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Do you believe in God?

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Seth
23:29 / 07.12.04
Whenever these conversations start I often feel an overwhelming gut instinct to play Devil’s Advocate. I think it’s more than possible for different parts of us to believe different things simultaneously, and those parts can even hold contradictory beliefs.

For example, the other week I found myself taking Lurid Archive’s stance in a conversation with a Christian. Part of me is behind that train of logic 100%. And now I’m reading this thread wanting to debate in favour of theism. I might just be a bit perverse, but I reckon that playing with these ideas is more rewarding than dogmatically adhering to any of them.

I may not have any fixed beliefs in this area these days. I hold my mystical experiences as paramount, but resist concrete belief systems to explain them. I sometimes have as many as five or six divergent explanations for my experience, and will use different ones as the occasion merits. So I guess I choose which beliefs to operate on whichever occasion.

I call it “mystical” for want of a better term – it’s not a word I believe in, it’s just convenient shorthand in order that I might be able to communicate some of my meaning. I mean the parts of my experience that I attach special significance to, the effects of which I might live with for many years (or for the rest of my life), which cannot be easily explained or accounted for.

So I see the question of whether or not God actually exists as irrelevant to this worldview. It seems to me that the concept of God is as powerful as the actuality of God, so it doesn’t matter to me a great deal whether He/She/It exists or not – the application is the same. I refuse to define my stance in the conventional terminology of atheist, theist, agnostic because I don’t like the survey style (Yes, No, Don’t Know). It doesn’t do justice to the complexity and significance of everything I’ve lived through.

I choose not to define myself in these terms. For your own convenience you may try to fit me with the agnostic label, but that’s pretty much because it’s a catchall for any stance that you feel doesn’t fit the binary Yes/No answer. I’ll not use it for myself. Sometimes it’s strange enough just considering whether I exist, so I won’t complicate matters with a question that I’m not sure I believe in.

I have no idea if that’s satisfactory, and I’m not sure I can elaborate further. It’s hard to talk about things that can’t be described using all these made up words for things that don’t really exist.
 
 
■
23:40 / 07.12.04
I forgot to answer the original question. My answer is a clear and emphatic "Fuck, no!" Which worries me a bit, because I still think it's possible to be an atheist Christian. A bit like being a western Buddhist, but in a more contentious milieu.
 
 
Ganesh
23:48 / 07.12.04
I might just be a bit perverse, but I reckon that playing with these ideas is more rewarding than dogmatically adhering to any of them.

I've never heard it articulated quite that way before, but yes - that definitely strikes a chord.
 
 
Lurid Archive
00:42 / 08.12.04
Well, to be honest, I have a lot more sympathy for religion than is probably apparent in this thread. And I certainly agree with Seth that playing with these ideas is important. In a certain way, I've been playing with them for as long as I can remember. But I think I decided some time ago that the insights that atheism provides and the framework that makes it coherent are not well understood. I'm not sure if that assessment is accurate, but the propensity toward religiosity has permeated every society I have seen - though in different ways.

Anyway, challenging the common assumptions that atheism is lazy, nihilistic and amoral seems worthwhile, even though my desire to do so is, ironically, something that I think I got from the Jesuits.
 
 
Aertho
02:08 / 08.12.04
Hm. I don't necessarily think atheism is a bad concept, equal to or greater than laziness. What i mean is, rather, what I meant was: Atheism is a phase as much as dogmatic religious absolutism. Luckily for us, or perhaps yet unluckily for us, is that we either breezed right through dogmatic religion very early in our development, or that we accept religious pluralism as our concrete dogma. In either case, atheism can set a person still and leave them there, somewhat directionless and devoid of universal meaning.

So it's not atheism that I think is lazy, but atheists.

Hm. That's not going to be recieved well.

In any case, atheism must be railed against as much as anything else, in order to test the strength of it as a viable worldview. Its a task many atheists do without, seeing railing as a product of religious conformity upon an individual's will, rather than the purest aspect of the human condition. This "railing", in my mind, is exactly the aforementioned notion of playing with the ideas as opposed to being played by them.

I wonder if I've made any sense... it's been a long day.
 
 
King of Town
03:53 / 08.12.04
Although I disagree with most of you wholeheartedly, I'm certainly glad that we all have the freedom to beleive and profess whatever we please. This subject is one of the most most important ones of our lives. If anyone is serious about getting it figured out, I would suggest investigating all the churches that you think might possibly be right, and especially a few that you think are positively wrong, just in case. See where your heart leads you. Then join my church. and give me money.
 
 
Seth
22:40 / 08.12.04
In any case, atheism must be railed against as much as anything else, in order to test the strength of it as a viable worldview. Its a task many atheists do without, seeing railing as a product of religious conformity upon an individual's will, rather than the purest aspect of the human condition. This "railing", in my mind, is exactly the aforementioned notion of playing with the ideas as opposed to being played by them.

I think this is really important. I’m so used to seeing people being run by their belief systems as though they’re stuck in some kind of feedback loop. It takes a brave person to step out of the loop and recognise that it takes a believer to believe in the belief system, and that this realisation places the individual on a higher level than their beliefs (of course in practise things are a lot more complex). Often the process of “railing” against a belief is an important aspect of this realisation.

It’s probably evidence of my thorough absorption of Gregory Bateson’s Neurological Levels model, but these days I always tend to look at the individual at this higher level, above their beliefs. Where religion makes this difficult is that it presupposes that a person’s spiritual dimension is at a higher level than their status as an individual, thus making it incredibly difficult for a person to change their spiritual beliefs. What they perceive to be their very context and purpose is called into question, which can seem terrifying.

In practise we can only know ourselves through what we believe about ourselves, which makes Bateson’s model just another map of the world which (a map which happens to be extremely useful on occasion). I guess in a way belief functions like language: just as language exists in a state of infinitely deferred meaning (you can only describe the meaning of a word using other words), what we believe about our beliefs could also go on forever (I believe about this belief about this belief about this belief… ad infinitum).

So my ideal state is that my beliefs exist in service of this unknowable entity I call “I.” The vast majority of my beliefs exist outside of my immediate conscious awareness and often seem contradictory to a casual observer, and so life is a constant process of noticing one’s potentially harmful beliefs (although some beliefs may only be harmful in some contexts), drawing them into consciousness, working to integrate them more harmoniously, and letting them sink back into unconsciousness.

It’s common in NLP to call one’s identity a trance in which beliefs act as hypnotic suggestions. Make of that what you will. Is this threadrot? I’m not sure. To paraphrase one of my friends, I’m becoming increasingly wary of feeding people more content to their belief systems and psychotheologies, because it has a tendency to remove people from their direct visceral experience of the world.

That doesn’t change the fact that the question of God is an amazing philosophical, mystical riddle to play around with and interact with in various ways, because it’s a macrocosmic unknowable that mirrors each of our own individual, personal unknowns. That’s one of the things I like about God: the usefulness of that mirroring quality.

For example, we absorb so much information every second that it’s impossible to pay attention to all of it. Only the tiniest fragment can be noticed consciously, the rest is processed at an unconscious level. At some basic level we all have a conception of our own limitations, which limits our insights into the world and ourselves. However, our beliefs concerning our personal limitations may be set somewhat lower than they are in actuality. The God-shaped mirror is like one of those funny things you encounter in fairgrounds, it reflects your image back at you in strange and interesting ways. Imagine your unconscious contents reflected back from a mirror that has inherent within it the qualities of an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent and wise God: it allows you that much more access to things that you don’t know that you know, things that you didn’t realise you noticed at the time. This may be a part of how a lot of divination works, including being part of the Charismatic Christian spiritual gift of Prophecy that I’ve been trained in for most of my life.

But again, all of this is just playing around with ideas, fitting them together in new ways. It stops being fun and useful the instant that it becomes relied upon for one’s identity and sense of purpose, as soon as it becomes more important than the person, as soon as we become stranded within dogma.

The only word I use to define myself these days is Seth. I even resist supposed compliments like being termed a lefty-libertarian (left/right, libertarian/authoritarian being yet more dualisms that don’t accurately describe me or my beliefs. They’re poor, inadequate maps of something hugely complex). Seth will do fine for now. Might change my mind in future, and people sometimes tend to act awkwardly around people who can’t be easily categorised, but I consider that’s more a function of their limiting beliefs than it is a problem with me. My compassion means I’ll try to communicate using their terms, but I always try to make it clear that I’m only borrowing their terminology, not keeping it for myself.

Am I rambling, or is this useful to anyone?
 
 
Seth
22:46 / 08.12.04
King of Town: Although I disagree with most of you wholeheartedly

Specifically which of us do you disagree with wholeheartedly?

In what manner do you disagree with those people?
 
 
grant
18:50 / 10.12.04
Have fun with this bit of today's news:
Atheist philosopher Antony Flew declares he does believe in God after all.

His definition falls within the same general parameters as most of the pro-God folks here. He now describes himself as a "Jeffersonian deist."

I don't really know how prominent or outspoken Flew was, but, you know, it generates headlines.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:31 / 10.12.04
I really shouldn't...

A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.

Oh, but he makes it so easy...
 
 
HCE
22:57 / 10.12.04
"Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said."

Never heard of him. I've been living under a rock, obviously.
 
 
King of Town
04:59 / 11.12.04
Seth: Perhaps not most, but specifically I disagree with those who consider got to be something undefineable or consider him simply a force or power, and atheists. I believe that God is the father of our spirits and that he isn't only a spirit, but also has a perfect immortal body. More importantly, I believe that he is personally interested in each of our lives, individually and he wants us to know the truth about him. He'll guide any sincere seeker of the truth to find it eventually, but he won't make our choices for us and he won't force us to believe one way or another. It's up to each individual to decide what they believe is true. Even though I beleive that my church is led by revelation from God, I take personal responsibility for my beliefs, rather than just blindly accept whatever I hear at church, and the church teaches that all of us should take such responsibility.
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:23 / 13.12.04
It turns out that rumours of Flew's conversion were greatly exaggerated.
 
 
alas
19:07 / 13.12.04
I believe that God is the father of our spirits and that he isn't only a spirit, but also has a perfect immortal body

And that God is a "he"? Why?
 
 
Aertho
19:41 / 13.12.04
I smell Mormon.
 
 
Loomis
08:44 / 14.12.04
HABERMAS: Once you mentioned to me that your view might be called Deism. Do you think that would be a fair designation?

FLEW: Yes, absolutely right
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:04 / 14.12.04
A bit wierd, although it echoes what I said above. Certain conceptions of god just aren't specific enough to be at odds with atheism, or at least some formulations of atheism.

Flew looks like he is in that sort of position, since in the article I linked to (dated after the Habermas interview) he says,

I remain still what I have been now for over fifty years, a negative atheist. By this I mean that I construe the initial letter in the word 'atheist' in the way in which everyone construes the same initial letter in such words as 'atypical' and 'amoral'. For I still believe that it is impossible either to verify or to falsify - to show to be false - what David Hume in his Dialogues concerning Natural Religion happily described as "the religious hypothesis."

An atheistic deist, apparently.
 
 
Loomis
09:21 / 14.12.04
Curiouser and curiouser. It's tricky to pinpoint publication dates when articles have been "reprinted" on the net. According to this site, Flew's affirmation of atheism was published in 2001, whereas the page you linked to has the date as 2004.

Clearly however his god has little in common with any religious god, so there's not much reason for theists to delight in his "conversion":

"I think we need here a fundamental distinction between the God of Aristotle or Spinoza and the Gods of the Christian and the Islamic Revelations."

But his reason for taking that little step away from atheism is interesting:

"My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species ... [In fact] the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms."
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:59 / 15.12.04
To answer the original question, I'm, as ever, perched extremely stylishly on the fence, this time between agnosticism and atheism. When it comes to the various flavours of God a la organised religion I'm an atheist, I see organised religion as political tools for domination and subjegation. Of course, they could be these and one of them could still be right so my position here is one of faith and also a calculated two fingers to their God if It exists. After the Last Battle I'll be sitting with the dwarves in their hut neh?

When it comes to a non-religious God I'm more agnostic. It amused me that when I discovered gnosticism through The Invisibles and related discussion that this was similar to what I was thinking in my early teens, if there was a God He neither had any hand in development on earth any more and was deaf to/didn't care about our prayers. He wasn't aware of our existence or was constrained from contact, he was a Doctor Who alien scientist or some MPD victim we dreamt into alwaysexistence. I felt that it was quite possible for something to come and start life off but had probably left before we were evolved enough to think up a name for Him.

I've found theism a very useful tool for writing. When I was planning my 100 book 5 year epic storyline it started off as unnamed cosmic forces and I quickly realised it was a storyline about God and anti-God. The oldest story. With that realisation a lot fell in to place, including my dissatisfaction with organised religion and Christianity.

Then I gave up the writing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:09 / 15.12.04
I believe that God is the father of our spirits and that he isn't only a spirit, but also has a perfect immortal body.

Interesting... what does this body look like? A human's, presumably, but how big is it? What colour is its hair? and, perhaps most of all, what does he *use* it for?
 
 
Ganesh
13:38 / 15.12.04
Specifically, what does the penis do? Does God wank?
 
 
Seth
01:36 / 16.12.04
Does God wank?

What else would you do if you were omnipotent?
 
 
Ganesh
07:38 / 16.12.04
I dunno. Conjure up some Viagra, perhaps?
 
 
Sir Real
11:45 / 16.12.04
Does God wank?

Have you seen Alabama?

I meant the state, but it works for the band too.
 
 
alas
15:31 / 16.12.04
what do you think rain is? God is a woman, and it's a massive female ejaculation every time it rains.
 
 
HCE
12:52 / 18.12.04
I wonder how those of you who have a feeling or longing which you attribute to God, those who say you just know because you have something God-shaped within you -- how do you know that's God? What makes you think the name for that is 'God'? It seems to me that if one has a sense of some kind of presence or energy, it is sufficient to say, "I have this feeling that there's something within me, a presence of some sort."

I don't think it's meaningful to say I feel some 'thing' and that thing I call God. I could just as well say I feel a sense of depression and I call it God, or I feel heartburn and I call it God. The word God is quite loaded, particularly when you use it almost like a name. Not a god, but God. Can I believe in a creator deity and say I'm an atheist, because that's what atheism is to me? It's not really meaningful. I am willing to accept that the notion of God may be looser than that of atheism, but I wonder how the case is made that belief in God can simply mean having some kind of 'feeling'.
 
 
HCE
12:57 / 18.12.04
"My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species ... [In fact] the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms."

That's a pretty murky statement. What can it mean? Science has given up? It's been proven impossible somewhere, and this is generally accepted?

I have never been a big fan of saying, 'I don't have an answer, therefore God.' Why not just stop at, 'I don't have an answer?'

I think alas said this already, though.
 
 
Quantum
14:23 / 18.12.04
As an ex-atheist magician/mystic I find myself believing in (my conception of) God more than I do the objective material world. Over the years my opinion has swooped from a fierce rejection of traditional monotheism, through an exploration of Eastern paradigms and different conceptions of the Deity, settling into a mystic 'God is within you and is the essence of consciousness' position. I'm more certain of the divine nature of consciousness than I am of the 'common sense' world, as were Descartes and a bunch of other clever folk I think.
Having said that my opposition to organised religion remains, slightly mellowed with age- love God, hate the church.
 
 
Seth
14:35 / 18.12.04
Having said that my opposition to organised religion remains, slightly mellowed with age- love God, hate the church.

If only life could be so wonderfully simple. Only I can’t bring myself to hate the church, because I know it too well. It’s full of people doing their best with the options they see themselves as having. Yeah, there are people who sometimes display what I see as bigoted and idiotic behaviour, but you’ll find that anywhere. Yeah, there are people who do their best to accept and love and understand. You’ll find that anywhere, too.

Let’s not dive into simplistic thinking just for the sake of a nice soundbite, Quantum. More mellowing to do?
 
 
HCE
14:55 / 18.12.04
"settling into a mystic 'God is within you and is the essence of consciousness' position"

That's just what I'm asking about. Why call it 'God' -- why isn't 'the essence of consciousness' sufficient? Do you think the 'essence of consciousness' created the material world? If so, how, and how do you know?

What are some of your experiences that led you to this belief?
 
 
Seth
15:10 / 18.12.04
I'd be interested in reading nightclub dwight answering hir own question. Why might one call it God, assuming that there is a good reason for doing so?
 
 
Michelle Gale
16:15 / 18.12.04
.
I tend to think all these religions and beliefs that go with them are just products of social forces, even rationality, None of this stuff has any meaning outside the context of human interaction. Its just a framework for a power dynamic (Uh check ma vocabulair!)

if that makes any sense...im not sure it does
 
 
Seth
17:08 / 18.12.04
What kind of power? To what end?
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
11:08 / 19.12.04
I'd say that I believe in a supreme God. It ties in to the concept of infinity, doesn't it? "That which nothing greater can be concieved," etc.

Of course, if God is all-powerful, one of God's powers would have be to not be all-powerful. And, for that matter, to not exist.

I didn't claim to understand, did I?
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
11:16 / 19.12.04
And no, this god doesn't have a pee-pee. No, I don't believe in heaven.

On my nicer days, I'd say that the human brain can only access god through aspects of it's true nature, such as Ganesh, Allah, or YHVH.

On my more curmudgeonly days, I'd say that a supreme power created the universe, but found something better to do a few years later and hasn't been involved since.
 
  

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