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So where do we go now (but nowhere)?

 
  

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ibis the being
16:58 / 03.11.04
As for discouraging youth voters - well, they might have registered, but they didn't show up at the polls in any greater numbers than in 2000. 1 in 10 voters in the 18-24 range actually voted, and the voters in the 30-44 age range was actually down from 2000.

Are you sure those are the figures? I thought the overall number of voters was up, and the percentage of voters who were aged 18-24 was the same - that means there were actually more young voters, only the proportions stayed the same. Newscasters and pundits keep screwing it up, which is it?
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
18:19 / 03.11.04
I kept telling myself over and over, with the youth vote at record levels, and the youth going overwhelmingly Kerry or third-party, it's only ten or twenty years before things start really getting better in this country.

God, if only. The truth is that the youth vote has always been for the leftist party and the elderly vote for the more conservative. Which means that the young voters, when they have money and families and nervous breakdowns, will one day become that which they hate. Sad but true.

We don't have time to "grow out of it". If the democrats can't beat bush, what hope is there for America? I'm stuck here for the next eight months (at least), but at least it's a heavily leftist town. How much worse can it get, right?

No, don't answer that. Thank god for my EU passport.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:43 / 03.11.04
Democrats Begin Soul-Searching After Election Defeat

Yahoo News

"I think this is a realigning election. The Democrats are going to have to get used to permanent minority status for a generation or two," said Tom Schaller, a political scientist at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County.

"The party doesn't know what it stands for any more. The Republicans have built majorities around their ideas, which can be boiled down to a few simple statements. The Democrats fish around for issues where they think there already are majorities," said Schaller, a Democrat.

If one topic dominated the post-election talk, it was strength of social issues like abortion and same-sex marriage as a force President Bush (news - web sites) successfully used to motivate and energize millions of voters.

"The Republicans have been successful in framing themselves as the defenders of American traditions -- of religious traditions, family traditions, and I think they have successfully painted the Democrats all too often as contrary to those values," said Barack Obama, newly elected senator from Illinois whose victory provided one of the few bright spots for Democrats on Tuesday.

Schaller said it was extraordinary that many voters in key states seemed more worried about same-sex marriage than the war in Iraq (news - web sites). At the same time, Republicans persuaded millions of people who lacked health insurance to vote against what they portrayed as a Democratic Party plot to put health care under the control of government bureaucrats.

In Georgia, a state where Democrats were highly competitive as recently as eight years ago, a referendum banning same-sex marriage passed with 76 percent of the vote and Bush won the presidential ballot by 18 percentage points.

GUNS, GOD, GAYS

"The Democrats' positions on guns, God and gays has alienated millions of suburban and rural voters. The party needs to find a way to talk to them again if it is going to win national elections but it won't be easy," said University of Texas political scientist Bruce Buchanan.

Republican political consultant Bill Greener said people in the nation's "heartland," where Republicans racked up one victory over another, often saw urban Democrats on the East and West Coasts as smug and elitist.

"If you project a view that people who express strong religious faith are a threat, people who hold that faith are going to feel a sense of resentment," he said.

In many ways, the Democrats have become a coalition of minorities -- blacks, homosexuals, Jews, the unmarried and the unreligious. Bush's political strategist Karl Rove characterized the typical Democrat as "somebody with a doctorate ... people who imbibed the values of the sixties and seventies and stuck with them."

In the immediate term, the battle for the soul of the Democratic Party is likely to be between those on the left led by former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites), who will argue that the party needs to sharpen its differences with Republicans, and those who would like to see the party find a way to appeal again to middle class and rural voters who appear to have written the party off.

"We're sick and tired of losing," said Steve Achelpohl, head of the Nebraska Democratic Party. "There are a lot of angry candidates out here because our candidates were better qualified, and they didn't win."
 
 
Ganesh
18:54 / 03.11.04
Where now? Well, to an outsider, it's looking like a clash between the "faith-based" and the "reality-based", with the former apparently in the ascendant - and that scares the fuck out of me. One worst-case scenario is that the Democratic Party, "sick of losing", decides to dumb down, jettison anything too nuanced, and attempts to embrace a "moral" worldview based more on skewed Christianity than on actual evidence.

Elsewhere, in the rest of the planet, I foresee the rise and rise of anti-Americanism, specifically a growing hostility toward those "stupid" American Christians who voted the mass-murderer back in. The high number of voters and apparent popular mandate make it harder to accept the "it's not Americans that are hateful, it's their hijacked administration" line of reasoning.
 
 
at the scarwash
18:56 / 03.11.04
This is the only thing that has given me some solace - that the US is going through a Victorian period of conservative religious/moral values & intolerancy and will grow out of it in the long-term as a nation.

It's funny; I was thinking last night that it was more like Weimar Germany right before things got really bad.
 
 
Cherielabombe
19:31 / 03.11.04
"We're sick and tired of losing," said Steve Achelpohl, head of the Nebraska Democratic Party.

This is exactly what the Republicans said after Clinton won in 1996. I'm really disappointed, and frankly just a little dumb-founded. I mean we got Really. Badly. Beaten.

And I fear for abortion rights, for separation of church and state, and I fear for what Bush will do on the international front.

But I also strangely feel energized. I just feel like we have to look at ourselves and restructure our game plan. I'm going to have to fight harder and smarter. "Some of my best friends' (families)" are Republican and they're really normal people. I say this because I don't think the Democratic party has to tbe in the minority for the next decade - I think we can reach these people. They have to be shown that, for example, equal rights for minorities is What Jesus Would Do. And probably more important than anything, we have to be ready for anything and ready to resist.

*sigh*
 
 
Cherielabombe
20:02 / 03.11.04
From the daily kos. I'm posting the whole thing, because the site's very slow to load (undooubtedly getting lots of hits) and because I think it's a bit inspiring in this dark hour.

OK. I read thousands of comments and dozens of Diaries last night and this morning. And you know something? I’m going to forget I read most of them. Just erase them from memory along with the names of those who posted them. Chalk them up to adrenaline crashes, too much rage and reefer and booze.

Because what I found in my reading was a plethora of bashing Christians, bashing Kerry, bashing gays, bashing Edwards, bashing Kos, bashing America and bashing each other. As well as a lot of people saying they’re abandoning the Democrats, abandoning politics, abandoning the country. This descent into despair and irrationality and surrender puts icing on the Republican victory cake.

Why were we in this fight in the first place? Because terrible leaders are doing terrible things to our country and calling this wonderful. Because radical reactionaries are trying to impose their imperialist schemes on whoever they wish and calling this just. Because amoral oligarchs are determined to enhance their slice of the economic pie and calling this the natural order. Because flag-wrapped ideologues want to chop up civil liberties and call this security. Because myopians are in charge of America’s future.

We lost on 11/2. Came in second place in a crucial battle whose damage may still be felt decades from now. The despicable record of our foes makes our defeat good reason for disappointment and fear. Even without a mandate over the past four years, they have behaved ruthlessly at home and abroad, failing to listen to objections even from members of their own party. With the mandate of a 3.6-million vote margin, one can only imagine how far their arrogance will take them in their efforts to dismantle 70 years of social legislation and 50+ years of diplomacy.
Still, Tuesday was only one round in the struggle. It’s only the end if we let it be. I am not speaking solely of challenging the votes in Ohio or elsewhere – indeed, I think even successful challenges are unlikely to change the ultimate outcome, which is not to say I don’t think the Democrats should make the attempt. And I’m not just talking about evaluating in depth what went wrong, then building on what was started in the Dean campaign to reinvigorate the grassroots of the Democratic Party, although I also think we must do that. I’m talking about the broader political realm, the realm outside of electoral politics that has always pushed America to live up to its best ideals and overcome its most grotesque contradictions.

Not a few people have spoken in the past few hours about an Americanist authoritarianism emerging out of the country’s current leadership. I think that’s not far-fetched. Fighting this requires that we stick together, not bashing each other, not fleeing or hiding or yielding to the temptation of behaving as if “what’s the use?”

It’s tough on the psyche to be beaten.Throughout our country’s history, abolitionists, suffragists, union organizers, anti-racists, antiwarriors, civil libertarians, feminists and gay rights activists have challenged the majority of Americans to take off their blinders. Each succeeded one way or another, but not overnight, and certainly not without serious setbacks.

After a decent interval of licking our wounds and pondering what might have been and where we went wrong, we need to spit out our despair and return – united - to battling those who have for the moment outmaneuvered us. Otherwise, we might just as well lie down in the street and let them flatten us with their schemes.
 
 
Professor Silly
20:08 / 03.11.04
First off--everyone has assumed the youth vote would go towards Kerry. I have seen a jump in numbers of young Republicans in the local colleges and at my work. There are a lot of suburban-raised young adults who very much believe in their parents' Christian ideas. ("All your children are poor unfortunate victims of systems beyond their control--a plague upon your systems to the gray dispair of your ugly life." Frank Zappa)

Second--it wasn't the overwhelming Republican victory everyone is claiming. The fact that it was as close as it was is very telling: nearly half the electorate already hates Bush. He's in a terribly position, really. I think he will fail on many fronts and will alienate all but the evangelicals in the process. Meanwhile (some of) his subordinates will be looking to cinch the 2008 nomination, and might disagree more readily with Bush's unpopular decisions. Besides that, here in Colorado (considered a strict Republican state), not only did we elect a Democrat for the Senate, but the Democrats took over both sides of the State Congress. Working on the local level gets so much more accomplished than the national level!!! The House of Representatives changes every two years, and local election happen every year in most places. We needn't wait.

Third--maybe it's not all bad. Assuming Bush doesn't lead us into another invasion (that's my big concern) we might see a trend towards decentralization and some odd ramifications. Fiscal conservatives are screaming for legalization and taxing of marijuana, for instance. Combine that with the public's lusting over Canadian drugs, and the proposed changes to the tax laws, and we might just see an end of government telling us what we can and can't do with our bodies. Sure they want to abolish abortion...and they might just do it. I don't believe it will last long--just like alcohol prohabition it will get overturned once people see what a mistake it will be.

Finally, for the first time the internet played a pivotal role in an election. All the newcasters had laptops by their side, and a lot of us turned towards cybercommunication in the past few months instead of the corporate television channels. Looking forward, I think more people will stay tuned in, and a microscope will be put on this administration. Sure we here at Barbelith all knew the facts of Bush's record before "Farenheit 9/11" came out--in the next four years we should see more people keeping themselves informed. I hope that Truth will win next time around, rather than lies and fear-mongering.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:16 / 03.11.04
Sooo....Wesley Clark and Barak Obama in 2008?

One thing that helps me get through this is thinking of who the Dems will have in 2008. Of course, I know personalities in politics come and go, and those who are prominent now might be no longer prominent in 3 years; likewise, new faces come onto the scene who we have no idea about now.
 
 
ibis the being
20:53 / 03.11.04
But I also strangely feel energized. I just feel like we have to look at ourselves and restructure our game plan. I'm going to have to fight harder and smarter. "Some of my best friends' (families)" are Republican and they're really normal people. I say this because I don't think the Democratic party has to tbe in the minority for the next decade - I think we can reach these people. They have to be shown that, for example, equal rights for minorities is What Jesus Would Do.

I admire the spirit of your post but I strongly disagree. Some of my best friends are Republican too - my entire family, my boyfriend's entire family, and a member of our inner circle of friends. And they can't be reached. Not in the way you're hoping. They'll never be convinced that Jesus would give homosexuals equal rights, EVER. And they think racial minorities should work hard to earn equal rights, because it's discipline, not compassion, that's at the heart of the Religious Right. They believe higher learning, philosophy, sociology, anthrology - these are all seductions placed in the world by Satan to lure believers away from the fold. Trust me, trust me. I could go on for miles explaining the fundamentalist mindset but I won't, this isn't the place.

So how do we fight? That's what I want to know. I don't have money to donate to Democratic causes, and I'm not sure I would if I did at this point. Protests haven't gotten us anywhere. What do we do now
 
 
grant
20:54 / 03.11.04
Some nice words can be found at Talking Points Memo.
 
 
betty woo
20:57 / 03.11.04
ibis: no idea on the youth vote, I can't find my original source for those figures and every report I come across says something slightly different. Most sources seem to agree that the number of young voters went up, but the percentage within the overall voters remained constant because of the general increase in voting this year.
 
 
Ganesh
21:22 / 03.11.04
And they can't be reached. Not in the way you're hoping. They'll never be convinced that Jesus would give homosexuals equal rights, EVER. And they think racial minorities should work hard to earn equal rights, because it's discipline, not compassion, that's at the heart of the Religious Right. They believe higher learning, philosophy, sociology, anthrology - these are all seductions placed in the world by Satan to lure believers away from the fold. Trust me, trust me. I could go on for miles explaining the fundamentalist mindset but I won't, this isn't the place.

To a certain extent, I agree with this, and it's one of the factors in my current hopeless funk. The first time I came up against that rock-solid fundamentalist certainty was three years ago, when I came out as gay to my Baptist aunt: I've talked to many, many deluded, psychotic people, but rarely have I experienced that degree of conviction, an almost-total elimination of doubt. Following this encounter, I spent a couple of years on mainly-American Christian websites, exploring variations of that mindset (before finally getting exasperated and fucking off out of it all), and I remain in slightly horrified awe of that obsession with spiritual 'purity', that proud inflexibility.

Of course, the flipside is that there's a whole spectrum of Christians who interpret the Bible differently, who cleave to the separation of Church and State, etc., etc. I guess I'd always assumed the extremists (as I perceived them) to constitute the minority, the rump. The apparent ascension of "faith-based" reasoning - to the extent that elections are, it appears, won or lost on how "comfortable" the populace feel with a given candidate's "moral values" over any amount of evidence or any number of stupid, pointless deaths - chills me to the bone. The prospect of an increasingly-powerful bloc of people who hold beliefs like my aunt's using those beliefs as the basis for aggressive global policy is utterly terrifying to me.

I suppose we can only hope that the more flexible, "reality-based" strains of Christianity prevail...
 
 
vajramukti
22:40 / 03.11.04

Having pased through a day of crushing despair and horror, I too feel strangely invigorated. this process has galvanised the public like never before, all over the earth. i truly believe that. I feel it in every cell of my body.


It's gut check time. I'll admit that was naive about this. i thought after all the evidence of wrongdoing, all the missteps of the bushites, all the impassioned mobilisation, that surely it would be enough, surely the people would see reason.

more the fool me. it's not that easy. simple as that. it's not going to be that easy. if you want a braver, saner, more loving world, it's gotta be your full time job. there aren't enough of us out there. too many people are terrfied, delusional, and filled with varying degrees of hate. treating cultural change like a hobby isn't getting the job done.

none of us can afford to kick back and watch the sopranos
while we laugh at 'the chimp' for flailing around during his speech where he just happened to, y'know insitute a draft of everyone under thirty.

this shit is not funny anymore. I said it before and I'll say it again. the chimp fucking won. and if we continue to screw around, his ilk will continue to win, until we see fit to get our act together once and for all. the fact that these sickingly blatant liars, remorseless criminals and incompetants run our planet is scathing endictment of our species.

what is it going to take before we treat this for what is? this is survival. this is about the future. this is our human dignity at stake. people have given thier bloody lives for much less than that.

who are we not to fight this battle with every drop of blood and sweat?
 
 
Ganesh
23:08 / 03.11.04
Suggestions?
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:16 / 03.11.04
Run for office.
 
 
Mister Snee
00:28 / 04.11.04
Hey! I was all worried about having to remember my username and password but it turns out I've got some kinda handy dandy cookie or something! ^-^

Hi everyone, you don't remember me anymore but I still love you guys, and I'm still a big compassionate lefty, and I just want to mention that I'm absolutely climbing the walls trying to think of SOME, ANY action to take! SOME WAY not to lie down and let more and more of the same happen. What can I do? It's utterly disillusioning. I feel like I've spent the last several years shouting advice at characters in a film. "Don't open that door! Shit, OF COURSE he did!"

I'll do something. I mean it. I'll join your company or your volunteer group or your army. I'll write you an article and I'd give you money if I had any. If you have an idea that might actually make this planet a little safer and saner and roll back some of the damage that's been done, I'll help. I really will. Nothing else seems more important to me, not even all the crappy personal crap that used to weigh on me all the time. That crap's crap now. I'm cured! I seriously feel way better about myself now that the world is doing so much worse.

I WANT to help. I know the world NEEDS help. I know we all need to be out there, everyone sane, everyone who's capable of changing their mind once in a while and of asking other people how they'd feel about their actions before they act, making a "full-time job" of rehabilitating our species. But what does that job ENTAIL?

So just to contribute an echo... what exactly, gentlemen, DO we DO?
 
 
vajramukti
00:46 / 04.11.04


suggestions?

yeah okay I'll bite. feel like i've wrung out like an emotional rag but i'll bite.

in general I cannot presume to say anyone should do anything differently. each to their own. what i propose is renewed commitment, and realignment of priorities. i feel like we've let western culture sink into an irony-hole sometimes. we're busy making jokes about the simpsons while the religious right is working day and night to outlaw homosexuality. at a certain point you have to look at yourself and ask whether or not our priorities are a bit skewed. i know i have.

I'm sure we all know yeats: the best lack all conviction and the worst are filled with passionate intensity.

wtf man? what happened to us?


and just so i don't sound uterly wish wash i'll make some concrete proposals

1. the legal attack. the electoral process is too damn slow and hopelessly resistant to anything but huge amounts of cash. serious efforts are better spent attacking bush and the neocons legally. there are litterly dozens or lawsuits in the pipe and dozen more pending for everything from falsifing intelligence to civil suits for negligent death on 9-11. this is much more direct route for your time money and energy right there.

2. consolidation of the oppostion. there's no doubt whatsoever that this event has resulted in disenfranchisement and frustration like never before. anyone who preaches appeasment in the name of national unity is out to lunch, and leaders who do that are on the way out. bet on it. now is the time to build bridges to different movements and generate strength in diversity. a common cause like this may never come again. i really have to emphasise that. strength in diversity. we'll never build a machine like millions of prayer-bots marching in lockstep. bring everyone to the table. there's no doubt that we all have a stake.
more when i think of it.... tired.
 
 
grant
00:47 / 04.11.04
From that TPM bit I linked to up there:

Certainly it would have been more pleasant (and perhaps better) to nurture all the organization and infrastructure that has been built up over the last two years under a President Kerry. But my concern over the last few months has been that if Bush won, all of these groups and organizations and incipient infrastructure would simply be allowed to wither, as though it had been tried and found not to have worked.

That, as a factual judgment, I think is just plain wrong. And if that were allowed to happen it would truly be tragic. The truth is that what Democrats have begun to build over the last two years is tremendously important. It just wasn't enough, not yet.

I remember talking to Simon Rosenberg, the head of the New Dem Network, at the Democratic convention last summer. You'll remember, he and his group were profiled in the Times magazine around that time. The article, in brief, was about plans to create a Democratic-leaning counter-establishment along the lines of what Republicans did two generations ago -- with an alternative media, activist groups, organized political giving, in short a political infrastructure.

He told me he thought it would take ten years to accomplish. And I told him my one worry was that it could all be strangled in its crib if Kerry didn't win.



We prevent them from strangling the infrastructure in its crib. Foster online community, for one thing. Keep up with MoveOn.org and the rest. Watch like a hawk and don't let anything slip.


There's more guidance as to what to do over at this Bull Moose entry.
 
 
Z. deScathach
09:23 / 04.11.04
Mt question is: How do we change the views of this SOCIETY? Yes, it was a close election, but not as close as last time. Everyone is looking at Bush as the worst disaster, but I haven't heard much about the other one, that repubs picked up 4 seats in the senate and 5 seats in the House. Bush's policies will sail through virtually unimpeded. The pickup of those seats represents a strong national mandate, even if the pres election was close. The religious right are not going away, they are getting stronger. For example, I live in a conservative town, and the response that I've gotten from people today tells me that at least in our area, the Bush victory has mandated an open season on gays. We are more and more behaving like Germany during the rise of the brown-shirts. I had one outwardly agressive incident, and another where a car slowed down and drove very slowly by me, it's occupants looking like they were about to get out of their car and jump me. We had a gay person beaten to death with tire-irons several years ago. It is society that needs to be changed, the president that we elected is only a reflection of what we want as a society. The American people have spoken, and what they've said is that they want Bush and what he stands for. How do we change their minds?
 
 
Malle Babbe
10:29 / 04.11.04
I had one outwardly agressive incident, and another where a car slowed down and drove very slowly by me, it's occupants looking like they were about to get out of their car and jump me. We had a gay person beaten to death with tire-irons several years ago.

Buy a gun, and learn how to use it. Don't just go to the range on a regular basis, take classes as well.
 
 
Ganesh
11:49 / 04.11.04
Make sure it's a bigger gun than those the homophobes carry. Buy two, in fact. Be sure to shoot first.
 
 
bjacques
12:07 / 04.11.04
At this point, the Democrats should just say "screw it, go buy a gun and learn to use it. A couple more elections like this and you won't be allowed to (and the NRA won't mind this a bit)." The Democrats' position on guns has been a political millstone for decades. The only big group in favor of gun control are the cops, and they all vote Republican anyway.

Now some good news (mostly covered elsewhere):

Kerry won't inherit the Iraq mess.

Or the one in Palestine.

The icecaps are probably melting so fast that drilling equipment won't make it into Alaska.

The Republicans in the Senate don't have enough votes (cloture) to stop a filibuster.

America probably won't degenerate into the Old Testament-style Republic of Gilead from "The Handmaid's Tale" or the fascism of Upton Sinclair's "It Can't Happen Here." The military republic of "Starship Troopers" depends at the very least on heightened honor and military competence, neither of which are much in evidence here.

51-48 is a victory but not a mandate. This will become apparent when Rove's 4 million church ladies call in their markers and aim for final victory in the Culture War.

The Fifty Years War On Terror will peter out long before the Thousand-Year Third Reich, which lasted 12 years and 3 months, because fear is ultimately boring. Roswell turned into a giant tourist trap in '97 and the X-Files started to fade away then (pity, since the main story arc was a corker). This is good because any parent who voted for Bush automatically enlisted their kid in any future battle, right or wrong.

2006 will be here before you know it.
 
 
alas
12:21 / 04.11.04
The American people have spoken, and what they've said is that they want Bush and what he stands for. How do we change their minds?

Remember only 51% of American people, mostly "concentrated" in very rural, low density areas of the country, spoke this message. Bush's constituency is a coalition of the wealthy on one end, voting their pocketbooks in as cynical a manner as can be imagined, and the otherwise disenfranchised (often poorly educated, marginalized, financially precarious) people of the rural U.S., many areas of which are only maintained by, ironically, government handouts to farmers. It's the latter group that is attracted to the message of anti-gay everything and pondering the question "Can Christians Put Women in Burqas Too?"

(Some pundit described Pennsylvania's demographics as Philly and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between.)

There's a whole slew of interesting articles and op/ed pieces in the NYTimes today--Gary Willis's "The Day the Enlightenment Went Out," and an article called "A Very Blue (Disconsolate, Even) City in a Red Country" talking about the fact that both Manhattan and the Bronx voted for Kerry by 80% or more, and how they feel, as do I, completely alienated from the red zones of the nation--and I live here! And then there's Maureen Dowd's "The Red Zone" which is just good for the stomach's craving for sour grapes. (I'd link, but the Times is a subscription service and so you'd have to register and then the links turn to paid-links only so . . . )

My point, and I do have one somewhere here, is that we are at least 48% of the country as a whole, probably more, really, and in some important regions we are much bigger than that. My main hope: I don't think young people generally (as opposed to simply "young voters") are nearly so antigay, at any rate, as the others in this "red state" cohort.

I teach them everyday, my partner is a high school teacher. My impression of these students is that they are mostly, even the conservative ones, sympathetic to gay rights; they virtually all have "gay friends"--even at conservative, church-related schools--and they think it's wrong to deny gay people basic rights. They often believe this with a small sense of rebellion, because their parents ARE often very conservative and gay-bashing. Now many of them do struggle with issues related to child rearing, but they are pretty convinced of gay people's right to be in relationships and to love each other, to live in houses and hold jobs. (again, this is an impression, and it's anecdotal, but I feel it's accurate.) That all may sound like cold comfort, but I think it is hopeful, still.

Abortion for that group is much more complex. I actually think Madonna (!) was the most forward thinking of all the cultural analysts when she sang "Papa Don't Preach" in the 80s in terms of capturing young people's attitudes towards "unwanted pregnancy." Young women in the Midwest are, again painting broad strokes, very sentimental about babies AND they see it as a kind of "grrrl power" to say: "I've made up my mind, I'm keepin' my baby!" I really believe many of them see girls who get abortions as more "chicken shit", cowardly and irresponsible. By contrast, those who, okay they had sex, maybe it was a mistake, but they're going to take responsibility and decide to keep and raise the babies, are kind of rebellious/heroic. These young women, if they do get pregnant themselves, often also believe it will be easier than it typically turns out to be to still go to school, get a good job, etc. They're romantic about these things--they think they can do it all.

They don't understand that when abortion was illegal, many young (white) women who became pregnant were sent off to quiet places to give birth, had their babies taken from them, and were told never to speak of the experience. They don't know that the only time when keeping the baby became an option for a young woman, single, was when the women's movement insisted that women should have control over their reproductive lives, including abortion. That the movement towards seeing unmarried women as legitimate parents proceded from a logic that: if I am morally able to make a decision about ending this pregnancy, then I'm also fit to raise a child without having to have a shotgun ceremony.

My suggestion for myself is to keep teaching these young women, and especially to keep teaching women's history (women's studies, women's literature, women's lives) AND to teach queer theory and the history of the gay and lesbian movement. I know it makes a difference to many of my students. I have proof of it all the time--students tell me that my work makes a difference to how they see the world.

My question for myself: Can I try, would it do any good to try, to share some of this knowledge with my extremely conservative, rural red state relatives?
 
 
ibis the being
12:46 / 04.11.04
From "The Red Zone" mentioned in alas's post -

Tom Coburn, the new senator from Oklahoma, has advocated the death penalty for doctors who perform abortions and warned that "the gay agenda" would undermine the country. He also characterized his race as a choice between "good and evil" and said he had heard there was "rampant lesbianism" in Oklahoma schools.

Jim DeMint, the new senator from South Carolina, said during his campaign that he supported a state G.O.P. platform plank banning gays from teaching in public schools. He explained, "I would have given the same answer when asked if a single woman who was pregnant and living with her boyfriend should be hired to teach my third-grade children."

John Thune, who toppled Tom Daschle, is an anti-abortion Christian conservative - or "servant leader," as he was hailed in a campaign ad - who supports constitutional amendments banning flag burning and gay marriage.


I'm beginning to think I'm more repulsed by the voters who elected these people than by the politicians themselves.

(Should there be a separate thread about the "Culture War?")
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:32 / 04.11.04
In terms of percentages, I'd say it's hell of wrong to look at Bush's supporters as 51% of America. They're 51% of the 65% of Americans who decided to vote. They key, as ever, is to increase turnout. The Republicans started their GOTV campaign four years ago. I hope Democrats have learned their fucking lesson. Because I too believe that the real majority of Americans are not this batshit crazy. There's a good Saletan article in Slate about how the Democrats simply have to state the obvious, that really their policies are a hell of a lot more fundamentally Moral than Republicans. He's a big Edwards fan and I agree that he was the best at outlining the Decomacratic agenda in terms of right and wrong. My money's on (and for) Edwards and Obama in 2008.

And as someone else mentioned, yes, absolutely, run for office. Play the game from the inside. Protests and marches look good on posters but think about it, even if you managed to get 80,000 people in a march somewhere, people coming in from all across the country, think about what that translates to in votes. .008% Nationwide? Votes are all politicians care about. So step up and get them yourself. People like you and me are only getting older and these conservatives can't live forever. Even if you don't get any further than some school board primary, your voice will be heard about the issues you care about by a large number of people.

Look around the areas where you live. What pisses you off most? How is the Bush Agenda most effectively fucking up your day to day? Is it your local school system? Local transportation? Health care? Start going to town halls, school board meetings. Find out what you can do and how you can do it. We need a lot more young people stepping up to the plate in public office and making our voice heard, since the majority of us are too shit-lazy to do it en masse.

Fundamentally, all progressive ideas make sense. They appeal to rational people. Yes there are a poopload of irrational people in the country but I'm betting that 98% of ALL of them came out to vote on Tuesday. Fear is not a rational idea, but it is a powerful one, and people had a lot of things to be scared about, even three years after 9/11 and Bush ruthlessly took advantage of this. And they only won by 3%. We have this on lock. And the news of the day is, primarily, conflict. The division in this country has not gone unnoticed. Even the NY Daily News urged Bush to lean centrist, going as far as to tell him that under no circumstances should he put up a Supreme Court nominee who doesn't get bipartisan support. I almost spit out my coffee. This is the New York Daily News we're talking about.

So run, if you feel this strongly about the struggle. That's what democracy was built for.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:16 / 04.11.04
My question for myself: Can I try, would it do any good to try, to share some of this knowledge with my extremely conservative, rural red state relatives?

Sometimes people hear information from one source and they don't believe it but then they hear it two or three more times, or read it in a magazine and it leaks in to their world view, even if it's not obvious or conscious. I think America is suffering from a lack of real information, it's easy to base your beliefs in faith when you've only heard about evolution from a text book and it's not part of your cultural life.
 
 
diz
17:32 / 04.11.04
In terms of percentages, I'd say it's hell of wrong to look at Bush's supporters as 51% of America. They're 51% of the 65% of Americans who decided to vote. They key, as ever, is to increase turnout.

i don't know about that. we had a lot of turnout this time, and it didn't really do us a lot of good. i think a lot of progressives and liberals like to entertain the fantasy that all the people out there who aren't voting would vote their way. i don't think that's necessarily justified, and my gut instinct living here says that it's actually the reverse. you may not believe that the real majority of Americans are batshit crazy, but, in my almost 30 years of living here, i haven't found much reason to believe that that's true.

I think America is suffering from a lack of real information, it's easy to base your beliefs in faith when you've only heard about evolution from a text book and it's not part of your cultural life.

but new information is useless if your target doesn't believe that your source is credible.

think about it: a sizeable number of people in the US, about half or so, basically don't believe in Darwinian evolution. in order to not believe in Darwinian evolution, you pretty much have to believe that the university system, the scientific establishment, the mainstream media, etc, are all deeply misguided and unreliable. when people are talking about the "liberal media" and "liberals taking over the schools" they're basically saying that they don't trust the facts. throwing more facts at them is not necessarily going to help.
 
 
Aertho
17:44 / 04.11.04
Somebody, I think it was YOU diz... said that the conservatives were using liberal tactics and the liberals were floundering at becoming conservatives. Everything has become semiotically flip-flopped. It's really quite depressing to see this in its predicted sense. How does one get jubilantly existential when people have become so defiantly self-involved with their own fears and sense of security?
 
 
salix lucida
18:26 / 04.11.04
youth vote - from what I can tell of the numbers a lot more young voters *did* come out. So did a lot more voters any other age, keeping the percentages of voters by age category about the same. "How the hell?" I thought to myself Tuesday night, when one of the ancient talking heads on TV mentioned all the marriage amendments, being such hot-button issues, dragging out usual non-voters to have their say. It's possible.
 
 
eddie thirteen
18:38 / 04.11.04
I have a feeling this will be addressed in the culture wars thread (haven't looked at it yet), but a big reason -- maybe the biggest -- why so much of America has a distrust of the educational system (proponent of such radical concepts as...evolution -- which, incidentally, hardly precludes intelligent design, if one chooses to believe that God is in fact the source of evolution, which...call me crazy...seems less than far-fetched, if one believes in a God) is that the educational system leaves them feeling justifiably disenfranchised. Our public schools (those provided by the state) are deplorable, staffed with teachers who are underpaid and forced to work with outdated materials (and, frequently, under some rather draconian constrictions in terms of what they are allowed to teach) -- even the buildings that house our public schools are often quite rundown. THAT'S what we provide, free of charge, to those who cannot afford to send their children to private school. (Which, in the US, are schools with paid tuition that are provided by private businesses, typically religious institutions.) Is it any wonder that people who grow up in economically depressed areas come away from education with a bad taste in their mouths? Not much brighter than they were when they first walked in, many of these people will never even consider college -- they can't afford it, and lack the grades that might get them scholarship money -- and so, as is often the case when one is categorically denied something, the reaction is disdain. Sour grapes. (I hate to sound condescending, and it isn't as if poverty is necessarily an intellectual death sentence -- however, those in these circumstances who do achieve tend to do so against the implicit will of their community, and understandably have a tendency to leave it ASAP...reducing the number of educated Americans in their red state area by one every time this happens.)

The solution, of course, is to improve the state of American education -- which people like Bush will never do, as in effect such a policy would educate much of their support base into voting for the other side.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:41 / 04.11.04
I know there is about a 5% chance of this happening, but what if, once the Ohio provisional and absentee ballots are counted, Kerry actually comes out on top??
 
 
eddie thirteen
18:52 / 04.11.04
Pretty sure Kerry wouldn't have conceded were it possible. Judging from the margin of the Bush win, I doubt that the absentee and provisional votes would be enough -- even if all those votes, like every last one of them, went to Kerry. I believe, as has been said a lot lately, that we need to face up to reality -- and, sadly, that cuts both ways....
 
 
vajramukti
18:54 / 04.11.04

He almost certainly did.


http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php

this is fucking appalling. when are we going to face facts? this is straight up rule-by-fear. it's a fucking dictatorship, and there is only one way to topple a dictatorship.

fuck
 
 
diz
19:28 / 04.11.04
The solution, of course, is to improve the state of American education -- which people like Bush will never do, as in effect such a policy would educate much of their support base into voting for the other side.

i agree with you here. our schools are fucking terrible, and it's too hard to get a decent education, and so people don't.

frankly, i think charter schools are the answer, and that will mean taking on a traditional bastion of Dem support: the teachers' unions. sorry, them's the breaks.
 
  

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