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What exactly does get you banned on Barbelith?

 
  

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Tryphena Absent
20:47 / 24.08.06
Ganesh I have a question for you-

To me the post that you link to in your thread on mental health indicates that you didn't believe that Shadowsax's comments were enough to get him banned. Alternatively it's plausible that you put faith in the "a poster can change" view. However you also commented in your thread thread that we can suggest all kinds of eventuality, can't we?, thus implying that you don't believe in future-telling. That suggests to me that you don't believe in banning as a viable method of dealing with people unless you perceive it as benefiting them. Is that correct? If not then what are your individual boundaries?
 
 
Ganesh
20:50 / 24.08.06
Umm, could you reiterate the post in question here, Nina? I've linked to quite a few so far, and am unsure exactly which one you mean.
 
 
Ganesh
20:52 / 24.08.06
Also, while perfectly happy to answer the question, I'd ask in what way my own personal boundaries are directly relevant to this thread.
 
 
33
01:41 / 25.08.06
Has 33 done anything to signal that level of introspection and consideration is apparent? He hasn't apologised, after all.



i just wrote a great big message to this that got deleted..so i will condense..

I am sorry if i offended anyone Haus has got it just about right , there was no malicious intent at all .

My mistake and my executuion I suppose .. I am tired and a relapse last year after I did that site has contributed , along with failures / bad luck , in me becoming even more impatient and frustrated , angry

No excuse i agree but i think every human has its limitations and that site only details some of them ( theres more beleive it or not )

Again this is no excuse I cant really say more , I miscalculated and I amongst other things..

If anything I subconciously think I created a little dramr to try and distract myself and it that sense it could of been anything - i just took some admitted annoyances and connected them with things i knew little about it in the grand scale of things..

So thats it...

It seems a bit pointless now though id like to try and presue interaction with those that might be willing to still talk to me - esp about the problem on my site
i am not holding my breath..

Thank you at least for cosnidering my case

-----------------------------------------------------------

I am not going to add any more to this than I already have,
an apology implies an understanding of why that person was sorry.

Apart from the odd exception like those threads I try to say what I mean..

If you want evidence of any anti gay behaviour beyond that or anything else I challange you to find it ..

Suffice to say that let me end this by saying I am not one for judging others considering how my situation has lead me to being judged or boo hood by the majority, its not my way and if thats too hard for you to understand then maybe you should to try it yourself ..

Paranoid Write has I think - perhaps ironically - proven more than any one to me , even if I did have discrimnations WHICH I DONT - that hes more than willing to try and see past what others want to see here and regardless of what happens here I appauld him for that.

I cant say I esp like the tone or demands here of some when i have other more pressing concerns that are more important that answering to someone who doesnt even have the deceny to answer me in like but its no biggie , life goes on whether I am on this board or not.

amen
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:33 / 28.08.06
So... where are we now? Waiting on Tom?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:30 / 28.08.06
Yes, due back somewhere mid/late next week I believe.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:58 / 28.08.06
Ganesh I think your personal boundaries are relevant because you specifically talk about subjective stance elsewhere. If that is relevant with regards to banning then I think it has to be questioned when your approach depends so distinctly on the individual. I need a clear picture of your approach to understand your arguments on the general topic. I think by now you probably understand that my approach is pretty level, that my judgement rests solely on what has been said by a person and that I put community above individuals because I feel my boundary has to logically lie there.

The post was this one. Specifically the discussion of style over content.
 
 
Ganesh
23:02 / 28.08.06
I'll do my best, then, to formulate a "clear picture" of my approach. This may take me a while (I'm rather unfocussed, at present) and it may not be within this thread - but I'll give your question some thought.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:14 / 28.08.06
Thanks, I'd appreciate it if you'd link me to it if you do find it relates to another thread rather than this one.
 
 
Ganesh
08:11 / 29.08.06
All right. I've decided to post here after all, rather than the ShadowSax discussion or the 'mentally ill posters' one, although my answer could be shoehorned into either thread. One reason I've had to think about this is, I think, because the general principles on which I make the 'should x be banned' decision, in each individual case, have evolved fairly organically over the course of Barbelith's span, with the relative handful of posters who've been booted off the board. These principles arise from my own attempts, as a moderator (and, previously, admin), to 'interpret' Tom's edicts (I appreciate that the linked one is about post/thread deletion rather than banning, but it enumerates what Tom thinks of as "actual abuses") as well as reflecting my own personal priorities, my professional training and my experience with the now-banned individuals, on and occasionally off Barbelith. As I've said elsewhere, I'm increasingly seeing similarities with the Real Life framework within which Mental Health Act assessments and assessments of capacity (of various sorts) are conducted.

I'm taking "personal boundaries" to mean the generalities along which I, personally, reach an opinion on whether or not someone ought to be banned. Note that, while I think my own decision-making process is a valid (and fair) one, I fully appreciate that others have different priorities, and will reach their conclusion via a different route. Tom's given us broad guidelines which, inevitably, we apply on an individual basis; the bigger question, I suppose, is how we structure any given banning process to either take all of these individual approaches into account, or try to streamline/systematise them. In a way, I'm quite glad that spamming/trolling/harassing behaviour on Barbelith hasn't been so bad that we've had to do this as yet.

All of which is a bit of a tangent. So anyway. When addressing "harassment, sustained trolling, libel, spam and the like", I'll generally be thinking along the following lines:

There should be, generally speaking, a high threshold for banning people. Plenty of room for moveable-feastiness within this, I'm sure.

What demonstrable effect has this had on the community, and what's the likely future effect? I'm with you on generally prioritising the integrity of the community as a whole, but harassment, say, is frequently targeted at individual posters, so impact on individuals/Barbelith will generally overlap rather than be completely distinct. I'm also aware that this community is made up of individuals with widely varying opinions, so the defining of intangibles ("misogyny", "homophobia", "snark") is always going to be imperfect, consensus rather than absolutes.

And, to a lesser extent,

What demonstrable effect has this had on the individual (mooted for banning), and what's the likely future effect? I certainly wouldn't posit this as strongly as not believing in banning unless it benefits the bannee, but it's been something I not atypically try to factor into my analysis, albeit as a minor concern. Examples would be strong evidence of mental illness, which may push the decision-to-ban either way, and probably shades into

Is the continued presence/interaction of [proposed bannee] viable? This is perhaps where my own approach most differs from yours, Nina, and I'm aware that it irritates those who might not see the element of 'future potential' as relevant. 'Viability' would encompass things like the possibility/probability of constructive change, and someone's ability/willingness to adjust their outlook and/or mode of engagement sufficiently to be accepted here. This also hinges, obviously, on the community's ability/willingness to accept them, and I'm aware that this particular dynamic can fluctuate over time and between individual Barbeloids.

It's in the assessment of 'viability' that I like to try to gain a sense of someone's posting style(s) - whether antagonistic or conciliatory, flexible or limited, insightless or self-reflective, fixed or tolerant of doubt - and, ideally, I prefer to do this by engaging in a dialogue with them myself. In this way, I'll form an opinion - a subjective one, certainly, but arguably an 'expert' one, since these are qualities I'm called upon to assess on a daily basis in my work, and I think I'm reasonably good at it.

(Of course, it's perfectly possible to regard any opinion on possible/probable change as specious "future-telling". I'd argue that it's more possible to tentatively gauge future posting viability with an individual poster who's here and talking than it is to divine the perhaps-behaviour of hypothetical posters who are either equivocally absent or might have decided not to join. I generally wouldn't allow the speculated-upon opinions of such ghosts in the ether to influence my should-we-ban-x decision. I may include 'future potential' in my decision-making process, but I tend to confine this to posters who're actually present and available for questioning on the board.)

Stuff that happens off-board may be of relevance. Usually not, but I wouldn't discount it. It's tricky and it complicates things, but off-board interaction might well be a factor in an individual instance of harassment, say, and might legitimately be included in the banning decision.

What precedent does this set? Given the changing nature of individuals, the community itself and the Internet in general, I think it's probably impossible not to think about this, even in a vague sense. It is vague, and a minor consideration, but it's there at the back of my mind when I'm addressing the question of banning someone. I realise this could be seen to cut across my assertion that I generally don't factor in "what if someone somewhere reads this and decides Barbelith's too 'ist' for them to join". It's probably fair to say I'm thinking more of the implications for the treatment of future newbies who post in an abrasive or challenging way.

I'm aware that there's considerable scope for debate around each one of these points, but that's all I'll say for now. Interesting exercise; thankyou, Nina.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:05 / 31.08.06
Cross-posted from the Temple thread, as requested...
Aren't I slow? I've only just worked out that khorosho is the poster formerly known as CroMagnet, of infamous memory. See here, here, and most especially here.

If it was up to me I'd be eyeing the banhammer about now.


Thoughts?
 
 
Aertho
11:18 / 31.08.06
Where can one find hir most recent contributions to Barbelith?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:20 / 31.08.06
Here.
 
 
Aertho
11:25 / 31.08.06
Yes. Okay. I'm ready to vote.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:31 / 31.08.06
I've already PMed the poster in question with a link to this bit of the thread, BTW. Khorosho, feel free to step in anytime...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:34 / 31.08.06
The 'God is imaginary' thread seems like a different case to the other ones, stupidity rather than racist twaddle. And has ze been a regular poster between the first posts and the latest ones?

I've PMed hir to ask them to take part in this discussion.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:46 / 31.08.06
There's deadbabygate as well, in which we see a manifestation of the same kind of thing as in the God thread--straw man arguments being wheeled out, then being wheeled out again, becoming abusive when challenged, ect.
 
 
Aertho
12:03 / 31.08.06
Khoro's intentions seem plain. He wants to hurt and shock others, under the safe guise of challenging presumptions.

Barbelith is place for challenging discourse, where one is encouraged to ask questions civilly.

He seems to be a MAD SAD and LONELY boy characteristically crowded by people in his offline environment. He can push all he wants to get the space he needs to be and think for himself, but his abusive intention is not welcome here.

Feel free to skewer what "intentions" mean in regards to Barbelith.
 
 
Quantum
13:43 / 31.08.06
I'd support a ban. Sheesh.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:14 / 31.08.06
stupidity rather than racist twaddle

Hmm, I dunno. Racist, no. But Christian-bashing's not any nicer than Muslim-bashing, surely. Just because the demographic's different, I'm not sure that makes it any less, well... nasty.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:35 / 31.08.06
I'd say that telling people to 'stop spoiling the fun' when they challenge racist jokes is a bit racist myself. And then there's this, of course. The thread in the Temple was largely an attack on those stoopid Xtians, true, but included Islamophobia in its remit.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:16 / 31.08.06
I hate to say this, and seem like I don't know what's going on, but that's been referenced a couple of times today, and given that other posts by the same suit have been dead offensive, I've prepared to believe that is too... but I've never heard the phrase "ai pappi" anywhere else. What does it mean, and why is it offensive? I'm asking this in a sense of complete honesty and, well, naivete, I guess.
 
 
Aertho
16:24 / 31.08.06
It's language used to signify Latin Americans. "Ai Pappi" is this case refers to the casting of Jessica Alba as Sue Storm. Apparently her ancestry meant she was a bad choice. Rather than just saying that, khoro chose to use slang. Not sure "ai pappi" can be considered wholly offensive in and of itself, but in context, and with regard to the history of the author, I'd say so.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:34 / 31.08.06
Thank you. That's been bugging me for ages, but, well, the moment had passed, and I didn't like to ask.

Given the context I can well believe that was out of order.
 
 
Chiropteran
17:59 / 31.08.06
There were also, in the same post, the "looking a bit south of the border" and "going all United Colors of Bennetton" bits, for some added context.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:46 / 31.08.06
Yeah, I got the rest (so I'm not saying the reaction was unfair, far from it), it was just that one phrase that was a mystery.
 
 
Chiropteran
22:59 / 31.08.06
Yeah, sorry - I didn't mean to suggest that you (Stoat) had somehow missed that. I was just bringing the rest of the supporting context from the offending post into this thread for easy reference (probably without good reason).
 
 
Olulabelle
23:33 / 31.08.06
It's fairly impossible not to notice.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:40 / 01.09.06
I'm usually very much on the 'Oh go on, give them another chance ... they haven't said anything that bad ...' side of things.

But in this case, I'd have no problem at all with seeing the guy tarred, then feathered, and thuh-rown out of the joint to a bumpy landing. The sort of pernicious, low-level gibberish he's been peddling here for years should, like all tragedies, be brought to a conclusion.

And if it has to be bloody, oh well.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:38 / 01.09.06
Lepidopteran- no probs. I didn't think you were.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:29 / 01.09.06
Oh, just so people know, Tom has PMed me to say he's banned 33.
 
 
Quantum
17:25 / 01.09.06
Sweeeeeeet relieeeef.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:39 / 03.09.06
No word yet from Khorosho. I thought at least I'd have got an angry PM by now.

While we're thinking about getting the banhammer out, what's going on with Morph these days? I know he was still on the board as of a few weeks back because he popped up briefly to troll the "Burning down the Haus..." thread. Are we still putting up with him? Why?
 
 
Ganesh
17:29 / 03.09.06
Hm. Morpheus.

I was thinking about this the other day (possibly in pixels, on your blog, Mordant). I suspect it's largely because Morpheus isn't present in the sustained way some difficult posters have been: he tends to pop up, say something snarksome and/or unintentionally ridiculous (which we generally 'banish with laughter'), then disappear again for a spell. He has a knack of fading away just before his annoyingness builds up to ban-him levels - to my mind, anyway.

For me, there's also the wider (perennial) issue of how and when the "banhammer" should be used. I suppose I tend to think we should have a relatively high threshold for calling for people to be banned; I don't want to be actively looking at banning posters, if it can be avoided. Morpheus hasn't really impinged on my posting consciousness to such an extent that that discussion's become unavoidable. As I see it, anyway. I'm aware that there's gonna be a range of opinion on this.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:37 / 03.09.06
Also quite possibly because the only person with the ability to ban other members remains Tom, who - and I know I'm repeating myself here, but still - simply isn't here frequently enough for that to be a practical solution.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's anybody else around here nowadays who I'd trust to use that level of power properly.
 
  

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