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Intelligent Design and Evolution. How do you decide?

 
  

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invisible_al
18:40 / 20.12.05
Judge Smacks Down ID in Dover court case decidion. (Here's the decision itself.)

And oh what a decision it is, "The breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial." Owch.

Some interesting facts that came up in the trial include an early draft of the ID book Of Pandas and People had Creationism where-ever Intelligent design is now. Also a "wedge document" where the creators of ID wrote that their goal was to eliminate science and replace it with christian ideals.

Happy Holidays .
 
 
grant
19:46 / 20.12.05
Anybody catch Sunday's Doonesbury?
 
 
■
20:54 / 04.01.06
Apparently the creationist loons did.

My jaw drops with every paragraph I read of this.
 
 
Quantum
10:03 / 05.01.06
"Indeed, what we see in God’s world agrees with what we read in God’s Word."

ROTFLMAO.
 
 
■
11:55 / 05.01.06
I do so love the fact in that court decision that even though they're claiming ID is not the same as creationism, all they did when creationism was struck down was to replace all instances of it in the Panda book with ID and didn't touch anything else. "Sure, point that gun at your foot, pull the trigger, they'll never notice."
 
 
HCE
04:07 / 10.01.06
I get an 'Image Not Available' error from the newspaper. The creationists helpfully provide a copy of the comic, however.
 
 
Loomis
09:13 / 21.02.06
A growing number of science students on British campuses and in sixth form colleges are challenging the theory of evolution and arguing that Darwin was wrong. Some are being failed in university exams because they quote sayings from the Bible or Qur'an as scientific fact and at one sixth form college in London most biology students are now thought to be creationists.
 
 
sleazenation
09:49 / 21.02.06
Interesting debate on this subject between Christian scientists of Radio 4 last night... the most interesting element being that they represented all views and the overwhelming majority stood by scientifc methodology.

THew important point that they re-emphasized was a distinction between ID following scientific methodology and with 'creationism' following theologial interpretations of select biblical texts...
 
 
grumblebee
18:52 / 21.02.06
I am incredibly BORED by the evolution/ID debate. This admission may offend some, since debate is incredibly important to many people (on both sides), but it is how I feel. And I say this as someone passionately interested in both science and religion. Though I'm an atheist, I see religion as a beautiful, meaningful fiction -- meaningful in the same way "King Lear" is meaningful. I'm almost positive that if I was a Fundamentalist, I'd see Evolution as a beautiful fiction (as opposed to the way most Fundamentalist’s see it -- as wicked fiction). It saddens and tires me that SO much energy is spent going on and on about which one is TRUE.

Sure, that's important, but harping on it prevents us from delving further into what is a really exciting idea -- whether or NOT it maps onto physical reality. Those who have a deep understanding of Darwinian Evolution and genetics know how beautiful and powerful the theory is. Those who get caught up in the "debate" tend to miss out on something that could really change them.

In a similar vein, if I spend years going on and on about how God doesn't exist, I'm (a) just saying the same thing over and over again -- BORING, and (b) missing out on a ton of really lovely art, music and literature.

I KNOW there are important issues brought up by the debate, i.e. how we educate our children. But just for five minutes, I would love for everyone to calm down, study the Theory, and not worry about whether or not it is true or false.
 
 
Saltation
18:59 / 21.02.06
interesting note raised by an american observer a while back, is that a great deal of the heat in the american debates arises from their half-sighted decision to ban religious education in schools.

therefore, if creationism is not "a science", it may not be taught as a possibility and citizens may not make an informed choice regarding their beliefs.


the meme-confusion in that banning there is that "religious education" == "religious indoctrination". but by preventing one extreme potentially creatable by sloppy admin/execution, they've created the opposite.

hint to all government/policy/pollywonk wannabes:
hell: to all people anywhere and anywhen:

think more about the CONSEQUENCES than the STANCE
 
 
sleazenation
14:59 / 22.02.06
therefore, if creationism is not "a science", it may not be taught as a possibility and citizens may not make an informed choice regarding their beliefs.

Not quite. If creationism is not 'a science' then it surely follows that it has no place in 'science class' by simple dint of not being a science. The comparative merits of religious education and/or state sponsored religious education is a seperate issue.
 
 
Saltation
15:43 / 22.02.06
> > therefore, if creationism is not "a science", it may not be taught as a possibility and citizens may not make an informed choice regarding their beliefs.
>
>Not quite. If creationism is not 'a science' then it surely follows that it has no place in 'science class'.


exactly.
so in america, it can't be taught in schools at all. and hence there's an injustice there -- if it can't be dubbed a new badge, kids can't find out about it in school at all.

whereas, if religion CAN be taught in schools (but is kept off the certificated curriculum, like it is in australia), then the biblebashers have an outlet. reduced societal pressure. and IMHO, if someone's silly enough to run through a fossil record or two AND still believe in the modern flavour of creationism, then whether or not they saw it at school first is not that big a deal.
 
 
Spaniel
16:54 / 22.02.06
exactly.
so in America, it can't be taught in schools at all.


It can't? Um, surely there are other forums other than the science class where it can be discussed. Do no American schools have religious education classes? Do all schools that ban Creationism from science classes ban it from the curriculum?
 
 
*
19:59 / 22.02.06
Nope. I went to an American school. Didn't take a religious education class (and I don't recall one being offered) but we read some excerpts from the Bible in literature, and there were certainly school-sponsored religious groups which met on campus.
 
 
Spaniel
20:16 / 22.02.06
Surely a religious class wouldn't be the only forum for such a discussion though? You mean to tell me there are no spaces at American schools which could cater for the intelligent design crew?
 
 
Olulabelle
22:15 / 22.02.06
Would there may be some space for this sort of discussion in a class on Philosophy?

I don't know about the American schooling system but when I was at school in the UK (this was sometime ago) there was a thing called C.A.R.E (Careers and Religious Education). Quite how Careers and R.E got combined is anyone's guess but actually the lessons encompassed everything not covered anywhere else, including how to put on a condom. I expect if Intelligent Design was a concept then we would have discussed it in that lesson.

Or maybe not. It was a very small rural school.
 
 
Dr. Tom
02:13 / 23.02.06
I have something of a scientific education. It dawns on me that any scientfic argument decided by a Court of Law, a School Board or a Legislative body is not science as I know it.

I also politely wonder about from whence the money for ID comes, and where it goes.

The information is out there. Remember- it is a bad sign that we are arguing these points. They are winning.

They are not nice people.
 
 
Spaniel
08:41 / 23.02.06
Well, I don't think most of us are falling into the Intelligent Design vs Evolution debate, rather we're discussing around the issue.

Are they winning? They most certainly aren't over this side of the pond. What's current situation in the states?
 
 
Dr. Tom
09:42 / 23.02.06
It's still too early to tell but the move is on. The Religious Right in state legislatures are falling over themselves to pass new laws so that they can try out the "new" Supreme Court. Here's a snippet from my state:

http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=71223
The Associated Press - ATLANTA

...A push to teach the Bible in public schools, a renewed take on displaying the Ten Commandments at courthouses and even a measure ensuring government employees and students can say "Merry Christmas" without repercussions have won support from members of both parties.

All three measures passed at least one chamber of the Legislature last week by overwhelming votes....

"In both of these cases, I think the Legislature is wading into Constitutional quicksand," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State....
 
 
Saltation
16:42 / 23.02.06
> It's still too early to tell but the move is on. The Religious Right in state legislatures are falling over themselves to pass new laws so that they can try out the "new" Supreme Court.

ah crap, is THAT what's going on? south dakota just banned abortion, even on medical grounds.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:18 / 23.02.06
How do people feel about a thread on religious education in schools in Temple?
 
 
Olulabelle
20:28 / 23.02.06
Goodly.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:06 / 23.02.06
I've started a thread here. I hope some of you will contribute to it.
 
 
Proinsias
22:43 / 25.02.06
Just finished watching this and couldn't believe my ears. Someone has sat through the excellent deep sea episode from the BBCs Blue Planet series and decided that Sir, yes Sir, David Attenborough wasn't really up to the job of narrating a nature documentary. Obviously the best thing to do would be to rearrange the footage and get someone else to narrate, making sure that they don't forget to mention that some of these animals are irrefutable evidence of the existence of god.

It is impossible for the octopuss to have felt the need to conceal itself from other creatures and then to have installed special color cells in it's skin. This splendid camouflage system possesed by the octopuss is without doubt an example of the flawless creation or the all knowing god.

This file is big - 50mb, if you're realy keen you can download it in bits here

If you've not seen the original bbc version it's probably worth watching for the animals alone.
Be careful they will try to catch you out. Only some of the fish seem to qualify as evidence of god, they can go for up to five minutes without mentioning god and even fool you into thinking that you may be watching a bad science documentary. Part of the argument is that the more species we discover the more irrefutable evidence we have for god - how much irefutable evidence do they need?
 
 
enrieb
22:56 / 25.02.06
I find the evidence for darwins theory of evolution overwhelming and ID pathetic.

On darwins side I see all the intelligent reasoned people whos opinions that I respect and on the ID side are all the idiots with looney religious leanings.

Never, Never argue with an idiot, they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
 
enrieb
23:18 / 25.02.06
99 percent of people could not probably explain fully how their compute works or how a nuclear reactor works and transmits electricity to their home.

Just because we cannot explain how these things work, it does not mean that it is the result of a spooky supernatural god like entity.
 
 
Spaniel
23:57 / 25.02.06
I find the evidence for darwins theory of evolution overwhelming and ID pathetic.

That would be because it's unlikely that there will ever be evidence for ID.

ID ain't testable and it sure as buggery ain't falsifiable.
 
 
Saltation
12:52 / 26.02.06
boboss: their Righteous god will smite you for saying that!

let us know as and when you get smited.

that will PROVE to ALL the existence of their righteous god. and won't YOU feel silly, all smited and wrong and stuff.



that de-attenboroughed clip's "Someone" link, above, is accidentally HILARIOUS. click through and just watch the banner ads for a few seconds. you couldn't make it up.

fortunately you don't have to, because someone else is.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:02 / 27.02.06
Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett have had an oddly public spat by email, a private correspondence that Ruse sent to Dembski.

This has sparked lots of blog entries about what the status of christianity and atheism should be in this debate. I like Pharyngula's contributions myself.
 
 
Jub
08:36 / 06.04.06
**NEWSFLASH**

Missing Link Found!
 
 
incoherent
17:50 / 07.04.06
My honest oppinion is that:

Religion ∩ Science = ∅

Or in other words, the intersection of religion and science is the empty set. I believe the two are mutually exclusive.

Religious activists should not try to undermine accepted scientific theories just because they do not agree with their holy scriptures. Similarly scientists should not deconstruct religious dogma just because it is scientifically improbable or impossible.

Science helps us understend out physical world, while religion tends to the spiritual needs and helps us to get in touch with the metaphysical.

I believe that ID vs. Evolution argument is a moot point. It accomplishes nothing.
 
 
julius has no imagination
20:23 / 07.04.06
Incoherent - that's a common argument, and I pretty much agree.

I take issue with one thing though: Similarly scientists should not deconstruct religious dogma just because it is scientifically improbable or impossible. My main problem with that is that it seems to imply that scientists do this. Very few do, as I interpret that statement*. Creationists, on the other hand, by definition "try to undermine accepted scientific theories just because they do not agree with their holy scriptures".

* what I mean by that: If you're saying that scientists shouldn't say "evolution, therefore God doesn't exist", then I agree. If you're saying that scientists shouldn't say "evolution, therefore the Genesis isn't literal truth" then I must vehemently disagree. Ultimately, if (say) you're Christian and want to be successful as a genetics researcher, you'll have to use the findings of evolutionary biology even if they contradict your interpretation of the scripture. Whether there is such a thing as truth, as absolute right and wrong, is a question of philosophy. All that science is concerned with is - as a theory, evolution works. Creationism or ID doesn't.
 
 
incoherent
00:33 / 08.04.06
Julius, I agree - scientists do not usually do that. I didn't mean to say they do. I guess my point was simply that there should be a clear disjunction between one's spiritual beliefs and scientific truth.

I totally agree that if you want to study medicine, or biology/biochemistry you will need to accept the scientific theories that are fundamental for those fields. However, that should have nothing to do with your religion. If you are Christian you should be able to acknowledge the book of genesis as the allegorical truth, and evolution as hard science. You should be able to reconcile, and hold both true at the same time. But I guess that is difficult for some people. Yes, it is a logical paradox, but so is Holy Trinity, or Transubstantiation. And yet, most christians do not have any problems with these.

In my personal oppinion, ID is a silly pseudo science, which holds as much water as pastafarianism (the belief in the flying spagethi monster hehe).
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:00 / 08.04.06
I guess my point was simply that there should be a clear disjunction between one's spiritual beliefs and scientific truth. - incoherent

I'm not sure, really, why that should be the case. Because spiritual beliefs suffer if you refer them to (contigent) fact? Maybe.

I totally agree that if you want to study medicine, or biology/biochemistry you will need to accept the scientific theories that are fundamental for those fields. However, that should have nothing to do with your religion.

I'm an atheist, myself, and I think that the history, progress and success of science contributes to that. So, I suppose I disagree in the sense that I think that science is relevant to the possibilites of a religious outlook. Like making a literal bible interpretation less plausible - this is a clear place where religion and science overlap, despite your assertion to the contrary.
 
 
alas
14:04 / 25.05.07
I watched the film Jesus Camp last night on DVD, and it makes for fascinating viewing. (FYI, it's worth watching the deleted scenes, especially one with kids praying in a christian crisis pregnancy center located next door to the Kansas City Planned Parenthood office; they put their hands on the walls and pray.) There's a scene in the film with a mom homeschooling her son, both quite intelligen,t discussing their creation-science based textbook, and dismissing entirely everything to do with global warming.

(The scenes with pre-scandal Ted Haggard are quite fascinating also in a car-crash sort of way.) Here's the Wikipedia entry on the film.)

Anyway, this morning this NYTimes article "Adam and Eve in the Land of the Dinosaurs about a new creation-science museum near to me, in Kentucky, was a paranoia-inducing follow up to last night's film. Since it's of course registration required, I'll snip a nice chunk, and am happy to send the full text to anyone who asks:

The Creation Museum actually stands the natural history museum on its head. Natural history museums developed out of the Enlightenment: encyclopedic collections of natural objects were made subject to ever more searching forms of inquiry and organization. The natural history museum gave order to the natural world, taming its seeming chaos with the principles of human reason. And Darwin’s theory — which gave life a compelling order in time as well as space — became central to its purpose. Put on display was the prehistory of civilization, seeming to allude not just to the evolution of species but also cultures (which is why “primitive” cultures were long part of its domain). The natural history museum is a hall of human origins.

The Creation Museum has a similar interest in dramatizing origins, but sees natural history as divine history. And now that many museums have also become temples to various American ethnic and sociological groups, why not a museum for the millions who believe that the Earth is less than 6,000 years old and was created in six days?

Mark Looy, a founder of Answers in Genesis with its president, Ken Ham, said the ministry expected perhaps 250,000 visitors during the museum’s first year. In preparation Mr. Ham for 13 years has been overseeing 350 seminars annually about the truths of Genesis, which have been drawing thousands of acolytes. The organization’s magazine has 50,000 subscribers. The museum also says that it has 9,000 charter members and international contributors who have left the institution free of debt.

But for a visitor steeped in the scientific world view, the impact of the museum is a disorienting mix of faith and reason, the exotic and the familiar. Nature here is not “red in tooth and claw,” as Tennyson asserted. In fact at first it seems almost as genteel as Eden’s dinosaurs. We learn that chameleons, for example, change colors not because that serves as a survival mechanism, but “to ‘talk’ to other chameleons, to show off their mood, and to adjust to heat and light.”

Meanwhile a remarkable fossil of a perch devouring a herring found in Wyoming offers “silent testimony to God’s worldwide judgment,” not because it shows a predator and prey, but because the two perished — somehow getting preserved in stone — during Noah’s flood. Nearly all fossils, the museum asserts, are relics of that divine retribution.

The heart of the museum is a series of catastrophes. The main one is the fall, with Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge; after that tableau the viewer descends from the brightness of Eden into genuinely creepy cement hallways of urban slums. Photographs show the pain of war, childbirth, death — the wages of primal sin. Then come the biblical accounts of the fallen world, leading up to Noah’s ark and the flood, the source of all significant geological phenomena.

The other catastrophe, in the museum’s view, is of more recent vintage: the abandonment of the Bible by church figures who began to treat the story of creation as if it were merely metaphorical, and by Enlightenment philosophers, who chipped away at biblical authority. The ministry believes this is a slippery slope.

Start accepting evolution or an ancient Earth, and the result is like the giant wrecking ball, labeled “Millions of Years,” that is shown smashing the ground at the foundation of a church, the cracks reaching across the gallery to a model of a home in which videos demonstrate the imminence of moral dissolution. A teenager is shown sitting at a computer; he is, we are told, looking at pornography.

But given the museum’s unwavering insistence on belief in the literal truth of biblical accounts, it is strange that so much energy is put into demonstrating their scientific coherence with discussions of erosion or interstellar space. Are such justifications required to convince the skeptical or reassure the believer?

In the museum’s portrayal, creationists and secularists view the same facts, but come up with differing interpretations, perhaps the way Ptolemaic astronomers in the 16th century saw the Earth at the center of the universe, where Copernicans began to place the sun. But one problem is that scientific activity presumes that the material world is organized according to unchanging laws, while biblical fundamentalism presumes that those laws are themselves subject to disruption and miracle. Is not that a slippery slope as well, even affecting these analyses?

But for debates, a visitor goes elsewhere. The Creation Museum offers an alternate world that has its fascinations, even for a skeptic wary of the effect of so many unanswered assertions. He leaves feeling a bit like Adam emerging from Eden, all the world before him, freshly amazed at its strangeness and extravagant peculiarities.


One more weird note: if you go to the NYTimes site, you can watch a "slide show" of pictures from the museum, the last one of which is of the bookstore which is called "Dragon Hall" bookstore....? Ah, well.

Thoughts?
 
  

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