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Astonishing X-Men #1

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
doyoufeelloved
21:04 / 28.05.04
I'm still not seeing where you would ever have gotten the idea it would be anything else...

I got it from the absolutely overwhelming enthusiasm I developed for the X-Men, and for comic books, as a result of being brought back into both by Morrison's NXM. I'll freely admit that I'm playing devil's advocate and discussing a world of pure storyline Elysium where there are no editors or sales figures or merchandising tie-ins, just a writer, the X-Men, and me clutching both to my bosom and loving them forevermore. IS THAT SO WRONG?!? (Short answer: Yes, it is, and I know that. But I find it more fruitful for my brain-power if I try blocking out those things mentioned above occasionally and letting enthusiasm take me where it will.)

And yeah, I agree about ACADEMY X, which is why I haven't given it my money, or even ten minutes of my time -- having read a couple issues of NEW MUTANTS, and seeing the roster of characters they put in place, I could tell I wasn't going to get anything out of it. Everything that's been good about Marvel comics lately is good largely in spite of Marvel itself (or more specifically, in spite of the corporate-formulated "direction," which annoyingly can't be pinpointed to one or two excisable people), and since it's been that way for years and years and I've grappled with it all through that time, I've been choosing to ignore "Marvel" entirely and speculate without limits. It's really helped me to figure out what I loved, and still love, about their comics. It probably won't be useful beyond that, but it is inspirational to some degree, and since NXM was tremendously inspiring to me...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
22:54 / 28.05.04
"New X-Men are wasting paper while characters with as much potential as Beak, Angel, the Three-In-One, Ernst, and Martha are trapped in character limbo."

Beak, at least, isn't in character limbo. He's currently Guest-Starring over in "Exiles" (Along with Angel and Xorn's helmet.) And rumor has him joining up with them by the end of the current "Earn Your Wings" storyline.

But I do miss the others.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:25 / 28.05.04
but has anyone read that eXiles stuff? is it worth reading?
 
 
doyoufeelloved
00:18 / 29.05.04
but has anyone read that eXiles stuff? is it worth reading?

I read some preview pages online and was actually not horrified by it, it seemed pretty readable; but the whole "It's QUANTUM LEAP! But with the X-Men!" angle seemd a little bit too ridiculous for my taste. It looked like Beak wasn't being butchered as a character, though.
 
 
FinderWolf
00:47 / 29.05.04
For the record, I read an interview with Cassaday where he said some of the costumes were designed "by committee" (i.e. various editors at Marvel, probably some Joe Q. in there), esp. Wolverine's.
 
 
bio k9
01:41 / 29.05.04
Anyone else remember the costume designs Alex Ross did before NXM started?



I think its funny that the X-Men would go back to costumes because other superhero groups "don't get chased through the streets with torches."

The X-Men have always had costumes and people hated them anyway. (Unless they joined the Avengers or Defenders or whatever, then being a mutant is OK.)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:32 / 29.05.04
And this is where the derided 'mutant as an allegory for being black' was handy, Spiderman and Daredevil could take their costumes off and blend, the Avengers were Government sanctioned, It was always tricky for Beast, Nightcrawler and Feral to walk down the street.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
10:25 / 29.05.04
There was a mention up thread about the costumes and Alan Davis making them look good, et al, and I think this brings up an interesting point about how the costumes were introduced, why they were given like five pages of focus, and why it's actually relevant to the characterization (even though it was indeed Federally Mandated).

It goes back, naturally, to Cassaday's art. Because of his style (and Quitely's too, for that matter), you're going to notice that someone chose to actually put these clothes on, as opposed to Alan Davis, who, a fantastic artist, just draws costume shapes over figures. Cassaday draws clothing and so, unintentionally, going into all this detail about the costumes is playing to the artist's strength.

He also makes it feel like a decision as opposed to an explanation, which is important to the story. This kind of style doesn't always work (that bad guy's bizarre Nose Carafe), but it does put the harsh glare of reality on the idea of costumes and makes the switch all the more significant in the lives of the characters.

Whether or not one likes the design of the costumes is another story.
 
 
---
10:47 / 29.05.04
I just got this yesterday and even though it's only the first issue and not much happens in it, i think Josh will do some amazing stuff and i love his writing. I do miss the New X-Men outfits though, i think they looked cool, or 'look' cool; i'm going through it at the moment and am at issue 134, i have to wait until the guy in the local comic shop gets tpb 4 and am gutted i have to actually be patient and wait a week, or even three. Anyway, to get back to the point :

Grant Morrison was given a massive amount of leeway, and was allowed to do lots of radical things with the series.

Why hasn't Josh been given the same amount of leeway as Grant was given? Apparently he didn't really have much of a choice with the costumes/outfits and am wondering why? I'm sure he could of been trusted to come up with something brilliant, is this Marvel people missing the old costumes or something? I'm wondering what else he's been asked to go along with aswell.

Still looking forward to the next issue though, i'm sure it's gonna be a great series.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
13:13 / 29.05.04
Why hasn't Josh been given the same amount of leeway as Grant was given? Apparently he didn't really have much of a choice with the costumes/outfits and am wondering why?

Grant was signed on when Marvel was still experimenting with the results of a "put the creator first" mentality. They've since abandoned that mindset in favor of an editorially-directed (and executive-mandated) consistency that keeps every franchise safe and recognizable for future film exploitation. (I also thought Joss would've gotten more choice on things like costumes, but I was wrong.)

At least they admit it now.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
15:38 / 29.05.04
Just to adress the status of Beak, he's joining the exiles. I'd rather it was Tom Skylark/Eva but there you go.

General ponderings: X-Men does not HAVE to be a superhero book. I like it better when it's an action/sci-fi book, which is how grant wrote it (and he explicitly stated he wanted to drop the superhero shit in his manifesto). Superheroics lend themselves to pretty immature storytelling and poor art - the whole genre has always struck me as being the reason nobody cares about comics anymore save a small niche market. Writing Wolverine and Scott as ACTION HEROES rather than GOONS IN RUBBER will always make more sense to me.

PREDICTED RESPONSE TO THIS POST:

FLUX: Really, what's wrong wiwth superheroes? The X-Men have always been superheroes! Joycore comics!

SUEDEHEAD: I agree with Flux!

FLYBOY: So do I! High five!

FLUX: I think Flyboy is OTM with this.
 
 
Tamayyurt
15:47 / 29.05.04
Hahahah!
 
 
---
15:53 / 29.05.04
doyoufeelloved thanks for that. Even though it makes me cringe to read the awful truth at least i know now.
 
 
Simplist
16:45 / 29.05.04
They've since abandoned that mindset in favor of an editorially-directed (and executive-mandated) consistency that keeps every franchise safe and recognizable for future film exploitation.

This is actually the part I don't get. The (highly successful) X-films have featured costumes that resembled the NXM outfits more than anything else in the line. We're obviously never going to see Hugh Jackman onscreen in shiny canary-yellow tights and a helmet with pointy flaps, so if film exploitation is the goal, why not go with the more film-friendly look that will be acceptable to and recognizable by people checking out the books because of the films (rather than making them double over with laughter)? It's not like anyone was clamoring for the return of the tights anyway. Or were they, and I was just out of the loop?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:36 / 29.05.04
Putting Beak in Exiles is a massive waste of a brilliant character. It's pathetic, really.


I like it better when it's an action/sci-fi book, which is how grant wrote it (and he explicitly stated he wanted to drop the superhero shit in his manifesto).

Yeah, but Grant is only one guy out of several dozen people who've written the X-Men over the years, and he's a minority. He may have wanted to drop the superhero stuff, but it was never up to him and it's funny, he never really wrote it that way himself, did he?

If you seriously want to avoid superheroics, you should avoid superhero comics.
 
 
bio k9
21:08 / 29.05.04
He may have wanted to drop the superhero stuff, but it was never up to him and it's funny, he never really wrote it that way himself, did he?

Even funnier, the Barbelith NXM threads were more imaginative and entertaining than the comic itself.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
02:20 / 30.05.04
"Putting Beak in Exiles is a massive waste of a brilliant character. It's pathetic, really."

Perhaps, but I can almost guarentee that if he wasn't in Exiles, then you would have never seen him again. I doubt any of the special class ever shows up again until they decide to turn Ernst back into Cassie for some giant crossover.
 
 
The Falcon
03:26 / 30.05.04
Even funnier, the Barbelith NXM threads were more imaginative and entertaining than the comic itself.

I prefer to think of them as very worthwhile secondary material.

Those Ross costumes are awful prescient, eh?

Anyway, Cyclops' rubber hat is stupid. And so are Beast's pants. Scott hasn't had a tip on his costume since the mid 80's, doesn't have one in the film and just looks awful with it in leathery black. Henry's pants suffer from 'there must be an x on here somewhere; how about all over' syndrome. Other than that, I don't mind, and the team's still got a kinda unified look.

The issue? A bit slow, really. A good few moments with Whedon exercising his character muscles, light comedy, nasty bits. Good enough; I think there's a groove yet to be hit.
 
 
Tamayyurt
11:46 / 30.05.04
Perhaps, but I can almost guarentee that if he wasn't in Exiles, then you would have never seen him again.

Better. And it's nt like I'll ever buy/read Exiles so as far as I know beak is dead.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:54 / 30.05.04
I think the special class could probably carry a second volume of Generation X - ramp up the angst and you've a comic to appeal to all the wannabe Linkin Park saddos who mope around comic shops buying all that Spawn.com shit. Actually, come to think about it, that would be horrible.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
13:22 / 30.05.04
Nobody's saying they want to avoid superheroics entirely, Matthew; they're just saying they'd like to see somebody try writing the X-Men in a different way for once. We believe Grant Morrison started down that road, and we'd like to see another capable writer -- Joss, for example -- experiment with it too. We're not calling for the public execution of Superman.

And re: costume consistency... I was under the impression that the general editorial policy rotates around the core characters looking like they did at any point in their history, at all times -- that way exploitation of the back catalogue doesn't lead to "Shit, wait, that's supposed to be Wolverine?" moments. (This is an outgrowth of Bill Jemas' "Why don't we just tell all the good stories over and over again?" policy of treating Marvel history). Of course, the bit characters are a different story, which is why Rachel Summers is in that gaudy technicolor monstrosity over in UXM. But I only heard this angle on consistency mentioned briefly (I think in LYING IN THE GUTTERS), and it was like a year ago, so things may have changed since then.
 
 
Tamayyurt
13:30 / 30.05.04
Radiator- Depends on who wrote it it could actually be really be quite brilliant. I still think the special class would've made a better roster for the New New X Men title than the lame ass mutant models they got. After all in grant's run the kids were the New X Men (I think Quintin Quire said something to that effect.)
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
15:22 / 30.05.04
I like it better when it's an action/sci-fi book, which is how grant wrote it (and he explicitly stated he wanted to drop the superhero shit in his manifesto).

This is what I don't get, with all this "write it as something other superheroes", stuff..

You have Sci-fi + action + super/special/mutant powers...

Am I the only one who thinks there's really not worlds of difference between all the sci-fi/action rubbish in comics which helps define and keep comics mired in the same genre slump?

"Yeah, yeah, I've got this crazy cool looking character with psychic powers who goes around saving people! It totally turns the superhero genre on it's head! It's totally new! And she wears leather!"

Well, there's your alternative!

Do you really think an X-men book isn't going to give you great big helpings of action and science fiction? Is it the word superhero that scares you away? What, I ask, is the difference? Did Grant really drop the "superhero shit" or does he in fact have a huge fondness for it, and spend a large amount of time writing it? Funny, that.

Were Watchmen and Top 10 superhero comics? Or were they incredinly clever masterpieces that the comics world bows before? But they were CLEVER! What if EVERYONE had a superpower, or the HEROES were like, REAL, with PROBLEMS! yeah! That doesnt count! How is it that for even the most credible and respected creators, their main body of work is made up of superheroes? (with a twist!)

The alternatives are the same. But I bet you love them.
 
 
bio k9
15:42 / 30.05.04
No, I love you.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
15:59 / 30.05.04
Did Grant really drop the "superhero shit" or does he in fact have a huge fondness for it, and spend a large amount of time writing it? Funny, that.

As we've agreed before, no, Grant didn't drop the "superhero shit." He wrote a three-year-long superhero plot involving Their Greatest Enemy Back From The Dead!, A Horror From The Farthest Reaches Of Space!, and other classic superhero tropes. I don't think anybody flat-out denies that there was no superheroic material whatsoever in Grant's take on the X-Men, because there was a lot of it.

What I AM arguing is that there are a lot of things that WEREN'T overtly "superheroic." There were no secret identities for the core team. There was an emphasis on the details of education and culture/society-building and the realities of actual adolescence, not adolescence-as-metaphor in the Stan Lee mode. There was a retreat from flamoboyant costuming towards a practical look. There was action, adventure, and superpowers, yes. But that doesn't automatically make it a superhero book. Is THE X-FILES superhero fiction? Lots of superpowers there, including in several recurring characters. Were those characters superheroes?

Again, it's about the framework, what the story chooses to emphasize. We can argue all day about what Grant emphasized, but I think his run was steeped in superhero tropes (and let me reiterate that I enjoyed them -- I yelped aloud at Jean's death from Logan's claws, I do value superhero opera as a form of entertainment) while emphasizing ideas that come from outside that stylistic line. We'd like to see somebody pick that ball up and run with it, and allow us to see the X-Men interacting with each other and trying to build their world amidst some stories that don't involve A Plot To Kill The Humans! or A Plot To Kill The Mutants!. But instead we've got flamboyant costumes and A Battle Royale Against A Mysterious New Threat!

Suedehead, you're right that a lot of comics try to pretend they're not about superheroes while incorporating only the most tired "fringe" ideas and concepts. But those comics don't give us Mutant Town, or Kick, or The Special Class, or The X-Corporation, or Telepathy Class, or a teenage pregnancy, or any of the dozens of other great ideas Grant threw into the X-Men stew that could, under a talented writer, be expanded into fruitful directions that have nothing to do with superhero action plotting. Your argument shoots fish in a barrel because it refers to work that dresses itself up in outside trappings as a marketing device that establishes "legitimacy," and not as a lever towards experimentation with genre constraints.

Again: I LIKE SUPERHEROES! They're a lot of fun, and I loved Grant's take on the X-Men as superheroes! I just wish somebody would try treating the X-Men as if they were something else for a change, because I think the potential for really interesting stories is there and I hate to see potential get wasted. I'm perfectly happy to watch these characters drink tea and teach teenagers how to read minds for several issues at a time, while occasionally facing problems of the non-Let's Have A Big Fight! variety, because I love them so much as characters and "people" that I know it could still be interesting. And if you want to attack that on "commercial" grounds, then keep in mind there's only about two hundred thousand people reading X-MEN worldwide in the first place these days, and most of them have likely been doing so for over a decade and there's very little that could ever make them stop.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
16:05 / 30.05.04
I'm sorry to keep beating this into the ground, but I'm getting this sense of "The X-Men can't ever be anything other than superhero fiction. Just accept it, this is the best of all possible worlds" off of some of these arguments, and that's kind of infuriating, because I just flatly don't believe it to be true. No fictional work has to always be one steady thing, especially one in serial comics, which are unique from every other long-form story on Earth. There's always another way to read most things.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
16:40 / 30.05.04
I wasn't really adressing what you said doyoufeelloved, because I pretty much agreed with the last large post you wrote in reply to me! Comics deal with very standard things, and I don't see a lot of difference in it, generally. See: people saying "comics need more than superheroes" then going on to do comics that comment specifically on superheroes/comics, fantasy or sci-fi that practically no-one who doesn't read comics already is going to be interested in.

Although: X-files? Did the HEROES have powers? I mean, if Mulder did. Well, then. There you go.

The X-men are certainly heroes, often. I'm sorry about my previous post, because it was certainly a bit rambling and general (as is this one) - I want to shoot the fish in the barrel (I might have to start a new topic).

You can read X-men however you want, but they will always be "super" beings, different or not. In Grant's run the things you refer to are the fringe aspects of good superhero writing - adding a lot of colour and depth to it as a whole.

I think I'm trying to say that superhero comics can be many things, it's just that all those things are essentially the same thing.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
16:43 / 30.05.04
I might be talking rubbish, though. I'm tired!
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
19:29 / 30.05.04
Just kind of to stress a point here- I HATE stuff like the Authority, stuff that's all kind of clever and ironic about it's use of superheroes. that's largely the problem emerging in the genre, you only seem to get stories in the style of claremont-lite or ellis-lite and NOTHING ELSE WHATSOEVER.

My point's kind of this- when Scott does that dive-blast at cassie in NXM 117, he isn't acting like a superhero- he's acting like max payne or someone in a John Woo movie. In fact, for most of that arc Scott and Logan act like action movie heroes- crashing planes, getting blown up, shot up and beat up in style. The first arc didn't offer a superhero-style treatment of characters with super-powers, nor did most of the rest of the series. Jean and Emma didn't use psi-bolts, they used smarts. And that's what made the series, if you ask me. It felt fresh and non-embarassing in ways that most of what I've seen of AXM looks to be pretty fucking tired.

So students with superpowers should act like students (special class, omega gang) rather than superheroes (New New Mutants), and supersoldiers should act like soldiers (Wolverine, Fantomex). Is this making any sense?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:59 / 30.05.04
I want to have the children of doyoufeelloved, who has put many of the points I wanted to make better than me. The X-Men are not superheroes, they act superheroically as do any number of non-mutant characters. And I believe this is the accurate reading of the Claremont years. It's completely irrelevent whether they describe themselves as 'superheroes', me calling myself 'a soldier of fortune' doesn't suddenly make me B A Baracus, and I pity the Flux who doesn't seem to notice the distinction.

What's interesting is that, as someone noted, the team is currently nothing like the films. The costumes are different, there are any number of characters not in the films, most of the people who are in the film are different here (Kitty is older, Jubilee is god knows where, Pyro was never a goodie, Iceman is older, Nightcrawler don't have the tattoos on his face etc), Jean's dead, Xavier has left, Magneto might be dead, and Marvel have restarted their policy of putting out any old crap with an X on it to sell, which is surely going to discourage anyone coming to the comics having discovered the films.

Now, the earliest we're likely to see X3 would be Summer 2005, so that gives Marvel plenty of time to reorder the house of X into a more recognisable status quo in time for movie generated renewed interest, but this does seem to be trying some new things with the franchise while at the same time acting conservatively in others so as to not offend the fatbeards. Because, when no-one else is buying, it's those fatbeards you've got to survive off...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:11 / 30.05.04
Perhaps this is truly a matter of expectations. Many of you are getting your first taste of being burned by Marvel re: the X-Men. This is a cyclical thing, the other shoe was bound to drop sometime, and before too long things will be more like they were when Grant was writing it. (I must say, though, that I'm not convinced that Whedon ISN'T going in largely the same direction that Morrison was.)

The thing that bugs me are the folks who are in denial of the reality of where the roots of the X-Men franchise lie. I agree that the more sensible and down-to-earth approaches to the franchises are better, but it is entirely foolish and inaccurate to claim that the X-Men aren't superheroes, because that's how they started out, and it will always be a part of the X-Men. The franchise may be at its best when it downplays traditional superhero hallmarks, but it doesn't change the fact that the X-Men is essentially a superhero comic.

I've always been unconvinced by the Quitely uniforms - they are more practical than the colorful spandex, sure, but they are still quite garish and over-the-top. They still look like superhero costumes to me. I think that Paul Smith and John Romita Jr.'s approach to Storm, Rogue, Rachel, and Kitty during the 80s was a lot more OTM. The way Marc Silvestri drew Dazzler in her leotards seemed a lot more reasonable too.
 
 
Simplist
18:37 / 31.05.04
Many of you are getting your first taste of being burned by Marvel re: the X-Men.

True enough, I suppose. I've never been much of an X-Men fan historically, and almost didn't even bother picking up Grant's run. Of course, I ended up loving Grant's take, and grew fairly attached to the characters, to the extent that I was even motivated to pick up all the Essentials volumes to fill in the backstory. I'm not sure I'll keep following them now; the new book is well written, but that splash page with the costumes really did knock me right out of the story. Based on experience I forsee gradually losing interest over the course of the current run, then blowing the whole thing off when Whedon departs, unless Marvel manages to snag Moore or Gaiman or someone comparable for the followup.

This is a cyclical thing, the other shoe was bound to drop sometime, and before too long things will be more like they were when Grant was writing it.

I think of any given funnybook status quo as composed of a kind of elastic substance subject to the usual action/reaction laws, ie. the quicker and further you stretch it, the harder and further it snaps back. Morrison & Quitely may have just changed the look of the characters a bit too suddenly, leading to the current WAAAAY-retro reaction phase, wherein the costumes revert all the way back to the 70s rather than some more recent era; if GM&FQ had introduced the new gear more gradually the changes might've had more chance of sticking (though I'm glad they didn't; the new look gave the opening arc a lot more punch). As it was, the changes barely lasted through their run--colorists started drawing bright yellow X's on everyone's boots, Logan got put in his Ultimate outfit (which I didn't care for at the time, but which now seems positively sublime compared to the new thing). I'm sure things will indeed drift back toward some kind of compromise, but as I said above I probably won't be reading the books anymore by that time.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:50 / 31.05.04
See, to me, Wolverine just looks as he almost always has right now. It's the same old same old costume, slightly tweaked. I think Wolverine is better out of costume, but after about 19 years of reading X-Men comics, it's all the same to me. With the exception of the Morrison years, this is the best Cyclops has looked since the early 80s. I hated the X-Factor costumes, and that horrible Jim Lee outfit. Seriously, it's an improvement!

I think that some of you may just lack a frame of reference re: costumes. You didn't read all of those 90s issues!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:55 / 31.05.04
With Wolverine, though, I just don't understand why they don't go back to the brown/gold suit from the 80s instead of the 70s/90s canary yellow/baby blue thing.
 
 
bio k9
20:59 / 31.05.04
Wait.

Morrison's run was so great you went out and bought nearly 100 issues worth of B&W trade paperbacks and the sight of the new costumes in Astonishing X-Men was so jarring you don't think you can continue to read the book?

Some of you guys are fucking weird.
 
  

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