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Designing A Japanese Tattoo

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:29 / 23.02.04
Can I beat up non-Goths who wear ankhs?
 
 
illmatic
13:43 / 23.02.04
People will always borrow each other cultural symbols without giving deep consideration to their significance or thinking about the implications. Other people will always pontificate about this on internet message boards.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:55 / 23.02.04
Riiight, because all the English language t-shirts, signs and tattoos in Japan are totally well thought out and not at all simply adornment and fashion.

Yes, and it's also important to remember that a lot of those t-shirts flooding the eastern markets are the detritus of Western excess. More often than not, they are just recycling our trash. It's not much like the Asian character tattoo phenomenon at all.
 
 
Baz Auckland
16:00 / 23.02.04
As ibis said on the last page: Well, that's a fine attitude for a movie or a t-shirt, but maybe not so much for a permanent tattoo?

I think t-shirts are allowed and are a completely different idea from a tattoo... t-shirts are much funnier, cheaper, and less embarrasing if you end up with a 'crispy' tattoo...
 
 
Cat Chant
16:27 / 23.02.04
Probably more one of symmetry. "If its ok for others, why isn't it ok for me?"

But where's the bit where we decided it was ok for others?
 
 
mixmage
17:02 / 23.02.04
Hey... It's not like he was gonna get "Halal" inked onto his cock.

In fact an awful lot of chaos magick would probably fall under the 'cultural tourist' heading...

Agreed. So... what if I design a sigil to look like oriental script (just to push it one step further from recognition) then have it tattooed in a visible place... just so people see it? Passive Charging, or whatever.

Or... how about I choose a phrase that might help my pulling, then "sigilise" it by using a foreign script? Will I have Better Luck?

English is sadly lacking in ideograms, so if you need to borrow one from time to time, and it's graphically interesting enough to wear on your skin 'til you're 80, then why not?

Fair enough. Personally, I don't wear anything I don't understand: T-shirts, tattoos, the lot. I've even got a candle I was given years ago and never lit, because I don't know what the symbol on it means.

But that's me. I try not to judge people from the way they choose to adorn themselves. Should that be pre-judge, since I'm making a snap decision about their entire being just from their outward appearance?

"hmmm... which of my pet-hate stereotypes are you?"

Actually, I support Mike-O and folks like him, because getting a tattoo of this nature would make him immediately identifiable as a turbodouche supreme, which can be helpful for the rest of us.

Even if it's out of sight on his shoulder blade?

How much research do you have to do before you are allowed?

I think he should get a black belt in karate first.


Gotcha... would they still be a "highly-punchable cultural tourist", or would the chance they'd kata your ass all over the mat change your mind? Then Jap-tatz would be cool, no?

So... it seems I'd have been eligible, back in my training days. Unfortunately, not one of my esteemed teaching colleagues could understand any Japanese that wasn't a technique... or even those terms when written.


Bravo to Illmatic - perhaps I shoulda just agreed instead of posting.
 
 
40%
18:07 / 23.02.04
It's just occurred to me that the trainers I wear most of the time have Chinese Symbols on the heels, and I've not got around to finding out what they mean in almost a year. Pretty slack of me. They're Wu Wear shoes, so they probably say "Protect Ya Neck" or something like that. But I should find out. Next time I go to my local takeaway.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
21:19 / 23.02.04
I've just realised that I'm wearing a My Dying Bride sweatshirt, I know nothing about the band, I don't like their music and I bought it because it was warm, cheap and had a pretty blue butterfly on it it. I'm now terrified that Mordant's going to beat me up.

I'm getting mixed signals betwixt this and Lost In Translation thread.
 
 
The Falcon
23:12 / 23.02.04
Why not do an Oriental-type lettering sigil, Mike-O? 'S all pictograms anyway.

It'd be more rewarding. Do a bit of research, do yer design, get the look, and it's your own, white, work.

I used to contemplate a Wu-Tang tattoo. Does that make me shit?
 
 
Char Aina
23:18 / 23.02.04
yes.
same as a biohazard tattoo.
almost the same as a black flag tattoo.
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
23:43 / 23.02.04
Yes, and it's also important to remember that a lot of those t-shirts flooding the eastern markets are the detritus of Western excess.

Not necessarily, English is often used on Japanese products simply because of how the text looks...




 
 
Spatula Clarke
00:04 / 24.02.04
To be fair, those are fucking brilliant tees regardless of their origin. And it's not just about how the text looks - it's also about how it sounds. Having text on a tee that can be read and understood (even if only vaguely) by the majority of people reading it is ever so slightly different than getting a permanent tat that nobody you know can understand without you having to explain it to them, and then only because you had it explained to you.

Why not just design yourself a tat which contains the words "better luck tomorrow" in English? That way, you avoid the need to affect an air of personal depth when translating it for others and prevent yourself from looking like a pretentious twat.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
00:32 / 24.02.04
Or, how about you just select a few random kanji yourself? You can still tell people that it means "better luck tomorrow" - just because you're not going to be any the wiser, doesn't mean they are either. Saves somebody else the bother of having to purposefully mistranslate in order to make you look like a cock, too.
 
 
diz
01:05 / 24.02.04
Yes, and it's also important to remember that a lot of those t-shirts flooding the eastern markets are the detritus of Western excess. More often than not, they are just recycling our trash. It's not much like the Asian character tattoo phenomenon at all.

i think the reference was more to things like this.

re: Wu-Tang Clan... there's clearly a lot of appropriation of Asian tropes there. is this cultural tourism, or, to be blunt, is it OK because they're black?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:39 / 24.02.04
It's a different thing because it's tied in with playing a character in a wider context and not just a meaningless appropriation for the sake of it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:43 / 24.02.04
Actually, if there's a case to be answered there it's probably one about the use of crass stereotypes. Still a different issue.

(apologies for the repeated posting, but it's quicker than waiting for a mod action to go through at this time of night)
 
 
Olulabelle
08:31 / 24.02.04
BeJAYsus.

Our whole society is teeming with so many 'cultural tourism/cross culture' references that no-one even notices anymore. We've got fast food outlets and 'drive thru's' and Starbucks and sitting in the street on metal chairs a la Parisian Café society style. We have Sushi bars, and Manga characters and adverts on the TV featuring Asian men beating up their cars in order to get them to look more like the Western one in the picture they saw. We learn Tai Chi and Kung Fu and little boys take Judo classes at school. The Japanese choose western models to sell clothes because they prefer the 'look', the girls die their hair blonde to emulate Britney and have boob jobs to look more western and heaps of people all over the world (who are not British, let alone from Manchester) support Manchester United.

We eat Pizza, we know what Calzone is and Tapa's and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that 50% of the population of Britain thought that curry was a British dish.

Wanting a tattoo made up of Japanese characters is no worse (or better) than any of the other cultural mixing that is everywhere these days. That's what happens when there are 498 billion channels of television and flights to anywhere and videophones and email and the internet and, and...

What? Are we really all supposed to define ourselves entirely within our own culture, and go out of our way to avoid anyone elses? Blimey. I guess you better put me down for only ever eating pie and mash, only ever reading British authors and only ever watching Eastenders in future then.
 
 
illmatic
08:48 / 24.02.04
yup... and it's not just today, I think we've probably been doing this kind of borrowing ever since we evolved enough to trade with each other.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
08:56 / 24.02.04
"not just a meaningless appropriation for the sake of it."

I could be wrong but this appears to have meaning to Mike O. When did aesthetics become meaningless by the way?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:23 / 24.02.04
Falcon: me too. Anyone who thinks that's at all like a Biohazard or Black Flag tattoo just has shit taste in music. But I decided against it for the same reason I decided against the Le Tigre tattoo - you should never get a band name or logo inked onto yr skin until after they've split up. Just in case they go seriously downhill. Of course, they could always reform anyway...
 
 
Cat Chant
09:28 / 24.02.04
50% of the population of Britain thought that curry was a British dish.

Um... curry is a British dish. The word is an Anglicization of an Indian-language* word for "black pepper" and has absolutely no meaning in any Indian/Pakistani/Kashmiri culinary traditions. Some of the most popular "curries" in Britain - chicken tikka massala and balti, to name but two - were invented in Britain, by chefs who were presumably British citizens.

Fish and chips was introduced to Britain by Jewish immigrants at roughly the same time that the first "Indian" restaurant opened in London. Curry and fish'n'chips would thus appear to have equal claims to "Britishness".
 
 
Cat Chant
09:30 / 24.02.04
Forgot my footnote:

*don't know which language, sorry.
 
 
Jub
09:39 / 24.02.04
Olulabelle - I thought curry was a British dish - seriously. There's a Tamil word that's similar but I'm pretty certain that even the word is a British thing. Queen Victoria loved it apparently. Apparently Chicken Tikka Masala is unheard of in India - it was invented by a quick thinking chef to appease some guy who wanted some sauce. Not to mention that it is Britain's most popular dish!
 
 
Jub
09:53 / 24.02.04
dammit Deva!

Note to self: check preview before posting to make sure no one has said more articulately what you are about to post.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:44 / 24.02.04
hey, BOTH of you beat me to it.

(Interesting footnote vis-a-vis curry... whereas all the curry houses in London are called, like, the Bengal Tandoori or something... 'twas cool to see in New York that there's one called Brick Lane!)

And on the whole fish'n'chips thing... we didn't even have potatoes until Drake! So, as far as I can see, BOTH the British national dishes are thanks to others. Which is a GOOD THING, imho, insofar as one of the things I like about the UK is that, despite all the odds, we manage to "do" multiculturalism better than you'd expect- not perfectly, by a long shot, but I occasionally get a slight twinge of faith in human nature when walking around London. (Although I've just noticed a possible parallel to be drawn between imperialism and "cultural tourism"... devilsadvocatethingyGO!)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:56 / 24.02.04
I could be wrong but this appears to have meaning to Mike O.

In that he likes the saying. Again, if that's the case then designing his own tat containing the English phrase seems like the most effective way of using it. Having it translated into a script that you don't understand renders it meaningless - provided that your reason for wanting it is the phrase itself and not the script.

If, on the other hand, it's mainly a question of aesthetics, then you may as well select some random kanji - the ones you likes the look of most - and stick them together. Or create your own.

Are we really all supposed to define ourselves entirely within our own culture, and go out of our way to avoid anyone elses?

Again, asking somebody else to find the relevant characters because you can't be arsed to do it yourself (and it's probably as bloody simple as tapping a few words into google or going to amazon.co.jp and searching for 'A Better Tomorrow' in DVD's) isn't exactly an attempt to define yourself within another culture, or making any attmept whatsoever to understand that culture. It's looking for a nice logo to stamp yourself with - nothing more.

Should it be anything more than that? I don't know.

One more point on the Japanese use of written English. I suspect that there's an issue here about cultures that themselves use different scripts for their own languages, but I'm not sure what it is. Possibly somebody else'll want to run with it.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:59 / 24.02.04
Jub - the word is kari - thanks for letting me know it's Tamil (and hey, check out those post times! We Brits are very hot to defend our national cuisine, it seems.)

Stoat - I love the Brick Lane curry house! And yes, I love how "national" and "immigrant" have the potential to just not be opposed to each other in Britishness. But tell me more about the relation between colonialism and cultural tourism? Is that because we only got curry by, you know, invading and dominating the country of its ultimate origin? That would be interesting to think about...
 
 
diz
15:32 / 24.02.04
It's a different thing because it's tied in with playing a character in a wider context

i think this is a pretty dubious distinction, at best. it's OK if you're playing a character?

i'm not even sure that i accept the basic assertion - that the Wu-Tang appropriation of a sort of pop-culture Asian martial arts thing can really be reduced to simply "playing a character." there's definitely an element of theatricality there, sure, but i don't think that's all there is to it. i think that part of the genius of the Wu-Tang aesthetic is their conflation of the mental discipline of the rapper with the mental discipline of martial arts and the mental discipline of the Five Percenter. the Wu style brings all these disparate images together into one, cohesive image of a street-smart warrior/rapper figure. they treat prowess in physical combat and gangsta shit and prowess on the mic and the struggle for black liberation in the most mental and abstract senses (the liberation of the black mind, in a very real sense) as a the same thing, that life in Shaolin (both the physical city and the idealized mental plane) is a series of puzzles to be solved by the well-honed mind of that figure. in that way, the image of the Eastern mystic/martial artist is not simply active on a theatrical level, but rather it's deployed in a sort of visualization exercise for inner liberation and triumph over external obstacles (which are basically the same thing). it's deeply, deeply ingrained in every aspect of the Wu project and i don't think this really addresses that in that i think that the appropriation involved is deeper and more significant.

and not just a meaningless appropriation for the sake of it.

so, who determines whether something is "meaningful" enough (and to whom?) for it to be "valid," then? for it to not be cultural tourism?

and which is a more significant act of appropriation: adopting something for "shallow" aesthetic reasons, or claiming a deep tie to a culture that's not your own? who's committing the graver offense, if you want to look at it as an offense: the European socialite wearing a silk dress with Chinese dragons embroidered on it, or the Irish-American poet who claims to be carrying on a mystic tradition that incorporates the work of both Rumi and Basho, and claims authority to speak on behalf of that tradition?

let me go on record as saying that, in general, i think kanji tattoos on white folks at this particular juncture in time and space are kind of tacky. howevever, memes spread. that's just what they do, and while i share some degree of apprehension about the appropriation and colonialization and blah-blah-blah, i don't know that it's a worthwhile investment of time and mental energytying ourselves up in knots over something that, basically, is going to happen whatever we think about it.

also, i'm wary of falling into the "Noble Savage" trap: that Other Cultures are somehow pure, pristine, and, crucially, static and unchanging, before the crassly commercial Western appropriators show up. it's important to recognize that "authenticity" is as much of a cultural construction as anything else, and casting the cultures which are subject to appropriation as passive, static traditionalist victims is perhaps worse than the alternatives.
 
 
ibis the being
15:45 / 24.02.04
hey, what happened to Mike-O in all this? still there?
 
 
Cat Chant
16:22 / 24.02.04
ibis - isn't he off getting tattooed?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:08 / 24.02.04
diz: See my other posts after that one.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:26 / 24.02.04
Everyone: I feel stupid about curry now.
 
 
diz
19:34 / 24.02.04
Everyone: I feel stupid about curry now.

well, if it makes you feel any better, i didn't know any of that either. i'm sure we aren't the only two.

EDIT: i fucked up the HTML, too.
 
 
Cat Chant
22:03 / 24.02.04
Olulabelle: The curry thing kinda proves your point, though, which is that there isn't a clear distinction between "Indian" and "British". Plus it let me and stoatie and jub show off. So everyone's a winner!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:36 / 24.02.04
Actually, I don't think it *does* prove olulabelle's point, which was as far as I can tell that any attempt to impose boundaries (and these are not boundaries of *action*, only of perception: nobody is trying to lgislate against Mike-0 getting a tattoo, only describing whether they think that tattoo is a good idea) on how cultures approach the artefacts of other cultures is reaction. I don't think that is necessarily the case. In fact, I would argue that Mike-O's idea - of using Japanese characters as a way of making the concept expressed by his tattoo more *picturesque* - is following a line back to, most obviously, the habit of wealthy Englishmen to coelct chunks of Italian masonry or Greek statuary and bung it into their houses to provide grace notes, or possibly the grand Victorian tradition of buying books by the yard for the homes of the nouveau riche - pretending to a knowledge not actually possessed through acts of monetary exchange.

As such, curry doesn't really work as a comparison. One basically knows what curry *is* - you can't really appropriate it as a concept or use it as a claim of hidden knowledge. Likewise, the question of aesthetics:

When did aesthetics become meaningless by the way?

Presumes that one can make aesthetic distinctions when one does not actually yet know what the tattoo will look like, which strikes me as a bit hard to justify.

Oddly enough, there was an episode of "Braceface" about precisely this question...
 
  

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