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Concerns regarding the lack of effectiveness of gender reassignment

 
  

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pointless and uncalled for
12:34 / 30.07.04
Looking at the implications of this article from the Guardian.

The most basic message that is being conveyed here is that the research into the effects and effectiveness of gender reassignment surgery has failed to properly and consistently form a reliable medical and psychological opinion on gender reassignment treatment.

Furthermore it implies that the medical community related to this field may well be blundering around in the dark in a well meaning drive to try to satisfy a user group that is seeking an issue resolution that they perceive as being alternative to their current or previous state.

If the study is accurate and gender reassignment treatement and support is not nessecarily effective, or indeed possibly inappropriate, should it be something that is carried out?

The response of the medical community is, in general, yes, because of the tangible and identifiable effects of non-treatment of any condition leading to gender reassignment treatment. However, if the effects of the treatment are unclear and the treatment itself is called into question, it seems appropriate that a full and broad investigation should be initiated. In addition to this a parallel investigation into alternate responses should be carried out, something that seems to be lacking.

NB. Avoiding the economic factor as irrelevant.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:03 / 30.07.04
I think we need Ganesh on this one - he's talked about some similar stuff recently here.

I was interested in this opening sentence from the Guardian article (my emphasis added in italics):

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation.

I wondered to what extent the Guardian article is relying on a narrative of gender reassignment where 'The Operation' (presumably the surgical construction of the appropriate genitalia) is supposed to provide a happy ending, and to what extent this is affecting the framework and the findings of research. For example, I believe that there isn't a single operation to construct a vagina, but a series of operations with various physical exercises that the transwoman has to do in between them (that is, it's a process, not a moment of miraculous transformation), and the impression I've got from my (admittedly vague, scatty and patchy) engagement with the subject is that many transmen (the majority?) don't have genital surgery at all. So - I suppose my point is that if you cast into doubt the idea that the operation is a cut-off point, an end to a finite process of gender reassignment, then maybe the whole life narrative of the transperson comes into play in a different way? (That is, if the event of the operation stops being such a definitive Before and After, and gender reassignment is seen as a process that is an organic part of a life narrative, then it's less surprising that someone who was fucked up 'before' is still fucked up 'after'.)

I'm not sure whether it's valid to see gender reassignment in that way, or whether, even if you did, it would affect the findings in any meaningful way, of course: if the figures in the Guardian article are right, then one in five trans people regrets having their gender reassigned regardless of the place the operation plays in their own version of their life narrative. On the other hand, probably more than one in five people regrets having got married, and the solution has usually been to make divorce easier rather than to make marriage harder. But then you don't have to have surgery to get married.

Okay, rambling. If anyone can find a semblance of order in all that, thank you very much. (I really shouldn't post while I'm meant to be writing. My mind is like a flock of birds.)
 
 
Lord Morgue
13:23 / 30.07.04
Eh, no wuckas, Deev, you still make more sense than the Guardian.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:30 / 30.07.04
Woohoo! I thought The Guardian had given up on it's anti-transsexuals and transsexualism stance, but no, they're still out to put the boot in. Sorry, I'm going to hold off on being useful and indeed relevent until I've had a chance to see what they're reporting tomorrow, this spoiler report is too vague, things like Dr Hyde said: "The bottom line is that although it's clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly.", I'd be curious about research methodology to see whether they're taking into account the often ngeative reception post-ops get in 'the real world' if they don't look like Miriam.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:53 / 30.07.04
I'm going home in a few minutes, so I've no time to answer this one properly. But a couple of comments:

- For anyone who's forced to undergo treatment on the NHS, from what I gather about the service (James Bellringer, quoted in the above article, aside), there's little surprise if they end up traumatised and in a complete mess. Once someone "realises" they're transsexual (there's often a specific "OhmyGod" turning point, which I've seen described as seeming like sudden onset of obsessive madness), it's horrendously traumatic. Now, a service which makes people live a "real life test" for a year before they're even prescribed any hormones and in many cases have a chance of passing (plus the fact that, apparently, its far from unknown for them to turn people away if they're particularly unpassable)? Does anyone have any idea what that year'd be like? Add to that such sound psychiatric diagnostic tests as, "So you're female? Then why don't you wear frumpy Laura Ashley dresses?" and it's no wonder lots of people want to commit suicide by the end of it all.

- The 20% suicide rate for untreated patients statistic is, as far as I'm aware, massively underestimated.

No time now, but hopefully more insightful analysis and more anecdotal comments later...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:22 / 31.07.04
Full article here.

Having a brief read, it doesn't seem to be Bindelltastic, but in a paper that has never printed a transfriendly article in the same time as attacks by Burchill, Bindel and Theobold it does make me dubious. More when I've had a chance to read it all properly.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:39 / 31.07.04
Well, the author doesn't make it clear that the people complaining that SRS was wrong for them all went through it over a decade ago at the least, I presume Ganesh could tell us that there have been a lot of changes to treatment before that.

However, if the state of research on follow-up care of transsexuals is accurately reported in the Guardian article, that's shockingly bad. IANA psychiatrist, but Patricia Dainton's 'problems' with her gender, lacking back-up from the process that brought her to SRS, led on to her subsequent problems. In her case however, I don't see that of herself she did have any problems with her SRS, it was rather that she then chose to join an evangelical church that brainwashed her into believing what she'd done was wrong. Once she left, she seems to have reverted to a belief in being a woman, or closes to woman on a sliding scale than the man she started out wit or the church tried to make her believe she was.

I think the key point in the article comes from this paragraph:

Although she had an overwhelming desire to change gender from early childhood, [Rachel] Padman believes the main reason for her post-op success is that her identity is not solely based on her being transsexual. She was working on her doctorate while undergoing gender reassignment. She saw genital surgery as just a step towards leading the life she wanted, rather than her ultimate goal. She says: "I don't think that surgery is what created me. I suppose it did make me feel more female because I wasn't loaded up with two competing sets of hormones any more. But being an astronomer and physicist is my prime identity. I do get the impression that some people lose sight of the rest of their life."

I thought I was gender dysphoric as a teenager, when I realised I was using a desire for a sex-change as a means to try and escape other shit in my life it largely disappeared and since then I've largely managed to deal with my problems. The desire is still there but sublimated and not one that guides me in my life choices. Now whether the cases of the other women mentioned in this report are in any way similar is something we'll never know.
 
 
*
15:36 / 31.07.04
For example, in a five-year study of 727 post-operative transsexuals published last year, 495 people dropped out for unknown reasons. Dr Hyde said the high drop out rate could reflect high levels of dissatisfaction or even suicide among post-operative transsexuals. He called for the causes of their deaths to be tracked to provide more evidence.

Or it could be because many participants chose to "go stealth" or otherwise felt uncomfortable continuing to answer intrusive questions about their feelings about their genitals. It could even be a reflection of high levels of satisfaction, so that patients feel their continued participation is unnecessary or perhaps even getting in the way of their greatly improved lives.

What's interesting to me is that this review was "conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend", an idea suggested to them after they apparently talked to some vague somebody or somebodies who indicated that they might know someone or someones who weren't happy after their surgery or surgeries. In other words they hired researchers to find what they wanted to find.

On the other hand this research does uncover a rather important point-- surgery in and of itself is not always or even often sufficient to make people happy. Surprise. I have yet to see an article entitled "Breast Augmentation Surgery Not Effective, Say Researchers: Studies show one-fifth of women who have had breast implants are still unhappy with their bodies."

No doubt more will argue on the basis of this research that trans people should be denied surgery as opposed to the more sensible suggestion that there should be better standards for psychological care for after surgery/transition.

No investigation was evidently done into the circumstances of the "unsuccessful" trans people's lives, including whether they faced a high degree of social persecution, had bad surgery results, were able to find a job, were "out" or "stealth" or somewhere in between, were in a relationship, had related body image issues which were not addressed, or had other unrelated mental health concerns. Nor does the Guardian appear to be aware of the differences between transmen and transwomen, and I speculate that they are using the word "transsexual" sometimes as shorthand for male-to-female transsexual, sometimes to include female-to-male transsexual without regard to any differences in experience, and not distinguishing between the two usages.

Do I really need to point out anything else? Like the "up to a fifth" that the unspecified "research from the US and Holland" supplies includes zero and indeed every fraction "up to" a fifth? That 80% success rate for a specific treatment of any other otherwise incurable condition would be seen as nothing short of miraculous? that it might be a good idea to distinguish between dissatisfaction with the particular results of a particular surgery and regret about the entire transition itself? That viewing "the operation" as the alpha and omega of gender transition, particularly implicitly and uncritically, is at best an oversimplification and worse leads to grave misunderstanding of the process of gender transition?

Nah. Probably not.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
19:28 / 31.07.04
the impression I've got from my (admittedly vague, scatty and patchy) engagement with the subject is that many transmen (the majority?) don't have genital surgery at all.

*Nods*... most. I'm not entirely sure if this is due to less widespread desire for SRS, or largely because the cost is prohibitive - around £30,000, the last I checked. There may be a culture difference between transmen and transwomen, or perhaps different reasons on the whole for transitioning - I'm not sure how true it is, but I believe someone here suggested that transmen are likely to transition for more social reasons, and transwomen for more personal reasons. However, for many natal men their genitalia is considered a large part of their masculinity, or can offer more confidence in it, and a lot of MtFs have problems scraping together the £8,000 or so for SRS (particularly as it's notoriously difficult to find a job), so £30,000 may be a price not accessible to so many.

Now, a service which makes people live a "real life test" for a year before they're even prescribed any hormones

This is inaccurate. Standard practice at the Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic - and, as far as I'm aware, the more peripheral NHS ones - is for an individual in whom hormones are reckoned to be beneficial to have to live full time in the chosen gender role for around three months before prescription of oestrogens or testosterone.


Well, I'm not sure if they've changed their practices very recently, but someone I kind-of know and several transpeople I've come across on a message board state that Charing Cross would not give hormones for at least a year. Often followed by, "And that's for those who're lucky".

... Anyway, more on that. The two-year-plus wait on the NHS before being seen or given any help at all I'd think to be easily enough time for many people to develop some pretty serious "issues". But being forced to go through a year (or even three months) of real life test before being given hormones, is enough to make plenty of people commit suicide in itself; anyone physically male far out of their teenage years isn't likely to be able to walk in the street dressed as a woman without *every* single person stopping and staring. A year of that could only be unbearably stressful.

...try to avoid being overly dismissive of the psychiatric role(s) here

I really wasn't being dismissive of psychiatrists or the psychiatric role in general, but specifically the majority of the staff at Charing Cross, who from pretty much all the anecdotes I've heard, are absolutely hellish.

What's interesting to me is that this review was "conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend", an idea suggested to them after they apparently talked to some vague somebody or somebodies who indicated that they might know someone or someones who weren't happy after their surgery or surgeries. In other words they hired researchers to find what they wanted to find.

The above article could be worse (though the message throughout and particularly emphasised at the end of, "Oh, you can't expect to be a *real* woman is a bit... argh), but as Our Lady says, it's far from rectifying a rather nasty record of transphobia. Their approach, I think, is undoubtedly intentionally sensationalist; at the beginning of the year, when Russell Reid was first challenged by the Charing Cross doctors, the journalist writing that article appeared on the Nuttycats UK TS forum with an opening line basically saying, "So: does anyone here have any horrendous stories of regret?", which doesn't seem like the most balanced angle to start from.

I'm rather disturbed, particularly in light of the case of Painton in that article, by the comment from the "how-could-you-mess-with-the-wonderful-body-GOD-has-given-you" evangelist near the end: I've heard a few stories of people trying to find a church and being preached against or turned away, and given that the nature of religion means that many people's lives are ruled by it, I'd expect there to be quite a few people pretty awfully ****ed-up by the conflict between the desire not to go to hell/please baby Jesus and wanting to actually live their life in the right body.

On the other hand this research does uncover a rather important point-- surgery in and of itself is not always or even often sufficient to make people happy. Surprise. I have yet to see an article entitled "Breast Augmentation Surgery Not Effective, Say Researchers: Studies show one-fifth of women who have had breast implants are still unhappy with their bodies."

No doubt more will argue on the basis of this research that trans people should be denied surgery as opposed to the more sensible suggestion that there should be better standards for psychological care for after surgery/transition.


Although most transmen tend to be able to pass and therefore be accepted by society, and I think reach a level physically which would fall pretty well within their range of "male body they'd be happy with", with hormones alone in a not particularly excessive amount of time, this isn't the case with most transwomen. While it's nice to now be able to look down when going to the toilet and be physically closer to my girlfriend without feeling uncomfortable, this is secondary to the wonderfulness of being able to go outside and not think that everyone's looking and thinking, "Is that...?". Being barely beyond the age of little girl, I'm fairly lucky (and even with being young, my shoulders and a couple of small things about my face still cause me a little mental discomfort, and I still pick my clothes fairly carefully), but for the majority of transwomen, there's plenty left to do after SRS. For many, the trauma of being stared at a fair amount and being reacted to badly doesn't go away, and plenty spend their entire life scraping together their money for more and more operations to reduce the number of people who say, "Sir", in shops and make them feel comfortable when they look in the mirror.

... And finally for now: I assume my parents will be reading every single article written in the Guardian on the issue. Their approach really doesn't help. Anyone want to judge what an average person with no previous knowledge would think about transsexualism just from reading the articles that have been published in the Guardian?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
19:30 / 31.07.04
... On a vaguely-related positive note: the Gender Recognition Bill is now the Gender Recognition Act 2004. Hurrah!
 
 
Pingle!Pop
23:12 / 31.07.04
A bit late for a proper reply, but -

Gender identity clinics are an extremely underfunded tertiary service, and do have long waiting lists; this is a bureaucratic delay rather than a policy decision -and no-one's especially happy with it.

I know - that wasn't a criticism of the way the NHS deal with things, but a comment on the effect it's likely to have on those who actually have to wait so long.

Problem is, there's often an expectation that hormones - and particularly surgery - will drastically alter this situation. Hormones produce some changes, but won't make 'passing' - for anyone "physically male far out of their teenage years" - a done deal in any sense. Particularly where surgery's concerned, if one cannot cope with the "stopping and staring" beforehand, one won't cope with it afterward.

Again, I know. I personally think that the insistence on a real-life test pre-hormones at all isn't exactly the best approach anyway; while it's obviously necessary before referral for surgery, anything up to six months' worth of hormones is reversible, and I'd say that seeing how a patient responds to changes in their body and hormone levels is a more accurate and more humane diagnostic practice than seeing how well they can handle being shouted at all day in the street and perhaps losing their job (and if not, almost certainly facing discrimination and possibly abuse at w*rk) as, as far as anyone who looks at them is concerned, "a bloke in a dress". Basically, the feminising effect of hormones provides a certain amount of buffering effect against people's ractions; many people are unable to face starting the real-life test in all aspects of their life without at least some perceived improvement beforehand; I've seen a few people state that they plan to go full-time once they've finished electrolysis. If I'd needed electrolysis before I started transition I probably would barely have left the house until I'd had it.

Do you actually know the majority of the staff at Charing Cross? Is it possible that those individuals who choose to post online are, in part, a self-selecting population?

In the absence of first-hand experience, it's wise to treat some of these anecdotes with a pinch of salt...


Wellll, while it's entirely anecdotal, it's not been in any biased situation - basically, on the aforementioned board, in a "what was your transition like" context, and certainly with no reason for those with negative experiences to speak out more than anyone else. I've heard generally good things about James Bellringer, but otherwise most people with any experience with Charing Cross seem to have some pretty horrendous stories about treatment there. The one thing which is repeated by pretty much everyone I've come across is: if you don't have the money to go private, be prepared to go through hell.
 
 
*
01:52 / 01.08.04
Not being from your country I don't know anything about Charing Cross and don't pretend to. And if it makes any difference, 'Nesh, I have no problem with the "gatekeepers", so much as concerns about the effects of this and other such sensationalist articles on the minds of the half-informed public, some of whom are already pushing elected and unelected lawmakers to place further restrictions on the availability of surgery, based on precisely the lack of evidence you cite.

I suppose the question is, in the absence of precise statistics which are generally agreed to be accurate, is it better to further restrict the availability of surgical intervention, knowing that this could cause additional distress to many people whose lives are hard enough already, or to leave things as they are, knowing that a certain amount of people who do go through the process and get surgery may regret that decision in the future? Should any changes be made before this information is obtained? And how do we run damage control on media sensationalism which could otherwise further convince a poorly-informed public that they have the responsibility to agitate for legislation which seeks to restrict the right of other people to make their own decisions with the help of a qualified therapeutic team?

I really find your responses helpful, by the way, Ganesh.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
17:20 / 01.08.04
Okay, another unsatisfactorily reactive post. With me fresh out of Duckie and somewhat pissed. I'm quite good at posting pissed, though...

I'm sorry; the latter post was late at night and I was tired. Please, though, I'd appreciate your not second-guessing the reasons for my post - my intentions were only to clarify further what I'd already said, and I don't see my response to be any more reactive than your immediate assumption after my first post that I was attacking the psychiatric profession as a whole.

And I maintain that, if we're claiming six months of oestrogens is 'reversible', it's also unlikely to bring about changes sufficiently drastic to mean that, if one is "shouted at all day in the street", losing their job, etc. (and, in my experience, this is not the average experience of social gender transition), then they're not gonna attract the same negative attention on hormones. If they can't effect any sort of successful social transition without hormones, then they're unlikely to do spectacularly well with: six months' worth doesn't make that much difference in terms of buffering peoples' reactions. I think that aspect tends to be overstated by those who're (understandably) anxious about social transition.

Indeed, six months isn't that long. However, my two main points are centred around:

- Even though the majority of transwomen are likely to need fairly long-term use of hormones to produce enough effect to "pass" nearly all of the time, the physical effect from shorter-term use is still, for many, enough to have a significant psychological effect; My comment was not "buffering people's reactions", but "buffering against people's actions.

- I consider the use of hormones to generally be a more humane and effective diagnostic tool; indeed, I think judging by the letters of support from several Charing Cross doctors to Russell Reid before his initial hearing before the GMC, this isn't a particularly controversial opinion. Also, given the fact that many transwomen would much rather reach a certain level of femininity before starting "full-time" socially in all aspects of their life, I believe they should be allowed to do so, even if it does mean being on hormones for a fairly long time beforehand. In particular, removal of facial hair is a point many wish to reach before going out in the street in their preferred clothes, and without anti-androgens, electrolysis is not particularly useful, as it tends to just grow back after a while.

What part, if any, of the above do you personally disagree with? What is your preferred course of treatment?

Except that we've already discussed the 'going stealth' phenomenon - and it's therefore perfectly reasonable to suppose that those who've had a completely positive, straightforward journey through Charing Cross (or any other gender clinic) are choosing not to post about it online.

Like I say, there's a self-selection bias.


Except that people were, on the whole, giving much more mixed opinions of their own GPs' helpfulness, and were on the whole fairly positive about their experiences with the private sector - often from people with experience with both. I don't see why people would be positive about one and not the other unless, in general, people's experiences with one were much more positive than with the other. There's no reason why only those with positive private experiences or negative Charing Cross experiences would post. And, really, some of the incidences of obnoxiousness and insensitivity (one particular name being mentioned rather a lot, but I'll not mention who unless you particularly want me to) mentioned would be extremely shocking and unprofessional even if they only happened to a minority of patients.

James Bellringer's one of the guys who carries out the surgery - which, as we've agreed, tends to be characterised as a sort of epiphany. It's perhaps not that surprising that he's viewed in a positive light - in contrast to the bean-counting 'gatekeepers'.

That's true - in general people are more likely to have particular problems with certain psychiatrists than certain surgeon's. But I gather that, compared with other UK surgeons, James Bellringer's work is considered particularly good.

I've no idea how such "damage control" might be arranged. In the case of the Guardian article, I actually don't think it can be dismissed as media sensationalism (and apologies if you're not referring to it); I think it does a good job of covering many of the disparate angles, and conveying a broad sense of the ethical issues involved.

I'm not sure about the reasons for this particular article, but again - for the previous article written by the same person, he did appear on a TS board simply asking for negative experiences, which to me certainly seems like aiming for a sensationalist angle. And, given the lack of articles from the Guardian which might, say, help the public to understand the transsexual condition better, I don't consider it particularly acceptable that they keep churning out articles with at best a slightly negative slant.
 
 
Ganesh
20:01 / 01.08.04
I'm sorry; the latter post was late at night and I was tired. Please, though, I'd appreciate your not second-guessing the reasons for my post - my intentions were only to clarify further what I'd already said, and I don't see my response to be any more reactive than your immediate assumption after my first post that I was attacking the psychiatric profession as a whole.

Let me clarify: I was apologising in advance for my own post being unsatisfactorily reactive; I feel I've been answering stuff in this thread, rather than contributing anything properly thought-through or proactive/structured. I wasn't "second-guessing" you at all.

More later.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
21:29 / 01.08.04
Oops, sorry. Thank you for clarifying that.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:01 / 02.08.04
Unfortunately due to the timing of the article and my posting this thread has run beyond my

ability to comment. It is very educational though and I'm quite interested to hear from a

good mix of views.

I will however respond to this.

Surprise. I have yet to see an article entitled "Breast Augmentation Surgery Not

Effective


I'm also suprised that you haven't. In today's image concious society the media just loves to tell how we fuck up and it isn't just the "OMG she wore what to the red carpet" columns. There have been a number of articles about women saying that their life isn't fulfulling after getting breast enhancement and then there are those that try to resolve the issue by pursuing more cosmetic surgery. Even the red tops haven't missed this little gravy train, although it's mainly speculative. Need I mention the well reported breast reduction of Pamela Anderson? She was quoted as saying she thought that going that one enlargement extra was a mistake and had chosen a bad time to do it. She subsequently went back up again and even now is unsure about what size her breasts should be but will probably wait until later on in life to decide what to do (economics being what they are).

One of the most poignant stories, and possibly relevant to this thread, is one that I recall of a sixteen year old who got implants under the understanding that she was unlikely to grow much more until childbirth. She was subsequently the victim of taunting and bullying amongst her peers and decided to get the operation reversed. However, the medical opinion was that it would be better to wait as she had started to grow naturally and the surgeons didn't want to risk damage to the breasts that could lead to further problems.

Sorry I don't have any references to link to but I'm doing this from recollection and googling takes a lot of time for specific items like this. Suffice to say some people have pinned their hopes on cosmetic surgery and it has failed to live up to the Hollywood ideal, admittedly the complex issue of passing isn't really present.
 
 
*
16:19 / 02.08.04
and, myself, I favour a two-year Real Life Test (more likely to root out those who're unable to sustain a viable persona in their chosen gender-role). That's pretty much my opinion, though

'Nesh, you've probably addressed this in another thread at some earlier point, but if so I'm pretty sure I've missed it. What is your opinion, then, on people who identify as a member of "the opposite gender" (excuse me while I get lazy with terminology) but who don't particularly fit the established social role of the opposite gender any better than they fit the social role assigned to them currently? For instance, FTMs who crossdress after transition, people who have a fluid experience of their gender identity, people who think of themselves as "third gender" etc? In other words, what do you mean by "sustain a viable persona"? I'm probably just showing off my ignorance here. And I'm hijacking the thread for very selfish reasons, so I'll get back to the topic at hand, now.

I'm not saying there's no validity to the Guardian article or their research, just that I find their tone sensationalist. For instance, if my intention were to re-examine the utility and necessity of GRS, I would not make the headline read "Sex reassignment surgery not effective, say researchers" because that makes it seem like a solid conclusion, when I don't think any expert cited in the article was able to state that definitely, and several researchers cited in the article (albeit not the ones involved in the Guardian study) said exactly the opposite. And as Pingles notes there does seem to be a trend of the Guardian running stories with an anti-trans slant, with a lack of balancing stories from the other perspective.

And SeldomKiller-- I see a major difference between media conceptions of breast enhancement surgeries and GRS, which is that people who seek GRS are widely considered to be mentally ill in some way, and their decisions should be controlled by a team of psychologists, whereas women who seek breast implants are sometimes considered to be merely vain, but no one has argued successfully for taking the decision to seek such an operation out of the hands of an adult woman. I wanted to outline that difference in a slightly hyperbolic way in my post. I am sure many people do regret their breast implants and some articles have been written on the subject, but newspapers have shown an astonishing disinclination to commission research designed to a) disprove their utility and b) agitate for people to be prevented doing it, which is what The Paranoid thinks is going on in this Guardian piece.

And on an even pettier note, I'm still kind of bothered by the title of this thread. The article only raised issues about surgery, right? I didn't actually read anything in there about hormones or social transition? "going transexual", then, is not what's at issue here. It's surgery, which is only one part of gender transition. I'm still at a loss to understand the terminology "going transexual".
 
 
Pingle!Pop
07:07 / 03.08.04
I'm not saying there's no validity to the Guardian article or their research, just that I find their tone sensationalist.

I think a good way of getting a bit of perspective on the Guardian's reporting is to use the old "What if...?" method. For example, an article stressing the experiences of a few people who regret coming out as gay or going out with someone of the same gender, with a headline implying that doing so is wrong and a gay person at the end quoted as saying that their sexuality could never, really, be truly valid, would seem rather dodgy, but perhaps justifiable if there was some balance. However, that same article following a string of pieces only highlighting the "bad" side of being gay and even a couple of columns saying things like, "Why on earth are these gay people claiming they should be treated fairly and equally?" (and I use that statement only because I can't think of anything that could quite match up to the awfulness of Bindel's, "If I stick a hosepipe down my trousers it doesn't make me a man," ranting), and I'd consider the Guardian to be on a pretty equal footing with the Daily Mail.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
07:18 / 03.08.04
My apologies, I responded to that part because I felt it deserved a proper response and while I was at it I thought that I would highlight a few similarities. In my own way I did make an acknowledgement of the critical differences but I guess I wasn't clear enough. BTW I think you may find that the decision to have breast implants has been taken out of the hands of an adult woman before. (again I';m not going to hunt references but there were affecting psychological factors for doing this).

As for the title, I'm glad in a way that it bothers you. I was particularly wary of titling a thread with either a) repetition of the article title or b) relative terminology that might disuade less associated persons from either contributing or reading (I myself have been daunted by some headshop titles). If I ruffle a few feathers in the mean time then fucking brilliant, in my experience of the lith feathers ruffled in the right direction mean a nice long informative thread.

I'd appreciate any further discussion of breast enhancement or thread titling in seperate threads to avoid unnessecary rottage. "Similarities" is emboldened because I feel oddly compelled to reiterate that I'm implying a rather loose relationship, not saying it's in any way exactly the same.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
06:26 / 05.08.04
I'm arriving late as usual to this thread. I find the article very interesting and not quite as transphobic as it could have been. I think it's probably inspired by some similar, recent cases of GRS reversal (and doctors/shrninks being sued) in Australia. Alan Finch lives in Melbourne and took the gender clinic here to court for misdiagnosis. He didn't win.

Obviously (given I'm about to have surgery, within the year) I don't think the sudden 'surge' of people regretting their decisions means GRS should be stopped. Deva, Ganesh, Flowers and Pingles have all offered really perceptive ideas about what is happening in the article. For me, that people are 'coming out' as ex-trannies reveals how much needs to change about treatment of transpeople. In my experience, gender clinic staff often believe TS is biological -- therefore they assume that one's feelings about wanting to change gender are never wrapped up with any other issue. A worse problem is the fact that it's completely impossible to bring up 'other life issues' with psychiatrists who are assessing you as a candidate for SRS. If people don't have a safe space in which to talk through everything that is happening in their lives, of course they're going to make bad decisions. For me, this would mean separating out 'counselling' from 'assessment' explicitly. Interestingly, this is exactly what I've done -- I have a counsellor who has little contact with the gender clinic staff -- and I've worked out heaps about myself that I wouldn't have over the two years since I began transition.

My experience of people who want to change back after GRS is either that they've become Christian fundamentalists, or that they find transition and life afterwards so difficult that they begin to blame the doctors for not seeing that they 'weren't trans'. Perhaps this happens especially with transwomen, because there you're not only dealing with the passing issue, but the loss of privilege and power that comes with passing as male to begin with.

Anyhow, surgery isn't the be all and end all of any person's transition, even if it does make some things far simpler. Transition is a huge thing -- perhaps people don't realise how traumatic it can be. For all that, though, I find it to be absolutely worth the 'trouble'.

Lastly, I wanted to add, in reply to Angelique's note that the cost for ftm genital surgery is prohibitive, which may explain why most don't do it -- yes, penis construction is expensive, but the success rate is very low. Even if you do end up with a 'functioning phallus', the definition of 'functioning' often doesn't include sexual sensation or erection without a prosthesis. Or, you might have some sensation but you can't piss out if it. Or, it works for a while and then falls apart. Most ftm's I don't know aren't willing to make that call. Plus, testosterone makes a pretty good micropenis. Many ftms who don't have genital surgery regard themselves as having a cock -- and more power to 'em...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:11 / 12.08.04
Oh look, the author of the first piece, David Batty, has written another article for the Guardian about another person who regrets their sex change, Trapped in gender limbo.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:17 / 12.08.04
Well, I'd like a few more details about what happened to hir, obviously you know more about these things than me, but both reports seem to give the impression that SRS is something one can rather do on a whim, no mention of the Real Life Test. Maybe it's my Guardian-prejudice, maybe I shouldn't read these articles as implying that GRS is all about bad doctors tricking poor innocent depressed people into thinking they've got something else wrong with them. Googling the author does seem to suggest a pattern of writing regularly critical reports on health and mental health issues for The Guardian.
 
 
*
17:03 / 20.08.04
Cross-dressing after social transition? It'd depend on context, obviously...

Seems to be something to be done for fun at parties. Obviously some born male (or male-assigned-at-birth) people dress in female clothes some of the time but have no desire to actually be female; these transmen assert that they feel essentially the same. Some have said that while they identify as male, they feel that their "female past" is important to them, and that it is healthy to occasionally acknowledge that. Others say "nostalgia". Me, I feel most comfortable in a skirt when I feel most "guy", but that's probably due to being contaminated by the gothic aesthetic (sorry about that; I'll try not to rub off on anyone here).

I am not thinking about "fitting the social role" as necessarily positively correlated with "happiness"; I'm thinking about it more in terms of lack of censure from mainstream society. Social acceptance can certainly have much to do with happiness-- but in my experience, from the outside, contentedly "not fitting in" sometimes looks like misery. Perhaps only amateurs and poorly-trained high school guidance counselors make that mistake, but I would be wary of the assertion that someone cannot be happy physically and socially transitioning to a desired gender just because they may face censure for not seeming to fit that role ideally. I worry about equating gender role with gender identity, in essence.

Ganesh:
I should emphasize that everything you have said thus far seems reasonable to me. I hope this post doesn't read as a criticism of your theory and practice, or even the NHS system which I know nothing about. I'm simply trying to clarify my own ideas about the psychosocial implications of gender transition.

That said, let us say someone persistently identifies with some third gender category, some blend of male and female characteristics, or lack of gendered traits altogether. Let importance of source of funding for physical transition = 0. What possibility is there for social transition or RLE when there is no previously established social role (in the Western Industrialized Monoculture) to fit into? Would you mind exploring this situation in terms of generalities and hypotheticals? I'm aware that you may prefer not to do this for any number of reasons and that's fine too; I don't want you to feel like I am asking you to speak in a professional capacity in a non-professional (to say the least) setting.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:39 / 31.08.04
entity, obviously you're asking 'Nesh because you've got some particular UK-specific concern.

But to me, your question just reveals how much the concept of the Real Life Test is predicated on some mythical notion of extreme sexual difference. My 'Real Life Test' hasn't involved doing much of anything differently than I used to. The last time I saw my shrink, she asked me how long I'd be living fulltime as a guy. It's a difficult question: I'm always in between, pass sometimes and not at others, whatever... But I said a year, which is how long it had been since I changed my legal name. This was enough for her.

And I can imagine 'cross-dressing', but probably only after I have chest surgery. Right now I fear that if I dressed up as a woman in public, I wouldn't pass as a guy at all. It's a bit too... uncomfortable -- given that I still have a 'female' bodyshape etc. If I do drag up, it will be some pervy sex thing, obviously drag, rather than a way to present as a woman.

(That said, at times I've contemplated doing stripping or sexwork as a woman in order to pay for surgery/transition. It's a pipe dream, more related to the fact that it would be an easy source of money than something I could actually do in reality. Then again, 'passing' as a woman when I'm not one, although I have the equipment, would probably give me a perverse thrill anyhow.)
 
 
Ganesh
22:57 / 31.08.04
Always meant to return and try to do this thread justice, because I'm appreciating the range of viewpoints.

I think a good way of getting a bit of perspective on the Guardian's reporting is to use the old "What if...?" method. For example, an article stressing the experiences of a few people who regret coming out as gay or going out with someone of the same gender, with a headline implying that doing so is wrong and a gay person at the end quoted as saying that their sexuality could never, really, be truly valid, would seem rather dodgy, but perhaps justifiable if there was some balance.

I agree that the shortened precis that appeared the day before the full article was sensationalist in tone. I take your point about balance, but I think the article proper was balanced.

I think the 'coming out as gay ruined my life' analogy goes only so far before we're up against irreversibility: publicly declaring oneself gay differs from gender transition in that, should one subsequently decide one is mistaken, an about-turn is generally easier to enact (and usually implicates no-one other than oneself eg. surgeons, etc.). I make this point because I think the essentially irreversible physical changes involved in gender transition are, in part, justification for hearing from those who regretted their decision. I can appreciate, however, that the emphasis might appear disproportionately 'bad'.

However, that same article following a string of pieces only highlighting the "bad" side of being gay and even a couple of columns saying things like, "Why on earth are these gay people claiming they should be treated fairly and equally?" (and I use that statement only because I can't think of anything that could quite match up to the awfulness of Bindel's, "If I stick a hosepipe down my trousers it doesn't make me a man," ranting), and I'd consider the Guardian to be on a pretty equal footing with the Daily Mail.

Bindel's motives were clearly somewhat removed from Batty's - and her depth of research rather less complete. To say the least.
 
 
David Batty
15:56 / 09.09.04
I'm the author of the articles on standards of transsexual care, which have recently been published in the Guardian and on its website.

The main article in Guardian Weekend was the result of 14 months of investigation, including more than 100 interviews with TS/TG men and women, activists, medics and other experts, as well as ploughing through dozens of research papers going back well over 50 years. I spent 2-8 hrs interviewing the main case studies - worryingly, several people told me I had asked them more about their lives than the psychiatrists who had assessed them.

My initial interest in the standards of care was prompted by the discovery of the complaints against Russell Reid. (Incidentally patients have been making complaints about him for years before Charing Cross stepped in.) Having read the case notes of many of his ex-patients, interviewed several of them in depth, and spoken to other clinicians involved, I felt this was a significant story. I broke the news of the GMC inquiry in January.

However, complaints against one expert clearly didn't represent the whole story. From speaking to transsexual lobby groups and patients it became clear that the level of mistrust between the TG/TS community and the medical profession had a significant impact on the quality of care. Also from speaking to a range of medical experts it soon became clear that there was a lack of concensus on treatment - and a poor evidence base behind their practice.

The Weekend feature sought to address those issues through several case studies where things had clearly gone wrong. I decided to make Marissa the central case study for a couple of reasons. Firstly because her story was so incredible - I knew it would attract widespread attention. But secondly because she accepts some responsibility for the traumas she suffered AND firmly believes she is transsexual and is proud of her identity. In other words, here was a case that showed poor medical treatment had potentially awful consequences for people who are transsexual as well as those who have been misdiagnosed.

The other case studies illustrated flaws with treatment (I have seen their case notes) and the attitudes and expectations of patients. (Note that for legal reasons certain aspects of their medical hsitory could not be disclosed.) On the one hand you have those who believed changing sex would solve all their problems, and at the other end of the spectrum Rachael Padman, for whom genital surgery was just another step and not the one which she felt created her. As several psychiatrists and transpeople said to me patients who are isolated, disfunctional, in bad relationships, etc will probably remain so after surgery without proper preparation, care and support.

Some in the transsexual community has done their best to discredit those who complain they have been misdiagnosed or improperly treated. The vast majority of those I spoke to who regretted surgery were not liars or chasing compensation. Many had suffered considerable trauma and confusion, some had been sexually abused in childhood, others suffered from severe mental illnesses. The degree to which most could have been held accountable for their poor medical care was slight IMO. Although I have come across cases where people seem to have had surgery on a whim - usually in Thailand where you don't need to fulfill criteria for surgery.

The inclusion of the ARIF research was relatively last minute (commissioned two weeks before deadline). This was a literature review which confirmed what psychiatrists had already admitted - that the evidence base for the treatment of gender identity disorders is very poor. Most doctors and some TS people would like to see long-term proactive studies set up. However, some TS people - particularly some activists - are opposed to this due to their negative views (some no doubt justified) of the medical profession. However, there is now great pressure on transgender psychiatrists to develop evidence based practice and, hopefully, the new UK standards of care will provide the impetus for medics and the TS community to collaborate.

I dispute the accusations of transphobia. I'm not going to be held responsible for the views of Julie Bindel - who is a freelancer - or anyone else. A search of the Guardian archive will show that the paper is pro rather than anti-transsexual. I do not dispute that transsexualism exists, but as an investigative healthcare reporter I think that assessing serious problems in its treatment is quite valid. Some people have said, oh but what if this was a feature about gay people, etc. Firstly, as Ganesh points out, the difference is that transsexuals undergo irreversible medical treatment - treatment which perhaps has the most profound impact on a person's identity possible.

Secondly, I try to take care to ensure that my own work is not prejudiced. The focus of the piece was why the system was failing therefore the majority of the case studies were 'negative'. (I do also draw a distinction between MTF and FTM transsexuals.) But Padman was included to show that there are successful - very successful outcomes - and most of the commentators stressed that with the proper care and support the majority of people faired well. I also commissioned comment pieces from Press for Change in advance of the Weekend feature's publication. There's also a separate article on Padman on the Guardian website.

However, some trans activists whom I interviewed in the course of this research seemed to assume that I would unquestioningly promote their line - I did not and never would. I wanted to strike a balance of views - even if some of those came from people whom I personally considered offensive. Although I didn't come across any bigoted psychiatrists there were some whom I would not have felt happy to be seen by given their stereotypical view of gender roles and identity.

This is by no means the end of my investigation. As well as the UK standards of care, there is the inquiry into Russell Reid yet to come - and at least one court case. In the meantime I am also looking at the treatment of children with gender indentity disorders.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:47 / 09.09.04
Thank you for your response and apologies for any offence I've caused you, but I'd have to say that my experience of the Guardian is that it's articles tend to be anti/critical of transsexuality and related issues, there was never any apology for the infamous Bindel or Theobald articles, which was what coloured my opinions of your piece. Again, sorry about that and I hope you'll be staying around on Barbelith.
 
 
Ganesh
00:10 / 10.09.04
Also hoping you'll continue to contribute to this thread. I owe at least one proper, thought-through response and, while the thread stays afloat, there's a chance that I'll eventually get around to composing it.
 
 
*
04:49 / 10.09.04
Thank you very much for your response. I'm glad to hear from you. You've given me a lot more to think about.

There are a few other fora I'm involved with which focus on transgender issues, in which your article has been a topic of conversation. Would you mind if your very thoughtful response were reposted there in whole or part, or linked?

Having reread my posts and reflected on the process through which I read the article, I am ashamed to admit my opinions were formed largely by the headline. (This was certainly obvious to everyone who is not me.) I apologize for not having had the decency to suspend judgment and do an impartial reading. I ought to have put at least a tenth of the effort into reading the article that went into writing it, and at least as much effort toward objectivity.
 
 
David Batty
12:09 / 10.09.04
Hi,

Thanks for your views - my intention in posting was not to elicit apologies, however! I have no objection to people taking issue with my work - although I prefer it when they have a reasoned argument.

Just to pick up on a few points raised:

I believe the reader's editor did write a column on Julie Bindel's article although my understanding is that many in the TS community felt it fell well short of an apology. However, my suspicion is that it's the articles the pressure groups are unhappy with that get circulated round the internet most.

Writers have no control over headlines, captions and pictures - ultimately that's down to the editor. I'd be interested to know what alternative - and suitably snappy - headlines people would have used. One of the challenges in writing a piece of this kind is that you're exploring a very specialist/complex field but you have to present it in a way that's accessible to the general reader. Weekend were not looking for a repeat of the Bindel piece, and the editor took care to ensure that I was including a wide range of opinions and experiences in the feature.

Re. the statistics. The government, when presenting the Gender Recognition Bill before parliament, chose to go with the low end assessment that only 2% of people regret changing sex. No doubt this was partly to avoid giving the evangelical/right-wing lobby the the Lords any more ammunition to attack the legislation. But many studies show much higher levels of regret - hence the 'up to a fifth' (in fact a few are over a fifth). Given the lack of decent follow-up studies on transsexual patients - and the widespread variation in methodology and study size - I preferred to state the most common low and high estimates of regret (3-18%) rather than try to work out an average. It may well be that rigorous scientific research finds that only 2-3% regret rather than 18-20%. But the high drop out rate in retrospective studies could indicate people have got into trouble post-op. It would be simple to track patients' cause of death to see whether the suicide rate is as high as some researchers claim.

gentelthing - I have no major objection to you reposting my comments above (do me a favour and correct the typos though!) but I'd like to know where they'll be going. I was slightly annoyed to discover an email I sent to one reader got sent out on a TS mailing list. Had I sent their comments out on a Guardian email service I'm sure there'd have been no end of complaints...

A further point. One problem that struck me was that a significant number of people wanted to go stealth, and not be classified as transsexual post-op, but still somehow expected to have their rights as a transsexual person protected. It's worth noting that it's those trans activists who have stuck their necks out and publically declared their transsexual status have been instrumental in changing the law. Going stealth left a lot of TS people I interviewed isolated and vulnerable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:50 / 10.09.04
I believe the reader's editor did write a column on Julie Bindel's article although my understanding is that many in the TS community felt it fell well short of an apology. However, my suspicion is that it's the articles the pressure groups are unhappy with that get circulated round the internet most.

With gorgeous economy, I believe almost exactly this argument has already been looked at and received this response:

Yes, I'm curious about what defining a set of complaints as stemming from an organised pressure group, or similar, does to that protest. On one level, it seems legitimate to point out that people who would not normally have gone near the publication (from overseas) have been alerted to it, thus apparently providing an unrepresentative display of outrage in proportion to the usual readership.

On the other hand, people get involved in organised lobbying and protest groups because they are each, individually, bloody ticked off. Why should the fact that their outrage has expressed itself through a degree of organisation (alerting friends and interested activists rather than just dashing off some personal green crayon bon mots) invalidate, rather than support, their point?
Particularly perverse as people often form organisations in order to give themselvs further clout, by implying that they represent a constituency or interest group. Whereas here, the very fact that something is organised and international makes it suspect.


Bindel's article is discussed here. The reader's editor piece you mentioned is now hidden behind subscription-only doors, so I will reproduce in full here:

On January 31 the Guardian's Weekend magazine published the first of two articles by the lesbian feminist Julie Bindel, written in the place recently vacated by Julie Burchill. The column, under the heading "Gender benders, beware" applauded the decision by the British Columbia supreme court to overturn a ruling that the human rights of Kimberley Nixon, a male-to-female transsexual, had been violated when she was denied the opportunity to train as a counsellor of female rape victims. Ms Nixon was referred to as "she" in quotation marks. What rape victims would expect, the writer argued, was counselling from "women who have suffered similar experiences, not from a man in a dress".

The writer similarly applauded a judge's decision in Britain to reject a claim of sex discrimination brought against a pub landlord by five male-to-female transsexuals "only one of whom had disposed of his meat and two veg". She criticised the Equal Opportunities Commission for supporting the claimants and agreed with the judge, who said that while he respected their wish to be regarded as women, a person's wish (apparently quoting the judge directly) "doesn't determine what he is".

Further into the piece there was a reference to Kwik-Fit sex changes, and the injunction to "think about a world inhabited just by transsexuals. It would look like the set of Grease." The column concluded: "To go back to my five men and a toilet, I don't have a problem with men disposing of their genitals, but it does not make them women, in the same way that shoving a bit of vacuum hose down your 501s does not make you a man."

The column attracted about 200 letters, nearly all of which I have read. There was clearly an international lobby at work but this by no means accounted for all the mail. All but four or five of the letters were condemnatory of the views expressed in the column. Many of them condemned the Guardian for publishing the piece. The Guardian was also criticised for the caricature illustration used with the column - a hairy-chested tattooed figure in a dress with a badge reading "I'm a lady."

Most of the letters went directly to Weekend, which published four of them - all critical of the column - the following Saturday. Some later correspondents felt that freedom of expression had thus been reasonably exercised. One wrote, "[Julie Bindel's] diatribe about transsexuals was unbelievably insensitive, but nevertheless she had a perfect right to express her thoughts, and to suffer the resulting slings and arrows."

About a dozen letters came to me in the form of complaints. Some readers also made it clear that they were complaining to the Press Complaints Commission. The complaints were broadly that the article poured gratuitous offence on the members of a minority who already suffered discrimination and sometimes physical attack; that it showed not just a lack of sympathy but a lack of understanding of the experience of a transsexual person; that the language used by the writer tended to reinforce stereotypical views of transsexual people and thereby to encourage others to treat them with disdain or even hatred.

The editor of Weekend said: "We [run] vigorous, opinionated and provocative columns on a whole range of subjects and this is something I'm keen to continue and protect ... There are very many times that we disagree with our columnists, sometimes vociferously, but that is not the point - we are not looking for consensus.

"In this case, we thought that what Julie Bindel was writing was particularly interesting because it came from her - a lesbian activist for the rights of women and children. ... She is a rare kind of writer who puts her money where her mouth is."

Julie Bindel said that writing in a different place and at greater length the tone might have differed and the piece itself have been more analytical. "I know that lots of those wishing to go through sex change are deeply troubled and suffer discrimination." However, she would still say that was not the solution. "We have invented a solution to a problem that we still do not really understand."

Dismay at the piece was registered not only by transsexual people but by doctors, therapists, academics and others involved in the field. One therapist wrote: "Transgendered people would like to go about their lives in peace and dignity." This column, which obscured any argument in discriminatory language, would not help them to do that. It abused an already abused minority that the Guardian might have been expected to protect.


As mentioned, the punctuation of the final paragraph is rather key as to whether this constitutes a) an apology or b) a condemnation. I'd be delighted if anyone within the Guardian could clarify whether

This column, which obscured any argument in discriminatory language, would not help them to do that. It abused an already abused minority that the Guardian might have been expected to protect.

Was in fact Ian Mayes' judgement on the piece or simply the end of the quotation. If the former, I'd be interested to know what result that condemnation had. If the latter, I would be interested to know why the reader's editor felt it impossible or unnecessary to provide a conclusion to his article. I realise that you may not want to get sidetracked by discussing another article, but unfortunately la Bindel's only response that I am aware of on the Internet was apparently to post supportively about her article under a false name, so an inside track on what the editors were seeking to avoid would be most interesting...
 
 
David Batty
12:51 / 10.09.04
I appreciate the different nature of the interviews. That said (for example) if a patient seeking gential surgery - who hates their male genitalia - were to disclose they were sexually abused as a child, I think that would be something I'd wish to discuss.

I think there's both a problem of under-assessment by clinicians and failure to disclose relavant info by patients. The doctors gatekeeper role plays a big part in the latter.
 
 
Ganesh
12:55 / 10.09.04
That said (for example) if a patient seeking gential surgery - who hates their male genitalia - were to disclose they were sexually abused as a child, I think that would be something I'd wish to discuss.

I've absolutely no idea of the specifics of the situation but yes, I agree.
 
 
David Batty
12:59 / 10.09.04
Haus - you can contact Ian Mayes directly via email, or phone. As I said before, I had nothing to do with Bindel's piece and feel no obligation to comment on how the Guardian handled complaints about it. You might want to contact her directly.

I was alarmed by the piece when it came out, not least because I thought it might hamper my investigation. I have spoken to Julie about her views, some of which on this issue are surprisingly similar to trans activists. I was hoping to set up a debate between her and Christine Burns of Press for Change, unfortunately the paper didn't go for it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:00 / 10.09.04
That's fair enough. I was hoping for a bit of clarity on this Guardian-as-anti-transsexual/pro-transsexual dichotomy, but I can see why you might not want to go too far down that road, as both an employee of the Guardian and somebody who isn't actually responsible for the editorial policy...
 
  

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