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Spatula Clarke
10:06 / 01.04.04
There's been a bit of an increase in spam recently - people joining simply to post the URL of their site, then buggering off straight away. Long-dead threads getting bumped by posts containing nothing more than links with only the vaguest connection to the topic and no attempt to comment on any of the points raised in the previous posts.

Do we have guidelines on this and, if not, do we need them? I can only see it happening more often as the board becomes more visible.

On a related note, a possibly spammy post has just popped up in Music to a site offering bootlegs of commercially available recordings. There's one in Comics to a site with high-quality scans of comics. We've removed such links in the past on request, so what's the policy here? Do we delete links to such sites as soon as they appear (which would be my prefered solution, tbh) or wait until we're asked to? Or does that only apply to creators who are our special friends?
 
 
Grey Area
10:55 / 01.04.04
If it's nothing more than a link to a site, I think the current method is the best...turn it into a nonsense thread and then let it die. This seems to work well in the Convo. In the other fora the moderators could just remove the spam link and indicate why this has been done.

Regarding the bumping of old threads, there's some potential inherent in that. Reviving some old discussions might be interesting. Granted, some examples of this are not quite what one would hope for (we seem to be getting more than our fair share of college students looking for a pre-written paper), but there is potential in reviving threads.

There is the issue of what to do with threads that turn into good discussions based on an item of spam. The 'Follow the White Spider' thread might have turned into a good discussion of viral marketing for instance, given the correct steering (not that I didn't enjoy the platypus-related banter). There's a lot of creative stuff out there that would be interesting discussion material, and if we get to it via spam...well, the means are certainly not perfect, but what we make of it could be.

However, links to bootlegs and the like shouldn't be tolerated, if only because the companies that own the material are getting more and more aggressive in their pursuit of anyone who is seen to assist in the 'theft' of their intellectual property. In this case, I'd advocate deleting the link and locking the thread. If people complain, have a well thought out, non-technical explanation of why it was done.

Having said that, how different are links to file-sharing sites different from the Chaingang Mix-tape effort, or the thread in Music offering the swap of compilation discs?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:18 / 01.04.04
Grey Area, your first point was pretty much what I was gonna say, only infinitely better worded.

Ridicule. Works on most things. Spam, fascism, (all but the most persistent) trolls...

If laws are being broken on the board (rather than by those who are on the board, which is a different thing) then we're bringing down a whole heap of shit on Tom's head, which, as far as I can discern, is a head that doesn't deserve a whole heap of shit being brought down on it. In which case, there's a cause for deletion.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:23 / 01.04.04
Sorry... forgot this part.

Having said that, how different are links to file-sharing sites different from the Chaingang Mix-tape effort, or the thread in Music offering the swap of compilation discs?

Everyone breaks all manner of laws every day. And the threads in various fora in which people discuss their experiences on various illegal drugs aren't gonna cause anyone any trouble, any more than sorting out mix tapes for each other.

The legality on other things is still something of a grey area (if you don't mind me taking your name in vain, GA) and we should possibly veer on the side of caution. (Having had a post deleted because of "possible legal ramifications", I have to say, I thought it was safe, but you can't be too careful. If I was running the site, I'd allow anything, and would probably be clapped in irons within days. Fortunately, Tom seems to be more sensible than I, and it's his house, so I figure we should play nice.)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:03 / 01.04.04
The ridicule solution works when it's a thread like The Nightingale's, where the opening post was the spam, but I was thinking more about those spam posts that appear right in the middle of a thread - taking the piss isn't going to work there, because it'll pull the thread apart. What do we do in those situations? Delete the posts right away, or just leave it there and hope that everybody'll ignore it?

as far as the mix tapes threads go, good point. It's a fine line between sticking a compilation of various pieces together and providing a copy of an entire album, but the line's there. Ethically, if not legally.

There are three specific examples that I'm thinking of in this thread. The first was a post which bumped the Anticon thread in Music. It contained a URL which led to an online shop and didn't address any of the previous posts at all. As such, it was obviously spam and deleted as a result.

The second is the latest post in the Fall thread in Music. It's on topic, but there's a link at the end to a bootlegs site. One of the downloads available from there is a Peel Session set of Fall recordings - I'm not sure, but this might be the same set of sessions as is available on vinyl and CD. Other links on the site seem to point to live recording s which aren't available elsewhere. What do we do in this case?

The third is the recent post in one of the Flex Mentallo threads which provides a link to scans of three of the four Flex issues. We've already had one of the creators voice concerns about Barbelith apparently promoting this kind of thing and previously removed similar links in accordance to his wishes, but this one's still up.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:23 / 01.04.04
Again, as I say, we should veer on the side of caution.

Especially if the creators of whatever have expressed concerns about it.

And yes, ridicule doesn't work if the post is in the middle of a thread... I have to admit, I hadn't thought of that.

But yes. If we're likely to get the site busted, I'm all in favour of deletion. We can argue about what we deleted later if the poster has a problem with it (and, afaik, this stuff can be retrieved. I could be wrong there though). I try to avoid deletion as a solution to anything... but in certain cases, it's the only solution.
 
 
Grey Area
14:50 / 01.04.04
First off, while I think we have to discuss this, I would advise against trying to implement something that's too heavy-handed. The board's run fine so far, and even though we're accumulating members at the rate of about 30 a day, the resulting spam has been negligible on the whole...as far as I can see. Of course, I don't frequent the comics and music fora as much as the others, and anecdotal evidence leads me to believe that these are the two fora that attract the most attention in terms of spamming and file-sharing issues.

Deleting posts in-thread is probably the best approach...OK, so it may throw some of the following comments out of context, but I think the board as a whole will understand why it was done. Nobody likes spam.

The second is the latest post in the Fall thread in Music. It's on topic, but there's a link at the end to a bootlegs site.

See, this is about the only occassion where things would get tricky. My suggestion is to PM the user and say something along the lines of "your post was interesting, but that link you posted could get the board into trouble, which is why I removed it.". Most users of the board would understand why it was done if the explanation was made in a non-confrontational, non-elitist manner. Storming in and deleting the link while bellowing about what a wanker the user is and do you want to bring down the board and all...well, that should be avoided.

Basic gist of what I'm saying: If in doubt, try and contact the poster and sort it out in a friendly manner.

My suggestion would be to hammer out a general spam guide for the moderators. I would suggest that personal ideals are set aside in the discussion thereof in the interests of the board...I know there are people on here who are anti-authoritarian, free speech, anarcho-syndicalist, whatever, but this has ramifications that could affect the future of the board, and a decision needs to be made that everyone agrees with, albeit grudgingly. Once these guidelines are set down, then everyone follows them. Post them in the Wiki, and refer to them if the 'polite chat' approach doesn't work.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:58 / 01.04.04
Well yes. "Polite chat" should always be the first port of call. And if deletion happens, then whoever had their stuff deleted should be contacted and told WHY. It'd just be rude otherwise.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:21 / 02.04.04
If we're expecting or experiencing a major increase in the number of one-line spam posts, then I suggest we start disabling the links - just delete them and replace with "spamlink", thus allowing ridicule to continue to make sense but also not rewarding the spammer wiht a link to their site...
 
 
Perfect Tommy
06:28 / 02.04.04
I was just about to suggest that, particularly because we ought to expect an increase in people unfamiliar with what does and doesn't go, so it seems likely to me we could get interesting posts which have just the one offending element of an inappropriate link. Getting a link removed and a PM'd explanation seems friendlier than a complete erasure of the post.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:17 / 02.04.04
If someone spams the board, then can I ask that people just delete the thread or post in question as soon as possible. The only circumstances where this wouldn't be appropriate are when people have tried to return the conversation to something vaguely useful subsequently.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:45 / 10.08.04
Can we not get shot of this dick? The suit's being used solely for the purpose of posting links to what is presumably the owner's site (each one in a brand new thread, natch) - he's got so little involvement with Barbelith that he's not even aware that his last spammy thread was moved to Conversation.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:46 / 10.08.04
Sorry, forgot to add a reference link to his latest turd.
 
 
sleazenation
22:52 / 10.08.04
Has anyone tried to get in contact with ADD and explain that we don't really welcome spamming threads pimping stuff from people that don't post on other threads/forums within barbelith yet? - I figure that it has to be worth a try- sure he may very well get into a huff.

I can drop him a PM if people think it a good idea...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:14 / 10.08.04
Probably the best way of going about it, sleaze...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:37 / 11.08.04
Somehow a part of me can't help but feel that it was worth ADD's post to see BioK9's response.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
04:15 / 11.08.04
Were I a little bit nastier and a lot less busy, I'd be sorely tempted to find ADD's forum and respond in kind.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:43 / 11.08.04
I thought about PMing him, but decided against it because there's no evidence that he'll read it (as he's obviously not reading responses to his own threads).

Whatever, at the very least could we have the URL removed from his post or the post deleted entirely? Letting it stay sends out the message that this is free advertising space.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:05 / 11.08.04
I would suggest that moderators in the relevent fora delete the thread if they're quick enough or delete the message if not.
 
 
Char Aina
04:29 / 13.08.04
Were I a little bit nastier and a lot less busy, I'd be sorely tempted to find ADD's forum and respond in kind.

i'm both.
you want it done?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:43 / 13.08.04
Sure, because an interboard flamewar is always SO FUN. I've sent a PM to ADD which hopefully he'll read the next time he comes to spam us. If not, I'm sure several of us will ask Tom to delete his suit. That will hopefully give him a clue.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:32 / 13.08.04
toxik, dear boy, REALLY NOT.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:27 / 14.08.04
Well, whaddayaknow. Our boy has form.

Since he's been doing this sort of thing elsewhere without apparent comment, maybe this is a simple matter of confusion due to different board etiquette.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:24 / 14.08.04
You know, if I wrote paragraphs like:

So, too, has the storyline in these X-Men issues been followed up on for many years by creators unable to grasp the essence of the tale. Sure, Days of Future Past is about time travel. Titanic is about a boat sinking. Star Wars is about a war in space. Just because you can break the plot of a great story down into a single phrase doesn't mean just anyone can create a similarly worthy tale. The stink from the two decades of crap that followed these two X-Men issues can be smelled from the galaxy of Andromeda. By someone with a very bad head cold. But that does not diminish the power of the original story, or the joy to be found in re-reading it.

I really wouldn't advertise it.

Ah well. ADD has been PMed, right? So, if he logs back in to plug again, he will get a polite request to stick around and chat, or not to spam. That seems to be the proportionate response, yes?
 
 
w1rebaby
19:18 / 14.08.04
If he only comes here to spam I wouldn't necessarily expect him to read his PMs, or indeed even know that they exist (it's not like the "you've got mail" indicator exactly jumps out at you). I would cc to his email address so there can be no confusion possible.

This is more a matter of form than anything else - I don't expect it to make any difference.
 
 
Grey Area
12:04 / 16.08.04
OK, so that guy's popping up, throwing out a URL and leaving is spam. What about Lord Morgue's comic promoting thread in the Convo? Does the fact that he...contributes...on a regular basis make his thread any less spammy? And if we were to erase it or shift it to the Creation, shouldn't the same standard apply to Orr/Whiskey Prietess's thread about their Edinburgh fringe performance?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:45 / 16.08.04
I'd say there is a difference between people turning up to advertise and people drawing the attention of others (who they have established some connection with) to stuff.

I'm interested to know what 'lithers are up to. I don't necessarily care about some random guy/girl I've never had any contact with, or reason to think about, doing stuff.

In short, it's polite to say "hello" first. Which both Morgue and Orr have.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:46 / 16.08.04
I think the fact that Morgue, or Matsya or Sax do contribute to the board in other ways makes a difference, else all the people that have dones threads about finding GM interviews would be in the same mess as ADD. If he came into Barbelith and engaged in other discussions then I'd have no real problem with him pointing to his reviews elsewhere.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:09 / 16.08.04
I agree entirely. Unless I blinked and missed it, ADD hasn't contributed a single post to the board that wasn't a link to his own site. He's not even interested in inviting discussion of the stuff he's linking to, just in using the place as a way to bump his site stats. He probably has a habit of walking into strangers' houses and eating their food.

Whisky, Orr and Morgue, on the other hand, do more than just pimp their own work. They're active members of the community and, as such, it's entirely reasonable to presume that they're not just here for the free meal, and that people will actually give a shit about their off-Lith activities.
 
 
Grey Area
17:13 / 16.08.04
Grand so. Just wanted to have it clarified.
 
 
Bed Head
12:40 / 06.09.06
*bump*

Okay, so it’s not as important as any of the other why-and-when-to-delete-posts stuff that’s being discussed at the moment, but... looking for a Policy-type consensus on when something *is* spam these days, and as such when it’s okay to just go ahead and delete it, specifically in the Gathering.

So, there’s this. It’s not about Caleigh-the-person, I think boboss is just almost certainly losing his rag in his post there rather than seriously suggesting there’s any case for banning, but, for whatever reason, this particular user has been dropping by barbelith for years now simply in order to plug things happening in NY. Mostly motherfucker, but sometimes other stuff. Maybe not such a problem for Gathering, in my opinion, when it’s all contained in a single catch-all ‘stuff happening in New York’ thread. But recently ze is starting new topics for each one of these things.

Now, maybe I’m wrong here, but I just don’t think the Gathering is a listings magazine. New York already has listings magazines, doesn’t it? That section of barbelith is called the Participation and I think it’s sorta for organising things. Community things - mostly for organising, well, gatherings with other lithers at interesting events, and also for letting other people here know what you’ve been organising if you’re a member of the community and are doing something interesting - Do Dirt, ICFTS, art exhibitions, Morning Bride gigs, or whatever. It’s primarily for the use of the community, for community-type stuff. My objection to the thread I linked to above is that the topic starter has shown no interest in meeting anyone from barbelith. Or talking to anyone from barbelith on barbelith (“if you want information, go to the GenesisP-Orrige website”). And if that’s the level of contribution that we’re accepting in the Gathering, I don’t see what’s stopping anyone from just turning up and posting adverts, frankly.



So, I think that a move to delete the Psychic Tv thread has been disagreed with twice now, certainly once, and I don’t know if that’s because fly and Pegs and Mystery Gypt had already posted or what, but I think there’s A Discussion to be had here, just so I’m sure. (Also - whoever disagreed on those occasions hasn’t felt it necessary to then fix the link in the first post, or add a topic abstract, ie the usual basic-requirement stuff that I thought topics kinda need. Whoever wants it to stay could at least take 30 seconds to tidy the thing up, surely?)
 
 
Caleigh
12:53 / 06.09.06
I put up a link to an event that, considering that Barbelith is a alt-culture and magickal oriented site, many 'Lithers would be interested in. If ANY members contacted me saying they were going and how could we meet up I would reply. That didn't happen. Maybe PTV are now considered irrelevant musically and culturally. I don't but hey, I'm over 30.

To be honest, I don't post alot to Barbe because I don't like to go on about my personal life in a public forum. I try and inform members of this community to events that I think would be interesting to them but they might overlook or not be aware of.

I don't link to commercial sites. I don't advertise products. I post links to cultural events that I think the community will be interested in.

If anyone from Barbelith contacts me about meeting up at these events. I do. I have cultivated quite a number of friendships that way but isn't this a two way street? I post an event listing, letting people know when and where I will be, if they want to meet up they can say "Hey, I'm interested, where can we meet up before?"

I consider putting up the posting on this site invitation in and of itself to others to meet up at said event. It's not an anonymous post, there is a link to a private message function, which I invite people to use.
 
 
Bed Head
13:04 / 06.09.06
If ANY members contacted me saying they were going and how could we meet up I would reply. That didn't happen.

Well, Mystery Gypt asked who was going, in the thread. You haven’t responded to him in the thread so far. Flyboy asked for details. You couldn’t be bothered to write a response, beyond telling him to look at the website.

So, really. If you’re not talking, conversing, with other people, with yr own words, in sentences, on barbelith itself, about these cultural events and things, if you’re just redirecting people off the site to information on other websites, then how is this not making Gathering into a listings magazine?
 
 
Olulabelle
15:20 / 06.09.06
I agree with Bed. It's fine to start a thread about a thing, if you plan on conversing in thread with the people who post to it. Two people asked you direct questions in the thread which, as Bed pointed out, you didn't answer. But it's your own thread dude, you should have your eye on it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:10 / 06.09.06
You couldn't even be bothered making it into a bloody link. I'm struggling to think of a less informative method of "letting people know" anything.
 
  

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