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Concerns regarding the lack of effectiveness of gender reassignment

 
  

Page: 12345(6)

 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:05 / 11.10.06
David, I have to say that I disagree with your assessment of the situation. Like Tatchell says, Reid isn't the only doctor to have had patients decide they've made a mistake.

This is just going to make matters worse, I feel. The Harry Benjamin SOC's are actually changing to decrease, rather than increase, the waiting-period for surgery. (It now suggests 3 months as the time within which ftm's can have top surgery after beginning hormones.) So while the HBIGDA lines its committees with trans representatives, and brings its standards up to date with actual cultural and social practices, UK legal regulations are likely to become more conservative and less related to actual social reality.
 
 
Twice
22:21 / 10.11.06
There is a very strong feeling in the UK that Russell Reid fulfilled the vast majority of trans peoples’ needs by a sensible process that allowed people to move to a certain point of ‘transition’ and discover for themselves whether life within the opposite (binary) gender ‘suits’ them. Reid allowed a great many people to recognise their own problems, identify a solution and, most often, come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Russell Reid has helped a great number of people, over the years, to come to a personal state which suits them.

Sadly, there have been too many who have persevered beyond the point at which they might have said “Oh, maybe this isn’t the right thing for me.” The argument is that Russell Reid should have been able to spot these people before they made irreversible changes to their lifestyle.

Reid was a forceful advocate of ‘self determination’. This is an admirable stance. There are very few people who will present, convincingly, to a doctor and say “I need to change my sex”. There are, however, a number of people who do so unadvisedly.

The doctors at Charing Cross have become, over a period of time, poorly represented within internet forae for the reason that they…for want of a better phrase…’take no prisoners’. On the internet, there is a great deal of discussion about how to deal with Charing Cross. Successful and comfortable patients of CX are rare on the internet because we choose to live without the internet trans community. This is because the Charing Cross system works, generally.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:58 / 23.05.07
Sex change doctor rushed treatments, GMC rules.

Julie Bindel talks to Claudia, who was rushed through a sex change and quickly regretted it. Who knew The Silence of the Lambs could be considered a useful diagnostic tool?
 
 
*
05:47 / 23.05.07
That's an interesting interview and one I'll want to come back to at some point. But not right now.
 
 
Ex
07:49 / 23.05.07
Julie Bindel didn't believe anyone could 'be' a gender not that of their assigned gender three years ago, and said so in highly offensive terms in a column that still makes my head hurt.

So - fascinating story from Claudia, but couldn't they have got Norman Tebbit, or the Pope, to do the interview?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
08:30 / 23.05.07
Quite. Please to have Julie Bindel's head fall off.

Also, I'm not quite sure when the title change for this thread went through, but for me at least, the eye-pokiness was only partly in the term "going transsexual". The current title still means the whole "debate" is still centred around putting trans advocates on the defensive. I find this is made worse by the connection between this thread and the Guardian (i.e. regular links throughout), the vast majority of whose articles relating to transgender issues seem to be along the lines of the one above. I mean, yes, Claudia has an important story to tell, but publishing ten articles on "regretters" for every one "positive" article does not a pretty picture make.

Actually, the very fact that a large part of this thread is predicated on articles from a newspaper happy to host Julie "hosepipe" Bindel is something I find rather troubling.
 
 
*
13:22 / 23.05.07
Yeah. Major problem with title = presumption that there is no effectiveness in gender reassignment.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:47 / 23.05.07
Well, the aim was to retain the sense of the thread starter's title, and thus the attitude behind it, while reducing eyebleed. If you'd rather we could have "Concerns regarding the effectiveness of gender reassignment, or lack thereof", or "Bindels looking to stripmine experiences of Barbelith's transgender membership for sneery articles about gender realignment, CHECK HERE FIRST".
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:07 / 23.05.07
Latter, please.
 
 
Quantum
00:45 / 24.05.07
Gah, uh, I had no idea Bindel was so odious- Ex, that link is foul.
The abstract of this thread reads "Looking at a Guardian study into the effectiveness of gender reassignment treatment." I think if we make it Looking aghast at... it might be better.
 
 
*
07:15 / 24.05.07
It doesn't equally represent the opinions of all the people who have participated in the thread, though; IIRC Ganesh had more neutral or positive things to say about the study, and David Batty posted in defense of his article.

I think the issue is that there are questions about the effectiveness of gender reassignment, such as: For whom is it effective? For whom is it not effective? Should we be concentrating on making sure that only those for whom it will be effective will undergo it, or should we be concentrating on making sure that for those who undergo it, it will be effective? For those for whom it is not (or will not likely be) effective, what positive alternatives exist? What can be done for those who have undertaken reassignment in whole or in part for whom it is not working?

I think that the idea that reassignment should be altogether discarded as a treatment is not one that many people intimately familiar with transgender issues have advanced. It is hard for me to accept the argument that reassignment is generally ineffective in comparison to other treatments, since I know of no other treatments that work even as consistently as reassignment. It is reasonable to ask what commonalities exist, if any, among people who are happy with their gender post-transition, as compared to those that exist, if any, among people who are unhappy. The shift in perspective from "You should only be allowed to do this if you're one of the people it will work for" to "If you choose to do this, let's make sure this will be one of the ones that works" is a very important one—it causes us to ask, are any of the problems that lead to unhappiness post-transition problems with the process, rather than with the person? Are there changes in the process that can help prevent folks from having a result that is not an improvement in their lives, without making reassignment more difficult to access for those who need it (who already have trouble enough accessing care)?
 
 
alas
13:11 / 24.05.07
The shift in perspective from "You should only be allowed to do this if you're one of the people it will work for" to "If you choose to do this, let's make sure this will be one of the ones that works" is a very important one—it causes us to ask, are any of the problems that lead to unhappiness post-transition problems with the process, rather than with the person? Are there changes in the process that can help prevent folks from having a result that is not an improvement in their lives, without making reassignment more difficult to access for those who need it (who already have trouble enough accessing care)?

This is an extremely helpful reframing of the issue, from my perspective, id. Thanks so much for these thoughts. From my reading of the interview with Claudia, the problem WAS lack of enough attention to her* specific situation: she made it clear that she wasn't really "choosing to do this" herself; she was essentially coerced into doing it by an abusive, homophobic boyfriend. Hers may be a pretty unusual sitiuation, but obviously, there is a need, in all of medicine, but in this field perhaps most especially, to look at people's whole lives, to make an extra effort to make a safe place where they can look at themselves as whole people.

I remember the first time I went to a county medical office (i.e., one of the few public health institutions in the US, where low-income people can receive basic medical care). I went there because it was the only place in a rural district I could get birth control pills at a reasonable price, being a student with little income and no health insurance; the nearest Planned Parenthood office was probably a two hour drive away.

The nurse surprised me by sitting down with me and walking me through a series of open ended questions that were carefully and sensitively written and asked, from my perspective, that I could see were asked to help me explore my eating habits, my relationship health.

This is tricky, because it can feel very intrusive, I know, and maybe it was the person asking the questions who put me at ease and seemed genuinely caring, but I felt "seen" as a whole person by a medical person for the first time in my life. They wanted to make sure that I knew that, if I were in or found myself in an abusive relationship, or if I was, say, having eating-disorder issues, they were a safe place to turn to, and that getting birth control can be a crisis point in some relationships. I left feeling really good. That good feeling was memorable, because it's very rare in my experience with the US medical establishment.

Anyway, I know that many transgender people would be very suspicious of too many current medical professionals sitting down and asking them questions like these, particularly if the trans community is not involved in helping to shape the questions and, ideally, if there's not a real, professional presence of transpeople in the medical offices that work with transpeople. But I wish more of medicine were holistic, and genuinely caring, rather than the bureaucratic, soulless, objectifying, profit-driven, and dissecting institutions we have, by and large, here in the US.

*I'm uncomfortable with this pronoun, given that Claudia apparently does not really, internally, identify as female, but my only source is the Bindel article, which used this pronoun.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:35 / 24.05.07
That Julie Bindel article makes me effing mad. I have a lot of sympathy for people who go through gender reassignment processes because everyone around them thinks they should, but Claudia's story is just used so that Bindel can imply gender reassignment surgeries shouldn't take place at all.

And alas, I get the feeling that Claudia is quite happy in her identity as a woman, but not happy with the fact that she was pushed into surgery. This is not uncommon. But it's a very different kettle of fish to someone who regrets transitioning as a whole, and reverses all social markers of their transitioned gender. The standards of care are just as much to blame, here -- GRS is still considered normal, normative, the only way to progress. Transwomen who do not have surgery are considered freaks, or not really trans at all.
 
 
Ex
14:41 / 24.05.07
id, your post made me think about fears and responsibilities, particularly in the context of the UK, particularly this bit:

The shift in perspective from "You should only be allowed to do this if you're one of the people it will work for" to "If you choose to do this, let's make sure this will be one of the ones that works" is a very important one

Sorry (and please call me on it) if this falls into rambling, or seems callous, or just contains big innaccuracies.

This 'spotting' model presupposes a lot of things: that one's 'success' or 'failure' through and after transition is innate, or at least more about who you are when you start than your ongoing situation and circumstance - that people bring their own resources, and the gatekeepers just assess them. Even if you're not dividing people up into 'proper transsexual' and 'shoved down the wrong path', I think it encourages a certain division between the individual and their circumstances. (It could also imply that transphobia like Bindel's has no relevance to the 'sucess' of a transition, because it's the individual who decides their level of 'success', not society's treatment of them.) It also presupposes that the medical processes are themselves neutral, and if they're inappropriate that it's the person who is the bad fit.

I'm particularly worried that such a focus on 'success' or 'failure' would push for caution rather than care - that those who aren't waved through to transition could be seen as less the 'responsibility' of the medical profession than those who may transition and have subsequent regrets/problems/shifts in how they perceive their identity. It could be seen as better to do nothing than to do something mistakenly. Whereas I'd say that 'doing' and 'not doing' in terms of allowing or disallowing medical intervention are both acts, in this scenario. (I'm thinking in the context of the UK National Health Service as an expression of society's care for individuals - I think it may not work as well as an argument for the US, where there seems more focus on approaching a number of individual healthcare professionals, who make individual judgements and have their own gatekeeping systems). (I don't think that's how individuals or organisations at all stages of 'the medical profession' see things - they're dealing with other pressures and criteria, sometimes conflicting ones, as discussed upthread and elsewhere on the board.)

Stories about individual traumatic transitions, phrased as they usually are, I believe scare people into binary thinking (that person wasn't a proper transsexual/correct candidate, and they weren't 'spotted') and encourage further restrictions on medical transition (if you can't always 'spot' them, then don't treat anyone).

I don't feel easy using parts of the article on Claudia, as it seems a bit odd to be commenting on someone's life, self-presentation and so forth, to point out potential bias in the interviewer. However, the way Bindel phrases one part of Claudia's life sums this up, for me: after an assault and some truly terrible treatment by the police, 'Claudia had the opportunity to reflect further on how drastic a mistake it had been to have sex-change surgery to correct her psychological problems.' Bindel is certain that the 'mistake' has already happened, and that Claudia is just 'reflecting' on it. There isn't the suggestion that Claudia's experiences after her transition and surgery might influence whether or not she felt it to be a 'mistake'.
 
 
*
15:25 / 24.05.07
Good thoughts, all, thank you for them. Ex exspecially (that's a genuine typo, barbelites) for helping me flesh out the direction I was going with that.

I don't feel comfortable conjecturing based on the article how Claudia might identify internally, especially not on the basis of that interview. But I want to say that I have my suspicions that it is not as simple as the article presents, or as Claudia is quoted here:
"I fundamentally regret having had surgery. I could have lived as a woman without mutilating my body, but no one talked to me about the possibility," she says. "I could have been enabled to live happily as a gay man. Instead I was put in this box - transsexual - simply because I did not conform to what psychiatrists think a real man should be."
I do not know whether Claudia experiences any greater complexity or not; I suspect so. The debate around this is polarizing and has a tendency to encourage people to absolutize their experiences. In my experience, people concerned for the right of trans people to do as they wish with their bodies tend to speak as if everyone who wants to transition medically should be enabled to do so at their earliest possible convenience; people who are concerned for trans people to not have the heartache of an undesired outcome of medical transition tend to speak as if no one should be enabled to transition medically at all. In our hearts I think most of us know it's a more complex issue than that, but we also know that we're trying to convince a public and a medical establishment with (as a whole) no time or patience or personal experience of the complexities. So by erasing the complexities the way we speak, we reinforce this problem. I am often tempted to simplify matters so that people will treat me the way I want to be treated and give me access to the things I need access to. I hope in the future I can resist this temptation better than I have.

alas, the experience you describe with your provider is very helpful here, thank you. It's nice to have a good example or two in discussions like these. I think you're right that many trans people are suspicious of questions like these. I remember a discussion with a younger friend who was alarmed that her provider was asking her questions about her sexual desires and practices; she was afraid that admissions about her kinks would lead her practitioner to assume she was not a "real transsexual". I wondered then, and I'm wondering again, whether that was the motivation for the questions or whether the practitioner just wanted to open up the floor for those issues. But in a situation where I was talking to possibly the only person who could give me access to resources I felt I needed, and that I may only have one shot at, I would probably lie about those things myself.

I'm particularly worried that such a focus on 'success' or 'failure' would push for caution rather than care - that those who aren't waved through to transition could be seen as less the 'responsibility' of the medical profession than those who may transition and have subsequent regrets/problems/shifts in how they perceive their identity. It could be seen as better to do nothing than to do something mistakenly. Whereas I'd say that 'doing' and 'not doing' in terms of allowing or disallowing medical intervention are both acts, in this scenario. (I'm thinking in the context of the UK National Health Service as an expression of society's care for individuals - I think it may not work as well as an argument for the US, where there seems more focus on approaching a number of individual healthcare professionals, who make individual judgements and have their own gatekeeping systems).

Ex, I think you're right, and I think it is an issue in the US as well, because I know of very few providers who do not view transition as a "to treat or not to treat" situation. I think that the handful of low-cost public trans clinics are better in this regard simply because they do not have the resources to push people into accepting changes that they don't want, and at the same time are bound by the ethic of turning no one away.
 
 
*
17:08 / 26.05.07
top, because I think this is still a good conversation to be having and I'm not ready to see it pushed off the front page yet.
 
 
David Batty
21:03 / 29.05.07
Disco - the points is he is the only psychiatrist in this field to have been investigated by the GMC. And the only one found guilty of serious professional misconduct.

Tatchell knows sod all about the case - his comment on the Guardian's CIF site was a barely disguised rewrite of a transgender activist's comment, sent out via email a few days earlier. I've got a lot of respect for the guy, but not when he jumps into a debate without doing his homework first.

If the GMC has a report of serious professional misconduct - and there is evidence to back up the claim - it is obliged to investigate. Similar arguments against an investigation - it will put doctors off working in the field; it will undermine this field of medicine - were made by supporters of Profs Southall & Meadows. If the GMC had not investigated it would have risked losing the public and professional trust. As the GMC disciplinary panel chairman stressed, its findings should not be seen as a judgment on the merits of gender reassignment treatment/services.

While the GMC's verdict could be seen as politically astute - guilty but allowed to continue practising - as it lets both sides to claim victory, the downside is it doesn't resolve - or even direct - the ongoing dispute between the Reid and Charing Cross camps. With widespread cuts to GID services, the community is not best served by its leaders & clinicians being so divided.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:06 / 30.05.07
Here's a couple of emails from Press for Change, mainly about the Bindel article. I'd link to them if PfC had been able to update their archives in the last few years.

23/05/07
Spinning Bindel
New readers to PFC-News may not be aware of the context in which today's article by Lesbian Feminist Julie Bindel is set.

In February 2004 Julie published a piece in the Guardian's Weekend Magazine under the title "Gender Benders Beware", leading to a storm of protest and a substantial printed apology from the newspaper's Readers' Editor, referring to "...a column that did no favours for an often abused minority".

For the apology see:

http://www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2004q1/msg00111.htm

And for the original article see:

http://www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2004q1/msg00043.htm

A quick read of those two items from three and a half years ago may help to remind people that this latest piece, capitalising on the news of the Russell Reid case in the GMC, is little more than an expression of the same ideology, using the same hallmark techniques to misrepresent the facts.

For instance, in all those three and a half years (and given all the publicity awarded to the Russell Reid complainants) nobody is any closer to having found any more "regret cases" than the nine or ten that we've always known about and have been endlessly recycled by journalists like herself.

Those cases are very sad, of course, and it's really important that we improve things in ways that continue to try and avoid such outcomes.

However, those nine or ten cases need to be seen in the context of the 2100 people who've applied quite purposefully for legal recognition following successful transition -- a process that requires applicants to make a statutory declaration about their wish and intent to remain in their acquired gender for the rest of their lives.

Very few clinical processes could better a negative outcome rate of 5 in every 1,000.

So, the lie starts in the very exposition of Bindel's case, where she refers to "a growing number" of people regretting their transition.

The challenge to her must be to show the world her figures because, quite frankly, I don't believe her. If you are writing to the Guardian about today's piece, therefore, I would recommend compassion for those handful of people who made mistakes and need someone else to blame them on, but I think it would be best to then focus all your attention on the need for Bindel to show the world her data and, through that, justify her claims.

If Julie Bindel cannot justify that serious claim then it would be right to demand that she retract it.

- Christine Burns


23/05/07
Mistaken Spin


FOR PUBLICATION

Sir,

Had Julie Bindel not succumbed to the desire to spin a falsehood then I could have been writing tonight to praise an otherwise thoughtful piece about the importance of people finding harmony with their gender identity. ["Mistaken Identity", 23rd May]. Claudia's story is undoubtedly a sad and cautionary tale, which we can all agree we'd like to avoid. Leading trans community advocates like myself have common ground with Julie on the importance of people being able to be themselves, and not feel pressured into genital or any other surgery to make others more comfortable - that's why we fought and won the principle that such surgery was not essential for legal recognition of gender changes. However, the lie that "a growing number of male-to-female transsexuals" regret their surgery simply doesn't concur with the facts. If the number were growing then journalists like herself would not have been recycling the same handful of tales for as long as I can remember. Set against the thousands who've purposely sought and obtained legal recognition of the permanence of their change, this little pool of less than a dozen cases simply isn't getting any larger. That's not to diminish the sadness of those cases, or to say we shouldn't carry on striving to ensure they remain so rare. But if Julie has evidence to the contrary then she should present it. Otherwise a retraction is called for.

Christine Burns MBE
Trans Rights Campaigner
www.pfc.org.uk/node/27
Manchester, UK


What did the Guardian choose to publish?

Trans community advocates have common ground with Julie Bindel on the importance of people being able to be themselves and not feel pressured into genital or other surgery to make others more comfortable - that's why we fought and won the principle that such surgery was not essential for legal recognition of gender changes. But the claim that "a growing number of male-to-female transsexuals" regret their surgery simply doesn't concur with the facts - hence the recycling of the same handful of tales for as long as I can remember.

Christine Burns
Trans rights campaigner, Manchester




On the verdict against Reid.

25/05/07
UK: The Comments The Guardian Declined to Print

The following is, word for word, what I provided on invitation from The Guardian's David Batty, and which he declined to use on the basis that they "...required a degree of knowledge of this case and the wider issues of GID care that the general reader lacks."

He clearly has a poor opinion of his readers.

- Christine

Quote:

"This case has served to emphasise the need for practitioners and other stakeholders in this field to refine approaches which enable patients to feel they are being supported and respected. This is vital if the pressures on doctors to respond to the very real distress and urgency of patients are to be alleviated, allowing more time for dialogue and reflection on all sides."

"It's difficult from a distance for outsiders to appreciate the care which Dr Reid felt he was giving, faced with patients already brutalised to the point where a further setback or rejection was likely to lead to no care at all and possible suicide from despair. That's the moral dilemma faced by most who practice in this field. What value is there in 'going by the book' if you lose the patient to
black market hormones and unregulated surgeries abroad, or them killing themselves?"

"It's a pity that the GMC was not more able to really hear more of that reality through the evidence it was constrained to consider, as I'm sure many trans people will see this judgement and feel that the real story -- the one they've lived through -- hasn't been understood. It's also a tragedy that the history of marginalisation in this field of care should have led to this point."

"The long duration of this case has delayed progress on dealing with these challenges but now the important thing is to focus more on work to ensure that trans people are cared for better throughout the National Health Service. People with gender issues need to be referred for assessment promptly, to a choice of provision near to where they live. Mental Health professionals need to look more carefully at the balance between sensible caution and creating unreasonable hoops that simply drive patients out of their care. If the NHS cares then these are the kinds of progress desperately needed to show it's not all just sanctimonious rhetoric. Never has there been an area of care where the words "Patient Centred" were so desperately in demand. Russell Reid's version of being patient centred brought about this case, but it was the lack of care elsewhere that brought the patients to his door."

-------------
These comments may of course be quoted elsewhere so long as they are fully intact or any edits are explicitly agreed with me.

Christine Burns


(FWIW, I don't agree that the rulebook can be tossed aside just because desperate patients might go to the black market, with the way the world is today, you could toss all medical rule and ethics books in the bin and do whatever you felt like all the time)
 
 
*
14:43 / 30.05.07
Tatchell knows sod all about the case - his comment on the Guardian's CIF site was a barely disguised rewrite of a transgender activist's comment, sent out via email a few days earlier.

David, I'm not sure if you intended this, but to me this suggests that transgender activists know sod-all about this case, which I find more than a little upsetting. Do you believe by and large that transgender activists who are vocal about these issues are ignorant of the facts behind the Reid case? Or perhaps the specific activist that Tatchell allegedly modeled his comment on? If so, could you elaborate?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:55 / 30.05.07
Not necessarily. Tatchell, knowing sod all about the case, could have reproduced the work of somebody who did know about the case, although of course in that case Tatchell's critique, if not his person, would be knowledgable.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:56 / 30.05.07
(slightly OT: “SEX CHANGE SURGERY IS UNNECESSARY MUTILATION”

A BBC Radio 4 'Hecklers' Debate at The Royal Society of Medicine

[Pre-booking for tickets (free) is essential. For more information visit www.rsm.ac.uk/hecklers or call + 44 (0)20 7290 2988]

Wednesday 18 July 2007. Doors open 5.30 pm, debate commences 6 pm

Venue: RSM, 1 Wimpole Street, London, W1G 0AE

The programme will be broadcast on Radio 4 on Wednesday 1 August at 8 pm

Julie Bindel, freelance journalist, will propose that “Sex change surgery is unnecessary mutilation”

She will be opposed by: Kevan Wylie, Clinical Director, Gender Dysphoria Service, Sheffield; Stephen Whittle, Professor of Law, Manchester Metropolitan University, Vice President of Press for Change, transgender lobby group; Michelle Bridgman, Psychotherapist and Project Manager ofThe Gender Trust; Peter Tatchell, sexual freedom and human rights campaigner
Chair: Evan Davis, BBC Economics Editor

Julie Bindel writes for the Guardian newspaper and Weekend magazine, and various other publications. She was a founder member of the feminist law reform campaign Justice for Women and was previously employed as a researcher into sexual violence at London Metropolitan University's Child and Woman Studies Unit.

Pre-booking for tickets (free) is essential.)
 
 
Ex
08:42 / 31.05.07
I'm conflicted about this - a chance to spread better informed less unpleasant opinions, but also a chance for Bindel to say some very ugly things. And why suck up airtime on this dispute when something less dodgy and adversarial on transgender issues could be put out there?

This isn't really the forum to rouse rabble, but if anyone's in the vicinity and might fancy a mass attendance/respectful picket, I've stuck a post on my blog. I'll bring it back to the Gathering if there's interest.
 
 
David Batty
20:21 / 04.06.07
Zippy, if someone so closely cribs an article off someone else I think it's fair to say their knowledge of the subject is at best superficial. And for the record I don't think that just because someone is a member of a certain social group that makes them by default an expert on that group, though they will of course have a special insight. A lot of trans activists bandy terms like queer around without any apparent understanding of the terminology. Some of us have studied gender & sexual theory/politics at university, rather than - say - engineering...

So I see someone's on the PFC mailing list.

I approached Christine Burns for a comment for a news story after returning from the hearing. She emailed me back saying she wasn't aware of what had happened, so I gave her a top line. She eventually mailed through the comment you see above which was hardly to the point of the story in hand. It might have been appropriate for a news analysis piece but as that wasn't what I was writing I requested someone more specific on the Reid verdict. She refused so I went to GIRES and the Gender Trust - the latter of which was quoted in the last update of the story of the site that afternoon.

Christine has sought to personalise this issue since the Guardian Weekend feature in 2004, which she took issue with. Since then she has put it about the trans community that I was put up to the story by Charing Cross and was acting as little more than their puppet. Which is utter bollocks, but allows her to distract attention from some of the big questions posed by the Reid case and its implications to the trans community and the professionals who serve it.

Not least of these is the question of whether there any future in a field of medicine with such a limited evidence base in an NHS increasingly only providing treatments which a) have a strong evidence base & b) have been judged to be cost effective. An unpublished Department of Health report I obtained under FOI - and a more recent Welsh assembly report - noted that systematic reviews had found little or no evidence that gender reassignment is effective - on either clinical or cost grounds. Most research was judged to be flawed, and benefits to patients where positive were viewed as minimal, with a good number continuing to suffer mental ill health and gender confusion post op.

Now I'm sure many of the people here can point to a good number of individuals who would seem to have benefitted enormously from gender reassaignment. The problem is the mass of evidence is merely ancedotal, which doesn't satisfy NHS commissioners juggling growing demands on an increasingly limited financial budget.

Several PCTs were already cutting back GID provision before the GMC inquiry into Reid. The disciplinary hearing - and related legal actions - only encouraged more trusts to follow suit, with several stating they'd withdraw all NHS funding from patients who saw him. Several senior NHS managers have told me the finding of serious professional misconduct against him will only strengthen the resolve of managers looking to reduce costs. So, somewhat ironically, it will be NHS GID services which will suffer most as a result of the Reid case. It would not surprise me if in a few years the private route is the only option left open to UK patients - if the multimillion action against Reid doesn't finish that off as well.

Is this fair? No I don't think so. I'm sure treatment does help some. The problem is though how much it helps and how many is so difficult to quantify and qualify. The antagonisms between doctors and the community go someway to explain the lack of follow up research that might have provided clinical evidence of the success of surgery, and it is probably too late to start such a study now. The NHS budget has reached its peak - investment will drop off steeply in the coming years while demand is still spiralling. Treatment costs are soaring with many new drugs for conditions which affect large proportions of the population, such as cancer, coming on the market. Many trusts have already chopped millions off budgets for mental health & other less 'sexy'/mainstream services - to fund drugs like Herceptin. Healthcare rationing is already here & will only increase over the next decade.

I suspect the trans community is going to find itself too small - and too divided - to win sufficient slice of the pie for GID care to continue even at its current (much criticised) level. There are no new treatments in the field, no major pharmaceutical companies prepared to take on the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NIce) in order to gain funding for patients, and little political or public support for a campaign to protect it. If NHS GID care is not yet a dead parrot, it's clingly perilously on its perch. The gender clinics are already competing for funds and patients, & I expect the spats to get more frequent.

The one small hope is that the new UK guidelines provide an impetus for national guidelines from Nice - which could do much to safeguard GID services from managers trying to balance their budgets. But I wouldn't hold your breath.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
06:55 / 05.06.07
A lot of trans activists bandy terms like queer around without any apparent understanding of the terminology. Some of us have studied gender & sexual theory/politics at university, rather than - say - engineering...

Riiiiight off-topic, but I take issue with your patronising tone, there, David. Given that Butler, our queer theory 'figurehead', made most of her arguments on the basis of theorising the lives of transpeople, it seems fair to say that no-one has a monopoly on what 'queer' means. And a lot of academics who bandy the term about don't appear to know shit about what it means, either. (Duh, I guess that could be because it has multiple meanings... Oh rly? Ya rly!)

If you want to blag on trans activists, go do it in your newspaper, not in our Head Shop. Please.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:35 / 05.06.07
Offtopic, but "some of us did gender at big school, you know - I think you who simply have it should stop being difficult" is top-quality comedy. David, my hat is off to you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:20 / 05.06.07
Offtopic again, but not loving the implication that having an academic background in a hard science makes one incapable of understanding gender issues.
 
 
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20:41 / 05.06.07
Thanks, David, for the details you offer about the effects of the verdict; there's definitely some protein there to discuss. Much more, I think, than in your personal differences with specific trans activists. I'd rather get into that right away than be sidelined by your proposal that trans people are not to be considered experts about being trans simply by virtue of being trans, but unfortunately I find it pretty salient.

It's been often reiterated here and elsewhere on the board that women are not necessarily experts on the oppression that faces women, and that no woman can speak for all women. Just because a woman says something is not sexist, doesn't necessarily mean it's not sexist. She may not have a solid grounding in oppression against women through which to interpret her experiences, or she may not be aware of her experiences of sexism as such for other reasons, and thus may not be as much of an expert in the matter as other women. The point is that her position should not be discounted because she is a woman, nor should she automatically be given more credence than other people because she is a woman and happens to agree with the speaker.

No blind person can speak for every blind person. Nor is there any group of people more expert on the experience of being blind than people who are blind. Doctors may be able to explain much more about what causes blindness than a blind person who does not have this background, but in understanding what accomodations are needed by blind people, a wise doctor asks and listens to her blind patients. A sighted person who has spent a few hours blindfolded still will not have direct experience of what it is like to live without sight for an indefinite period without the option of taking the blindfold off.

I would surmise that the experience of transgender people falls somewhere between. Part of our experiences are largely due to the bare fact of being transgender, which assuredly has some medical components and some identity components. Another part has to do with social aspects, in that we face real oppression that threatens us socially and physically. Incidentally, part of this oppression has to do with the assumption that being trans is a mental illness, and that our gender as we experience it is thus a product of delusion; it's this that I'm hearing echoes of in your post. Doctor knows best. Because this is a component of the oppression of trans people, it makes me angry to hear it even in people who have a real interest in protecting trans people's rights, or who have an outsider's concern for us and our well-being.

I do not have a commitment to the model that transition is the only way to treat trans people. I know of no other treatment that has even that much anecdotal evidence, little say the kind of evidence you (and I) would like to see for medical transition; if you know of one, I'd like to hear about it. I do have a commitment to the belief that it is no person's place to deny a trans person who makes an informed decision about transition the right to go ahead and do it. The important things that I would ask from doctors is to use their expertise to distinguish being transgender from organic mental illness appearing to be transness, to facilitate a decision-making process that is informed and grounded in the ultimate responsibility of the trans person, and to appropriately provide support systems for social stresses we will encounter before, during, and after transition. All this has to come from a position of awareness of trans people as people and not just sets of clinical signs and symptoms.

I don't know if this is possible under the NHS. I'm not a UK citizen and have never had to deal with the NHS. I don't know if it's possible in private practice either. But if it's not possible under either of these systems, what that tells me is not that what I want is unreasonable, but that the systems need reforming. Obviously, not today, right this minute, hold everything until these demands are met. There are people who need care in the meantime.

Now, I'd like to see a study that longitudinally tracks trans patients who choose not to transition, those who choose to transition and don't choose post-transition social support, and those who choose transition and also follow-up social support, to see which group reports the highest quality of life. This may also provide some more insight into who does better with medical transition and who does better without it, information that can be passed to trans people in a respectful way so that it can be useful to us. Because every trans person's experience is going to be different, evidence is largely going to be anecdotal. If it were a mental illness, rather than a psychosocial trait that expedience compels us to treat as mental illness because there are no systems set up to help healthy people live healthy lives, then we might have cure and remission rates--those at least would be quantifiable. You say it's too late to start such a study now; I disagree, but I also think we're unlikely to see one. If it happened, the results would then have to affect policy changes that will likely be put in place between now and then, which would be more work than if we had the results ready now to inform policy in the immediate term. A commitment to work on this research might help to slow or delay a reversal in policy that you seem to believe will necessarily occur because of this ruling; in the meantime, we need systems to support people who are transitioning and those who are not.

You're right that our community is fragmented; in part this is due to divisiveness from the medical community. From such classifications as that of "true transsexuals" and "secondary transsexuals" along lines of sexual preference, we've learned that we can get the care we need if we distinguish ourselves from those other people judged as undeserving of such care. It's a vicious, insidious lesson, and its echoes make it a real challenge to reach a consensus about what standards of care are needed for people identifying as trans-. This isn't, unfortunately, something either you or the NHS can help us with, by ripping into some segment of the trans activist community or by dismissing trans activists as a whole, or even by illuminating the deficiencies in the current evidence base. That has to be a reform movement within the community--a community that is fighting over where its boundaries are, and not building good bridges with groups that can help us. We've been, justifiably, suspicious of non-trans people trying to "help" and "inform" us while they decided for us what our lives would be like, a situation that any reasonable person is likely to respond to in unreasonable ways.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:15 / 18.07.07
Bumping this in anticipation of a bigger post either this evening or in the next few days about the Hecklers debate earlier today, I knew a few people went along, was I the only one who actually went in? (Also checking that this is the most appropriate thread, as it started due to La Bindel?)
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:12 / 19.07.07
I totally reckno we could do with starting a new thread for the Hecklers session. I'm interested in what happened -- especially how the interventions various people have made with leaflets etc, and I'd like to see it discussed as a separate thread. ROFL, how does that sound?
 
 
Ex
10:47 / 19.07.07
I could start one in Switchboard, if that's good - it would take me an hour or so.
 
 
Ex
10:48 / 19.07.07
Or maybe here in Headshop - I feel that it could involve things like discussions of public service broadcasting and UK clinic policy which might fit better there than here.
 
 
Ex
12:10 / 19.07.07
Did it - new thread over in Switchboard, a little rambling, but keen for contribution and direction.
 
 
David Batty
16:52 / 10.08.07
Live things in you - I wouldn't say that it is. But given the choice between two spokespeople on a topic, I'd choose the most well informed, most qualified, etc, of the pair & their identity would be part of that equation. (And not arsing around when they know I'm on a deadline.) In this instance, I went to two other trans groups - if it was the case I didn't think trans voices were worth hearing (which it isn't), I wouldn't have bothered.

Haus, whatever! - The point I'm making is that if you set yourself up as a spokesperson on gender you might want to brush up on the theory a little. In the context of this debate, I would not (unlike, I suspect, Julie Bindel) put myself forward as an expert. However, I believe, based on the extensive research I've done, I have an informed opinion on the subject - albeit one I recognise not everyone will share or appreciate!

Zippy, I think the points you make are interesting - but so too is your question as to whether that approach would work in the NHS. The NHS is strapped for cash - and will only become moreso in the future. Rationing of care is the big issue ministers do not want to confront because it is so unpopular. Today, I've been covering the verdict of the legal challenge against's Nice's guidance to deny Alzheimer's drugs to patients in the early stages of the disease, & there have been similar arguments over several cancer drugs in recent months.

There's been a move towards providing evidence based medicine in the NHS. Not least because it provides protection from legal action the health service can ill afford. This is the big problem now facing gender dysphoria services over here - they can''t point to robust clinical evidence when a primary care trust objects to funding treatment. This is why PCTs (which commission and provide local health services in England) have been able to cut back services. Health managers are also aware that reports by the Department of Health and the Welsh Assembly have concluded there is a lack of evidence that treatment is effective, & no research on long-term outcomes.

Trans camapigners have a good point that - given the relatively tiny numbers of patients seeking treatment - cutting GRS is hardly going to make a big dent in an NHS trust's deficits. Unfortunately, it's the evidence issue on which these decisions are justified - not overall numbers/costs.

And while Alzheimer's and cancer patients have big charities, loads of MPs, and huge pharmaceutical companies behind them, the pro-GRS lobby does not punch much - if any - weight.

So, if the community wants to protect the treatment it regards as essential, and if doctors in the field want to keep their jobs, then they'd best off get their heads together and organise some robust research. Even the annoucement of such research would be helpful for patients seeking to challenge refusal of funding. But the longer there is no research, the louder voices of opposition within NHS management will grow.

With regards to the treatment options. While I would not doubt that GRS is beneficial to the majority of those who seek it (at least in the short-term), perhaps it is time to re-evaluate psychological alternatives for some on the ('lower' end of the) TG/TS spectrum. It may well be the case that some of the 'regrettors' would have been better off living in their desired gender or in an alternative gender variant state without full surgery. Claudia indicatd to me that she thought she would have been better off not having genital surgery, for example. Transition & surgery have become synonymous, perhaps doctors and the community should express that this need not be the case?

Is there anything to be gained by the community & its doctors re-evaluating what transition is about. There is an argument that rather than pushing (all) patients from one gender to another, (some) should be enabled to live as a third gender. The case against this being that society will not accept a 'transgender'. Does anyone think there is anything to be said for the current state of affairs being a compromise to (Western) society's gender norms rather than the best solution to gender varient people's gender experience/expression? Rather than withdrawing the only available option, should more options be on the table?

Anyway, enough for now - have to go an update a story.
 
 
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00:34 / 22.08.07
Time constraint requires me to be more concise and thus perhaps less tactful than I might perhaps otherwise be, but here goes: Of course I think more options should be on the table. I think there's more flexibility in the system I'm working with to use those options, compared to how you're describing the NHS system. Those options didn't come about because people attacked the usefulness of gender transition, but because they expanded the definition of it. Attacking the idea that gender transition is a useful model, it seems to me, would tend to limit options rather than expand them. When the general public's conception of the transgender dilemma is two-pronged thusly: either "gender transition" as narrowly defined as an off-the-shelf Sex Change Operation, or living with That Gender What God and the Obstetrician Gave You, then attacking "gender transition" as narrowly defined etc. looks an awful lot like proving that living with That Gender What God etc. is the only right answer. You can't figure out which of all the millions of possible solutions work best for which cohorts if you're only testing two possible solutions and the outcomes are only success or failure.
 
  

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