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Morrison's Doom Patrol in Trade Paperbacks

 
  

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Cowboy Scientist
19:58 / 17.10.05
Where did you hear these rumors Nonexistent Man?
I know someone that works at DC, he heard the rumor; and told me because he knows I'm a huge Flex-freak. But he doesn't know anything for sure about this. The idea was making the last DP TP with all the out-of-continuity stuff (Flex, Doom Force, Ep. 53 - "And men shall call him... HERO!"-)
 
 
Simplist
20:04 / 17.10.05
Care to provide a link? That site's awful to navigate around.

It's here. But the info given is actually pretty minimal. To save you having to look at popups:

It doesn’t appear to have been a good week for John Byrne. There are rumors that Grant Morrison is trying to get a new Doom Patrol project off the ground that would completely ignore Byrne’s reboot, which itself ignored previous Doom Patrol incarnations. So there is a certain symmetry to it, if it goes through.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
20:22 / 17.10.05
I just picked up the third DP trade and am loving it to bits and pieces. I missed a lot of the issues collected here when they first came out so it's like I'm gettin new DP issues, only different.

Someone mentioned the Land of Chairs (?) story that wrapped up DP and I agree that it's my favorite of the bunch EXCEPT for the electroshock scenes. Electroshock therapy (or ECT) has been revived as a psychiatric treatment in the last 10 years and nothing drives me crazier than the ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST treatment it gets in most writing. It's actually a great technique that uses general anesthetic and has done a lot for people with depression (which is pretty much all it's used for). If a patient suffers from clinical depression and has trouble taking meds (ie, they're suffering from senile dementia; or they are allergic to most antidepressants; or they demonstrate serious side effects) then ECT (which is generally a 10 second shock period within a 20 minute procedure) about every 6 months has the same effect. It's not used for violent patients (wrong procedure) and it's not used for people suffering from hallucinations. The old school image of someone strapped down, foaming at the mouth and screaming has a lot more to do with imaginative writers than with the procedure (which I've watched) which consists of someone being put under anesthetic and then pretty much nothing happening (you can only see electricity in comic books).

I know this sounds like a pet peeve, but I guess I expected more from Grant Morrison than this kind of gothic torture approach to psychiatry. It's a cheap image, something I'd expect in the work of an author like VC Andrews, not Grant Morrison whose stuff I generally like a lot. So as much as I love the wrap-up of the series that aspect of it always seemed like a cheap cop-out to me, and it really lowered my opinion of the issue. If you're going to write about something, make sure you're not resorting to urban legends and pop culture miniseries mythology before you do it if you want to be thought of as a good writer.

I seem a bit humorless about it only because I was so disappointed because I expected more from Mr. Morrison.
 
 
Ganesh
20:56 / 17.10.05
Electroshock therapy (or ECT) has been revived as a psychiatric treatment in the last 10 years

Dunno about "revived"; I don't think it ever went away. And what you're describing (six-monthly) is maintenance ECT; short courses of weekly sessions (typically between six and twelve sessions) is probably more common. Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly: the portrayal of ECT ruined that storyline for me. Mind you, I'm not sure one ought to have especially high expectations of Morrison's portrayal of psychiatry. He's generally better than the tabloid press, but still a bit iffy at times...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:58 / 17.10.05
dEFENDING gEORGE m IS A LONELY WAR YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT ON YOUR OWN, i SUSPECT.

It might be worth thinking about Goerge's treatment of ECT as a narrative device, as opposed to his last statement on a subject that he's basically not qualified to say anything about, as well he knows. I have personally spoken to GM on many an occasion and he has assured me of the rightness of all my opinions and the childish crapness of all of yours so there no returns.
 
 
Ganesh
21:16 / 17.10.05
Problem is, it's the same narrative device as every other lazy, damaging stereotype of ECT. And does using something as a narrative device justify being crass and irresponsible? If he used feckless black men with big cocks and a great sense of rhythm as a narrative device, would that make it okay?
 
 
Ganesh
22:28 / 17.10.05
%Good answer.%
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:37 / 17.10.05
In some ways, replacing the ECT scenes in "The Empire of Chairs" with, say, medication would have been more effective - making the grey "real world" even more grey and static, with Jane too doped up to move. Already, a lot of those scenes used multiple panels with no change beyond the narration, or small details. You wouldn't have quite the same dynamic climax moment, but I think that the story could have benefitted from some anticlimax while the war was waged in the secret Empire.

It's still one of my favourite DOOM PATROL chapters, partly because Richard Case's artwork finally clicked for me when I read it.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:49 / 17.10.05
I don't know if an, as I understand it, controversial and experimental form of applied brain damage is necessarily analagous to the 'porno-Shaft' situation outlined above. One would be a way of living, of being, I guess, and the other a surgical procedure.

That said though, Dr G, just out of curiosity (and not trying to be difficult,) what is the current professional thinking re: ECT?
 
 
Ganesh
23:05 / 17.10.05
That said though, Dr G, just out of curiosity (and not trying to be difficult,) what is the current professional thinking re: ECT?

Used to be a thread about this in one of the other forums (and I don't want to rot this one). Short answer: we don't know how it works but it works, especially for very severe depressive states, in which it's invaluable; also good for those who can't tolerate unpleasant side-effects of antidepressants (eg. the elderly); much-maligned, thanks to popular image, but comparitively low risk of complications.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:18 / 18.10.05
Electroshock therapy (or ECT) has been revived as a psychiatric treatment in the last 10 years

I know nothing about psychiatric treatments, really, but it may be worth pointing out that the last ten years are probably fairly irrelevant when looking at a comic that was written about a decade and a half ago.
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:18 / 18.10.05
Why do you need more doom patrol? More to the point, why do you seem to want to buy more comics that are less good than your estimation of Grant Morrison's doom patrol?

I may have been unclear: no new series could equal GM’s for surreality, but that doesn’t mean that DP can't still be relaunched with a creative new appraoch. Especially if GM himself is spearheading the reboot, relaunch, whatever.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
04:20 / 18.10.05
It'd be interesting if a new Doom Patrol is the follow-up to 7 Soldiers that Dan Didio has mentioned.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:59 / 18.10.05
But isn't ECT the standard treatment for someone who can't process metaphor?

And I doubt that Crazy Jane is a particularly accurate depiction of a multiplicity either.

I'm just curious as to who Rhea is dancing with, as I don't remember seeing anything like it in Grant's entire run.

Frankly I hope the rumours about Grant and DP aren't correct. I'd be a little surprised if he wanted to do anything with them hisself as he knows he'd be measured against what he did before, it would also be setting things up for DP having a tangled continuity and backstory of numerous failed reboots a la Donna Troy or Hawkman down the line.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
17:48 / 18.10.05
I just finished reading the 3rd TPB and previously I had only read the very last issue of the "Let's go to space!" storyline and liked it a lot, what with Rebus being all badass and utilitarian, and the bizarre backdrop that seemed to come out of nowhere. Reading all the issues I liked it a lot less. The character interaction was great (I really like Jane's response to going into space, Rebus being proactive and Rhea's boredom with all the little minds around her) but the filling in of the background for the aliens was TMI. I found a lot of the panel narratives kind of redundant and while the ideas were neat-ish I wound up being a little bored by the explanation of what lay behind them. That said, the Danny the Street story was great (I hadn't ever read the last issue of this first Danny arc) and I really, really like the set-ups for the Pentagon story to come with the real Men from NOWHERE. I had no idea that the silver ice tongs and Flight 19 had had such meticulous groundwork laid.

I'm also liking Richard Case's artwork a lot more this time around. Have they done any recoloring or anything on these volumes?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:46 / 18.10.05
I dunno if I'd want to see Morrison Doom Patrol Mk 2; the issue of comparisons is inescapable. I'd rather see a SEVEN SOLDIERS ongoing. I'm surprised if Morrison would even want to go back to DP - isn't it buried for him by this point? That was a long time ago.

Any notion in anyone's head about when the next TPB is coming out?
 
 
Mark Parsons
19:29 / 18.10.05
I dunno if I'd want to see Morrison Doom Patrol Mk 2; the issue of comparisons is inescapable. I'd rather see a SEVEN SOLDIERS ongoing. I'm surprised if Morrison would even want to go back to DP - isn't it buried for him by this point? That was a long time ago.

I assumed that he'd develop and launch another series rather than pen an ongoing: he is DC's Mr. ReBoot after all.

Of course we'd all compare the two and the new series would be an underdog, but I'm really eager to see GM re-imagine himself, as it were. I read JLA Year One the other week and the DP feature in two issues. Made me want to see them again, handled by a creative mind...

I picked up V3: this was the storyline that always threw me back in the day. Back then, I liked its elements but felt that it was disjoint (I could well have been stoned every time I tried to read it). Now I'm older and (occasionally) wiser, I experienced it in a new light. Enjoyed every page.

Was it just me, of did this volume seem to come out of nowhere? The solicit announcement seemed to be from the end of the summer.
 
 
Mark Parsons
19:37 / 18.10.05
I'm just curious as to who Rhea is dancing with, as I don't remember seeing anything like it in Grant's entire run.

He's a bit player. Of maybe it is a s/him? Not sure which issue, but one of the humanoid aliens gets infected by the Insectoid Mesh and erupts into a spidery, John Carpenter's THE THINGery mess. It gets toasted PDQ and is never rendered in loving detail as on Bolland's cover.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:05 / 18.10.05
While Rhea does look brill on the cover of the trade, I find Fane - the other dancer, who is referred to as "her" right after she explodes with insectoid body horror - looks a bit stilted in comparison, but that's a common complaint against Bolland. He tries to render the surreal Doom Patrol into a version of the Silver Age Superman style with a bit more depth; it cognitive dissonance. It won't ever look quite "right" to me, even when he gets segments - in this case, Rhea - to work well.

Compare to Bisley's cover for #37, "Persephone" - the trio of Insect Mesh priests. It's horror and it's uncomfortably sexy. It's not working with a pseudo-retro line, and there's that lovely white spackling of light near the bottom (and a beautiful artist's signature) and coming from each priest's singular eye. I really like the cover to "Persephone," it's an image that's stuck with me for quite a while and really excited me before the trade came out; I'd seen it in a few places but never got to see any of the interior art; that issue cover solid the comic for me even before I'd heard the trades were going to start coming out.

That and the logo, which I think is one of the best designs for a logo; the suitable quirking of the OO, and the compactness - I like the minimalist aesthetic, especially with the white vertical band on many of the covers...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:25 / 19.10.05
I was about to argue with you on that Bisley cover and then checked and damn but you're right. It just a shame that his over covers were almost all awful though. (For proof see: every other cover in that collection)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:33 / 19.10.05
Some of them work and some of them don't. The cover to #33 - the final part of the Cult of the Unwritten Book, with that particular rendition of Rebis - is suitable for framing. But the cover to Cliff Steele's adventure in Crazy Jane's brain? Ugly as sin. I think that's supposed to be Daddy on the cover, but meh.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:31 / 24.10.05
'The Men of Flight 19' sounds like an actual UFO/unexplained military story. Is it?
 
 
distractile
18:54 / 24.10.05
Yes, Flight 19 is a "real" story.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:45 / 24.10.05
Thanks - interesting how that article doesn't mention the things the pilot said on radio before they disappeared, which GM makes a part of his story -- I would assume that the things GM has the pilot say are historically accurate, since they're not too outlandish.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:04 / 25.10.05
I quite liked that bit - liked the thread of synchronity and weird chance running through it. Can't wait for the next TPB to deliver on the storyline, since I never got it the first time 'round.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:51 / 30.10.05
Urgent! Does anyone know a place where I can order this & get it delivered by Sat 5th Nov? Fucking Amazon UK (and that includes Waterstones) seem to think DPW comes out mid-November, or something. Stupid bloody bollocks.

Thance.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
08:57 / 31.10.05
Best bet would be with a comic shop - try calling Travelling Man or Orbital Comics.

Amazon normally takes a few months to catch up with stuff thats been released through Diamond.
 
 
Krug
11:21 / 22.12.05
I just finished Doom Patrol.

Empire of Chairs made me weep. The ECT thing didnt spoil my enjoyment, the comic is too heartbreakingly beautiful to suffer from such missteps.

Right up there with the ending of Animal Man. Morrison at his best. I'm not sure I want to see Doom Patrol again, for me the characters lived happily ever after after Empire of Chairs.
 
 
matthew.
14:01 / 22.12.05
I didn't like the ending as much as Animal Man. With Animal Man, Buddy Baker gets his family back. With DP, a new family is stabilized. It's a beautiful ending.

I love how GM fucks with us one last time with this last issue. He made me wonder if any of the previous shit had even happened.
 
 
Krug
20:22 / 22.12.05
The whole series is Grant fucking with us but yes I was a little afraid when he kept suggesting that the whole had been in Kay's head, something he did later in Invisibles no?

But what a glorious work. Was Grant fired off the book or did he just plan to leave at 63?

Why in heaven's name did Rachel Pollak or anyone want to follow that up? Milligan did a decent job of following up Animal Man and there was a fresh start there.

Like with Millar's ending to Swamp Thing you can't possibly think there are more or better stories to tell.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:35 / 23.12.05
As far as I'm aware he wanted to leave and try new things. He'd been doing DP for almost four years after all.

From what I've read of it Pollack's run had the requisite weird ideas but she often had them happen as a substitute for storytelling. Her first storyline became incomprehensible by the end.
 
 
doctorbeck
12:43 / 23.12.05
>It's actually a great technique that uses general >anesthetic and has done a lot for people with depression

sorry to vear widely off topic but jo moncreif (of the institute of psychiatry), amongst others, has reviewed the research evidence for this and found it is no better than placebo for depression except for limited evidence for it's efficacy, short-term, amongst elderly depression sufferers. frankly it is barbaric and inneffective

apologies, now, did someone mention flex mentallo being reprinted?
 
 
sleazenation
12:45 / 23.12.05
It could well be that it is tacked onto the end of the last trade...
 
 
Jack Fear
12:57 / 23.12.05
Mm. What Pollack lacked, I think, was any lightness of touch. What was playful in Grant's hands became merely assaultive. There was plenty of good material there, but the reader really ahd to struggle with it.

To be fair, the art didn't do Pollack's writing any favors. Again using Grant Morrison's work as a benchmark: his most successful stories have melded trippy ideas with crisp cartooning—Chas Truog's on ANIMAL MAN, Yeowell's on ZENITH and SEBASTIAN O, Case's on DOOM PATROL. (See also Phil Hester's work on Millar's SWAMP THING, another great Comics Story of Ideas, or the clean-lined Slavic studio work on Delano's OUTLAW NATION, or Frank Quitely's segment of 2020 VISIONS, and so on).

When paired with looser, more experimental art—McKean on ARKHAM ASYLUM, Muth on THE MYSTERY PLAY, Bachalo on NEW X-MEN—the results are less impressive: the art and the writing work against each other (see also Thompson & Kramer on the storyline that saw THE INVISIBLES shedding half its readers, including myself—or Ashley Wood's disastrous v3.2 pages).

Pollack's run was at its best at the start, when Case's pencils provided a much-needed carryover (see also: Chas Truog on Milligan's ANIMAL MAN run). After that, though, the art flailed around for a while before settling in with Ted McKeever's bold, murky expressionism—which worked brilliantly with more tightly-structured scripts (see also: Milligan's EXTREMIST from about the same period), but which only (for me) exacerbated Pollack's weaknesses (see also: Steve Pugh's dark, frankly ugly art on Jamie Delano's ANIMAL MAN, or all of 2020 VISIONS except Frank Quitely's bit).
 
 
Grady Hendrix
13:24 / 23.12.05
Not to jump too far off the thread, but the American Psychiatric Association (the largest organization for psychiatrists in the world) endorses ECT and their position paper states:

"Numerous studies since the 1940s have demonstrated ECT's effectiveness. Clinical evidence indicates that for uncomplicated cases of severe major depression, ECT will produce a substantial improvement in at least 80 percent of patients (1). ECT has also been shown to be effective in depressed patients who do not respond to other forms of treatment (2). Medication is usually the treatment of choice for mania, but here too certain patients don't respond. Many of these patients have been successfully treated with ECT (3)."

Also can we please end the ECT debate that keeps popping up? I'm sorry I started it in the first place. It's an accepted medical practice, it's been vilified in the media, some people question its value and others claim it can have harmful side effects. Anyone interested in info on it can find more accurate information with better spelling and punctuation in numerous places online by doing a simple Google search.

There. That should serve as a fitting eitaph.
 
  

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