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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Sopranos Season 5 UK

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Regrettable Juvenilia

08:37 / 26.10.04

Oh, and there is SO much clever stuff going on in this episode, even for The Sopranos. Like the fact that maybe Artie and Charmaine are in his thoughts because Valentina catches on fire, and Tony set their restaurant on fire. Other notable fires: the one that took out Pie-O-My and thus led to Tony killing Ralphie. Or the one that his mother had in her kitchen (which if I remember Season 1, leads to Tony putting her in a home, which leads to her conspiring with Junior to have him whacked).

(Even though I agree with some of what Flux said about the downside of Television Without Pity, I would advise anyone who wants to cheat to read their recap of this episode.)

Our Lady Has Left the Building

10:45 / 27.10.04

Who was the woman that Tony saw in his dream of being at Melfi's office talking about his dream of the dead mob guy? I didn't recognise her from what I've seen of the show. What's her story?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:56 / 27.10.04

That's Gloria. You kind of need to see seasons 3 and 4 right NOW.

Basically, Gloria was a woman Tony bumped into at Melfi's office when Melfi double-booked them. She was a car saleswomen for (I believe) Mercedes, very sassy, sexy, etc. Tony and Gloria began a very heated affair. Gloria turned out to be kinda unstable, and reminded Tony a lot of his mother. When threw his dinner at him, Tony hit her and nearly choked her to death, as alluded to in the dream. When Gloria called Carmela and even went for a drive with her, Tony has one of his goons (Patsy, if memory serves) explain to her exactly what would happen if she ever tried to contact him again.

In season 4, Tony found out that Gloria had killed herself. It kinda helped push him further towards "losing the plot" territory.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:21 / 27.10.04

Cheers. I had a feeling it would be something like that.

I loved the horse/whores reference.

And I'm worried for Artie. Though Tony was wrong about Artie being the only alive guy in the car full of dead guys. Cousin Tony was in it too... and so was Tony of course.

So what does the crowd watching Cousin Tony kill the other guy represent? Suppressed Soprano guilt that the Mob really isn't that good for society?

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:32 / 27.10.04

I don't think so - they come an angry mob (do you see?) when they start chasing him, and what they're angry about is that he hasn't done his duty and killed his cousin. It's about obligation to the family code, which paradoxically says you kill actual family members if they step out of line, to ensure the stability of the wider 'family'.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:52 / 27.10.04

Ah, I get it.

And I'm reading the TWP recap and it links to the Amazon page for The Valachi Papers which are all about a Mafia grass, which compromises Adrianna...

I was a bit irritated, when I first saw S.2, that I felt Tony didn't really know about Pussy being a grass, had the dream and then killed him, convinced he was. I felt that there needed to be something in 'real life' to act as proof. Has this been discussed post series 2, and has Tony had any more dreams and acted/not acted on them?

12:00 / 27.10.04

Who was the woman that Tony saw in his dream of being at Melfi's office talking about his dream of the dead mob guy?

To add to Flyboy's explanation, Gloria was unstable in the particular sense that she was a thrill-seeker, turned on by physical danger. Significantly, she was a saleswoman of fast, luxury cars. Tony's 'occupation' appealed to her love of risk, and she blew hot and cold, deliberately provoking him to anger for the extra edge it added to sex, and the relationship in general.

Predictably, it all ended in tears. In some ways, she's a sort of anti-Carmela...

12:53 / 27.10.04

I was a bit irritated, when I first saw S.2, that I felt Tony didn't really know about Pussy being a grass, had the dream and then killed him, convinced he was. I felt that there needed to be something in 'real life' to act as proof.

Don't forget that Makazian identifies Pussy as the grass towards the end of series one. Tony asks Paulie to get some hard evidence and we get suggestions that he's wearing a wire - he flat out refuses to take a sauna with Paulie, he hobbles around with a 'bad back'. Then Jimmy gets released from custody and makes it obvious that *he's* wired, leading to Tony immediately presuming that this clears Pussy, despite there still not being any proof one way or the other about his innocence.

13:32 / 27.10.04

I was interested in the dream-representations of the various women in Tony's life. Ominously, Gloria takes Melfi's place (is Melfi also coming to be seen as a woman who asks for it, pushing and pushing until she gets what's coming to her?) and, like Carmela (who's repeatedly urging Tony to get dressed), she's dressed in black...

... in contrast to Annette Bening, who stands out in white. Is this related to Tony's tendency to compartmentalise women (brides and whores) or an idolisation of untouchable (simplistic) Hollywood 'goodness', the female equivalent of the black hat/white hat cowboy morality (and Tony-as-a-cowboy is wearing black)?

I liked the shedding of teeth. Teeth, in dreams, often symbolise one's psychic defences; crumbling teeth, crumbling defences.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

18:48 / 27.10.04

Which, as he only looses two, suggests he's got a loooong way to fall yet...

Interesting Hugo, but does it ever come up again in series 2? Although I remember the episodes where Pussy is hanging out with the FBI, I can't remember if Tony's crew feel they're in a situation where someone is grassing on them to the Feds again...

The Natural Way

16:17 / 28.10.04

There's a moment, around the beginning of 2, when their eyes meet and Tony just knows what's going on. The dream just galvanizes Tony's actions.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

21:18 / 31.10.04

I'm sorry, maybe I'll change my mind once I've had a chance to process, but my immediate reaction to tonight's episode was one of eventual disappointment. It seems we got to see every possible solution to Adriana's predicament, and to go with what they did...

Matthew Fluxington

13:06 / 01.11.04

You're mad!

Our Lady Has Left the Building

16:45 / 01.11.04

Quite probably. I just think that to take Chris out of the game in some way would have been a much more interesting story decision to take. Although I was convinced he was going to get killed with his whole "I'm just going out for some cigarettes" thing. I thought the whole point of Chris arc this season was realising he's never going to be the big mobster he wants to be. It's over, they aren't taking any new nominations. Despite the fact that I'm sure he's been through it all for Tony in the last five seasons, I was sure he could have walked away. What is interesting is that perhaps he didn't turn Adriana in because he wanted to give up the mobster dream, but because he saw civilian life as equally empty.

21:12 / 01.11.04

Flowers, can you please refrain from posting spoilers from episodes shown early on E4, especially this close to the end of the series?

21:51 / 01.11.04

Agreed. Watching it now.

Goodness Gracious Meme

23:04 / 01.11.04

Oi! Flowers! Naaaaoooooooo. If you spoil the season finale I will come over there and take you for a drive.

Oh my god. Between The Sopranos and 'The Country Sucks', I'm *never* setting foot in a forest again.

That final scene was masterful, I swear I've got a new Pavlovian response now. Beautiful autumnal panning shots of woods=creeping horrors. But it's not Adriana being murdered, it's Tony hanging on to Carmela for dear life.

And I have to say I disagree with you. Killing Adriana was daring and intersting. I'm still processing.

But it's also true to the characters, Christopher was never going to choose her over Tony, and I'm sure I wasn't the only person wincing when Adriana says that she thinks she can 'bring him in' because he's sore over Tony B.

More later. Presuming Tony B is going to loom large in the finale.

23:16 / 01.11.04

Have they managed to get the word 'cunt' into every episode this season?

Liked the episode, but the fact that Chris has kind of gone stale is a little annoying, he's reverted back to the loud mouthed thug of old, when I think it would have been interesting if he had tried to be more professional than Paulie. It just doesn't ring true that Tony would still be taking him to the Johnny Sax meetings when he gets told to keep his mouth shut, but still manages to flare up about something every time.

09:48 / 02.11.04

I found the murder of Adriana quite shocking: it's true that Christopher's been wavering, but their relationship seemed moderately resilient. I agree with GGM that it did make sense in terms of the escalating Tony-Christopher-Adriana triangle - and it was a brutal reminder of Christopher's true loyalties.

Brrr. Autumn countryside. I've gone all Blair Witch again...

yawn - thing's buddy

10:01 / 02.11.04

Tony-Christopher-Adriana triangle

can someone be arsed to explain? i know nada of this.

The Natural Way

10:50 / 02.11.04

Adriana's always seemed like a tragic, doomed character to me. She never had a chance - buffeted about by her boyfriend, the mob and the FBI, her life's a fucking horror story. I love the way the series gently contests the shaky moral high-ground the FBI inhabit. They're taking everything away from her and, in the end, as a result of their actions, she loses her life and, y'know, it's no big whoop. And the agent assigned to her, wossername, sure, yeah, she's her "friend", but she enever offers any solace, advice or compassion that couldn't be understood as just another ploy to reel Adriana in. And Silvio? He just fucking hates women, doesn't he? Going throught the motions of "It's all right, Chris is a toughie" and all that crap, but, in the end, it's such a fucking transparent, sadistic farce and he knows it, hence the jarring, abrupt transition to cunt-calling and bullets in the head.

I hate so many of the characters on this show right now, but I love the show more than ever.

Matthew Fluxington

11:20 / 02.11.04

I thought the whole point of Chris arc this season was realising he's never going to be the big mobster he wants to be.

You're not wrong. But the other important thing about Christopher is his loyalty to Tony - that's what this was all about. Christopher is the b story for the whole show, his story runs parallel with Tony. Basically, he's going down with the ship.

12:32 / 02.11.04

Tony-Christopher-Adriana triangle:

a few weeks ago there was a bit of sidling up going on between tony and adriana. She was stressed out and having bowel problems - a cancer scare, tony also had a cancer scare, got something lasered off his forehead. I think I remember them having a fumbled kiss in her office, interrupted?
Later he gives her a lift to her dealer, but they crash, Christopher finds out she's in the middle of nowhere in Tony's car and goes apeshit. Everyone's gossiping behind his back, good scene of chinese whispers as the story gets blown (scuse the pun) out of proportion. Chris threatens to kill Tony prompting Tony to almost kill Chris, pulls back Chris apologises.

Or something like that.

One good turn deserves another, so when did Tony b shoot Phil's brother?
I must have missed a bit somewhere, I knoe TB shot Joey Peeps and in retaliation his old mate from the jail was killed so then...?

13:31 / 02.11.04

okay just read about it on televisionwithoutpity.
short term memory fading fast, had forgotten end of dream episode where Christopher comes with the news.

13:32 / 02.11.04

Tony B shot Phil's brother off camera; in the previous episode, Christopher tells Tony what happened when he bursts into his hotel room. It's quite a significant event, but all we see is Tony driving on his way to doing the deed, as it were.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:38 / 02.11.04

OK, so it's fine to talk about Tony's dream episode right after it happens, but not the following episode?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

13:40 / 02.11.04

And interesting that Meme complains, then completely lets the cat out of the bag...

13:48 / 02.11.04

Silvio is the one person that will rise from all of this, from the end of the whole story, as the head of the family - he is the most calculating and professional member of Tony's crew. Sure it makes him a bit of a dull character compared to say Paulie, but fuck, I'd take my chances with Walnuts and a doped up Christopher any day!

That ending was great, the undignified meeting had so much unsaid meaning in it, and Tony looked terrified in the woods, the first time he's looked so scared.

I'm going to miss Adriana's 'Chris-toe-fer''s.

Goodness Gracious Meme

14:51 / 02.11.04

(Lady, I talked about the dream ep immediately after I'd seen it. On C4. and in what way have I let cats out of bags, I haven't *seen* the finale yet, I'm just guessing/speculating, I don't *know* anything....)

Sorry, return to normal service.

18:28 / 02.11.04

You've got E4 and get to see the episodes on Saturday(?). Everybody else has C4 and has to wait until Monday. Giving away the plot of a new episode a couple of hours before it airs isn't really on, more so at the end of the series than at any other time - you've got some strands of the storyline being concluded and others being left to dangle until the new season, and a large part of the fun is not knowing which are which until they happen.

12:01 / 03.11.04

"I'll make a call to Sam Goldwyn".

That's cold, man. Interesting episode in that all the lighting (and indeed the sets) were very theatrical. The Chris-and-Ade sequence in particular; Christopher walking from left to right in the frame, camera behind the sofa - and yet when we look at Ade, the wall is behind the sofa. Lots of downlighting, fixed camera angles. Similarly, the Tony-AJ-Carmela dinner. Slightly Arthur Miller in terms of the impending-catastrophe.

Really, really looking forward to the final one.

19:20 / 03.11.04

Noticed that, in the final scenes, Tony, Christopher and Silvio were all wearing black leather - creating a strong, sinister impression of closing ranks...

22:06 / 08.11.04

So...

Thoughts?

22:40 / 08.11.04

Very good. It was great to see all the trustworthy crew members at the end around Tony. So many contrasting moments, every conversation seemed to head one direction and then shift tone to another. Also the crap kids fight was good.
Highlight though as to be Tony and Carm in bed confused by AJ's interest in being an 'events organiser' - 'isn't that gay?' 'well at least he's fired up about something'.

23:22 / 08.11.04

Paulie's painting - funniest Sopranos moment ever?

The reason for Adriana's death - outside of character continuity, which it fit like a glove - becomes more obvious when you see how Tony S is reacting to Tony B. Up until he solves that problem, it's one (self-imposed) rule for Christopher and one rule for him, and it's only when he sees Paulie's picture (funniest Sopranos moment ever) that he realises how he's abusing his position. Which is why Chris is the first person he goes to see afterwards and why he gives him the job of burying the corpse - it's a sop to Chris, an admission that he's probably done wrong by him, but it also keeps things between the three cousins tight, right up to the end.

I'm thinking, though, next season. Surely somebody's going to question why Tony was present when the Feds suddenly appeared and how he managed to get away from them? It's the sort of thing that prompted Pussy's downfall, after all. Also, right at the end, he suddenly seems to be relishing the possibility of being in charge, and if there's one thing we've known since season 1 - and it was repeated here - it's that it's better to be pulling the strings without being seen to do so. Probably not a good time to forget that lesson, what with everybody grumbling about him with one voice for the first time ever.

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