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Intelligent Design and Evolution. How do you decide?

 
  

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Atyeo
13:47 / 03.08.05
I have no problem with a belief that there may be a God, however, that isn't what ID is specifically about. ID proposes that it is an alternative to evolution, which is plainly wrong in my book.

Debating whether the universe was created by some superior entity is an entirely different arguement.
 
 
robertrosen
17:18 / 03.08.05
Did man evolve from a monkey, who evolved from a reptile, who evolved from a fish, who evolved from a blob of protoplasm, who evolved from one single cell from which all life has subsequently evolved? Or did God create man?

I have always wondered-why not both? Why can't it be that living beings have changed over time but that they have changed under the direction of a superior being?

As a Christian, I am of course biased on this matter. However, I do not see how someone can accept that life has evolved in the way that it has without guidance. If you put all of the parts of the car into a box unassembled and shake the box for six billion years, will you get a car? Of course not. You will get a box of parts. Nature, from the intricacies of a large ecosystem down to the biological functions of the smallest cell, is perfectly assembled. That sort of perfection does not occur by chance. It's one of many ways that we can unmistakably see God here among us.
 
 
jeed
19:15 / 03.08.05
Like Atyeo, I've got no problem with the idea of a God/higher power/whatever, but arguments like robertrosen's just don't hold water. Faith is fine and I'm not going to tell you you're wrong in that, but it's when intelligent design advocates try and use science to prop up their beliefs when problems arise.

The car parts analogy is pretty faulty, as you're not looking at a stack of random parts when you look at abiogenesis (formation of life), you're looking at molecules and structures that inherently tend towards organisation, and have done since before life existed. The fact that we had the conditions here for life to forms is more than likely a fluke, and there are probably billions of planets where this didn't happen.

I also find the 'everything has it's place' argument for evidence of ID to be a little confusing, as a process of classical Darwinian evolution over billions of years would have created the same result.

I'm fully aware that there is debate amogst evolutionary biologists about some of the nuts and bolts, but where the ID crew fall down is in their insistence that either debate amongst scientists about the theories, or a perceived flaw in the theory, is automatically evidence for intelligent design.

I can pop a few other bubbles of ID if need be, irreducible complexity etc., but this is turning into a bit of a rant already, so i'll let someone else take over.
 
 
Atyeo
20:12 / 03.08.05
The car analogy is wrong. So wrong. It is why 99.9% of scientists do not take IDers argements seriously because of this pseudo-science. This sort of arguement was persuasive before Darwin but that is no longer the case.

Let's get one thing clear:

Evolution is not a random process

There is a driving force, an adaptability, towards a system that can survive in an environment. That is what "survival of the fittest" means. No one is suggesting that humans appeared from nowhere, fully intact with all their functions, which is what you are suggesting with your car analogy.

To me, it seems inconceivable to understand the Theory of Evolution, have knowledge of DNA and hereditary and to not believe in Darwin's Theory.
 
 
robertrosen
21:13 / 03.08.05
jd,Atyeo,I agree the anology was off base.

Unlike traditional creationists, the proponents of intelligent design don't argue with evolution's eon-spanning time frame. Nor do they deny Darwin's observations about change over time. Their basic point is that a guiding intelligence, instead of natural selection, better explains some of those changes and the intricacies of such structures as cells.

But are these ideas a valid scientific theory warranting equal time in biology classes?

At this juncture, the answer is probably "yes."

The theory of evolution should not be exempt from criticism, doubt, or even revision. That, after all, is part of the scientific method. Intelligent design offers a critique of evolution which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Analysis that seeks cause only in matter can't explain all the turns of life on earth. On the other hand, the proponents of design will run into unintelligent outcomes like genetic dead-ends and disease. Science teachers should be free to bring up these contrasting approaches and probe the controversy they generate.

Obviously, my personal experience with God strongly influences my thought process while the logical analytical part of my thinking pulls me in other directions. I am torn!
 
 
Atyeo
23:56 / 03.08.05
Why should the two theories be taught?

There are still people that believe in a flat Earth. Should that be taught in school as an 'alternative' theory?

Where do you draw the line?

Evolution is one of the most robust theories in any area of science where ID is a religious theory and should be taught in Religious Education.
 
 
jeed
06:32 / 04.08.05
Well..the analogy was off-base, but it's one commonly used by ID proponents, so it's nice to be able to answer it.

The point is that ID isn't really a valid scientific theory, it's a philosophical theory and should be debated as such. It's unprovable via the scientific method as it's (as mentioned above), unfalsifiable. And the theories themselves aren't immune to debate, which is ongoing in the scientific community. The problem is, as I said above, debate about or issues with the nuts and bolts of Darwinism do not automatically make Intelligent Design the default argument to explain what the current theory does not.

The fact that around 95% of scientists in all fields, and about 99.8% in biological sciences believe evolution to be the best model as yet for the development of life as we see it means that no, intelligent design shouldn't be taught as part of the science syllabus(and natural selection is only a part of evolutionary theory, by the way). If you want to teach it in Theology/Philosophy then go right ahead, but to teach a theory that is so firmly resisted by scientists for scientific, not religious/atheistic reasons would be to do the subject a great disservice. Quantum physics wasn't taught for years after it became a relatively accepted theory, until the scientific paradigm shifted. If a similar shift occurs with intelligent design amongst scientists, then in my view it would become acceptable to teach it. Otherwise, it's another crank theory that ranks with Scientology in it's understanding of the world.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:53 / 04.08.05
ID is certainly a valid philosophical theory, but I'd hesitate to call a scientific one. For that to be the case I'd require a lot more empirical evidence than a few statistics.

I'm certainly not denying that life does seem to be an extremely improbable phenomena, within our solar system certainly. But improbable things do happen on a regular basis. As I've stated in other threads, I'm an atheist personally, but I do not discount the possibility of a higher power. It's just there is currently no convincing evidence (from my POV) of such a power at work.

Respect to you robertrosen, by the way, it's nice to have someone on the opposite side of this debate to chat to.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:45 / 04.08.05
Robertrosen- To answer the question in your first post- 'Why can't it be both?', the problem, as it appears to little old atheist me, is that most pro-Creationism/ID types aren't as accomodating, it's Creationism all the way down and that's the literal truth. So while I may say "Hey, doesn't the start of Genesis describe by allegory exactly what the scientists say is the start, a big bang?" they reply "No, they are completely different, there was no great explosion, a voice said 'let there be light' and the whole place lit up'." Considering that His son spent most of his time speaking in parables and allegories they seem to be remarkably unopen to the idea that His other prophets were also not speaking the literal truth.
 
 
robertrosen
20:19 / 04.08.05
Thanks for the kind word Evil Scientist.

Century Lady, faith is sometimes used to fill the gap where intelligence and or education are lacking. This is one of the negative aspects of an unconditional behavior.

The Bible should not be taken Literally. Is it not possible that the Big Bang was God creating the universe, winding up the mechanism on the big watch, starting the process in motion?

I believe there is more than enough history and science to begin teaching some form of Intelligent Design in our schools. I care not where these ideas/concepts are brought forth. Let me present just one scientific theory for anyone interested. Please go to this site and read:

link

I know that just the mention of the word God creates a discomfort in many. I understand. Believe me I do. It is difficult to defend a position that one cannot logically and scientifically validate and yet I will continue to attempt to do so. I'm sure this sounds irrational. It comes from a deep love for my God. It comes from knowing without having any proof. It comes from jumping into the abyss without fear, knowing He is there to catch me. Irrational, scary, insane, I know these thoughts come to mind, but until you allow yourself to feel what its like be touched by the Hand of God, you will not understand. Protected and blessed you will still be! All I ask is that you do not ridicule me for believing in something you cannot feel. God has touched so many. So many have had their prayers answered. It is only natural, for most, in order to feel in balance with nature, to fill a vacuum, to accept Him. God is at his strongest when we are at our weakest. He fills the vacuum in our very souls. Forgive me for preaching! You are surely entitled to fell and believe whatever you prefer and I will defend your right to do so as well.

God bless you all, whether you believe or not. Forgive me if I offend. It is only out of love that I have asked.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:41 / 04.08.05
So, robertrosen, I think the crucial passage in your link is this one:

In living cells, proteins are the "machines of life," which build the structures and facilitate (catalyze) the chemical reactions used by all life. Proteins are called "informational" molecules, because they each perform a "function" in living things (such as oxygen-transport by hemoglobin), and they are non-repetitively complex, and the sequential order of the building blocks (amino acids) of protein are highly specified ---so that if the proper sequence is changed much at all, function is lost.

Going further in our proof: There are no known laws (or properties) of physics or chemistry in nature, which would have been sufficient, by themselves, to originally dictate the sequential order of the amino acids in functional classes of proteins adequate to sustain life (so far as anyone has been able to reasonably conceive life). Similarly, there are no known laws (or properties) of physics of chemistry which could have originally dictated the sequential order of the nucleotides in the DNA required for the first life (and to build those first proteins of life) ---although, again, as scientists we must always remain open to the possibility that it may be demonstrated that there is a series of natural events in nature (unaided by intelligent design) which would accomplish the origination of all 20 required amino acids along with the sequential ordering of them to construct the proteins (&/or the DNA) required for life. Any scientific approach must be able to be negated, and this is the way that this "proof" is able to be negated. (See my article on Abiogenesis)


To which (I realise this is unsatisfactory in a way) I throw back this link, from the ever reliable TalkOrigins.

Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors.

Problems with the creationists' "it's so improbable" calculations

1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.

2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life.

3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials.

4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.

5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.


But I think there are two important points to make here. One, is that much of creationist argument is really argument from ignorance. Whenever we don't understand something about life - I can forsee that this will be a siutation that never ends, although the things we don't understand may change - the explanation is "god". I mean, I swear I had an extra fiver in my pocket yesterday...so obviously, the almighty creator took it. Makes sense.

Second, you really have to buy into an enormous conspiracy theory to believe that scientists are almost unanimously supporting evolution (I realise that this is actually becoming increasingly common, but I think the point still stands).
 
 
robertrosen
00:52 / 05.08.05
So Lurid Archive, we agree that God is used as a substitute for ignorance. We agree that my position cannot be defended and yet I have no choice but to do so.

So it would seem that our universe is a vast purposeless place in which we can see no evidence of a point for ourselves as human beings.

This is not true! The universe is full of meaning and purpose. Science certainly has many great achievements, but it isn't necessarily the field, which can show us the point of either our own lives or that of the universe as a whole. The entire human experience tells us that there is a point, that there is meaningfulness to things. Not long ago my best friend past. When I held his hand I could see his expression of hope and joy. Right before he closed his eyes forever I could see that there is meaning and purpose to existence and that it goes beyond any scientific investigation.

This debate will go on as long as intelligent life exists. I appreciate your viewpoint and understand your position. I respectfully and ignorantly disagree with it. If having faith is ignorant, I am and will forever be ignorant and proud of it.

Thank you for your excellent and honest response.

God bless!
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:01 / 05.08.05
I would respectfully suggest that we don't need supernatural beings to give meaning to the universe. We give meaning to it. The sentience that our species has developed allows us to understand and appreciate this wonderful system on a level that nothing we know of can.

The universe is not meaningless whilst sentient life is in it.

As I repeatedly say, a good scientist shouldn't discount the possibility of God. But some of us are a bit like the Devil in that we require proof rather than relying on faith. Of course, there are plenty of scientists (one e.g. is my brother) who comfortably reconcile science and faith.
 
 
Atyeo
09:46 / 05.08.05
I'm sorry to hear about your friend Robert and am glad that your faith has helped you through this time.

I always find it compelling talking with a religious individual who says that they feel God is with them all the time. I lived with a couple of fundamentalists at University and when the inevitable drunken conversations began they always defaulted to the arguement, "I can feel God is with me and so whatever you say, whatever logical arguement you have, I will always know that God exists".

However, I feel that this line of thought lacks any objectivity. Do you think that you could believe something that is false? Have you ever forgotten something or believed that you'd done or said something to find out later that you were mistaken? I'm sure the answer to that is "yes". Every human being is fallible because the human brain is imperfect. This is why the Scientific Method is such an amazing invention. There is no place for subjectivity with the method and so you can remove yourself with all of imperfections out of the equation (so to speak).

Check out the following link to see a more indepth short scientific essay on why God could be an illusion created by your brain.

God on the Brain
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
19:03 / 05.08.05
I wrote a paper this past year on the 20th century history of the Evolution/Creation debate in American schools. I came away agreeing with the poster claiming that this is largely an ideological battle.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
19:04 / 05.08.05
To clarify my previous comment, the battles over what should be taught in school are ideological, not necassarily what goes on in laboratories themselves.
 
 
skolld
19:13 / 05.08.05
I wonder what's next if we allow ID into science class, perhaps we teach Faith healing in medical school?
Even though i believe in Christ i recognise that science is science. If people want to debunk evolutionary theory it is much more appopriate to use the method by which we came up with the theory. There are plenty of holes in the theory that could easily be talked about without bringing in creationism. To me they're two concepts that have little relevance to eachother.
Science is a relatively young field and who knows, maybe with enough time they'll figure it all out, but science is about teaching the 'scientific method', not philosophy or religion. This is one of those many times when the Christian right really needs to take a step back and stop muckn' stuff up.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
08:25 / 06.08.05
There is a third option...

Intelligent Designer

Which is more rational than invoking God/Allah

s
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:55 / 06.08.05
I feel that I have been touched by his noodly appendage. Also sad to see that the number of pirates has reduced so drastically.
 
 
robertrosen
16:33 / 08.08.05
Sdv, quite funny (Flying Spaghetti Monster)! I like it.

Regardless of the reasons why, let us look at some reality. The # 1 all time best selling book is? The most studied book is? People of all faith as a % of people with no religious faith? The influence that faith in the Spaghetti Monster had on the last Presidential Election vs. faith in Judeo-Christian God?

As I said previously, I care not under what heading we teach the option. I only care that it is presented for open discussion, Spaghetti Monster included!

SDV, I understand how difficult it is for super intelligent human beings, most likely less needy than most, to be in a position to reach out to God. Strong, intelligent, gifted, educated, healthy and yet they cannot see what is so clear to me. Maybe I am just the opposite of all those things. I know not. Ignorance is bliss!

I care not, as long as we all do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than ourselves; do not merely look out for our own personal interests, but also for the interests of others, then the truth about God and the Flying Spaghetti Monster will come out!

God Bless!
 
 
Henningjohnathan
17:33 / 08.08.05
I'm sure we've all considered the "stupid design" theory as well. The fact that the "spaghetti code" of DNA, filled with genetic material that has no function, actually indicates the lack of an overseeing designer in the formation of life AND the development of the idea of emergence in the universe that shows that complexity more often results from the interaction between very simple behaviors or functions rather than intelligent supervision.

The very scientific methods that ID proponents (you can't really call them theorists because there is nothing there that could be called a theory) use to support their ideas, actually tend to support the opposing viewpoint. For example, the use of cryptographic methods to determine intelligent origins of signals only works because there is a vast non-intelligent background used to discern intelligents signals. If the entire universe was the result of intelligent design, then every signal would show evidence of this - there would be no background noise.

However, I am intrigued by Tipler's theory of the ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE to the universe. I think that it is at least a little more imaginative if no more viable than ID. Also, I think that if the universe was designed in the same way that a programmer creates software or simulations, then it would be nigh impossible to discern that because how would you scientifically differentiate between a "divine" and natural occurance?

The problem with ID is not that it proposes some kind of intelligent creator but that teaches poor reasoning and what people need to learn from science is not theories or suppositions, but the basic skills in how to reason and learn for themselves.
 
 
Atyeo
08:41 / 09.08.05
The #2 best-selling book of all time was Mao's Little Red Book.

What are the chances of getting his theories taught in US schools?
 
 
robertrosen
14:36 / 09.08.05
Mao's great contribution to the development of China cannot be denied. His military philosophy and literary talents still influence Chinese society. With the ever- increasing influence China has on U.S and world today, Mao's book should be taught in our schools as required reading!

Sorry for straying here!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:50 / 10.08.05
robertrosen So Lurid Archive, we agree that God is used as a substitute for ignorance. We agree that my position cannot be defended and yet I have no choice but to do so.

So it would seem that our universe is a vast purposeless place in which we can see no evidence of a point for ourselves as human beings.


How would the non-existence of God mean that the universe has no purpose or that there is no point for why humans exist? Your third sentence does not logically follow on from your first and second. Don't you think that if faith was needed for people to have a purpose then atheism would have died out hundreds of years ago?
 
 
robertrosen
16:09 / 10.08.05
Century Lady, The process of evolution is wholly natural in its operation. This natural process achieves the aspect of purpose without the intervention of a purposer; and it has produced a vast plan without the concurrent action of a planner. It may be that the initiation of the process and the physical laws under which it functions had a purpose and that this mechanistic way of achieving a plan is the instrument of a Planner - of this still deeper problem the scientist, as scientist, cannot speak.

Science is silent on the issue of ultimate purpose, an issue that lies outside the realm of scientific inquiry. This means that biological evolution, correctly understood, does not make the claim of purposelessness. It does not address the "deeper problem," leaving that problem, quite properly, to the realm of faith.

It seems to me that most of modern science has either forgotten or deliberately excluded God. This makes me sad. To me Science cannot exist without faith. Whereas the scientist of old had faith in an omniscient God, the modern scientist has little more than faith in himself.
Because he is himself a creature made in the image of God he is still able to be creative as God is; but what he cannot possibly understand now is the origin of all things, because what he once knew he now denies. So sad!!!!

The duality of nature explains that for good to exist we must have evil, for faith to exixt we must have the choice of faithlessness. Atheism will remain as long as we have choice.
 
 
Proinsias
01:27 / 11.08.05
Not sure if this is for or against ID but is it at all possible that the intelligence behind our design, if any, was not the traditional monotheistic god but just another sentient form and that maybe we aren't the jewel in the crown just another another branch of intelligently driven evolution - previous intelligence being a little quicker to evolve helps given the few billion years so far
 
 
jeed
11:25 / 11.08.05
Before I kick off, I just want to make clear that I'm not laying into anyone's personal beliefs, i'm laying into the idea that they should be taught as science.

It may be that the initiation of the process and the physical laws under which it functions had a purpose and that this mechanistic way of achieving a plan is the instrument of a Planner - of this still deeper problem the scientist, as scientist, cannot speak.

I think this is the point "it MAYbe..." it also may be the noodlings of the spaghetti monster, but the issue isn't about personal faith, the issue is that people are trying to pass personal faith off as hard science in schools.

Science is silent on the issue of ultimate purpose, an issue that lies outside the realm of scientific inquiry. This means that biological evolution, correctly understood, does not make the claim of purposelessness. It does not address the "deeper problem," leaving that problem, quite properly, to the realm of faith.

It seems to me that most of modern science has either forgotten or deliberately excluded God. This makes me sad. To me Science cannot exist without faith. Whereas the scientist of old had faith in an omniscient God, the modern scientist has little more than faith in himself.

The modern scientist faith in hir skills, sure, but also faith in what has gone before, and hir ability to add to that body of knowledge to try and make sense of the physical world around hir. To achieve this, modern science has excluded God from its workings, as the investigative nature of science would fall apart if it was decided that a particular unsolvable problem was 'part of God's plan, not for us to understand', instead of 'we'll come back to that, can't tackle it yet for want of knowledge/techniques'. Science tends not to call anything either way that can't be tested. This distinguishing of observation from opinion is the crux of science as I see it.

The duality of nature explains that for good to exist we must have evil, for faith to exixt we must have the choice of faithlessness. Atheism will remain as long as we have choice.

What duality? Is this a hangover of that old cartesian chesnut regarding separation between mind and body? The existence of good and evil as hard and fast entities as opposed to human contructs? I'm not sure whether they exist, but that's a discussion for the headshop i think...

Is atheism lack of faith, or is it faith in the non-existence of God? I think they're different.

I'm just having trouble understanding why ID/creationism should be taught in science, being a 'rational alternative' to evolution, where it has no rational scientific basis. If you want to teach it in science lessons, can we have other faith-based creation stories as well, maybe aboriginal/native american/sumerian/spaghettimonsters? Massive snakes, floods and stuff...the usual.
 
 
robertrosen
16:14 / 11.08.05
jd, as I've stated previously, I have no problem with teaching the ID alternative outside the Science arena. In fact, I don't believe it belongs there. My point is that it needs to be presented and taught. A recent Harris poll conducted in June showed that 55% of 1,000 adults surveyed said children should be taught creationism and intelligent design along with evolution in public schools. The same poll found that 54% did not believe humans had developed from an earlier species-up from 45% with that view in 1994-although other polls have not detected this rise.

New laws that, in some sense challenge the teaching of evolution, are pending or have been considered in 20 states, in the U.S., including such liberal bastions as Michigan and New York.

Supporters of ID and Creationism are attempting to use Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's dissenting opinion from a 1987 case in an attempt to discredit Darwin's theory and insert the influence of God into the equation.

I understand but strongly disagree with this tactic.

All I want accomplished is the ability for students to understand all the pertinent issues of our time. To be given the opportunity to hear all sides and to debate the issues. Evolution, whether 100% correct or not, should be critically analyzed, the gaps further studied and debated. This can be done, and should be done outside the "scientific arena". What is so terrible about allowing others to have a choice in believing something that requires only faith and not scientific proof?

I know that evolution is the only intelligent answer to the origin of complex life, but I still believe that God is necessary to give life meaning and to justify morality. I know that others would disagree and say that morality comes from a commitment to treat others as we wish to be treated, which follows from the realization that none of us is the sole occupant of this universe. I understand and I respect their thinking and their opinions. I just happen to believe, in my heart and soul, differently. Science's tools will never prove or disprove God's existence. For me the fundamental answers about the meaning of life come not from science, but from the consideration of the origins of our uniquely human sense of right and wrong, and from the historical record of Christ's life on Earth. Again, if this offends anyone, this was not my intent.

Many people on this earth feel as I do. Others can try to place them in a category of lesser intelligence, and attempt to dictate and mandate what they consider to be their superior position. This approach will only strengthen our resolve. This is not about intelligence. I believe it’s about human nature, choice, balance and the super natural forces of spirituality. Yes, this is not a science; God cannot be proven or disproved. Teach this not as science, but teach it we must!!!!!!
 
 
Henningjohnathan
21:49 / 11.08.05
Now, you have to admit that your argument defies reason. First, there are plenty of people who believe in god and call themselves christians who are also some of the most immoral people on the planet (just look at the u.s. government). And, conversely, there are many atheists and non-christians who behave in a moral manner that would make Gandhi look bad. So, teaching the idea that there is a god or that the universe was created lends no more moral encouragement to any student than simply teaching science without touching on the poor reasoning of the pseudosciences like ID, Creationism or the belief in prehistoric Space Gods which has just as much credible evidence to support it.

The idea of teaching Intelligent Design and Creationism as somehow "not science" is also quite a strange proposal. The proponents of both certainly promote it as science, so how could they teach it otherwise? Basically, you're suggesting that we put religious (and presumably Christian) instruction into public schools. That ID and faulty reasoning should simply be accepted as part of our education system.

Ironically, you may not be able to prove or disprove the existence of God, but using the same reasoning found in Intelligent Design, one could disprove the existence of your God and prove such controversial ideas as Divine fallibility. Once you allow God to be the subject of science, then you are opening up a very large can of worms.
 
 
robertrosen
00:00 / 12.08.05


OPEN THE CAN!!!!!!!!

1) I don't want God as the subject of science.

2) The idea to teach as a science is an attempt to circumvent separation of Church and State.

3) Do you truly believe that the Bible and other historical literature are on par with the historical proof of Space Gods? You give no credence to the Old and or the New Testament? You believe these books all comes from fear and doubt and ignorance? Have you read the Bible?
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:21 / 12.08.05
Robertrosen, there's an equal amount of evidence (ie ancient texts) for plenty of religions in the world other than those that use the bible as a basis. Most of them have differing opinions on the creation of the world. Arguably, by it's very nature, religion should be able to exist with no evidence whatsoever as it is based in faith rather than proof.

To an atheist such as myself, those who follow a space god belief system have as much legitimacy as those who worship a monotheistic deity developed by nomadic middle eastern tribes.

I have no problem with the Christian philosophy, especially if you try to follow the teachings of Jesus as closely as possible. I do have a problem with those who try to follow Old Testament teachings as the primary rules. Christ's teachings were of forgiveness, passive resistence to evil, and charity. Most of his teaching seem to directly contravene the harsh edicts given in the O.T.

Science is not trying to destroy God, or religion. There is no big conspiracy of lab-coated professors working to discredit the idea of the Christian faith. But as people gain knowledge of how the world works, it is natural for them to question. Religion doesn't seem to be able to provide satisfactory answers. So perhaps that's the reason we percieve science as being the reason people are becoming less and less spiritual.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:02 / 12.08.05
robertrosen Do you truly believe that the Bible and other historical literature are on par with the historical proof of Space Gods?

Well, depending on what you mean by 'on par', sure.

You give no credence to the Old and or the New Testament?

Not really, no.

You believe these books all comes from fear and doubt and ignorance?

Well, ignorance certainly.

Have you read the Bible?

Yep. Needs a good editor.

I would suggest that of you want to have the discussion about whether Christianity is Teh Truth or not then you really need to start that as a new thread in the Head Shop as it's rather going away from the remit of this thread or this forum....
 
 
Henningjohnathan
13:48 / 12.08.05
The idea of space gods actually has more credence than the bible since there actually are unexplained artifacts revealing evidence of a world-wide civilization that dates back to 40,000 years ago.

However, the idea that the bible provides any real moral guidance is quite suspect. The old testament is a chronicle of a tribe that often performs the worst most malicious acts to protect its genetic line, and a God that, despite being omniscient, can't quite understand his own creation. The New Testament tells the story of cult leader who expects his followers to abandon their wives and disown their families for love of him, gets as mad as a two-year-old when they don't understand his indecipherable parables, and even goes so far as to condemn a fig tree TO DEATH when it doesn't bear any figs. And we haven't even gotten to the insane horror movie that is the Book of Revalations.

Have you read the bible?
 
 
Axolotl
14:18 / 12.08.05
I think this is getting away from the original thread topic. The debate isn't about whether a particular religion is true or a positive influence, it's about religion trying to force its way into the classroom under the guise of science.
The problem I have with ID is that the argument for ID seems to be that life is so complex it couldn't have arisen out of nothing. Therefore it must have had a designer. But surely the designer is even more complex, and therefore according to ID, couldn't have arisen from nothing. ID seems to place some arbitrary cut off there, making it an article of faith that this designer could arise from nothing, while life couldn't. This obviously doesn't stand up to rigorous scientific thinking and can't be considered a viable theory.
Religion can have a positive effect and has provided hope, comfort and meaning to a great many people, however this doesn't mean it has anything to tell us in the field of the physical sciences. It doesn't tell us how a car works, what will happen when two chemicals react or how life came about.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
15:16 / 12.08.05
The debate is mutating because it is very hard for religious people in America to accept that there is no scientific evidence at all, and no real scientific method, to support the creation of the world as described in Genesis. I think 45% of Americans believe God created the world less than 10,000 years ago. So, it's hard for a scientist to say that anything is several million years old without by accident defying their religious belief.
Even if it's bad science, ID and creationism fits their belief, so a large portion of Americans are going to support it and these people control our education system.

That is what is really unfortunate. Adherance to religious dogma may cripple the education systems in the places (the American South) where education needs to improve drastically to remain competative with the rest of the world. Jobs aren't leaving the US simply because labor is cheaper overseas. The labor is often more skilled as too many people in the US aren't smart enough to work in modern factory.
 
  

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