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Intelligent Design and Evolution. How do you decide?

 
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
 
robertrosen
18:14 / 12.08.05

I am extremely discouraged. I turned to God as a human being in desperate need of direction and understanding. Life had beaten me down. My newfound faith had given me a reason to live again, to feel good about life and myself. It gave me time to rest and gain my mental strength. It allowed me to forgive myself for mistakes I made in my life. It gave me hope!

I cannot explain the brutality of the Old Testament or reconcile the Warrior nature of the Old Testament God with the Loving and Peaceful nature of the New Testament God. I assumed He was dealing with humanity as it changed and went through its own evolution, doing what needed to be done.

All of your points are well taken and on point. I don't think I can debate them. There are many good and moral people that do not believe in God. My arguments make no sense to me any longer. Thank you for your time and understanding.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
19:21 / 12.08.05
Hey, don't take it so hard. Everybody has to admit that, at least during the Roman Era, Christians were a shining example of civilized humanity. In fact, I think Christianity was pretty much what kept barbarity at bay during the years of the Eastern Roman Empire (now called the Byzantine Empire) and there is a strong argument to be made that the enlightenment of the Renaissance was in fact the culmination rather than the repudiation of Christian Thought.

Basically, Christianity and religious influence in general has been quite positive when it chose to lead by example and extremely negative when it chose to enforce adherence to dogma and blind obedience to Church authority.

I mean, there is an old saying, at least I've said it for a long time, "if you have to ask yourself whether you believe in God or not, then the answer is 'you don't.'"

Religion and supernatural belief aren't really a choice, but, like you say, a calling that you can't refute, BUT it is, almost by "design" something that can't really be shared in the same way as scientific knowledge. Personally, I think ID does more damage to religious faith because by claiming to be a scientific theory it holds out the claim that the existence of God cansomeday be proven which, as Douglas Adams points out, would then contradict the essential nature of a diety that requires faith.
 
 
Proinsias
00:28 / 13.08.05
Sorry to lower the tone of the discussion but did anyone see the rerun of Penn & Tellers' bullshit a few nights ago(UK). Surprisingly it was on creationism and that in many states (a whole ocean away from me thankfully) they were lobbying to give creationism a fair hearing in the classroom, which I believe is all well and good. The problem was that they were printing stickers that were being placed on every copy of Campbells' Biology stating that evoloution is only a theory and not fact, they seem to miss the point that the entire book is theory (and for that matter all of the sciences, though I may be mistaken) not simply the chapter they object to.
On another note the evoloutionary theory seems to me to explain most of the life on this planet, and in my mind prove itself when we hear of antibiotic resistance developing in the past hundred years. The two rather gaping holes is how did it start and how did we get from monkey to man - although I have noticed that the missing link has been reported in the papers every six months or so.
Lastly why the hell do fungal spores have the ability to survive in a vaccum.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:41 / 13.08.05
I thought I heard that the states where they put those stickers on almost immediately repealed the order and so the stickers came off again.
 
 
rising and revolving
13:37 / 13.08.05
What I find most interesting about the debate is that it's a clash between science and politics - and the scientists have no idea how to handle that. They're being attacked outside their paradigm, and their only ability to retort is to say "But it's not actually science!" - for years now, they've been under the impression that would work. Mainly, as near as I can tell, because it would work on them.

However, the game being played by ID is a political game. It's exactly as robertrosen points out above - 54% of people believe in something. Those people feel they have a right to have their belief taught side by side with science despite being (largely) ignorant of science.

Now, let me put forward an analogy. Imagine 70% of people thought that cars should only have one nut holding the wheels on. Earnestly believed it, even though 99% of auto engineers would agree that this is foolish, and will cause your wheels to fall off at any speed. Should the engineers be obliged to follow the beliefs of the majority? Even though they are trained specialists in the field who have had years of experience with exactly this case? Even though they actually understand what they are speaking of?

Of course not. But it's what's happening in the US right now - and, I'd argue, it's not just happening in the ID field. It's happening in the media, where people expect to be able to consume news that agrees with their beliefs - facts be damned. It's a sickness of the mind, or a reaction to media overload, I don't know which.

But I definately feel that science is going to have a problem while they present this problem scientifically - they need to take the fight to the land of sound-bite and ideological war.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
09:19 / 14.08.05
Interesting. But what if 70% of people decide to vote for a political party that's got no chance of running the country successfully? The problem is that in a country that's not an oligarchy, and is in fact a democracy, people tend to expect that experts listen to their demands when there are a lot of them, regardless of their actual relation to the facts of the matter.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
19:23 / 17.08.05
I like the comparison of ID theory to people who just want one nut on a car. I also agree that scientists need to find better ways for getting across to the general public just how illogical creationism an ID are.

It would be hard to support an argument that made you look like a clown.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:55 / 18.08.05
people tend to expect that experts listen to their demands when there are a lot of them, regardless of their actual relation to the facts of the matter.

But the role of a democratic government is also to protect the minority and their opinions... but that's a Switchboard thread.
 
 
Axolotl
12:13 / 18.08.05
That is the role of a good democratic government, but I'm not sure most people realise that. They think democracy is about enforcing the will of the majority. But as you say this is more of a swithcboard issue.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
15:31 / 18.08.05
Yeah, back to Intelligent Design, I think the primary argument from people in general is that it is "obvious" that the world was designed. That the evidence is "apparent" in the everyday natural environment.

However, that is really due to the fact that we are "intelligent observers." Intelligence itself is essentially the ability to discern patterns and order, and the way that intelligence has involved in human brains is that it tends to find order and design even where none exist.

Really, it should be called the Intelligent Observer Theory.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
01:00 / 31.08.05
Don't know if this warrants a seperate thread, possibly in Head Shop, but anyway...
The worst part of the ID debate, for me at least, is that IDers are shifting their focus away from arguing with scientists, who can argue back and do so well, and onto indoctrinating kids: like in this L.A times article.
And then, from the same article, there's the even weirder stuff:
The Texas museum sponsors a continuing hunt for living pterodactyls in Papua New Guinea. Baugh said five colleagues have spotted the flying dinosaurs, "but all the sightings were made after dark, and we were not able to capture the creatures."
Did anyone see an article (which I can't find) about sightings of Superman in Siberia? Yep, Superman, last son of Krypton, flying around, no doubt very chilly, in the Siberian skies. I doubt DC comics are dispatching a team to look for him. The L.A times article also makes reference to Bigfoot, whose existence is apparently a) a fact and b) an argument for creationism.
My mind continues to boggle at these people.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:41 / 31.08.05
That's just too depressing for words.

Of course, rallying magnificently, the existance of modern day dinosaurs doesn't automatically blow evolution out of the water. Crocodiles and sharks are effectively unchanged since prehistoric times, with only minor evolutionary adaptions to deal with changes in atmospheric chemistry, etc.
 
 
astrojax69
05:34 / 01.09.05
found this from daniel dennett on the edge website. i'm on his side. the whole baggage of the word 'design' is the crux that lends seeming weight to the i.d. side of things - the root of the issue lies here, i think...

for example: from dennett's article -

Take the development of the eye, which has been one of the favorite challenges of creationists. How on earth, they ask, could that engineering marvel be produced by a series of small, unplanned steps? Only an intelligent designer could have created such a brilliant arrangement of a shape-shifting lens, an aperture-adjusting iris, a light-sensitive image surface of exquisite sensitivity, all housed in a sphere that can shift its aim in a hundredth of a second and send megabytes of information to the visual cortex every second for years on end.

But as we learn more and more about the history of the genes involved, and how they work — all the way back to their predecessor genes in the sightless bacteria from which multicelled animals evolved more than a half-billion years ago — we can begin to tell the story of how photosensitive spots gradually turned into light-sensitive craters that could detect the rough direction from which light came, and then gradually acquired their lenses, improving their information-gathering capacities all the while.

We can't yet say what all the details of this process were, but real eyes representative of all the intermediate stages can be found, dotted around the animal kingdom, and we have detailed computer models to demonstrate that the creative process works just as the theory says.

All it takes is a rare accident that gives one lucky animal a mutation that improves its vision over that of its siblings; if this helps it have more offspring than its rivals, this gives evolution an opportunity to raise the bar and ratchet up the design of the eye by one mindless step. And since these lucky improvements accumulate — this was Darwin's insight — eyes can automatically get better and better and better, without any intelligent designer.

Brilliant as the design of the eye is, it betrays its origin with a tell-tale flaw: the retina is inside out. The nerve fibers that carry the signals from the eye's rods and cones (which sense light and color) lie on top of them, and have to plunge through a large hole in the retina to get to the brain, creating the blind spot. No intelligent designer would put such a clumsy arrangement in a camcorder, and this is just one of hundreds of accidents frozen in evolutionary history that confirm the mindlessness of the historical process.
[my bolding]

& just a little on...

Intelligent design advocates, however, exploit the ambiguity between process and product that is built into the word "design." For them, the presence of a finished product (a fully evolved eye, for instance) is evidence of an intelligent design process. But this tempting conclusion is just what evolutionary biology has shown to be mistaken.

Yes, eyes are for seeing, but these and all the other purposes in the natural world can be generated by processes that are themselves without purposes and without intelligence. This is hard to understand, but so is the idea that colored objects in the world are composed of atoms that are not themselves colored, and that heat is not made of tiny hot things.

The focus on intelligent design has, paradoxically, obscured something else: genuine scientific controversies about evolution that abound
 
 
Axolotl
10:12 / 01.09.05
There's a nice little piece by Richard Dawkins in the Guardian today (it's probably available online as well). Unsuprisingly its vehemently anti-I.D. but Dawkins' writings are always worthwhile imho.
 
 
Ganesh
10:24 / 01.09.05
I don't think Dawkins' piece is anti-ID. It gives ID the consideration it has earned as a viable scientific theory ie. virtually none.
 
 
Ganesh
10:31 / 01.09.05
One of the reasons that I find this topic interesting is that the ID arguments aren't that easy to refute. For instance, how do you respond to Behe's claim that the cilium is irreducibly complex (in the sense that anything short of the whole mechansism couldn't work and hence could not have evolved by gradual processes required for evolution)?

What about (the much easier to rebut) claim that evolution contradicts the second law of thermodynaics?

There are lots more. I think, if I put my mind to it, I could argue a fairly strong ID case these days.


Aren't these arguments against elements of (schools of thought within) evolutionary theory, rather than any sort of positive case for intelligent design?
 
 
alterity
13:28 / 01.09.05
Dawkins is staunchly anti-ID and always has been. One of his books is entitled The Blind Watchmaker! And check out his arguments hereagainst religion in general. The questions you list--especially the first--speak to the fact that ID is not science, precisely because it cannot be refuted. To take an examplefrom the inimitable Fafblog, you can't prove that the world is not made of tiny little Leprechauns! They're really small, and they create gravity by grabbing ahold of us and pulling us down. When we jump, we break free from them for just a minute before they grab back on. You say you have a microscope? Well I say that the Leprechauns are smaller than even the greatest microscope or theoretical physics equations can detect! Of course that's all BS. The point is that to argue something is "irreducibly complex" is to make a claim that is unlikely to be refutable. Which is not to say that all scientitic claims can be refuted, but that there needs to be a method/means by which such refutation can be attempted. (It's called the scientific method, BTW.) The Leprechaun theory, just like ID, leaves no such place and therefore is not science as the term is traditionally understood. If you want to change what the term means, go ahead. If you do, however, you have to accept that any crackpot with an irrefutable theory has just as much claim to TRUTH as you do. Dawkins is not treating ID like science (at least not in the passages cited), but is rather showing how it doesn't even exist in the same realm as science.
 
 
Ganesh
13:39 / 01.09.05
My point is, I don't feel Dawkins is unduly prejudiced against ID; rather, he accords it the respect it deserves as a scientific hypothesis ie. virtually none. He details his reasons for this in the co-written Guardian piece.
 
 
Axolotl
14:34 / 01.09.05
My comments on the article weren't meant as a criticism. I completely agree with his views on ID.
 
 
Atyeo
13:50 / 02.09.05
While we are in a linking frenzy, check out this brilliant Onion parody.

Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

It quite nicely sums up my feeling towards the subject.
 
 
robertrosen
21:45 / 06.09.05
Comments on the following please:

This was sent to my AOL address, unsolicited from Perry Marshall.

Where did the Universe come from?

100 years ago this year, Albert Einstein published
3 papers that rocked the world. These papers
proved the existence of the atom, introduced the
theory of relativity, and described quantum
mechanics. His equations for relativity indicated that the universe was expanding. This bothered him, because if it was
expanding, it must have had a beginning and a beginner.
Since neither of these appealed to him, Einstein introduced
a 'fudge factor' that ensured a 'steady state' universe,
one that had no beginning or end. But in 1929, Edwin Hubble showed that the furthest galaxies were fleeing away from each other, just as the Big Bang model predicted. So in 1931, Einstein embraced what would later be known as the Big Bang theory, saying,” This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation of creation to which I have ever listened." He referred to the 'fudge factor' to achieve a steady-state universe as the biggest blunder of his career.

Since this time, Einstein's theories have been thoroughly proved and verified by experiments and measurements. But there’s an even more important implication of Einstein's discovery. Not only does the universe have a beginning, but time itself, our own dimension of cause and effect, began
with the Big Bang. Time itself does not exist before
then. The very line of time begins with that creation
event. Matter, energy, time and space were created
in an instant by an intelligence outside of space
and time. About this intelligence, Albert Einstein wrote
in his book "The World As I See It" that the harmony
of natural law "Reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the
systematic thinking and acting of human beings is
an utterly insignificant reflection."

The Big Bang theory was totally rejected at first.
But those who supported it had predicted that the ignition
of the Big Bang would have left behind a sort of
'hot flash' of radiation. If a big black wood stove produces heat that you can feel, then in a similar manner, the Big Bang should produce its own kind of heat that would echo throughout the universe.

In 1965, without looking for it, two physicists at
Bell Labs in New Jersey found it. At first, Arno Penzias
and Robert Wilson were bothered because, while
trying to refine the world's most sensitive radio antenna,
they couldn't eliminate a bothersome source of noise.
They picked up this noise everywhere they pointed the
antenna. At first they thought it was bird droppings. The
antenna was so sensitive it could pick up the heat
of bird droppings (which certainly are warm when
they're brand new) but even after cleaning it off,
they still picked up this noise. Other astronomers had actually predicted this noise in detail, and after a year of checking and re-checking the data, they arrived at a conclusion: This crazy Big Bang theory really was correct. In an interview, Penzias was asked why there was so much resistance to the Big Bang theory. He said, "Most physicists would rather attempt to describe the universe in ways which require no explanation. And since science can't *explain* anything - it can only*describe* things - that's perfectly sensible. If you have a universe, which has always been there, you don’t explain it, right? "Somebody asks you, 'How come all the secretaries in your company are women?' You can say, 'Well, it's always been that way.' That's a way of not having to explain it. So in the same way, theories which don't require explanation tend to be the ones accepted by science, which is perfectly acceptable and the best way to make science work.” But on the older theory that the universe was eternal, he explains: "It turned out to be so ugly that people
dismissed it. What we find - the simplest theory - is
a creation out of nothing, the appearance out of nothing
of the universe."Penzias and his partner, Robert Wilson, won the Nobel Prize for their discovery of this radiation. The Big Bang theory is now one of the most thoroughly
validated theories in all of science.

Robert Wilson was asked by journalist Fred Heeren if
the Big Bang indicated a creator. Wilson said, "Certainly there was something that set it all off. Certainly, if you are religious, I can't think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match with Genesis."

In your kitchen cabinet, you've probably got a spray
bottle with an adjustable nozzle. If you twist the nozzle
one way, it sprays a fine mist into the air. You twist
the nozzle the other way, it squirts a jet of water
in a straight line. You turn that nozzle to the exact
position you want so you can wash a mirror, clean up
a spill, or whatever. If the universe had expanded a little faster, the matter would have sprayed out into space like fine mist from a water bottle - so fast that a gazillion
particles of dust would speed into infinity and never even
form a single star. If the universe had expanded just a little slower, the material would have dribbled out like big drops of water, then collapsed back where it came from by the force of gravity. A little too fast, and you get a meaningless spray of fine dust. A little too slow, and the whole universe collapses back into one big black hole. The surprising thing is just how narrow the difference
is. To strike the perfect balance between too fast and
too slow, the force, something that physicists call
"the Dark Energy Term" had to be accurate to one part in
ten with 120 zeros. If you wrote this as a decimal, the number would look like this:

0.000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000001

In their paper "Disturbing Implications of
a Cosmological Constant" two atheist scientists
from Stanford University stated that the existence of
this dark energy term "Would have required a miracle...
An external agent, external to space and time, intervened
in cosmic history for reasons of its own.” Just for comparison, the best human engineering example is the Gravity Wave Telescope, which was built with a precision of 23 zeros. The Designer, the 'external agent' that caused our universe must possess an intellect, knowledge, creativity and power trillions and trillions of times greater than we humans have.

Now a person who doesn't believe in God has to find
some way to explain this. One of the more common explanations seems to be "There was an infinite number of universes, so it was inevitable that things would have turned out right in at least one of them.” The "infinite universes" theory is truly an amazing theory.
Just think about it, if there is an infinite number of
universes, then absolutely everything is not only possible...It's actually happened! It means that somewhere, in some dimension, there is a universe where the Chicago Cubs won the World Series last year. There’s a universe where Jimmy Hoffa doesn't get cement shoes; instead he marries Joan Rivers and becomes President of the United States. There's even a universe where Elvis kicks his drug habit and still resides at Graceland and sings at concerts. Imagine the possibilities!

To believe an infinite number of universes made life possible by random chance is to believe everything just said, too. Some people believe in God with a capital G.and some folks believe in Chance with a Capital C.

See this email I just sent you, that you're reading
right now? This email is proof of the existence of God.
Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy. But I'm not asking you
to believe anything just yet, until you see the evidence for yourself. All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving while I show you my proof. It only takes a minute to convey, but it speaks to one of the most important questions of all time. So how is this email proof of the existence of God? This email you're reading contains letters, words and sentences. It contains a message that means something. As long as you can read English, you can understand what I'm saying. You can do all kinds of things with this email. You can read it on your computer screen. You can print it out on your printer. You can read it out loud to a friend who's in the same room as you are. You can call your friend and read it to her over the telephone. You can save it as a Microsoft WORD document. You can forward it to someone via email, or you can post it on a website. Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it, the information remains the same. My email contains a message. It contains information in the form of language. The message is independent of the medium it is sent in. Messages are not matter, even though they can be carried by matter (like printing this email on a piece of paper). Messages are not energy even though they can be carried by energy (like the sound of my voice.) Messages are immaterial. Information is itself a very unique kind of entity. It can be stored and transmitted and copied in many forms, but the meaning still stays the same. Messages can be in English, French or Chinese or Morse code or mating calls of birds or the Internet or radio or television or computer programs or architect blueprints or stone carvings. Every cell in your body contains a message encoded in DNA, representing a complete plan for you. OK, so what does this have to do with God? It's very simple. Messages, languages, and coded information ONLY come from a mind. A mind that agrees on an alphabet and a meaning of words and sentences. A mind that expresses both desire and intent. Whether I use the simplest possible explanation,
such as the one I'm giving you here, or if we analyze
language with advanced mathematics and engineering communication theory, I can say this with total confidence:
"Messages, languages and coded information never,
ever come from anything else besides a mind. No one has ever produced a single example of a message that did not come from a mind." Nature can create fascinating patterns -snowflakes, sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalactites, tornados and turbulence and cloud formations,
but non-living things cannot create language. They
*cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they
cannot talk. And they cannot create information.

It is believed by some that life on planet earth arose
naturally from the "primordial soup," the early ocean which produced enzymes and eventually RNA, DNA, and primitive cells. But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'DNA is not merely a molecule. Nor is it simply a "pattern.” Yes, it contains chemicals and proteins, but those chemicals re arranged to form an intricate language, in the exact same way that English and Chinese and HTML are languages. DNA has a four-letter alphabet, and structures very similar to words, sentences and paragraphs. With very precise instructions. To the person who says that life arose naturally, you need only ask: "Where did the information come from? Show me just ONE example of a language that didn't come from a mind."

As simple as this question is, I've personally presented it to many hundreds of people who say that life arose without the assistance of God. But to a person, none of them have ever been able to explain where the information came from. This riddle is "So simple any child can understand, yet so complex, no atheist can solve."

Matter and energy have to come from somewhere. Everyone
can agree on that. But information has to come from somewhere, too! Information is separate entity, fully on par with matter and energy. And information can only come from a mind. If books and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all living things inevitably came from superintelligence. Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read, every packet of information that zings across the Internet, is proof of the existence of God. Because information and language always originate in a mind. In the beginning were words and language. In the Beginning was Information.

When we consider the mystery of life - where it came
from and how it was possible - do we not at the same time
ask the question where it is going, and what its purpose is?

Today I introduce to you one of the most powerful
science presentations I have ever heard. I listened to Hugh Ross give this presentation on a tape while I was driving down Interstate 88 in Chicago one night. As I listened, light bulbs were firing off in my head all over the place. So what's the big deal about this? Here's what
you'll discover as you listen:

-The delicate balance of vast forces in the universe, necessary for life to exist
-Why planet earth is so extremely special in its ability
to support life
-The very measurement of the entire universe in all its
magnificence, made possible only within the last 15 years
-A fascinating place where science and theology come
together in perfect agreement

Now there's one more thing I want to tell you about
this talk: It was recorded in 1994.Now why would I give you something called "New Scientific Evidence" if it's 11 years old? Here's why: Because unlike most things 11 years old-with only a couple of exceptions, the information Hugh Ross shares here has been shown to be even *more* accurate today than it was back then. One of the hallmarks of a successful scientific model is that it holds up for years and even decades, even while scholars debate it. I’ve been following Dr. Ross and his work, and virtually every fact he discusses here has been further strengthened and validated by all the physics and astronomy discoveries in the years since.

On this link you'll find both the audio recording and
the printed transcript. You can read it online, print it out, listen on your computer, burn it to a CD, or download this to your MP3 player. Go here now:

http://www.CosmicFingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm

Enjoy.

Perry Marshall
 
 
astrojax69
22:17 / 06.09.05
from mr marshall's deep and penetrating dilemma:

But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'

have you considered, mr marshall, that this question is poorly asked? the information resides where it is, in the form it is, independent of our understanding of it. the brute fact of the universe existing - even ones where elvis marries joan rivers and she becomes president of the united states! - is simply a brute fact that it exists. now we, as organisms, have - as every living organism has to varying degrees of sophistication - the capacity to be aware of various modes of this universe's existence (we have five direct senses and then up to about eight more with things like proprioception, etc) and our brains have the capacity to map the outside world, reality, in such a way that we can not only make sense of it, find food, mates, shelter, avoid danger, etc but can (alone or among probably few creatures) also be aware of our *selves*.

that a myriad of languages exist for us to communicate our ideas and our information to one another is surely proof, no, of the fact that there is no one way to apprehend the universe, but the confluity of ideas that each language expresses is more likely a proof, or sorts, of the reality of that reality.

you question is not sensible. find me another proof of your god, mr marshall, and read some spinoza when you get a chance. This riddle is "So simple any child can understand, yet so complex, no atheist can solve." hrmph! ...smarmy git.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:11 / 07.09.05
Messages, languages, and coded information ONLY come from a mind.

Nope. Sorry. Wrong. It takes a mind to interpret things as 'messages, languages and coded information'. A dropped rope may appear to someone to coil into the form of a zero. That would not mean that it was dropped with the intention of forming a zero. It may not have been dropped by anyone at all either, a knot may have worked itself loose and it fell without any intelligent agency moving it.

It's a shame, because I liked the email up to that point...
 
 
skolld
14:01 / 17.09.05
Saw this today.
Nobel Laureates apparently wrote a letter to the head of Education in the U.S. condemning their upcoming curriculum change of calling Evolutionary theory "only a theory".
I can understand not wanting ID in the mix but this seems rather dogmatic on the part of the scientific community, of course this could just be the spin created in the article, does anyone else have a better link to possibly a less biased article.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:50 / 18.09.05
It doesn't look particularly dogmatic to me, skolld. Scientists have reached a professional opinion on which they are are almost all agreed. That could be due to some ideological bias (atheism or whatever) but the fact remains that they have reached such a consensus. Schools are, of course, free to teach biology where scientists opinions on evolution are given on the one hand dissenting opinion on the other.

However, that isn't good enough for ID campaigners who don't want to present themselves as anti-science, even though they cleary are.
 
 
robertrosen
19:09 / 21.09.05
Lurid Archive, putting ID aside, are you saying that a scientist can't believe in both evolution and God? I believe in evolution and also that God had his hand in it. Einstein believed in the big bang theory and thought that it proved the existence of a being with intelligence far superior to ours.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:26 / 21.09.05
No, I'm not saying that a scientist 'cannot' believe in a god or gods. Leaving aside Einstein, who is known to have said, "I do not believe in a personal God", it is clear that a significant minority of scientists are religious in some monotheistic sense.

I do think that science, and evolution in particular, makes it harder to take arguments by design very seriously. Start any religious discussion and someone will say, 'look at the world and its complexity. This can only be due to God'. Apart from the obvious logical gap (If complex things need to be created, who designed the designer?), a scientific view will tend to expose the fact that this isn't really an explanation at all. Its more an emotional expression - with lots to be said for it, for sure - but that embraces a certain kind of ignorance. So yeah, I think there is a tension.
 
 
robertrosen
22:31 / 21.09.05
Einstein did say he did not believe in a personal God, but his thoughts were a little more complicated:

The Big Bang
The idea that the universe had a specific time of origin has been philosophically resisted by some very distinguished scientists. We could begin with Arthur Eddington, who experimentally confirmed Einstein's general theory of relativity in 1919. He stated a dozen years later: "Philosophically, the notion of a beginning to the present order is repugnant to me and I should like to find a genuine loophole." He later said, "We must allow evolution an infinite amount of time to get started."

Albert Einstein's reaction to the consequences of his own general theory of relativity appear to acknowledge the threat of an encounter with God. Through the equations of general relativity, we can trace the origin of the universe backward in time to some sort of a beginning. However, before publishing his cosmological inferences, Einstein introduced a cosmological constant, a "fudge factor," to yield a static model for the universe. Einstein later considered this to be the greatest blunder of his scientific career.

Einstein ultimately gave grudging acceptance to what he called "the necessity for a beginning" and eventually to "the presence of a superior reasoning power." But he never did accept the reality of a personal God.
 
 
Lurid Archive
02:12 / 22.09.05
You are assuming that a definite beginning to the universe implies the existence of something we might recognisably call "God". But it doesn't.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:11 / 22.09.05
This spray bottle theory of the universe is assuming quite a lot isn't it? What it seems to suggest is that a Creator must exist because if the conditions were different at the moment of the Big Bang and in the subsequent period then life as we know it would never have arisen.

The trouble with this is it's assumption that life cannot arise in any form other than carbon-based DNA replicators. A different set of universal conditions could quite concievably give rise to an utterly alien form of life. We just happen to be living on a planet that carbon-based DNA replicators apparently thrive on (and even then we're only thriving on it in a narrow window of time cosmologically speaking).

A point about Creator theories that was raised up-thread was that any force complex enough to intentionally create life must, therefore, have been created by something else first. It fails to explain, without falling back on supernatural powers, how this Creator could exist without being created itself.

I have heard arguments by I.D. proponents that it doesn't matter what the Creator is, simply that we accept there must have been a Creator. But this Creator cannot have been God, who is without limit. So Christian belief kind of falls apart under harsh examination of Intelligent Design taken to an extreme.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:54 / 22.09.05
Surely the assumption is that life as we know it could not arise in any other form.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:33 / 22.09.05
Isn't that what I said?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:56 / 22.09.05
You know I had a point about your post earlier but I was in a hurry because I spent so much time making sure it was an accurate response. Now I can't remember the original point at all. That's what work does to you.
 
 
robertrosen
16:08 / 22.09.05
I know this is a wasted post, but what the hell. It really all comes down to FAITH. You either have it or you don't!

The Scriptures speak clearly to God’s eternal nature. Deuteronomy 33:27 speak of “the eternal God.” The psalmist referred to God as He who is “from everlasting to everlasting” (90:2). Isaiah observed that it is God Who inhabits eternity (57:15). In Psalm 102:24, the writer spoke of the Earth and heavens, and noted, “they shall perish, but thou shalt endure.... [T]hy years have no end.” God Himself told Moses, “I AM THAT I AM” (Exodus 3:14)—the formula for self-existence. God is the Eternal One Who always has existed, and Who always will exist. He lives in the ever-present. One may not describe God legitimately as a Being Who “has been” or “will be”; rather, He is described as without beginning or end, thereby precluding any “origin.” Likewise, He has no destiny. How, then, can one ask the question, “Where did God come from?” It is—in the truest sense of the word—a nonsensical question. It is right and proper to inquire regarding the origin of matter/energy (or any other temporal, non-eternal entity), because such entities do, in fact, have origins. But one cannot inquire logically regarding the origin of an entity that is defined as eternal, for such a question is meaningless. Granted, finite minds struggle to understand completely the infinite. But that is why God gave us His Word. If we “rightly divide the word of truth,” we will find that it contains “all things that pertain unto life and godliness” (2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Peter 1:3).
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:11 / 22.09.05
Sure, and thats fine for you robertrosen. But it does mean that your questions about the nature of the universe suggesting an intelligence are really based on the assumption that you have the answer which is beyond scrutiny.

I'd only suggest that if you want others, me for instance, to adopt faith you should argue for faith, rather than making a rational argument which is really just oppurtunistic. It won't work, of course, but it'll be more honest....
 
  

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