, and it's possibly a nebulous enough question for the Head Shop - but I'm slightly afraid that, in the Head Shop, the question might be cleaned and dusted and mounted on a really nice base and placed in a pristine glass cabinet where no-one would dare to touch it without reading up, in advance, on believing-in-Godness stuff. And so, pissed out of my face as I currently am, here it is in the Conversation. I want people to touch it. Don't be afraid. There's no right or wrong answer.

I used to have a stock answer for this, but my stock answer has changed over time. Originally, I was atheist, but I was never really a fervent atheist. Colleagues used to deliberately engage the Christian Medical Fellowship in nit-picky debate, but I never did. Even then, I think I appreciated that, if they wanted to hold certain beliefs, that was their business.

I suppose I'm lucky in that no particular belief system was imposed upon me. My parents came from Scottish Protestant backgrounds, but neither family was especially religious, and, while I had access to a wonderfully-illustrated Bible and my parents paid lip-service to once-in-a-blue-moon Sunday school, neither expected me to become an actual Christian. Which is just as well, really.

I'm not atheist. I haven't been atheist for almost a decade or so. When pushed, I describe myself as 'fuzzy agnostic', which means I vaguely believe in a sort of universal collective mass consciousness/unconsciousness which might be described as 'God' - but I see it as a very individual thing, and don't see the point of trying to 'convert' others. I also maintain faith in altruism, the idea that, all else being equal, people are basically 'good'. It helps that I like people; I think the planet would be much duller without us.

Whenever I've done the denomination questionnaires (and, in my time on Christian boards, I did my share of those), I've come out as one or other denomination on the farther shores of Christianity. I don't see myself as Christian, particularly, but it doesn't bother me that I scored 'Moderate Christian' or whatever. I think it reflects my spiritual 'fuzziness'.

Where do you stand on the vexed question of 'God'?
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
01:16 / 03.12.04
Answering to this really quickly.

Gut instinct: fuck no.
After a second: fuck knows.

Now: hmmm. Kind of I don't think so. But then I went to Christian school, and certain types of Christian (shove it in your face, shove it down your throat! Infidel!) I find incredibly annoying. I'm kind of for looking at everything, and taking bits of whatever works for you, deciding for yourself... and I don't really know what that is for me, so I just do whatever. And try to be kind of nice.

I believe in life!

But hey, I'm drunk too! Yeah! What was the question?
 
 
grant
01:20 / 03.12.04
Probably somewhere near you on the margins, only with more indoctrination (in the basest meaning of that word).

I believe there's an ordering principle to the universe, that it's roughly analogous to the ordering principle I refer to as my personality or mind, and that it's far more complex and sophisticated than mine. Human intelligence is only one expression of this ordering principle, and morality (our social/emotional system, as distinguished from our simple logical concerns) is another expression.

I believe that human minds can occasionally open themselves to perceiving the workings of the principle in ways that transcend ordinary awareness of pattern; in other words, I think there's such a thing as mystic experiences that grant access to divine reality. I think Moses getting guidance from YHWH's voice in the burning bush is a metaphor rather than a literal description, but I'm also apt to think that my commute home from work is a metaphor for something as well as literally a rather boring process of risking my life on the highway.

So, yeah.
 
 
iamus
01:25 / 03.12.04
I find it kind of pointless to try and seperate "God" from everything else. God is conciousness, but conciousness is everything in one form or another. I don't think of it as a creator entity. Rather, it is creativity itself. It's everywhere, equally as present in you and me as it is in a koala bear or a rock or a river or a boob job. The way I see it, it's not set apart from anything. Like the way that space and time don't exist outside of the universe, God doesn't exist outside of conciousness and perception.

I should return to this later. It's dark and I'm yawning.
 
 
Ganesh
01:29 / 03.12.04
Hmm. Everything that everybody's said so far chimes with my idea of 'God'. I must be pangnostic. Or something.
 
 
HCE
02:49 / 03.12.04
No, not at all. Nor do I believe in spirituality of any kind. I believe consciousness arises as the result of a certain kind of complexity, and I don't believe the capacity for that kind of complexity exists in dolphins (for example). I believe that what I consider to be myself will be irretrievably destroyed when my body is destroyed, and for that matter, if I suffer sufficiently severe brain damage, I think that's enough to do the trick.

I'm an atheist, and not only do I lack any belief in anything supernatural, I even think such beliefs are, on the whole, harmful, and I am always disturbed and dismayed to find that thoughtful people sustain such beliefs even after close examination of them. I do find that many intelligent people hold such beliefs quite seriously however, not at all merely as a matter of habit or upbringing.

I don't, however, believe that arguing with people about God has any effect, other than possibly strengthening their faith. Wrong tool for the job -- a job for which there is no right tool.
 
 
Ganesh
02:55 / 03.12.04
I think I'd concur as far as belief in the "supernatural" is concerned. I would, however, posit that our understanding of the 'natural' is kinda frayed-around-the-edges...
 
 
iconoplast
03:09 / 03.12.04
Yes. Or I try to at least.
Depending on whether you mean "believe in" like "I believe in UFOs," as in "I believe in you," or "I believe in Free Speech."

Because while I believe (I'm really tempted to say know) that some kind of power-greater-than-myself exists, I fail to trust in this power - which is to say, I find faith very hard to maintain. However, I think faith is an immensely utile attitute to hold. So, in the third sense, yes, I believe.

The days when I have faith I feel as though my life were proceeding according to a plan. That while I might not know the ending, it'll be worth sticking around for. I believe that whatever's going on today will make sense on some tomorrow, and will have been for the best. And I'm okay with not knowing, because I trust.

The days when I don't have so much going on faithwise are the days when school and work become soul-crushing tedium. When I think of my past in terms of phrases like "ruined my chances of..." and "could have been..." When that motherfucker in front of me should have his liscence revoked because for fuck's sake who drives the speed limit in the fast lane?

My concept of God feels anything but supernatural, and my faith seems to me to be anything but harmful.

But then again, the question of the existence of some kind of benevolent deity is, to me, answered. Things happened, in my life, that make sense only in the context of a spiritual experience. Or, rather, in the context of a spiritual experience the things make sense, and outside they're just more random happenstance.

Take all this with a grain of salt - three years ago I was told in no uncertain terms by people I trusted very much that I could find something to believe in or die miserable and insane. So I had to go and sort of talk myself into faith.
 
 
HCE
03:19 / 03.12.04
Ganesh writes, " I would, however, posit that our understanding of the 'natural' is kinda frayed-around-the-edges... "

Would you go for 'unraveling and being rewoven, but generally getting warmer'? It seems to me that what I understand to be natural does get weirder and more surprising, richer. Something along those lines?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
03:31 / 03.12.04
See, I agree with dwight, but I'm not an atheist. I don't think there is any worthwhile distinction between the material and the spiritual, but that doesn't mean one exists and the other doesn't. I think consciousness is a property of highly complex matter--very small bits of matter moving very fast in a very small space, in a very specific way, become self-aware. They can't help it, they keep bumping into each other. I think that almost the whole of what we think of as "self" is machinery, an operating system for the vehicle that carries our dna around, but there is some little shred of something special. I'm not sure what that is.

I think when groups of minds are moving around getting involved with each other, they form patterns, much like the self-regarding patterns of matter moving about in close quarters somewhere in the vicinity of our heads; and the inter-mindal patterns become self-regarding in a totally different way, and that's a god. It's another type of organism, which seems very powerful to us, just as we must seem powerful to the creatures snared in our infrastructure--dogs, for instance.

I don't think there is any supreme creator or predestinator or judge.
 
 
Seth
07:01 / 03.12.04
I'm an atheist, and not only do I lack any belief in anything supernatural, I even think such beliefs are, on the whole, harmful, and I am always disturbed and dismayed to find that thoughtful people sustain such beliefs even after close examination of them. I do find that many intelligent people hold such beliefs quite seriously however, not at all merely as a matter of habit or upbringing.

Any idea why they believe them, then? What positive thing do they get out of it?

It would seem strange that an alarming majority - in fact, a near total majority - of people on the planet believe in something that is *harmful.* There's got to be positive reasons, especially if otherwise *intelligent* people can stoop so low.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
07:05 / 03.12.04
I believe in the all-pervading massthink thing. Possibly.
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:24 / 03.12.04
I am atheist who has come by the route of cathlolicism. One of those. My position is a little softer than dwight's on religion, but I do think that religion is fairly straighforwardly irrational and that we have a culture which accepts some fairly absurd propositions as unremarkable. That said, I wouldn't go so far as to say that religion is harmful, except in some abstract way. That is, religion is a powerful force for motivation which, while it has caused harm, has also been of great benefit to individuals and communities.

Imagine you have a friend who believes that he is a shapeshifter from the planet Pluto, having been sent on a special mission to restore the crystal of k'Annrax, and help humanity realise its potential. This friend might draw a lot of comfort from this belief, which in turn might give them strength to do a lot of good. But one couldn't help feeling that there was something a bit suspect going on. Thats pretty much how I see religion these days.
 
 
Sax
07:26 / 03.12.04
My quick answer for now is: I haven't seen much evidence of a creator/controlling entity that doesn't have a satisfactory explanation via science, but I certainly wouldn't be terribly surprised if there was a god.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
07:36 / 03.12.04
Oddly, I've always thought of the label atheist as something unnecessary, given that the state of non-belief in any higher or divine entity seems to me to be an utterly natural one.

For myself, my own belief is in the uncertainty of existence. I don't believe in a higher power, sentient or otherwise, neither am I a fan of spiritualism, which seems to me in many ways to simply be yet another method of self-delusion; a way of hiding your head in the sand in the hope that the realities of existence pass you by and don't notice you.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:09 / 03.12.04
God is born of fear of the uncontrollable, and out of a thought structure which, desperate to ensure it's own continuity, creates dualities and assigns positive/negative attributes to them in order to jump-start a search. The negative is always what one has now, the positive exists in some nebulous future which always, somehow, is just around the corner. Thus it can perpetuate and sustain itself.

So the thought structure insists that life is 'meaningless', all this chopping wood and carrying water, there must be something more! Yes! Meaning is 'out there' and must be sought after. The ultimate meaning is God. Hurray!

ppfft.

Equally, man is 'bad', 'unhappy', 'selfish' and 'pained'. The search is on! The search for 'goodness', 'happiness', 'selflessness' and 'pleasure'. God is the ultimate, permanent 'good', 'happy' and 'pleasure', pleasure without pain for all eternity.

Except there is no permanence.

No greater suffering and con trick has ever been pulled on mankind than the quest for and belief in God.

My pointless tuppence worth.
 
 
Bear
09:23 / 03.12.04
I think there's something out there but I can never work out in my own mind what I actually think it is, every time I do it just turns into a bad episode of Star Trek.

I think it's something related to love a feeling of total joy and bliss that we can sometimes hook into. Or maybe that's something else completely.

I think the truth is probably far too complex for us to understand, at least I tell myself that so I can stop thinking about it and think about wrestling instead.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:30 / 03.12.04
I don't believe in any of the Gods presented to me by the big players. I don't think I believe in one omniscient omnipotent creator. I think I might believe in some-kinda-spiritual-kinda-thing out there. But whether that counts as supernatural or just 'stuff we don't know about yet' I don't know.
 
 
Smoothly
09:46 / 03.12.04
I think that some of these definitions of God are pushing it a bit. If 'you can't separate God from everything else' then... I don't know where to start; although probably with 'else'. And God isn't consciousness, consciousness is consciousness. You might want to call your consciousness God then fine, but that sounds either spectacularly jumped up, or pretty denigrating to God.

I'd place myself a little on the dwight side of Archive. I think there would probably be a net gain if everyone stopped believing in God. It bothers me that people think their crimes can be absolved by their imaginary friends - that everything will come out in the wash at Judgment Day. It bothers me that GW Bush and Tony Blair think that their actions are accountable to God, not to us.

I'm also disappointed when people couch in 'spiritual' terms the awe that the world and the human experience inspires. To me it's a failure to properly engage. To think of the depth of consciousness and emotion as something other than the work of the brain fails to give credit where it's due. And if we continue to view certain phenomena as other and inexplicable, then I think we're failing and incurious. The fact that it's my brain that falls in love with someone is more awe inspiring to me than the idea of souls meeting in some nonphysical realm.

To be honest, I also don't believe a lot of people who say they believe in God. If they do then some of them are taking enormous risks. I'm pretty sure that if I believed in, say, the Christian God, I wouldn't take any chances of offending Him. I'd also spend a great deal of effort trying to convince the people I care about to believe. I don't think I could stand by and watch my friends condemn themselves to eternal damnation. Christians who don't proselytise must be pretty heartless.
 
 
Baz Auckland
09:49 / 03.12.04
I believe in is some sort of 'collective-consciousness-spiritual-power' kind of thing that organizes the world... but for some odd reason I can't for the life of me believe in a 'creator' God...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:06 / 03.12.04
As I frame it, God is a word that describes everything in the universe/reality as a single object. Therefore everything that is, is God. All things are divine in nature. The universe is a single consciousness that expresses itself in an abundance of ways. It's the sun rising over London, trees growing in the park, two people making love, a lion ripping out another creature's throat, making a round of tea in the office, trying on new clothes, the sea eroding a coastline, cooking a great meal, HHH throwing Mick Foley off the top of a steel cage, a winter cold, worms eating a corpse, being hassled to buy double glazing, ecstatic pleasures, drunken afternoons and tears in the night. All of that is God. What else could God be?

There are various models for trying to understand the nature of God/the universe/reality, which tend to divide it up into smaller, more easily comprehendible, chunks. We can generally identify several broad aspects of our reality, or what we might call the human experience of God. Different cultures frame these in different ways, giving a greater emphasis to one thing over another depending on cultural bias. So we have seperate "systems" or "traditions" for understanding the universe, which I collectively term "The Mysteries". This is inclusive of the Sephiroth of the Tree of Life, the Catholic Saints, the Lwa and Orisha, Norse gods, Olympian pantheon, and every possible means of understanding the numinous all pervading nature of reality by dividing it into more directly comprehendible component aspects. These Gods and Goddesses, with their myriad personalities and roles, function as divinity expressed in human terms. Their anthropomorphic nature allows us to develop close personal human-type relationships with the divine all encompassing reality that is God.

Everything that exists is God. We are made in Gods image. Reality is a single object. We are the tips of the branches of a great tree of being, growing out of our ancestors, family lines intermingling, snaking backwards through prehistory. All life on earth, all things in the universe, a single growing organism. If we're going to give this process a name, God is as good a name as any.

There's nothing "supernatural" about it. I don't even know what that word means... something "extra" to nature? How does that work? What exactly are you talking about? The definition of the word "supernatural" that seems to be in use above, appears to be something like "far fetched silly horror movie stuff that only the deluded would believe in", which is a slight straw man position to raise, no? I don't believe in anything "supernatural", I don't believe in anything based on faith alone, or on received creed or dogma. I endeavour to explore the Mysteries and construct working models of the Divine based on personal experience. These maps are constantly changing and being updated, always open to revision, and are the product of a dynamic interplay between my own consciousness and everything else in the universe. That interplay is what I call "religion". I might change my mind about some of the above as my understanding develops, but that is really the point. Nothing is static. God is a process, and we're all engaging in it on a day-to-day basis.
 
 
iamus
11:15 / 03.12.04
Damn you Gypsy, with your thought to word coherence.

I agree with what Gypsy has said. Adding to my previous post, I would say that conciousness is energy which has been constructed in a certain pattern. Matter is also energy which has been constructed in a certain (denser) pattern. Therefore I believe all matter and energy to be conciousness in some form. God is the rug that all these patterns are sewn on and with.

Conciousness is not a term to be defined solely on a Human level. Human conciousness is different from other forms, but is not the sole definition of the term. Everything is equally as divine as everything else, there is no seperation. We attach our own beliefs and value systems to our actions and thoughts because its a useful survival strategy, but in the grand scheme, our perspective is just one which is really no more or less important than any other.

I also have trouble with the term "supernatural". The universe is everything. Go looking for something and you'll probably find the evidence to support it. Its only what you chose to accept or close yourself off from that makes things natural, unnatural or supernatural. If you watch nothing but Pebble Mill all day, ghosties are likely to seem odd. Taken from another perspective, they're as simple and obvious as a carton of milk.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:32 / 03.12.04
The definition of the word "supernatural" that seems to be in use above, appears to be something like "far fetched silly horror movie stuff that only the deluded would believe in", which is a slight straw man position to raise, no?

Not if one is referring to Catholicism (or probably any flavour of Christianity), for instance, no.


These broad definitions of God are intriguing, however, since they seem to me to equivocate between assigning a banal meaning to the concept (God is like a really big gas, man, all the gas that floats about) by way of convincing the reader that existence in a non-issue, and some stronger meanings that are often implicit yet are surely the point of insisting on that particular label. Without wanting to offend anyone, I can't help feeling that this move is a little dishonest.
 
 
alas
12:23 / 03.12.04
It seems I can't think of any of these questions without thinking through my story, which isn't remarkable. I am one of the many on this board who was raised in a fairly evangelical Christian family. Went to church every Sunday, and at night I really feared going to hell, starting from about the age of 4. I would imagine my whole family up in heaven, and me not there, and I'd feel the shame of their knowledge that I wasn't really "saved." I took all of this very seriously through high school and into college. I would try to love God more than my family and friends, but couldn't. I would try to read the Bible every day, but get bored. I would try to pray, but get distracted somewhere in the middle. And then feel terribly guilty.

In college, I found the Christians to be, eventually, surprise!, just much less interesting than the non-Christians. Religion and philosophy classes offered a means by which to imaginatively pull myself outside Christianity and to look at it not "objectively" but in relation to other ways of seeing the world. And of course science classes just kept plugging away at their very logical, rational empirical approach to knowledge, which humanities classes also had adapted to the exploration of culture.

It was like being able to breathe for the first time.

I partnered up with an atheist, but have never been able to call myself an atheist. I remain in the fuzzy category, too. And for me it's partly, maybe even mainly?, because I still want to remain in relation to my family. For the most part, they can't think outside Christian terms. So if I became actively non-Christian, it would be almost like me becoming non-human.

I still find that there are helpful metaphors at work in christianity, and I know that my ethical system is rooted there. I also find power in the story of Christ and other stories in the Bible; there's a kind of richness, wisdom in these old repeated stories that their being designated as Sacred Text seems to seek to calcify and literalize in a way that, for me, drains out the real value of them.

I don't know where this leaves me on the God question. I sometimes think that we, as a culture, are too enamoured of metaphysics generally.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:23 / 03.12.04
I don't really see how your comments at all engage with what I've just said. From my perspective Catholicism, at it's essence, isnt at all "supernatural". It's just an ordering system for comprehending the mysteries of the universe in human terms, and a framework for interacting with them. Same as Tantra, Santeria, Islam, etc... Similarly, to equate the statement "Everything that is, is God" with the Alan Partridge-esque "God is, like, a gas...man..." is a pretty inane simplification of the concept.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:25 / 03.12.04
I wake up an atheist every morning, and have to work my way back up to belief. It's now 9:00 AM local time, and I'm pretty good. After another cup of coffee, I'll be positively devout.

It's a struggle, every day. But I think that's kind of the point.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:36 / 03.12.04
It sounds a little ridiculous but I think I'm an atheist who believes in gods. About 80% of me realises that I'm betraying my political ideals to believe in anything as absurd and horrible and prone to making us unequal as a god. So it refuses to. The rest of me (this is what I like to call Little Miss Ritual) is saying, gosh what a jolly thing this community religious thing is, let's all sing some John Rutter at the tops of our voices and then go home and engage in some goddess worship! As you can see the 20% of me that's religious is completely irrational.
 
 
alas
12:38 / 03.12.04
Gypsy, you and I were posting at the same time (I know that you were responding to Lurid), but I want to say that was moved by your piece, and see the beauty of it as a belief system, but I think I can also see where Lurid is coming from. Partly what I was getting at, in my story, is that in most instances, the presentation of Christianity doesn't really allow for taking it as its "essence" as one valuable way of dividing and structuring the world, but as THE true story that must be taken whole and fairly literally: e.g., you must believe that Christ was born to a virgin, meaning very specifically a young woman who had never, ever had sex with any human. That God came down and impregnated her. That god is a trinity--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That there is a very literal place called hell. That our bodies--not just our spirits but our bodies--are made new in heaven and hell. Every Sunday in traditional versions of Christianity the congregation affirms the literal dogmatic truths by repeating the Nicene or Apostle's Creed.

I'm wrestling with these issues still at this level--it seems like one can look at the stories and the belief systems and see their validity and usefulness from the outside, but as soon as you do that, you've stopped seeing them as the One Revealed Truth, which is how most insiders see them. There's a kind of logical slippage if we move across that border too readily that I think Lurid is trying to get us to explore. No?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:01 / 03.12.04
It's a struggle, every day. But I think that's kind of the point.

The point is struggle? You are alive. If you are warm, clothed, sheltered and fed, what more is there? Why this need for struggle, for more than that? Your organism requires nothing else - absolutely nothing. So what are you struggling for?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:13 / 03.12.04
what more is there?

The God-shaped hole. The hunger for meaning. Purpose. The need (and evidence suggests that it's hard-wired into us) to be part of something bigger than ourselves. The x-factor that constitutes the difference between Living and Subsisting, or between Contentment and Happiness, or between Movement and Travel. Whatever you want to call it.

Some people have it, some people (apparently) don't; or they do, but they try to fill it with other things.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:17 / 03.12.04
the presentation of Christianity doesn't really allow for taking it as its "essence" as one valuable way of dividing and structuring the world, but as THE true story that must be taken whole and fairly literally

Well, no. There's "true" in the sense of factual and then there's the Larger Truth, if you get my meaning. A thing doesn't have to be factually, literally true in order to be True in a larger sense.
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:26 / 03.12.04
I'm agnostic too. Mainly because my philosophy class convinced me that I cannot be sure of my eye colour never mind the existence of God.

I don't feel the need to clearly label and solidify my position on God or the supernatural, my ideas on this will and should evolve as I grow in experience and (hopefully) wisdom.

So to answer you question, Ganesh- sometimes.

I rather liked Phillip Pullman's ending of His Dark Materials when the souls leave the underworld. I thought it implied that just allowing yourself to dissipate into the universe was in in itself a kind of heaven, freedom. That's what I console myself with in my more atheistic moments- the worms will eat me and the cycle will continue. I find that very comforting.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:30 / 03.12.04
So the assumptions create the hunger, correct? I mean, without the toughtform that there must be more, there simply is nothing to seek, find out or believe in.

The answer is already in you ('God') and you create the question for whatever reason.

The thought construction that there must be more, a meaning which can be captured and comprehended by thought, dumps you right in the middle of a meaningless life (there's the duality requiring a search : meaning / meaningless), and thus God is created to 'solve' this quite possibly, even likely, imaginary 'problem' which has been instilled by culture and second hand 'knowledge'?

Without the assumption that if there is no God then life is meaningless, the question and answer collapse into irreverence. And still life is there. Full of its own meaning. It is. You are.

Not baiting, just amazed. Why is life so meaningless to you without a God?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:30 / 03.12.04
I'm so fucking special that there must be a higher power. I mean, really.
 
 
Sir Real
13:40 / 03.12.04
In other words, because some people think that God means (x), and I find that belief ridiculous, doesn't mean that I must therefore find the believe in a divinity ridiculous.

My personal belief is pretty damn close to what grant posted, with a bit of Gypsy's post thrown in. (Nicely put guys, btw.) I grew up in a not too indoctrinational church, quickly realized that they didn't really know much but were following the party line, and set out to explore for myself. It's a perfectly valid and usefull lens with which to view reality. Whether it does anything other than provide a cozy sense of belonging can only be answered by the practitioner. My answer is an unequivocal yes. None of my 'evidences' would convince anyone else, but that doesn't matter as you're perfectly capable of finding some for yourself.

I feel that for a large number of otherwise intelligent people, the baby of divinity gets thrown out with the bathwater of institutionalized religion.
 
  

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