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Intelligent Design and Evolution. How do you decide?

 
  

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Lurid Archive
13:14 / 16.04.04
One of the current scientific debates that fascinates me is the one about evolution. To be entirely upfront, I should say that I don't think it is so much of a debate as an ideological struggle between science and perhaps secularism with religion, and in particular some forms of christianity.

I suppose the sharp end of the debate is in the US school system that continues despite the Scopes trial. Kansas and more recently Ohio provided battle grounds for the proponents of Intelligent Design, which bills itself as an alternative to evolution which is non-committal on religion. As I understand, this is an ongoing battle throught the US. I think it is a fairly blatant front for asserting the supremacy of religion, and primarily christianity, but then I *am* an atheist.

Anyway, a lot gets written in this debate, with denunciations from both sides about the behaviour of the other. A conspiracy to suppress research by respected scientists or an intellectually dishonest power play?

Evolution, it should be said, is supported by the vast majority of scientists, though the conclusion you draw from that is far from clear. In any case, ID supporters can fall back on Behe, with his black box and irreducible complexity or Dembski and his Law of Conservation of Information.

Of course, one can exchange links all day. Intelligent Design? No, Evolution! Evolution? No, Intelligent Design!

Ad nauseam.

I've been reading and debating about it for years now and I've learnt a lot. I still don't know anything like as much as I should about the debate and the relevant facts, but I still have a firm opinion. And this seems pretty common. Its a difficult subject and most people aren't evolutionary biologists. I have some friends who say it is ridiculous to suppose a conspiracy of biologists and other friends who say that anti-religion is clearly the motivating factor behind Neo-Darwinism.


I guess I want to know, what do you think? And why? Is this just a case of dogma versus dogma? With scientists and atheists not able to admit that their position is as much a faith position as anyone else's?
 
 
Hieronymus
14:22 / 16.04.04
Last night I had a conversation with someone online about more or less this very topic. And when he pressed the question of the Big Bang (which is irrefutable given the evidence) or more specifically what came before or created the singularity, I have to admit he had a valid point in asking how that singularity came into being more or less ex nihilo. 'Everything has to come from something' the advocates usually counter. Nevermind that that same standard can also be applied to a 'God'.

Round and round the carousel goes.

But... my greatest issue with ID theory is that it's been purloined into a wedging apparatus by the evangelistic/creationist crowd. Stripped of that, it might have validity except that there's no clear set of fingerprints as to who the intelligent designer is. A void that most fundamentalist Christians are a little too happy to fill for everyone. It's a very tricky and snaring position depending on who is advocating it and what agenda they have behind it.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
14:33 / 16.04.04
I look at the scientific evidence, and I cannot deny that evolution happens. I do believe in a prime motivator behind the universe. Something had to start the ball rolling. Matter does not spontaneously change. Some force had to act on it to start the big bang. That force is what I label the prime motivator. Whether it is intelligent and has a plan for your life or not, is what I cannot prove.
 
 
Lionheart
17:07 / 16.04.04
From what I understand the Big Bang isn't "irrefutable". But that's a whole other thread.

I don't think that evolution and intelligent design are mutually exclusive. I mean, I can prove to you right now that "intelligent design" exists.

*elaboratly waves his hands around as if he is some sort of uber-mage*

Dogs, cats, and plants. We (hu-mans) have interbred different species of dogs, cats, and plants in order to emphasize certain qualities and in order to get rid of qualities undesirable to us. That, by definition, is "intelligent design".

What's my point? That both evolution and intelligent design (I don't know why I put that in quotes sometimes) can coexist and they do coexist.

Now a more personal idea of mine: What if some species evolves to a point where their subconcious mind affects their genetics? Wouldn't that be intelligent design?

Also, has biology been updated with modern physics concepts? How does non-locality affect biological beings? Are questions like that being asked nowadays?
 
 
SiliconDream
20:10 / 16.04.04
I consider the issue of whether or not evolution is intelligently guided to be a matter of faith; there are plenty of theistic evolutionary biologists. However, ID argues that the evidence forces you to believe it's intelligently guided, and that I think is incorrect.

"It" here, of course, excludes the known examples of intelligent design like glowing transgenic mice and the like. But, Lionheart, I would argue that most examples of domestication don't fall under this category. When you breed for a big dog, say, you usually do it by letting only the largest dogs out of each litter go on to reproduce themselves. So you change the selection pressures, but you don't go in and tinker with the dog genome yourself; you let the processes of natural selection do it for you. The fact that it works is experimental support for Neo-Darwinism, not ID.

ID, on the other hand, says that simple selection pressure acting on variation and random mutation isn't enough to produce various biological phenomena; rather someone must have actually gone in and designed the critter from the DNA up to get the desired effect. So an example of valid ID reasoning would be to find a glowing transgenic mouse and say, "Well, I have no idea how this mouse developed a mutation so complex and mirroring a chunk of photobacterial DNA so precisely, and if it arose it ought to be selected against, and I happen to know that the nearby species of Homo sapiens includes a bunch of geneticists. So humans probably did it."
 
 
SMS
22:34 / 16.04.04
Also, has biology been updated with modern physics concepts? How does non-locality affect biological beings? Are questions like that being asked nowadays?

I know some people will ask them, but I don't think that subatomic physics can be linked to macroscopic (genes, for instance) biology. This isn't to say that the laws of particle physics don't hold in macroscopic systems, just that they don't shed much light on them.

I decide between evolution and any other empirically scientific theory based on the testimony given to me by scientists. I have to assume that, even if they are somewhat biased, they have enough intellectual integrity and honesty to admit when empirical evidence has proven their theory to be false.

It is because of this that I reject intelligent design as an empirically scientific theory. According to this testimony, the laws of probability predict that some very improbable beings will result from evolutionary processes. When intelligent design theorists point to the complexity of humanity as evidence that there must have been a creator, they ignore these probabilistic laws.

But I still believe this does not preclude the possibility of a non-empirical intelligent design. This is possible if God is transcendent to space and time. If this were the case, then no physics or biology could ever discover his existence, nor could they find any evidence for his influence on the universe (as creator or anything else). Many agnostics argue that this means we cannot possibly know if God exists, but implicit in that claim is that empirical science is the only source of knowledge we have. Denying this is not a scientific question, though, and is best left to the Head Shop.
 
 
grant
00:26 / 18.04.04

1. Also, has biology been updated with modern physics concepts? How does non-locality affect biological beings? Are questions like that being asked nowadays?

I know there was a post somewhere in here about a researcher who's putting forward the idea that consciousness can be explained as some sort of quantum computing thing. Like, our brains are actually functioning as quantum computers, and (I might be misremembering this part) surrounded by a cloud of n-dimensional particles/energies.

2. You could have a lot of fun bandying about Intelligent Design ideas over at Cross and Flame. I'd actually recommend the Christianity.com boards, but they recently shut down the science forum. Too many actual scientists butting in and saying, "Hey, just cuz you think evolution is A-OK don't mean you're like destined for hellfire." Only using bigger words and better grammar.

Anyway, I've read a *little* about ID and can't get past the idea that it's somehow situated along that objectivity/subjectivity divide -- like, the apparatus we use for observing the universe is our intelligence, so of course what we find will appear to be intelligently ordered, since it's being ordered on the perceiver side.

Personally, I stick this up with belief in magick and spirits and all that stuff -- if it quacks like a Divinity, eats bread crumbs like a Divinity and waddles like a Divinity, you might as well treat it like a duck. Divinity, I mean. You might as well treat it like a Divinity. Of some sort.

I mean, even if It is only in our heads, there's plenty of room in there, isn't there.

However, the whole concept is very eagerly being seized upon by forces with little patience for objective/subjective cross-overs, and used a bit like a stout club with a shiny metal head.
 
 
Tom Morris
09:59 / 19.04.04
Here's my very unscientific response. I don't honestly consider ID/creationism science, because it is not disprovable. Any evidence you present - be it geological evidence stating that the earth has to be more than 6,000 years old or genetic data on the origins of species - will be rebutted with "Well, God/$deity made it complex to confuse the icky secular scientists". That, to me, denies any kind of provability or unprovability. If your answer to every question is "God made it complex", then there is no scientific endeavour. It denies empirical observation or philosophising, simply because it is an over-riding 'metanarrative'.

Creationists/IDeologues whined that "the lack of fossil records disprove Darwin's theory of evolution". Then fossil records were found nullifying their attack on evolution and making a blow to creationism and the only way they could counteract that is to say "Well, God works in mysterious ways - he probably put the fossils down to give the illusion of the world being older than it really is."

Creationists and (un-)intelligent designists also fall in to philosophical holes. They claim, for example, that evolution is the basis of an immoral or unethical worldview. Yet Richard Dawkins defines this perfectly: "if you would extract a moral from [the book "The Selfish Gene"], read it as a warning. Be warned that if you wish, as I do, to build a society in which individuals cooperate generously and unselfishly towards a common good, you can expect little help from biological nature. Let us try to teach generosity and altruism, because we are born selfish. Let us understand what our own selfish genes are up to, because we may then at least have the chance to upset their designs, something that no other species has ever aspired to... it is a fallacy - incidentally a very common one - to suppose that genetically inherited traits are by definition fixed and unmodifiable. Our genes may instruct us to be selfhish, but we are not necessarily compelled to obey them all our lives. It may just be more difficult to learn altruism than it would be if we were genetically programmed to be altruistic."
Which makes a lot of sense. If, as creationists propose, evolution is an 'evil' worldview, inherently evil, they are using that attack to heighten their own theory as being morally superior. One only needs to look to priests molesting Sunday School boys or the Crusades to see the high ethical standards that creationists set. If there is a logical fallacy in my condemnation of creationists as child molestors, then it's no more of a logical fallacy than the creationists are committing by saying the same of evolution.

They try to back this assertion up with the idea that crime rates have increased since evolution started being taught in schools or used as the basis for scientific research. Creationists are about as good as sociologists or criminologists as they are as scientists. Crime rate is usually affected by the society in which it is caused - the age of the population, their class, economic status, employment prospects and political situation. Sure, one or two nutjobs may be affected by the idea of social Darwinism - seeing themselves as a force of natural selection, but that isn't evolution, that's just burgeoning insanity. The crime rate argument is a post hoc. It's bullshit. Which makes it a shimmering example of creationist logic.

As it currently stands, 95% of scientists in the United States wholeheartedly support evolution. This includes people who are not even directly related to the biological sciences - mechanical engineers, computer scientists. Of those in related fields, more than 99.8% of scientists support the theory of evolution. The idea that, in schools, there should be 'equal' amount of time might have weight if the amount of scientists supporting evolution was 50-50 with the amount supporting creationism. As it currently stands, though, considering that only 0.15% of scientists in fields of relevance support creationism, surely only 0.15% of the teaching time should be devoted to teaching the bullshit of creationism.

Intelligent design is creationism, but as it is trying to hold court in public opinion (outside of the conservative christian circles), it's just put on a smart suit and tried to act clever for the cameras.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:48 / 24.04.04
I tend towards the scientific/evolutionist view of life, however, I'm happy to accept the idea that there's a God that started everything off, that created the Big Bang, that created evolution... the 'bible is literally true' brigade I see as just bad thinking in all it's senses, not least that they tend to hold up the King James Bible as being literally true when studies have proved many passages have had their meanings completely changed from the original texts they were translated from, but anyway...
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
08:26 / 25.04.04
I understand that some of the more scientific arguements for Intelligent Design are based around statistical maths.

The central idea of this is to work out a chain of probabilities for an event. Above a certain threshold of improbability, an event is said to be the product of an intelligent design.

Fof instance, if you were to work out the chain of events that must happen for a bicycle to be made (Aluminium must be extracted from the earth, purified, melted, shaped into tubes, tubes welded together to make a frame, etc....) the probablilty of all this happening spontaneoulsy is small. Very small, and so we can say for certain that this is the product of an intelligent design.

Surely a living organism, even the simplest, is as complex a device as a bicycle. Surely the chain of probabilities needed to make it come about must make it so improbable that the conclusion of intelligent design is inevitable.

I'm no biologist, but I think that the main flaws in these arguements are:
1) Does evolutionary theory say that the first self-replicating chemicals and cells start forming as the result of one or two events? Something like lightning hitting a soup of nitrates and carbon-compounds to trigger certain chemical reactions, after which you get DNA replication. These one or two events are improbable, but possible. After this, do we not have our very own 'Intelligent Designer' in action? A self replicating chemical can churn out a lot of strange stuff, completely bypassing normal laws of chemical creation. So if probability says that the chances of chemicals X an Y forming molecule Z are nearly zilch, it doesn't matter. An organism can damn well go get 'em and stick them together!

2) Do we have ALL the information about the creation of life? Surely a theory of chained-up probabilites assumes this. For instance, let's say the spontaneous creation of one particular molecule causes evolutionary headaches - given a set of ingredients, the chances of this thing springing up are miniscule. This must point to intelligent design. But evolution is a science. It can be progressed, and more information added to the picture. Do we know every single chemical present in the system? Can we rule out some sort of catalyst that allows skipping some more improbable stage?

3) The Universe is big. Very big. So even if the probability of life is tiny, the number of chances for it to occur are huge.
 
 
Gyan
13:47 / 25.04.04
The main flaw in ID is that the proponents are implicitly asserting that they are as smart as one can get. After all, only if you are that smart, can you assert that it is INDEED NOT POSSIBLE for a certain structure to form randomly. That it MUST BE "intelligent" design.

Ultimately, ID is a dead end. Let's say you accept ID as true. Now what? What's to research? If you can break something down into simpler parts, fine. If you can't, you just say then that step is irreducible. It's a classic case of a premeditated conclusion dictating evidentiary analysis.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
21:25 / 25.04.04
The underlying problem with the intelligent design and creationist concept is the overall complexity of the biosphere - The Russian scientist Vernadsky who invented the concept of the Biosphere back in the early 20th C put the amount of biological matter on the earth at 10 the power of 21 grams. Which is an enormous number - contemporary figures tend to be surprisingly similar.

The reason this appears a problem is that the sheer diversity and volume of living things can only support an evolutionary system. No design based systems would or perhaps even could be that complex...

JBS Haldane - when asked said that he thought 'that god must have an inordinate fondness for beetles...' A more modern version would be that any designer must have really liked DNA because there is so much of it.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:23 / 27.04.04
One of the reasons that I find this topic interesting is that the ID arguments aren't that easy to refute. For instance, how do you respond to Behe's claim that the cilium is irreducibly complex (in the sense that anything short of the whole mechansism couldn't work and hence could not have evolved by gradual processes required for evolution)?

What about (the much easier to rebut) claim that evolution contradicts the second law of thermodynaics?

There are lots more. I think, if I put my mind to it, I could argue a fairly strong ID case these days. Which is unsettling, because even though I am fairly sure I know some counterarguments, it is unlikely that you will, unless you have studied the debate a little.

When I've questioned friends, who are quite scientifically minded, they gave answers much like SMS above - it is not credible that biologists are engaged in a conspiracy of such magnitude. This is both convincing and unsatisfying, I think, and goes to the heart of the philosophy of science and the filters, bias and provisionality of knowledge that many in the headshop like to talk about.
 
 
Tom Morris
12:28 / 27.04.04
"Ultimately, ID is a dead end. Let's say you accept ID as true. Now what? What's to research? If you can break something down into simpler parts, fine."

Exactly. This is one of the more insane tricks of proponents of creationism/ID. To claim that "Evolution keeps on changing" doubts that evolution contains any truth is to reveal that the person making that claim has only a very precursory knowledge of the scientific method. Science comes up with theories based on facts. As we discover more facts, theories are either proved or disproved. It is amazing seeing creationists trot out the "Evolution keeps on changing" line, then still hold that creationism is science, despite the fact that one can not prove or disprove it.
 
 
Tom Morris
12:33 / 27.04.04
Also, a lot of interesting resources on evolution can be found here: http://www.evowiki.org/
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:19 / 27.04.04
Yeah, attempting to discern origin for intelligent design is the real bitch. First, intelligence is something that "emerged" in our universe, ergo in what universe did the intelligence emerge that designed this one?

It's the old "If god made the universe, who made god" question.

Of course, the science of Emergence is starting to make it look like the universe emerged from a few very simple rules of physics whose interaction would inevitably lead to our current state.
 
 
SiliconDream
20:49 / 27.04.04
For instance, how do you respond to Behe's claim that the cilium is irreducibly complex (in the sense that anything short of the whole mechansism couldn't work and hence could not have evolved by gradual processes required for evolution)?

"How do you know?" is the only response really needed. Claims must have evidence. Behe must show that a cilium has no possible evolutionary precursors, and he hasn't done this.

What he has done is to say--not show, since the research he quotes isn't his--that when you remove any particular type of molecule from a cilium, it doesn't work anymore. But that only means that the evolutionary precursor of a cilium couldn't be that cilium with a molecule removed! It could still be a cilium with one or more types of molecule added, or a cilium with one or more types of molecule changed to a different type. And Behe hasn't demonstrated that either of those possible precursors would themselves be irreducibly complex.

So, again, until Behe actually backs up his claim somehow, there's no reason to pay attention. I could claim that the Big Bang is impossible, because the law of gravity says the universe can only ever get smaller, but no one has to listen to me.

What about (the much easier to rebut) claim that evolution contradicts the second law of thermodynamics?

A) The biosphere is not a closed system, so entropy can decrease within the bodies of animals as long as there's a net increase over the whole universe, and

B) "Highly-evolved" animals aren't necessarily more orderly in an entropic sense anyway.

There are lots more. I think, if I put my mind to it, I could argue a fairly strong ID case these days. Which is unsettling, because even though I am fairly sure I know some counterarguments, it is unlikely that you will, unless you have studied the debate a little.

Well, most people ought to study it, so please argue away. :-)
 
 
flufeemunk effluvia
21:12 / 27.04.04
I will be an asshole here and just try to add my bit in. I think intelligent design as a beginning and evolution as everything aftereards makes perfect sense. The fact that this universe has physical laws is enough to show that there is some crazy force at hand in its creation. I am not saying that this unseen force was God or intelligent in the sense that we would think of, but there must have been some kind of pre-existing condition that created how existence works.

A biochemist studiying the carbon atom left science for religion because he found out that the existence of the carbon atom and thusly the existence of life was so unlikely some force must have played a hand in its existence. I forget where I heard about this (either a book on chaos theory or a Wired article) but I wish I knew the name of that guy.

It is a shame that both sides of this debate are so hard-line (christian or athiest or whatever) that they refuse to have a dialouge on this. We could have another goddamn enlightenment over this kind of thing and unlock all of the secrets of the universe and whatnot but people are too fucking stubborn. Ah well. Have at what I just blabbed on and on about.
 
 
SiliconDream
01:37 / 28.04.04
I am not saying that this unseen force was God or intelligent in the sense that we would think of, but there must have been some kind of pre-existing condition that created how existence works.

Why?

And, given that such a condition need not be "God or intelligent," why would you assume it was? As opposed to an endless void, or a pre-existing universe, or whatnot?

A biochemist studiying the carbon atom left science for religion because he found out that the existence of the carbon atom and thusly the existence of life was so unlikely some force must have played a hand in its existence. I forget where I heard about this (either a book on chaos theory or a Wired article) but I wish I knew the name of that guy.

Wouldn't really matter--a biochemist wouldn't have much to say about the conditions for the existence of carbon anyway. ;-)

IMO, probabilistic arguments for God/ID never work--as we discussed in the thread on Stephen Unwin's book. You can't just say "The existence of carbon (or whatever) is too improbable to happen by chance"--you have to actually compute the probability of carbon's existence over all possible Theories of Everything which don't involve God. Then you have to compute the probability of each of those Theories of Everything being true in the first place, which you can't do without having a Theory of Theories of Everything to give you the ground rules for that computation. Then you have to compute the probability of that theory, and so on ad infinitum. This is not only physically impossible, but barely meaningful from a mathematical standpoint.

And then you have to do it all over again to figure out how likely carbon (or whatever) is if there is a God...

It is a shame that both sides of this debate are so hard-line (christian or athiest or whatever) that they refuse to have a dialouge on this.

Most ID opponents aren't atheist, simply because most people aren't atheist. Many believe, as you apparently do, that the whole business was created and maintained by God or some other supernatural force--but they don't think this has any explanatory or predictive value for studying the evolution of life on Earth. ID advocates argue that we have to accept God in order to understand evolution...that's the difference.
 
 
flufeemunk effluvia
19:54 / 28.04.04
Most ID opponents aren't atheist, simply because most people aren't atheist. Many believe, as you apparently do, that the whole business was created and maintained by God or some other supernatural force--but they don't think this has any explanatory or predictive value for studying the evolution of life on Earth. ID advocates argue that we have to accept God in order to understand evolution...that's the difference.

I was really just trying to say that there should be some sort of debate on the issue which rises above personal attacks on each other (i.e. the previous comments about all ID supporters being bible-toting crazyfuck creationist morons while the Pat Robertson types go and fuck up a rather interesting theory).

Maybe I am just crazy when i think that fact that there is existence means there is some sort of higher power at work.

better not leave the argument to me though...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
13:56 / 29.04.04
I rather liked Dawkins on TV last night he said (I paraphrase.) The problem with ID is that it can't explain the terrible elements of the designs around us. He was discussing two versions of flat fish. The ones such as the plaice where the 'eye' moves around its head as it gets older and the 'dover sole' which is born flat. (I explain badly). He said that no intelligent designer would a) have multiple solutions to the same problem and b) the 'plaice' would not exists as no ID could possible invent something so bizarre. Evolution however can...

his version was more poetic than my paraphrase...
 
 
SiliconDream
14:23 / 29.04.04
Yeah, but that's where the "God works in mysterious ways" bit comes in. Maybe he just thinks plaices are really cool, and soles are cool too but in a different way, so they're both worth making.

Any universe, containing any particular collection of odd beasts, could have been made by an intelligent designer who happened, for its own reasons, to want to make exactly that universe.

Likewise any universe could have been made without the help of an intelligent designer. Even if a giant old man's face appears in the sky every Sunday and issues commandments, maybe that's just due to chance. Or impersonal cosmic law. Or maybe that's an extremely powerful but non-divine being masquerading as God. Et cetera.

That's why the question of an intelligent designer is a scientific non-issue--it doesn't give you any observable consequences, one way or the other.
 
 
LykeX
06:52 / 02.05.04
SDV: The interesting (I think) thing about that argument is, that it is in fact not a scientific or logical argument. It's a theological argument, since it's based on what God would or wouldn't do.
And like Silicon said, how can we really know what God, provided he exists, would do? Perhaps God has made this world for the single purpose of fucking us up, who knows. Maybe he's just a sick bastard who's having a lot of laugh watching us trying to figure all this out.
"Haha, quantum nonlocality? Will they EVER get a clue?"
 
 
[siddhartha]
10:57 / 17.05.04
I understand that some of the more scientific arguements for Intelligent Design are based around statistical maths.

The central idea of this is to work out a chain of probabilities for an event. Above a certain threshold of improbability, an event is said to be the product of an intelligent design.

Fof instance, if you were to work out the chain of events that must happen for a bicycle to be made (Aluminium must be extracted from the earth, purified, melted, shaped into tubes, tubes welded together to make a frame, etc....) the probablilty of all this happening spontaneoulsy is small. Very small, and so we can say for certain that this is the product of an intelligent design.

Surely a living organism, even the simplest, is as complex a device as a bicycle. Surely the chain of probabilities needed to make it come about must make it so improbable that the conclusion of intelligent design is inevitable.


Proponents of ID say that it is very improbable that the complexity of living organisms arose through natural processes. One beautifully simple idea that opposes this is as follows (quoted from Biology fourth edition, Arms & Camp):

Given enough time... even very improbable events are bound to occur. For example, if the probability that an event will occur in a year is one in a thousand, the probability that it will not occur is 0.999; the probability that it will not happen in two years is (0.999)^2... there is a very small probability that the event will not happen at least once in 8128 years [0.000276]. Conversely, there is a very high probability (0.9997) that it will happen at least once-and once may have been enough for the origin of life on Earth.

However improbable the events required for the origin of life, they had plenty of time to happen... (about 3.5 billion years).


Breathtaking, isn't it? Evolution giving rise to complexity doesn't seem so implausible, after all....
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:27 / 17.05.04
Well, yes and no. It is possible for an event to be so improbable that it has a vanishingly small chance of happening, even if taken over the life of the universe.

10^{-10^{10000}} is a fairly small number that should be sufficient in that regard. (By a huge factor, I think.)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:57 / 24.05.04
Both sides of this debate seem to feel that humans are special, either by statistical improbability or by divine right, when in fact we are nothing but very complex organs by which matter exchanges information, and that bugs me. There emphatically is a "conspiracy" ("Civilization is a conspiracy against nature." -I forget[possibly me]) to suppress "creationism" or "intelligent design", but so what? I sometimes think these folks should be sent to East Timor or someplace so they will understand what religious persecution actually is.

Simple:
You have a universe where there is matter within finite spaces, and the matter moves around. When it does, it bumps into other matter, which also moves. You've got a little kinetic configuration. These configurations ramify into quite complex snowflakes of information being shuttled around. At a certain point, a threshold is reached where the information is so complex and sensitive that it is capable of responding, not just to "external" movements but to "internal" ones.

That's it. Everything else is perception. It is "intelligent," in that it is reactive, creative, and self-aware, but not "magic", ie does not require special conditions to function, and no external forces are needed to explain it, except, of course, the One Big Force, which we are not presently equipped to understand--nor ar we ever equipped to understand it, according to the creationists.

Robert Graves, when he wrote King Jesus, an account of the life of Jesus in which no magic occurs, said something to the effect that if God created everything (Graves believed in God but was unconvinced about his supremacy), he created natural laws, and he created them to accomodate miracles inasmuch as he wanted there to be miracles, and to suggest that he would violate the laws he himself set down simply to save something as paultry as the souls of men was tantamount to blasphemy, not just because it suggests that God might think twice, and is therefore fallible, but that he held the soul of man to be more important than his own work, which is idolatry, and which both sides of this debate are guilty of, but that nevertheless miracles happen, and can always be explained in natural terms. For instance, the Assumption of Jesus into Heaven is physically impossible, not just because we've never observed such a thing, but because we have observed what happens when matter disappears from the universe (very large explosions). So there must be some other explanation.

The other thing that horks me off is that people tend to refer to evolution as some kind of natural force, something that leads somewhere and exerts its own pressure, like wind. When organisms evolve, they are quite clearly evolving themselves, not being evolved, even if they didn't sit down and say, "Hmm, gettin' awful windy out here, better evolve me some fur."
 
 
Tom Morris
07:47 / 25.05.04
Able Frotter: "Both sides of this debate seem to feel that humans are special, either by statistical improbability or by divine right"

Statistical improbability? Whoops. That's a straw man of the evolution argument. Natural selection is the absolute opposite of chance.
 
 
SiliconDream
23:19 / 25.05.04
He did say humans in particular, and plenty of evolutionists would agree that humans are statistically improbable. They just don't consider any other possible creatures to be more probable. Fleas and peacocks and giant squids are all here both because they were fitter than their competitors, and because they won the lottery of chance. Just like us.
 
 
grant
17:35 / 02.08.05
The ID debate looks ready to heat up again a little -- after Bush rambled on in a recent press conference that covered the Roberts nomination and the Palmeiro steroid scandal, too.

According to this report, he kept trying to wiggle away from intelligent design and into what great guys Roberts and Palmeiro are, after dropping his bombshell.

President Bush waded into the debate over evolution and "intelligent design" Monday, saying schools should teach both theories on the creation and complexity of life.

In a wide-ranging question-and-answer session with a small group of reporters, Bush essentially endorsed efforts by Christian conservatives to give intelligent design equal standing with the theory of evolution in the nation's schools


....

Bush compared the current debate to earlier disputes over "creationism," a related view that adheres more closely to biblical explanations. As governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.

On Monday the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about."

The Kansas Board of Education is considering changes to encourage the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and Christian conservatives are pushing for similar changes in other school districts across the country.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. " You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes."

The National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science have both concluded that there's no scientific basis for intelligent design and oppose its inclusion in school science classes.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:03 / 02.08.05
Quick question: how do you all think the evolution of conciousness, or just plain conciousness, fits in with this debate? A little? A lot? Not at all?
 
 
Atyeo
21:01 / 02.08.05
Evolution all the way!

When I look at the two arguements of Evolutionist and IDers there seems little competition. In the last 200 hundred years we have moved from the total ignorance of the Creationists to an incredible complex and robust theory. I find it strange that people are so willing to swallow these pseudo-scientific theories of IDers but seem to neglect the massive amount of evidence to the contrary. The 'evidence' that I've read from Behe and the like is, well, rather embarrasing.

Lets make a few things clear - Evolution does NOT contravene the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Irreducible Complexity does not falisfy evolution.

An analogy: 400 years ago (pre-Newton and Gallileo) we had no hard evidence of forces, energies, thermodynamics, all scientific knowledge, etc. Nowadays, no-one would ever suggest that these concepts are entirely wrong but there are still disagreements and a lot of fine tuning (see Relativity and Quantum Mechanics).

This is the strength and beauty of Science and the Scientific Method, these disagreements push our understanding of the world to ever more amazing levels. It seems to me that people are saying that if evolution cannot explain everything now, in this instant, then it most be fundamentally flawed, this, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I suppose ultimately you have to decide, "Which is more probable? A blind faith guess that no-one has any evidence of in the slightest or Evolution". For me, that isn't a 50/50 bet.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:27 / 03.08.05
I'm continually surprised at the way science in general, and evolution theory specifically, is held up as some kind of opposition to religious belief. Science, at it's core, is the investigation of the physical world. Religion is the investigation of the spiritual world.

Evolutionary theory does not prove or disprove spiritual involvement in the creation of life, it simply provides us with the known facts. There is no evidence that life was not given a jumpstart by some supernatural entity, but there is no evidence that it was either. So until such evidence is discovered perhaps we should be teaching something along those lines.

I personally tend to agree with Dawkin's view. But I am open to the possibility that spiritual forces may exist in this big ol' universe. A good scientist discounts nothing (unless it's been disproven on some kind of graph ;-).
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:26 / 03.08.05
I'm not sure that I really accept religion as being an investigation into the spiritual world.

But really, the tension between science and religion is fairly straightforward. That is, religion has justified itself, in part, by giving mythological explantions for the world around us which we could otherwise not explain. The further science provides explanations for these things, the more it becomes apparent that these mythological explanations are unneccessary (this is well understood, philosophically) and so an emotive underpinning and justification for religion is removed.

Even now I get surprised that people think that something like "Look at the trees and the mountains. Surely that is evidence of the Great Moo-Bah and all her holiness" is a convincing argument. Evolution, and science generally but evolution is most fundamental here, completely undermines this type of argument.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:05 / 03.08.05
Perhaps investigation is the wrong word to use, but you get my meaning. Religion deals with things spiritual, and is reliant on faith to accept that intangible concepts are real.

The answers that science provides do cause people to question their perspectives of the universe and it's origins/future. But science doesn't make a call on whether or not God exists or whether or not a specific religion is right or wrong.

Children should be taught that evolution is a reality, not one theory amongst many. But what they should also be taught is that evolution is not the explanation of how life began, it is the explanation of how life develops.

The problem with ID is not that it's wrong, but that it pretends to be a scientific explanation when it is in fact a religious one.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:07 / 03.08.05
I mean, the problem with ID is not that it is necessarily wrong. I'm not a believer in it myself.

Evil Scientist, currently wearing his "Dawkins was right" t-shirt.
 
  

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