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Underground > Comic Books >

Astonishing X-Men: BIG BIG Spoiler For #4

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I'm Rick Jones, bitch

14:19 / 30.07.04

yawn

If you want to repost this, please host it on your own server, mmmkay?

The Natural Way

14:51 / 30.07.04

Arrgh! No self control! Arrgh!

Oh well....

15:00 / 30.07.04

Jesus, that didn't take long.

As I've said about most of the changes Grant made to the X-Men that Marvel seems hell-bent on reversing - I knew it would happen eventually, just not quite so soon.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:00 / 30.07.04

Y'know, out of context, that page could very misleading. I wonder. Start your speculation engines now, kids!

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:06 / 30.07.04

I'm also not sure to what extent Jean coming back in the present day counts as a reversal either - Morrison pretty much established that she was functionally immortal, always returning, and even whoever wrote her epitaph seemed to know that.

Matthew Fluxington

15:23 / 30.07.04

I agree with Flyboy - that page is extremely vague, but also consistent with the previous Morrison stories. Jean comes back, it's what she does. But I'm not sure if that is what is really going to happen.

15:28 / 30.07.04

I love Jean, but I would really like her to stay away for a longer while. Maybe this is deceptive...or just a fantasy scene of what Scott envisions.

I'd much rather have Illyana back and the hairless Beast and no Jean resurrection during the Whedon run.

Matthew Fluxington

15:48 / 30.07.04

I think that you're out of luck, Finder Wolf!

I don't think that they should bring back Illyana. Her death had some meaning and importance, and really, some characters have to stay dead to keep things somewhat believable.

Ideally, there should be a rule against killing off Magneto, Jean, or anyone else on that level of popularity and importance. It does get tedious bringing them back over and over, so it's best not to kill them in the first place, right?

16:21 / 30.07.04

I don't think that they should bring back Illyana. Her death had some meaning and importance

Did it really? Illyana was once an interesting and engaging character, a demon sorceress who, like magneto, was at times quite amiguous in her commitment to the peaceful methods of Charles Xavier. She was the ruler of a demonic realm who had sold more than half her soul... Then she but was effectively killed - rescued from becoming the demonic ruler at returned to the pure and innocent age of five or so... she then does pretty much nothing for the next 5 years or so before contracting the legacy virus and dying. She was effectively dead way before she was killed...

Matthew Fluxington

16:31 / 30.07.04

Well, that's exactly it. Her original storyline ran its course, and then she was killed by the AIDS stand-in. Either way, there's no good reason for her to come back. I'm all for introducing a new character which explores similar themes, but there's no justification for bringing back Illyana other than nostalgia.

19:17 / 30.07.04

I think it would have purpose, Flux, but only to add another layer to the characterization of Kitty Pryde. But, I do not think that Illyana's resurrection being done for the sake of Kitty's character justifies bringing her back. I say leave her be. I just thought it was likely.

I still do not buy that Jean is returning. It looks pretty proof positive, but the character's return is slated to happen in issue 5, not 4. I'm going with Dream Sequence. Scott entertains thoughts and anxiety over Jean's impending return, saying he feels nothing so the reader understands how devoted he is to Emma, only to have it never come to be anyway.

19:29 / 30.07.04

The character's slated to return in issue 5 but this is being spoken of on some boards as the final page of issue 4, so that could fit, kinda.

I was bothered by the return of Magneto and the "return" of Xorn because they a) happened so soon, and b) happened in ways that invalidated aspects of Grant's run. If this is actually Jean returning then Joss'll be guilty of a), but will hopefully avoid b).

Our Lady Has Left the Building

19:44 / 30.07.04

Very disappointing, but then Marvel have already insisted that the writers bring back a fictional character I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. It does seem a bit dream sequency though. Doesn't it? Please, say it does...

19:45 / 30.07.04

This might be a bit far fetched but that could always be Rachel Summers? But I'd rather it were Jean.

19:47 / 30.07.04

If this is actually Jean returning then Joss'll be guilty of a), but will hopefully avoid b).

well, a) may very well be out of his hands. Xorn was dictated by Marvel, and i would assume that Jean and Mags very well might be, too.

as far as b) goes, Whedon actually has a really good record here so far. he seems really intent on building on GM's NXM, not tearing it down.

if anything, the captions would seem to be a dramatic confirmation of that. if Jean comes back and Scott doesn't dump Emma and run back to her side like a puppy, it will substantially confirm and develop one of the major, lasting changes GM made, and totally resonate with . on top of that, if he addresses the lack-of-surprise and progress and lasting change head-on, he'll be delving back into the controversial waters of the much-maligned Planet X. if Joss Whedon actually goes balls-out and turns this into a full-bore critique of how nothing ever changes in X-land, i will sacrifice goats in his honor.

plus, all the fanboys would have fucking aneurysms. the degree of anticipation of a happy-smoochy reunion of the uber-X-couple in certain quarters is almost palpable.

20:02 / 30.07.04

Re: the Scott/Emma/Jean thing, there was a brief interview with Joss a while back and his response to a question about the triangle was:

"I always thought that Superman should just fall in love with the wrong woman once; that’s how I feel about Scott. And how difficult and unseemly, and yet kind of potentially beautiful that relationship is, fascinates me."

So it doesn't sound like the kind of thing he'd willingly erase any time soon. Maybe an editorial mandate'll do it for him.

Matthew Fluxington

20:18 / 30.07.04

This might be a bit far fetched but that could always be Rachel Summers?

It wouldn't make sense, since Rachel is currently a regular cast member of Uncanny X-Men.

Though I do agree that it's upsetting to see so much of Planet X reversed so soon, I don't really think it's anyone's fault but Morrison's. He should've had the sense not to kill off Magneto. He was asking for it, and he acknowledges it in the story, no less. Jean really is not very problematic, since dying and coming back is HER THING.

In a way, Jean coming back relatively soon makes a lot more sense than waiting a bunch of years - the characters haven't finished grieving, and Scott has spent a good chunk of time with Emma. He has finally moved on and has taken on a great deal of responsibility, but here comes Jean, who will tempt him to regress. Hopefully he won't, but either situation would yield some interesting situations for the characters.

Jean's return would create a very peculiar situation for all of the X-Men. They would have to deal with how there's this person in their life who is always coming and going, fucking up their emotions and stunting their growth.

The first time you're resurrected, it's a miracle. The second and third time, it's very "well, thank God!" Now it's getting tedious - how are the character supposed to feel when they are repeating this trauma, without any closure? Will they even care about whether Jean lives or dies when she's back again, or do they just assume that she'll never really be gone and shrug it off the next time she goes?

20:24 / 30.07.04

Then let it be Madelyne.

For real. Evil twins, cliché pathos, and all that.

Matthew Fluxington

20:27 / 30.07.04

I don't see how bringing back arbitrary bits of confusing continuity is at all having to do with Joss Whedon's writing style on this comic. His writing is refreshing mostly because it's so light on hardcore continuity baggage and heavy on believable character drama.

20:33 / 30.07.04

Oh I was mostly responding to the fanboy anuerysms from above. I "posted reply" and then there were two or three posts between.

In all respects though, it might be cool for Jean to "play Maddie" for the sake of the X-Men. I mean, yeah, she's back, she sees what's going on and how much the X-Men NEED her to not be around. So she says to everyone how she's Maddie and "evil", and moves on to bigger and better, like Avengers, maybe?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

10:29 / 31.07.04

So it's a definite that Marvel were bringing back someone important then? I wonder how Joss is going to have a full-powered Phoenix walking around, as Grant pretty much wrote it that Jean IS Phoenix IS Jean. Oh wait, I know "You know all that 'Jean is merely the house that I live in' stuff? I was talking complete bollocks. God, I must have been high when I said that. Sorry. I'll just depower myself now shall I?"

10:34 / 31.07.04

You know, I really think that's a dream sequence, but, if it isn't... Well if it isn't, I hope Whedon won't make Scott go back to Jean.

I mean, for crying out loud! She's died, what? Three times?! And he's "died" too. How can a relationship survive this kinda thing. It's playing around with peoples feelings and minds, and I think that in a way it's like insulting your partner.

"God, don't tell me you believed I had died. I never die you idiot!"

I really think Scott and Jean did love each other and that it was a beautifull thing, but after that special moment on the moon when she died for the second time, their love was gone.

Besides, it's refreshing to see what this Scott&Emma is evolving into and it helps de-wussifying the character. It's a relationship I really believe in, for some reason.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

10:59 / 31.07.04

This is why I'm in love with the ideas of X-Men but why save Grant's run I've consistently hated the comics.

S'like the Norse or the Greek gods, innit?

Wolverine and Odin are both cool motherfuckers, but if you take them in the strictest sense of their continuity, they've had some really shit adventures.

But boil the X-Men down to the core, stick the Vs up at continuity and use those pre-made characters to rush into a fantastic 42 issue sci-fi storyline and it rocks. That's what I loved about GM's run; it was like when somebody takes those mythological characters and writes a really great story for them. They don't have to develop the characters or their traits, they can just get on with it.

But that story's over now, and the continuity mess begins.

If Jean comes back I kind of feel that Wedon's going to forget about the egg concept, which was kind of cool and a great gift to the marvel concept base, as well as a smooth bit of retconing to make everything a bit more consistent.

Flux: What, you're blaming Morrison for writting a cool fucking story? Magneto had to really die after planet X - he was a mass murderer, and at the end of a (pretty much)self-contained run, that's all you could do with him. No where else for the character to go. Plus it was a fucking awesome death. And Jean had to die, to set up the next arc.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

11:02 / 31.07.04

I can't see why Scott would go for someone like Emma. She's got no class and she's really annoying! Wrong girl at the right time, I guess.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:06 / 31.07.04

See, this is something I disagree with Grant about. IIRC, in that big-ass interview he did recently he claimed that Scott was more likely to go for someone like Emma rather than a ridiculously star-crossed through death and back relationship with someone like Jean. But of course, he also split them apart so they were hardly together for long between Grant taking over NXM and Jean discovering them having an affair at the end of year two. By then she was almost all the way towards becomming the Phoenix.

If Jean does come back and is in any way still interested in Scott, I hope at the very least Joss plays it with all three characters actively working out where they stand with one another. If Scott is put in a position to choose between Emma and Jean, even if the next thing either of them do is rebuff him, I want Joss to give Scott the chance to choose his relationship in the way I don't think Grant really ever did. I also hope that he isn't using Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike or Angel/Cordy as models for where he takes this.

16:05 / 31.07.04

IMHO,

Jean is NOT coming back because Marvel Editorial dictated that Rachael Summers return to the X-Men. Look at her. She has Famke Jannsen's exact hair from X2. This is the Jean replacement for new readers. If Joss intended Jean to come back, Rachael wouldn't be here.

16:36 / 31.07.04

I think its funny when people that hate comic book continuity get pissed off because new writers ignore what Morrison has done.

Matthew Fluxington

18:37 / 31.07.04

I wonder how Joss is going to have a full-powered Phoenix walking around

Well, if she's the body that they've been testing the cure on...

Matthew Fluxington

19:13 / 31.07.04

I also hope that he isn't using Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike or Angel/Cordy as models for where he takes this

It's more like the Willow/Tara/Oz situation, actually.

07:34 / 01.08.04

I think its funny when people that hate comic book continuity get pissed off because new writers ignore what Morrison has done.

Disliking slavish continuity does not exclude getting pissed off when inferior writers ignore quality work. It's not an either or situation.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

09:37 / 01.08.04

What he just said. I hate bad/really old continuity, like good/new continuity.

The Natural Way

17:43 / 01.08.04

Okay, all the theories clogging up this thread need a bit of slashing with Occam's shaving utensil. Now, how does the 'blurb' for 4 read at the end of 3?

"You won't believe what's next...."

So, it's gonna be big. It's gonna be something fans will REALLY care about....and I'm not sure Illyana or Rachel returning fit into this category. Now, it could be that the big event's gonna be unpredictable stuff, but I'm fairly sure we've got it clinched on this thread. It's either Hank reverting OR Jean returning. Or both. The cover (?) image suggests that it'll have something to do w/ Hank, the image at the top of this thread suggests otherwise. Can't choose between 'em myself, but, have to say, I'm still fairly interested in the reverting idea. Why? Because Hank is clearly obsessing about his past beneath the words "You won't believe...blah..."; because, yes, closure, closure, closure (to what is, believe it or not, a storyline); because the cure provides a simple plot device to get him all hairless again and it would be a nice narrative spin on what is at the moment an either/or plot (either Hank demutifies himself or not). And I get the feeling that most people here are against the idea on conceptual grounds - they hate the *idea* of it - but ideas and execution are very, very different things. If Joss executes it well I'll be fine with it, and I've got no reason to doubt him.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

02:01 / 02.08.04

Someone is coming back in this arc, (as evidenced by all the marvel promo stuff droning on about someone returning), although personally I figure all the Phoenix stuff for misdirection. Whedon according to rumor had to fight a bit to keep Scott and Emma together, he wouldn't reset that relationship (which is becoming my favourite comics relationship) so soon.

My money is on Colossus.

11:20 / 02.08.04

I'd hardly say reverting Beast back to his original hairless form was a "character returning" situation. He's already there.
Despite the fact I think it's an interesting twist on poor Hank's story.
If it's Jean I won't mind but I won't particularly care either. It's hardly an earth shattering event really is it? Now Mag's came back AND Xorn she's kinda assured to be back anyway.
I can't think who it might be, has to be someone who'd mess up current the status quo between certain characters in Astonishing as evidenced by the solicits but not someone that'd be too obvious (I don't think).
GM was refused Colossus but I think Joss could swing it.
There's not really anyone out there thats "available" to return (either from the dead or from Limbo) that could excite me.

11:24 / 02.08.04

That is a dream that Scott is having and it's also Jean revealing herself to him. She's probably speaking to him through his dreams because she’s a god now and that's how god's get their messages across. She's like "Scott, I'm back but I won't intrude in you life, I accept that things have changed and that there isn't a place for me anymore" (She's emotionally mature that way). She'll serve as the Phoenix and do the things a phoenix does but she won't be bothered with x-men business anymore.

If Beast is going to use the cure, he's going to turn into a human. He won't be a mutant; he won't have oversized hands and feet, he won't have super strength or super agility anymore. He'll be a useless human and ultimately no longer x-men material. I can’t see how this will serve the story or Whedon's overall run. The cure is meant to heal completely; it won't just undo Hanks genetic meddling. Is it meant to only negate secondary mutations or self-afflicted mutations as in Hanks case?

Caustic Colossus met with mordant Morph...aha!

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