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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Which Alien film is best?

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15:10 / 14.11.06

I'm still finding you slightly baffling. On the basis of the information we have available about neocon policy (use Google, it's your friend) and philosophy Aliens doesn't look much like a film that supports the neocon agenda, quite the opposite in fact.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinions on the mindset behind neoconservatism, as I am entitled to think that they have nothing to do with the issue at hand (the actual verifiable facts of the case and how they relate to the politics of a movie we like to call Aliens) , and, also, as I am entitled to think that your reading of said mindset is rather reductive and, quite possibly, very uninformed.

As for whether Aliens is really macho, that's another question - the answer to which is probably quite complicated seeing as it stars an androgynous woman who adopts the role of both deathdealer and mother, and takes on another mother - a really BIG MUTHA!

Agreed, Aliens probably isn't the closest an action film could come to mirroring Vietnam. That was overstating the case, but only slightly. It has rather obvious allegorical links: the failure of an American/corporate colonial mission, hostile environment making conventional warfare difficult, huge losses sustained by a technologically superior force representing the colonial mission, that kind of stuff.

I don't actually have anything invested in having this debate other than to get you to actually have a proper think about what you're saying.

15:53 / 14.11.06

Any film that depicts combat in a cool way could easily be misconstrued as pro military, but by the end it turns out that there was no reason for them to go to this colony, and the entire venture was a scheme designed to raise corporate profits. Maybe it wasn't at the time, but looking at it today, I can't help but see some Halliburton in there, putting soldier's lives at risk to increase profits. Ultimately, the film condemns the military mindset, all the really gung ho characters are dead, and it's the cautious ones who will only use violence in defense who survive.

16:15 / 14.11.06

she’s dying to save a universe that doesn’t remotely deserve the sacrifice

Kinda like Jesus.

Should have been monks. In a living wooden ship.

Was supposed to be monks.

Really was monks in real-life.

16:30 / 14.11.06

yeah that living wooden ship idea was INSANE! Somebody needs to do that film. It just wasn't meant for Aliens 3.

I dig the whole quadrilogy but love Aliens3 for Charles Dutton, Pete Postlethwaite and most importantly for Eliot Goldenthal's creepy as fuck soundtrack.

07:46 / 15.11.06

Ultimately, the film condemns the military mindset

Yeah, I think this comes across really strongly, to the point I was genuinely suprised to see the film described as a Neocon wet dream. The military is utterly ineffective, and is castrated halfway through the film (those guns all rendered useless when they take the ammo). Its most gung-ho proponent - Hudson - is reduced from bragging, swaggering loudmouth to a whimpering mess, less capable of survival than an eight year old girl.

Moreover, the characters only manage as well as they do as a result of their positive human characteristics. In one of the great moments of the movie Ripley wrests control of the APC and drives it right into the aliens' nest in order to rescue whoever might be left alive. The humans triumph not because of their superior weaponry (which is useless) but because of selfless empathy for others.

08:38 / 15.11.06

Moreover, the characters only manage as well as they do as a result of their positive human characteristics. In one of the great moments of the movie Ripley wrests control of the APC and drives it right into the aliens' nest in order to rescue whoever might be left alive. The humans triumph not because of their superior weaponry (which is useless) but because of selfless empathy for others.

I personally fealt that when Ripley takes on the alien queen by straping a flame thrower and a high performance machine gun TOGETHER , and then procedes to mount a big yellow robtic suit to punch the alien queen in teh face!!1!. That it was really when you dig deep a profound statement about human empathy in the face of insurmoutable odds.

08:55 / 15.11.06

Well, quite - once again she's going back into her worst nightmare in order to rescue someone. When she straps herself into the loading machine (basically a JCB, crucially it's not a piece of military equipment, despite all the military hardware loaded up on the ship), it's to bail out someone else. Ripley's as safe as houses at each point and as you correctly identified in this cases, it's her disregard for her own safety and her will to help others that lead to the rescue of the child, and symbolically securing the future of humanity.

09:40 / 15.11.06

'symbolically securing the future of humanity. '

Like Jesus. In a JCB.

09:51 / 15.11.06

Now there's a great idea for a movie.

12:55 / 15.11.06

From http://www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/Starship_Troopers (yes I have too much time on my hands)-

James Cameron's Aliens movie incorporated themes and phrases right out of the novel such as "the drop," "bug hunt," and the cargo loader exoskeleton.

The actors playing the marines in the film were required to read Starship Troopers as part of their training prior to filming.

I'm saying nuthin.

13:24 / 15.11.06

James Cameron's Aliens movie incorporated themes and phrases right out of the novel such as "the drop," "bug hunt," and the cargo loader exoskeleton.

The actors playing the marines in the film were required to read Starship Troopers as part of their training prior to filming.

I'm saying nuthin.

Seems like reading Starship Troopers would be a bloody good idea for a group of actors who were expected to portray space marines.

As it is Starship Troopers (novel) is nothing like Aliens. If you're going to draw some parallels then have the courage of your convictions and draw a decent argument rather than using insinuation, it's lazy.

Two words and an exo-skeleton does not a rip-off make.

13:29 / 15.11.06

Incidentally, Bed Head, cudos on the post last page. I'm still not convinced that Alien3 is anything more than mediocre both as a stand-alone film and as part of the series, and I believe I have several valid response to the post. However, as it's on this Friday (Channel 5 I believe), I'll tape it and give it another watch bearing in mind the points you've raised.

13:59 / 15.11.06

One thing before re-watching it -- I re-watched the thing on video the first time this thread was active, and remember being surprised at the visual quality of the film. I'm not sure exactly why, but it had a *look* that's gone out of style. I can't tell if it's video made to look like film, or film that was shot/lit like video, but VISUALLY, it has the feel of a late 80s, early 90s music video. Which is unsurprising given the director's prior experience (what he wuz before Fight Club), but provided an obstacle against my being absorbed whole-heartedly into the film.

It couldn't have been more distracting if it had been filmed in Technicolor or Cinemascope... but it wasn't something I processed immediately. I had to think about what it was that wasn't working for me.

This could be an artifact of the way the film was transferred onto DVD or something -- I'm not technically savvy enough to know. But be prepared for something that looks a little TV-ish and bright, even though the story is anything but.

15:05 / 15.11.06

Just for the record, I love this thread.

'Sgreat when a bunch of fans start ranting but don't start hitting each other

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

15:56 / 15.11.06

grant - Which movie are you talking about?

The author of the book Jarhead (later made into a movie) said that you can not make a war movie depicting combat without making it at least a little pro war (paraphrased).

The thing about Aliens is that it works like a magic trick.

It opens and you are shown what you already know, that Ripley and the kitty are alive in a shuttle.

The plot moves along and you are told that there will be some seriously awesome revenge violence against the aliens because of all the uber bad ass marines.

The thing gets turned around on you when the marines are striped of their advantage and butchered faster then Ripley's crew was in the first film.

Sure, all the cool gung ho marine stuff makes you think "Those guys are bad ass" but in the end they get wasted even though a little girl was able to survive. The movie swings from a Heroic Tale of SPACE to Never Start a Land War in SPACE pretty quickly.

In the end, yes, Ripley duct tapes a gun and a flamethrower together to head into the belly of the beast, and yes, this is a bit of gun porn, but it IS an action movie. The fact that it is one of the smartest action films ever made must be taken into account though. This isn't mindless violence for the sake of it, the marines bravado in the first half of the film isn't there to convince me to Yvan Eht Nioj, the violence is there to show that no matter how ultra violent the marines can be the xenos are better at it, and the bravado is there because yeah, the marines have kicked some other bugs asses, but they have no idea what they are in store for.

Look at the finally. Ripley manages to defeat the ultimate alien bad ass with loading equipment. IF she had strapped herself into some kind of marine war suit I think it would have had a different feel, but this is the civilian with civilian tools saving the day.

Calling the movie a neocon wet dream seems a bit of a stretch. The corporate guy gets killed when he tries to fuck over the good guys to save his ass. All the marines are killed without accomplishing anything really. At the end of the movie the entire complex gets blown to shit, destroying the materials that Weyland-Yutani had been shown to care more about then the colonists.

Its more of a colonial era nightmare then a modern era fantasy when all is said and done.

16:35 / 15.11.06

The figure of the Alien subverts most readings, since it uses so many contrary iconographies of destruction (phallic/vaginal, tooth/acid, internal/external, seductive/aggressive, one/many ((which is a big part of the team dynamics in all these movies -- hero vs. team vs. monster vs. colony vs. corporation))). So it's both a neocon's wet dream and worst nightmare.

Above, I was talking about Fincher's Alien, Alien 3.

You can see into all the shadows in it, if I remember correctly. Crisp lines which should have been a little blurrier & less distinct.

16:39 / 15.11.06

At the end of the movie the entire complex gets blown to shit

With a really great splosion and the intense music! What could top that? Bishop getting cut in half and a big GIANT ROBOT VERSUS GIANT ALIEN FITE!! GET AWAY FROM HER YOU BITCH!

Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns

16:42 / 15.11.06

Just for the record, I love this thread.

'Sgreat when a bunch of fans start ranting but don't start hitting each other

Do you wanna smack in the mush Boboss? I have double damage.

16:47 / 15.11.06

To clarify what I mean by this:
You can see into all the shadows in it, if I remember correctly.

Is not that there are no shadows, but no *suggestive* shadows. Either you can see exactly what you're looking at (only a little grey), or it's black. No hints of motion or glints off something that could be a pipe or could be IT.

---

I have to love bits of Alien4, by the way, like single issues of a comic book. Swimming. Swarming. Big glass jars.

Sometimes I feel like it would've been better as a sequel to Brazil or something -- just plucked right out of Alien continuity and put in a different kind of universe, I think it'd be much more satisfying.

17:03 / 15.11.06

Calling the movie a neocon wet dream seems a bit of a stretch

I think I've established that, haven't I? At least I hope I have. Your point point about Jarhead is worthwhile, though.

Quantum, you've just got me proper excited. I really, really want to watch Aliens now!

And, Harrison, I have magic triple so fuck off.

Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns

17:16 / 15.11.06

Whatever, spell casting...!

17:30 / 15.11.06

Sorry, Elijah, I've just realised that my last post sounds really patronising, you had other worthwhile stuff to say too, but I just wanted to make a point about the neocon thing.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:39 / 15.11.06

Oh really, I did not read it as patronicle (... well, I typed it so its a word now) at all. We DID have similar points to make, and when I get wound up i kind of babble so i usually end up repeating things that have already been said.

All good mate.

17:45 / 15.11.06

@ Harrison GET AWAY FROM BOBOSS YOU BITCH!
*ahem* I mean, I thought the creature effects in 3 were a bit of a letdown, the suit looked so different to the CGI and made it much less scary.

08:12 / 21.11.06

Grant: It couldn't have been more distracting if it had been filmed in Technicolor or Cinemascope... but it wasn't something I processed immediately. I had to think about what it was that wasn't working for me... you can see into all the shadows in it, if I remember correctly. Crisp lines which should have been a little blurrier & less distinct.

Again, I can really agree with what you’re saying here. I’m by no means blind to Alien3's many faults, and to its many little-idiosyncracies-that-distract-somewhat, but I still think the good stuff helps make the flaws so much less important.

Also, on the ’look’ of the film - I seem to remember when Seven first came out, the cinematographer was proudly claiming that they’d done something quite unusual in the processing of that film; Now, I know nothing about photography, but, IIRC, it was something to do with the silver, that basically meant the blacks all came out looking really black. Blacker than black. Not to suggest that that technique was used anywhere Alien3, just that Fincher does sorta pay attention to his shadows, is all. Or did, anyway.

So, anyway - before, I said I’ll try and dig up a rather fab piece that Amy Taubin wrote about it for Sight & Sound, because I remeber it as being rather brilliantly written and has oodles of great stuff about all the subtext. And now I’ve got my hands on a copy. I’m borrowing a computer to post this, and a scanner too, so I won’t be able to fix anything straight away if it’s a bad scan, but hopefully this’ll work:

So, this is ‘Invading Bodies: Alien3 and the trilogy’ by Amy Taubin, Sight & Sound July 1992. Really, it’s good!

A3[1].2

A3[2].3

(..also: this is actually really embarrassing too, because I promise I haven’t even seen this article for - must be a decade, at least - but now I can see that all I’ve really done in my posts to this thread is basically recycle all her ideas. And in much less elegant prose, at that, argh. What can I say? Wasn’t deliberately stealing her stuff; it must’ve just left quite an impression on the young Bed, is all. Anyway.)

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