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Astonishing X-Men: BIG BIG Spoiler For #4

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
12:09 / 02.08.04
The story is so much more powerful if Henry's big hope to become human again is just another lie.

None of you really believe that the "cure" is actually a cure, right?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:59 / 02.08.04
What occurs to me is that it is a 'cure' in the sense of function (it's something that gets rid of mutant powers), but not in terms of purpose. It's a weapon, to render mutants defenceless. That's certainly how Ord seems intent on using it in the first few pages of issue 4, which you can see here.
 
 
Spaniel
13:30 / 02.08.04
Preview pages!

Smart, sorry mate, not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying that the cure can only turn Henry into a human, and not revert him to his primary mutation? If so, I'd like to know where you're getting your insider information. The fact is, we have no idea what the cure would do to a second stage mutant. Christ, even Henry barely understands his condition.

Now then, on to some more speculation.

Going by the preview, it looks like Ord is set to bring the ruckus, but what's that serum he's injecting into his knuckle-dusters? Could it be the cure? Assuming that's the case, perhaps someone is going to get de-powered.

Perhaps they're all going to get de-powered.

Perhaps Henry, who merely reverts to his hairless form, is left to take down Ord singlehandedly.

Hey, getting a fist-full of serum in the face would serve to take the responsibility out of his hands.

I just can't leave it alone.
 
 
Spaniel
13:33 / 02.08.04
I completely agree, Fly. Of course the cure is a weapon, what else could it be. A point that looks set to be hammered home if my hunch about the knuckle-dusters proves to be correct.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:38 / 02.08.04
SIX FEET UNDER SEASON FOUR SPOILERS

---

I like that idea of Jean returning by way of Six Feet Under. Maybe she'll start throwing onions at Scott.

Too soon!
 
 
Spaniel
14:42 / 02.08.04


Onwards
 
 
FinderWolf
13:58 / 03.08.04
I like that the bleachers of Ord's world are shaped all crazy and wild, like sine waves.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:24 / 10.08.04
Bumpety-bump, bub. When's #4 out?
 
 
chairmanWOW
13:27 / 11.08.04
What I'm talking about? I was just trying to point out the fact that everyone seems to assume that if Hank is cured he'll magically return to his original beast state. A cure for curing mutants would technically cure mutation. Beast's mutation is/was agility, super-strength and oversized mandible, not fur (he got the blue rug while fucking around with his genes). Remember?
 
 
The Natural Way
14:05 / 11.08.04
Ooookay. Here's Boboss's post again:

Smart, sorry mate, not sure what you're talking about. Are you saying that the cure can only turn Henry into a human, and not revert him to his primary mutation? If so, I'd like to know where you're getting your insider information. The fact is, we have no idea what the cure would do to a second stage mutant. Christ, even Henry barely understands his condition.

And, this time, try to respond to it.
 
 
Spaniel
15:39 / 11.08.04
...I was just trying to point out the fact that everyone seems to assume that if Hank is cured he'll magically return to his original beast state. A cure for curing mutants would technically cure mutation

Not everyone, just me, and I'm only speculating.

The thing is, Henry has two mutations, a primary one - bouncy beast - and a secondary one - hairy cat man.
The causative factors around Henry's secondary mutation are unknown - Henry has said as much himself.

Simply put, my position is this: We know next to nothing about secondary mutations (a point enforced during Whedon's run - we should be asking "why?"), we know next to nothing about the cure, it is, then, plausible that the cure will interact with Henry's secondary mutation in an unforeseen manner. I am speculating that the interaction will result in a reversion to his primary mutation.

There is no such thing as "by definition" here - we are not talking semantics. I assume that Joss intends the cure to be like any other drug: an unknown quantity in certain situations.

On a dramatic note, the fact that the cure has been introduced as a dramatic device almost guarantees it'll get used on an X-Man. Joss's old school creative sensibilities aren't likely to waste that kind of dramatic potential. For me, the question isn't which X-Men will be cured, but how many, and what will the effects of the cure be?
 
 
chairmanWOW
06:44 / 12.08.04
Varriage? What?!

Bobossboy, thanks for the elucidation but his secondary mutation is cat man, not hairy cat man...

Back to topic, Emma fusing molecules while in a wall does seem like a really unfun death, doesn't it?

I like Emma. She wears white lippie.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:20 / 12.08.04
Well, it's all a bit messy as GRANT Morrison seemed to write Beast as though his furry beast form was as much part of his mutant powers as strength, agility etc, hence his secondary mutation was a shift in the whole mutation. When Cassie Nova attacked him an issue later GRANT wrote her in the same way, treating his furryness as part of his natural state and ridiculing him over it. And Joss is appearing to run with it the same way. There's possibly scope for some retconning in the same way as Joe Strazynski wrote on Spiderman, 'Did the radioactivity allow the spider to give Peter it's powers, or was it a spider that gave Peter his powers that happened to be radioactive?' Therefore, did the lab accident turn Beast blue and furry, or was he going to turn blue and furry anyway and the lab accident was just about it happening then? After all, back in X-Factor it was Infectia's kiss which turned him back into the blue furry Beast we all knew and loved which was terribly handy (though no more than whatever it was that made him look human again also in that title).
 
 
Spaniel
14:27 / 12.08.04
Well, it's all a bit messy...

Yep, and open to exploitation.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:56 / 12.08.04
>> I like Emma. She wears white lippie.

What's a lippie? British slang for lingerie, maybe?
 
 
Axolotl
15:08 / 12.08.04
It's slang for lipstick. I don't know if it's UK specific, though it would suprise me.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
21:41 / 12.08.04
Henry's mutant life started out as "Human looking with ape-like abilities".

Then he messes with chemicals and turns himself into furry blue Beast, which for all intense purposes at the time wasn't part of his mutant heritage.

He gets turned back and forward a few times, each time going from Blue furry to his first mutation.

Grant "Cat's" him up and explains that THIS is the natural evolution of Henry's mutation. His playing with chemicals just forced some of the change a little early.

So theoretically if the cure works properly (which it probably won't) he'll go back to being human.
No mutant powers, nothing.
His cat-form is the end of his mutation whilst his "beast" form was a deviation from his normal evolution.

But to be honest does anyone here think that he WON'T be back to the blue furry ape form eventually? I love the feline appearance but Marvel are cutting back on being interesting now and reverting all their properties back to safer ground.
 
 
Triplets
02:14 / 13.08.04
I've looked at it this way. There's two types of mutation in the MU

Type 1: Artificial/External Mutation. This is the power origin for heroes such as the Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Spider-man, Captain America, T'Challa and a few dozen others. Some kind of external substance, stimulus or energy affects the body, which then adapts itself to prevent injury. The A-Gene.

Type 2: Natural/Internal Mutation: This is the X-Gene. This is what causes mutants to manifest their powers around puberty [whether due to stress or not]. It may activate in the womb, however. See, Beak, his kids, Prof. X/Nova womb-fight, Squidboy etc.

When one activates it nearly always prevents access to the other. IE, if you're a mutant and your powers kick in at puberty, your body won't be able to adapt if you get bitten by a radioactive spider. Likewise, if you get hit by radioactive fluid when you're a kid you'll get super-senses but you won't be manifesting other powers at puberty [assuming you survive anyway].

However, Henry, trying to cure/destroy/disable his X-Gene, the reaction was quite violent. Now, either his X-Gene used code from the dormant A-Gene to protect itself or the 'cure' was inadvertantly a bio-booster for it.

His, animal form kicked off early. However, he got all the fur instead and it fucked up his follicle colouring. I imagine if Henry HADN'T tried to cure himself he would have found himself transforming into a normal coloured man-cat by now. I leave the colour of his coat up to the furry-loving members of the board. However, I have a soft spot for a big Shakespear quoting tabby cat. FUCK YOU, GARDFIELD.
 
 
Triplets
02:22 / 13.08.04
Also, doesn't Dr. McCoy have three stages of mutation?

Stage 0: Dr. McCoy, Human, pHD
Stage 1: Bouncy Beast [X-Gene]
Stage 2: Hairy Blue Ape [A-Gene]
Stage 3: Cat-dude [X-Gene?]

Soo, he may very well lose all his powers and revert back to human form. [Stage 0]

But!! If his A-Gene remains intact, he may revert to human form but have a kind of half-Cro Magnon, half Neanderthalish, full body blue shag. A punk Cousin It, if you will.

Of course, he may just step back a stage and go back to being Bouncy Blue Beast. I can see Marvel taking this route, to be honest. The boring fuckers.
 
 
diz
03:33 / 13.08.04
I've looked at it this way. There's two types of mutation in the MU

Type 1: Artificial/External Mutation. This is the power origin for heroes such as the Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Spider-man, Captain America, T'Challa and a few dozen others. Some kind of external substance, stimulus or energy affects the body, which then adapts itself to prevent injury. The A-Gene.

Type 2: Natural/Internal Mutation: This is the X-Gene. This is what causes mutants to manifest their powers around puberty [whether due to stress or not]. It may activate in the womb, however. See, Beak, his kids, Prof. X/Nova womb-fight, Squidboy etc.


see, i've always looked at it this way:

there's only one primary source of superhuman powers in the MU, and that's the X-gene. some people are X-gene positive, and when they hit puberty, they start to express powers.

some people are X-gene recessive or latent or something, and under normal circumstances would never have powers. sometimes, though, they get exposed to something weird which triggers the X-gene. so, in other words, most people exposed to massive amounts of gamma radiation would just get cancer and die, but Bruce Banner was genetically different enough that the radiation turned him into the Hulk, though he never would have gotten powers on his own.

as far as Hank goes, i have always thought he would have turned blue and furry anyway at some point, but he sped it up by experimenting on himself.
 
 
chairmanWOW
08:28 / 13.08.04
Yes, lippie means lipstick. Thanks for clearing that up.

Everyone seems to be overlooking the obvious; secondary mutation is spurred on by traumatic or stressful periods. If a telepath with a chess-fetish gets buried under a tons worth of citadel along with the sliced up bits of her former students, she grows a diamond skin, thanks to her secondary mutation or if a certain hairless monkey man is caught in a horrific "lab accident" (an accident which was brought on by his inaptitude as a scientist, the very thing which used to be his anchor to normalcy (?), this could be considered awfully harrowing and thus results in his secondary mutation emerging. The chemicals in the lab incident probably didn’t even have an affect, apart from damaging his x-gene. That’s way he keeps on devolving/evolving. First mutation: unbeastlike Beast, second mutation: beastie Beast, the cat-thing is just a result of his DNA being damaged.

I know Jean’s dead and thus has nothing to do with Astonishing X-Men 4, but how did she get her secondary mutation? I read somewhere that Xavier locked her telepathy away for a while and that for most of her early years as an X-Man she only used the telekinesis that Xavier had trained her to use. Was the death of lil Annie the “traumatic trigger” or did something happen during one of Xavier’s training sessions? Oooo, scandalous!
 
 
Spaniel
09:59 / 13.08.04
Not sure that's supposed to be the case with the MU, Diiz. Although the whole super-gene thingumy has been invoked to explain (most) dooper-powers in the DCU.

Perhaps we should care a little less about the mechanisms behind mutation/super-powers - it's all rather vague to say the least - and more about the dramatic potential created by the absence of clear information. My speculation (for fun and frolics, folks) is simply a way to exploit the aforementioned absence, in what I consider to be an entertaining, dramatic, believable fashion, and in accordance with the potential of the story-so-far.
 
 
Augury
10:38 / 13.08.04
little theory here...

If the character returning is Phoenix, and given that Joss has been respectful of Grant's run.

We're dealing with a story of curing mutations here. Remember back in Grant's run, when the Shi'ar said the Phoenix was coming to disinfect the Earth

"The mutant species has registered toxic levels of aggression - nature itself has chosen to deal with your kind" - Araki in NXM 133.

Now perhaps Jean/Phoenix's body is being used to power the curing (or disinfection) of mutation. Ord is an alien, perhaps his race share the Sh'ar's view on the Phoenix.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:41 / 13.08.04
Have to disagree with you Ditz, there's no evidence that I know of for Spidey, Captain America or the FF having powers before whatever happened that gave them powers. People like the FF are mutates, because something external happened to give them powers, people like Wolverine are mutants because it's internal. People like Beast are both mutants and mutates. Unfortunately the verb in both cases to describe the change is mutate. IIRC.
 
 
Spaniel
11:27 / 13.08.04
And the list could go on and on, Flam...

...Doctor Strange, Thor, The Hulk, Captain Britain, Giant Man...
 
 
The Falcon
11:51 / 13.08.04
The Hulk's powers like Reed Richards do seem fairly innately tied to their personality and background.
 
 
_Boboss
11:52 / 13.08.04
nearly mate:

doc strange = no mutation there, just a long hard slog

thor = god riding a human host

cap brit = parents are from another dimension, needs costume to first activate and then enhance powers

geek me bitch! geek me good!
 
 
Spaniel
12:05 / 13.08.04
Two baffling posts, one after the other.

Dunc, were only arguing that their powers aren't the result of an x-gene activating or somesuch.

Neil, who are you responding to? If mygoodself, could explain what it is you're talking about? I know all that shit.

Matched your geek, but will I raise?
 
 
Spaniel
12:07 / 13.08.04
I should stress that I wasn't trying to list a bunch of mutates, just heroes whose powers have nothing to do with x-genes.

This is getting far too geeky. I really hate talking about this shit.
 
 
_Boboss
12:42 / 13.08.04
oh, i thought you were looking for common or garden mutates when n fact you hadn't.

must say, i believe the content of your last sentence to be entirely false.
 
 
Spaniel
15:03 / 13.08.04
I really can't remember the last time we discussed the difference between mutants and mutates and the science of the MU. It's a thin line but I have to draw it somewhere.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:04 / 13.08.04
Now is the time when I really want the next issue to come out already.
 
 
Sax
10:28 / 14.08.04
Back on topic (slightly) could the Phoenix be a clone of Jean? Doctor Rao has locked away (in issue three) a suspiciously red-haired little girl.
 
 
Spaniel
13:21 / 14.08.04
I know how you feel, Wolf.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:13 / 14.08.04
The little girl manifested her nightmares didn't she? Doesn't it make sense that it's some sort of nightmares/dreams scenario, which gives us hope that Scott might not get Jean back, just a manifestation of his wish to have her back (which is better than actually getting her back, but still ignoring the end of Morrison's run with Scott getting past his relationship to Jean), and the doctor having a cure because she wants to come up with a cure for mutants? Quite what Crappo from the Breakworld is in it for is still anyone's guess.
 
  

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