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Michael Jackson arrest warrant

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Ganesh
23:40 / 31.01.05
*bump*

So... are we all wearing white, then?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:55 / 01.02.05
You bring the suit, I'll bring the Werther's...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:12 / 10.03.05
Just when you thought it couldn't turn into any more of a soap opera...
 
 
sleazenation
17:49 / 10.03.05
If Jackson tries a similar stunt in future he should be held in contempt...
 
 
grant
18:57 / 10.03.05
Actually, after showing up late in court today (complained of back pains, stuck at the doctor) he's in danger of losing his bond, which I think means time in the slammer.
Which would be *interesting*.
 
 
sleazenation
19:15 / 10.03.05
Interesting indeed.

What would the provisions for a famous prisoner accused of sex crimes actually be?
 
 
_Boboss
10:53 / 11.03.05
borstal?
 
 
Ganesh
13:08 / 11.03.05
If Jackson tries a similar stunt in future he should be held in contempt...

It seems like a rather pathetic rich-enough-to-buy-professional-corroboration adult version of the 'abdominal migraines' and other dodgy pseudo-illnesses that manifest in children around the time of tests, exams and, in my case, physical education. I'm just glad that, this time, the hospital staff didn't play ball, just issued a bemused-sounding 'he was here, yes, but fuck knows why' statement.

Face the music, Wacko; you're a big boy now.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:41 / 11.03.05
Face the music, Wacko; You're a big boy now.

If Elvis' last days had been played out on Fox News and the Public Access Channel, and any redtop going, he'd still have seemed like Barney in comparison - I've never been a fan of the man or his methods, but if Jackson gets time for this, it's possibly going to be the most sordid and harrowing public downfall since... well no one else, honestly, springs to mind. It'll be as if a (far worse) version of Fatty Arbuckable was reanimated in the form of Mickey Mouse in the Disneyland empire, and allowed free play of his priapic powers, for decades...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:20 / 12.03.05
Has there been any follow-up/corroboration of the stories mid-week that Jackson is broke? It sounded to me like, if true, he's been set up by his lawyers to be broke in that way that only rich people can, namely all his assets given to someone else so he won't be able to pay any fine but still gets to live in Neverland with his sherbet fountains and swimming pool of 'Jesus juice'.

Seeing as he supposedy settled out of court last time because he found the idea of a court case too distressing, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he's psychosomaticking big time...

It would surely be wise for Jackson's team to try and work out something to get around this, rather than continue to piss the judge off with wasting time each day wondering whether Jackson is going to show? After all, hasn't about a third of the time since the trial began been lost due to Jackson being too ill to attend?
 
 
doozy floop
14:53 / 13.03.05
Has there been any follow-up/corroboration of the stories mid-week that Jackson is broke?

This is nothing but anecdotal, but when I worked at a Large and Famous London Shop, many staff members fondly remembered the time that Jackson stopped by to do a spot of shopping...

Obviously the shop was closed down for him to browse in peace, and he took items to the value of multiple thousands of pounds while his people provided a billing address.

To date, he still hasn't paid for them.

Which proves nothing really, but I don't think I'd lend him a tenner...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
03:54 / 14.03.05
I'm not sure myself, and I think about this a lot, but what's the general consensus ? Is Jackson guilty ? And if he is, is he going to get away with it, this time ?
 
 
Smoothly
09:53 / 14.03.05
I strongly suspect he will be found guilty, but who knows. Does he have any ill-fitting gloves?
The more I see of the evidence, the more sympathy I have for him though. The accounts of the relevant sleep-overs do sound like pretty standard juvenile fare. Illicit drinking, giggling over porno mags, risqué banter, some fumbled masturbation. This probably isn't the kind of thing many people would get so worked up about if all the participants were children. The difference here, of course, is that Jackson is an adult, but there's a part of me that wants to put that in inverted commas. It's hard to think of MJ as being an adult. Psychologically and emotionally, to what extent is he grown-up? He's Richie Rich, isn't he? There might be little or no evidence of psychiatric illness, but pretty much every scene in the Bashir documentary argued that he is a child in everything but biological age. Really, what's the diff?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:13 / 14.03.05
Really, what's the diff?

Well, the ability to exercise influence. That's huge between Jackson and anyone but between a child and anyone who's lived for Michael Jackson's amount of time on the planet there's a big difference. He's gained power through living, even if it's a marginally different world he's living in. Power is what makes a relationship fundamentally abusive.
 
 
Bed Head
10:24 / 14.03.05
Yes. Children have parents, who do the job of reining them in, and MJ doesn’t. Kids aren’t jailed for being naughty because it’s the parents who take responsibility for punishing them/teaching them better. Uh, I think that's kinda how it works.

And surely part of being a kid is having that relationship with authority. Although MJ spends a lot of time doing this quivering-lipped childlike shtick, he’s not really childlike at all, is he? Because he's always in charge. He just likes pretending otherwise.
 
 
Smoothly
10:25 / 14.03.05
Well, he's been powerful and influential since he was five years old. He's not so much gained power by living, but by being wealthy and famous. Lots of children have power and influence over other children. Would mutual masturbation sessions between the 12-year-old me and a rich and charismatic contemporary have been abusive?
 
 
Smoothly
10:35 / 14.03.05
But, Bed Head, not all children *do* have parents who rein them in. The fact that MJ has been spoiled and indulged to such an extent is regrettable, certainly, and the cause of much of his emotional retardation quite possibly. But we seem to be judging him pretty harshly given his circumstances.
 
 
Bed Head
11:07 / 14.03.05
Hm, I dunno, man. I’d reckon pretty much all kids have someone who is bigger and more powerful than them, and they’re aware of their place in relation to the authority figure, even if that authority isn’t ever exercised. Okay, maybe not Richie Rich, but he’s not real. Every rich kid I’ve ever known has a rich parent who can take the money away. Even if they don’t.

I’m certainly not without sympathy. I just think perhaps it’s missing something to call him childlike.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:45 / 14.03.05
I don't think it's missing something to call him childlike but I think it's incredibly important to perceive the difference between childlike and child. The point being that however badly Jackson might want to behave like a child, he isn't one and as an adult he has to behave in accord with the responsibilities he has been granted. If he was a child he would not have that house, that theme park, the objects that he buys.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:48 / 14.03.05
But personally I think he's on the edge and should be seeing a psychiatrist, as all people who shroud their children in public should.
 
 
Smoothly
12:13 / 14.03.05
In my experience it was the poor kids who were under parented, Bed, but that's not really the important thing. Fact is, MJ now is coming up against someone bigger and more powerful than himself - and about time too. The point I'm making is that his extraordinary circumstances seem to be counting little as mitigation. Had he been a lumbering idiot man-child who enjoyed the company of children more than people the same biological age, I suspect a Tom Hanks movie would be made of it.
I suppose the question I'm asking, Nina, is what elements of adulthood are relevant here? Biological age? Intellectual competence? Emotional maturity? The money has allowed him to remain in a state of arrested psychological develpment (and outsource pretty much all adult responsibilities, as far as I can tell), but other than that it seems to be a distraction. I ask you, if he were a child - a child of very rich and irresponsible parents who allowed him the freedom to entertain friends unsupervised and with privacy - would his activities elicit the same condemnation? If not, why not? Because his cells are aged? What? Tell me, what *is* the difference between being childlike (to this extent) and being a child?
 
 
Ganesh
12:52 / 14.03.05
Tell me, what *is* the difference between being childlike (to this extent) and being a child?

Well, the physical differences go beyond having "aged cells": he has the physical size and strength of an adult; he is sexually mature in the sense of having developed secondary sexual characteristics; he (presumably) has the sex drive of an adult rather than that of a child. He would also have the physical/authoritative presence of an adult - and children would respond to that, no matter how childlike he were.

Having attained physical/sexual maturity, one might reasonably assume him to have developed a degree of intellectual and emotional maturity greater than that of a child - although this is arguably moot. One assumes that, if he's been considered sufficiently 'adult', psychologically speaking, to consent to surgery and instruct a solicitor, then he's more intellectually/emotionally mature than a child - assuming he's not markedly learning-disabled or cognitively-impaired in any gross way.

Perhaps most relevant here are the legal rights and responsibilities which separate 'child' from 'childlike adult' within our culture. As an adult, he has the right to legally drink alcohol or purchase pornography; the flipside is that (again, in the absence of gross intellectual impairment or major mental illness - neither of which appear to be present) he's considered to be responsible for his actions and behaviour, in a way a child isn't.
 
 
Smoothly
13:31 / 14.03.05
Weighing all of 8.5st, 'the physical size and stregth of an adult' is also moot. I wouldn't have thought a stocky 12 year old would find him particularly intimidating, physically. And myabe I'm unusal, but my sex drive at the age of 12 was probably greater than it is now.

One assumes that, if he's been considered sufficiently 'adult', psychologically speaking, to consent to surgery and instruct a solicitor, then he's more intellectually/emotionally mature than a child

Well, that's questionable, isn't it. IIRC, on one of the various recent MJ documentaries, a legion of plastic surgeons came out to say that they would not have carried out many of the surgeries that Jackson accumulated, and that much of the work was undertaken irresponsibly. There's stacks of evidence to suggest that he's not been making adult decisions in most areas of his life.

Clearly his legal status is that of an adult. I'm not arguing that he should just be grounded, lose his pocket money and be on his way home. It's more our attitude to him that I'm questioning, and the fact that his celebrity and financial circumstances seem to work against him so. It just strikes me that his 'weirdness' is seen as entirely damning and not in any way mitigating - even on a moral rather than legal level. I remember Bashir furrowing his brow theatrically at MJ and saying 'But *I* wouldn't let children sleep in the same bed as me', when quite clearly he wouldn't live in a fucking fun-fair or seek the friendship of chimps either.
 
 
Ganesh
15:33 / 14.03.05
Weighing all of 8.5st, 'the physical size and stregth of an adult' is also moot.

No, it's not. Whatever his weight, he has the physical proportions of an adult rather than a child.

I wouldn't have thought a stocky 12 year old would find him particularly intimidating, physically.

Which is a separate point, really, from the one I was making. You asked how 'childlike' differed from 'child' and I pointed out that a childlike adult is physically different from a child. Whether one could overpower the other is another question.

The fact is, he is physically adult, and this would, I think, be recognisable to any child. This creates an unequal dynamic within any adult-child relationship, and when the adult in question happens to possess phenomenal power in terms of material resources (he can not only buy anything the kid wants, he can buy anything the kid's parents want) and a retinue of other adults willing to reinforce any decision he makes... well, don't think a relationship with Jackson is in any way comparable to a child-child relationship.

And myabe I'm unusal, but my sex drive at the age of 12 was probably greater than it is now.

Perhaps you are unusual. If we're getting anecdotal, my sex drive at 12 was probably lesser than it is now, and also a good deal less focussed.

Well, that's questionable, isn't it. IIRC, on one of the various recent MJ documentaries, a legion of plastic surgeons came out to say that they would not have carried out many of the surgeries that Jackson accumulated, and that much of the work was undertaken irresponsibly.

There are very specific tests of capacity to consent or withold consent to surgery, as there are to assess ability to face court proceedings. I'm not doubting that, within a private medicine framework, some of Jackson's surgery was undertaken irresponsibly - but, legally, his capacity to consent would've had to be repeatedly assessed.

There's stacks of evidence to suggest that he's not been making adult decisions in most areas of his life.

Depends what one means by "adult" here. If we mean grossly irresponsible, eccentric, unwise, stupid decisions then yes - but it's only the enormous, insulating cocoon of his wealth that distinguishes him in this from the majority of other human beings.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:32 / 14.03.05
Speaking as a professional fence-sitting, skirt-wearing librarian it is my considered opinion that by how the law defines it Jackson is guilty, by how he justifies it in his head he's not only not guilty but couldn't even think of hurting a child.
 
 
Ganesh
17:10 / 14.03.05
There's also the issue of experience: Jackson has existed on this planet for approximately three decades longer than many of his playmates, and there's evidence to suggest he's been in not-dissimilar situations several times over the years, with successive 'rounds' of early-teenage boys (who he subsequently drops); by now, he must have a fairly good idea of which carrots and sticks work. He's therefore likely to be rather more practised at certain forms of manipulation than most children. By contrast, a 13-year-old befriending Jackson is likely to be overwhelmed by novelty, and thus on an unequal footing. It's also worth pointing out that some of his young playmates might be considered vulnerable for other reasons.

Intellectually? Well, unlike the earlier Forrest Gump example, Jackson is not - to the best of my knowledge - borderline learning-disabled. His IQ would, of course, be relatively easy to assess...

It's more our attitude to him that I'm questioning, and the fact that his celebrity and financial circumstances seem to work against him so.

Yes and no. They've also worked for him in the past, in the sense that he had the resources to pay his way out of facing the consequences of the Jordy Chandler affair. He's also been able to dictate the terms and conditions of his arrest in a manner generally denied to non-celebrities.

It just strikes me that his 'weirdness' is seen as entirely damning and not in any way mitigating - even on a moral rather than legal level.

Maybe not here, on Barbelith. Discussing Jackson in any wider arena, however, one frequently encounters the weird-but-harmless, had-a-tough-upbringing, not-really-a-paedophile argument. To many, 'inappropriate' + 'money' really does = 'eccentric'.

I remember Bashir furrowing his brow theatrically at MJ and saying 'But *I* wouldn't let children sleep in the same bed as me', when quite clearly he wouldn't live in a fucking fun-fair or seek the friendship of chimps either.

The more pertinent point being, if Bashir slept in the same bed as other people's children, he would have faced rather more by way of consequence, a helluva lot sooner.

To a certain extent, I recognise that Jackson's evidently stunted emotional development is, arguably, a mitigating factor - if only on a moral level. The same case could, of course, be made for the majority of adults who molest children, as they're more-likely-than-not to have been abused themselves, as children; in this non-ideal world, they are, however, still considered fully responsible for actions carried out as adults. From what I've read, however, it would appear that Jackson's capable of behaving like an adult when it suits him to do so; I'm therefore unsure to what extent I buy the 'poor emotional development' argument.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:13 / 14.03.05
Isn't the point that Michael Jackson is far more capable of asserting himself than a child. That he is more capable of taking control and thus abusing that control than the majority of twelve year olds? To talk about who is more physically domineering is to miss the point. It's like saying- that man was shorter and lighter than that woman and so he couldn't possibly have floored her.

It's more our attitude to him that I'm questioning, and the fact that his celebrity and financial circumstances seem to work against him so.

Well sure but I do find him weird. Not the theme park, that's fair enough nor the inviting of ill children
and charities in to his theme park. Also fair enough. Not the chimps who seem like extravagant pets to me (I talk to my cats like people. I would happily take them everywhere if they were so trained). What I find odd are his actions towards the press- he creates himself as this figure to look at (all dressed in white, almost messianic) than he hermetically seals himself away, feigns illness to get away from people who either worship or wish to destroy him, he attempts to escape the spectacle that he has made. He could have melted away but he chose not to now the drama of his life revolves around his own creation of himself and he consistently feeds that drama, instead of staying behind the windows, rolling his eyes at the screaming crowds of obsessives he takes his child on to the balcony in a shroud and hangs it over the railing.

I don't understand what you're arguing for Smoothly. Is he a person who makes his own decisions and is locked in a trap with the press or is he a childlike man who cannot handle his life? And if he is the latter how does that excuse him from the responsibilities that fall upon every sane adult? The responsibilities: money, a certain amount of recognition of the reality that comes with fame, press attention etc. Maybe Bashir wouldn't own a funfair but with that level of fame he'd know it was crazy to sleep in a bed with a child not related to him. That Michael Jackson doesn't know that is where the puzzlement about him comes in... has he no common sense, no perception of the slander the media is prepared to lay on anyone?

The point being that his 'weirdness' is so unfamiliar that it is rather frightening. This is a man who is not in touch with my reality at all- a lot of people aren't but they do understand what could get them in to trouble.
 
 
Ganesh
17:24 / 14.03.05
Also, I'm not sure that Jackson is "childlike". To get anecdotal again, the last time I remember being a 14-year-old boy, 14-year-old boys didn't tend to hold other 14-year-old boys' hands and talk about how much they loved them - certainly not on television. I don't think Jackson's Neverland fantasy play reflects the reality of childhood anymore than Hefner's Playboy Mansion reflects the reality of male-female sexual relations: both are the idiosyncratic fetish creations of fantastically rich men, staffed by well-paid playmates primed to indulge their whims. The Playboy Mansion's just a little more up-front about the transactions involved.

This leads to obvious problems if one tends toward Nina's suggestion that a psychiatrist ought to be involved, since any psychiatrist employed by Jackson would inevitably be compromised by being on the payroll. There's also the Madness of George III problem of attempting to 'treat' someone whose wealth and status overwhelmingly works against this. What Jackson needs is 'reality orientation'. It's beyond the ability of a single psychiatrist to even begin to provide this.
 
 
Ganesh
18:12 / 14.03.05
Isn't the point that Michael Jackson is far more capable of asserting himself than a child. That he is more capable of taking control and thus abusing that control than the majority of twelve year olds?

Yep - and "control" can be achieved in many, many ways more subtle than physically overpowering someone.

And if we're talking about people who're pristinely innocent, in the privacy of their own heads, of all wrong-doing, we'd likely have to include Tony Blair, Peter Sutcliffe and Harold Shipman.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
21:21 / 14.03.05
And Andrew Calo. Da-da-daaaaah... (ominous crash of thunder).

I'm finding Ganesh's dissection of the Jackson case fascinating, to be honest. There's so little considered discussion of his possible head-state apart from by rent-a-shrink hacks that I'm finding his remarks practically revelatory by comparison...
 
 
Smoothly
00:04 / 15.03.05
You asked how 'childlike' differed from 'child' and I pointed out that a childlike adult is physically different from a child.

Yeah, but I asked how being childlike was different from being a child *apart* from the physical aspects. I don't doubt that his playmates recognised that he was physically adult, but I was wondering about the other components of adulthood that were relevent here. Mental competence is one of those things, but I wondered if that couldn't be further divided. For example how relevent is educational under-development, what does his IQ matter, etc.

I take your point about the imbalance of power. Although I'm sure similar power dynamics could be set up within child-child relationships. I know I tend to cite fairly fantastic hypotheticals - but I think if MJ were Richie Rich, the reaction would be very different, and that that difference would be because Richie Rich is a *child*. There's something about childness that makes this kind sexual contact much more tolerable, and I suppose I've got to confess that I'm still not clear on what that is; why children can't be paedophiles. And because MJ does (it seems to me) exhibt many childlike qualities, that rubs up against this discussion.

So, MJ clearly has some power over these children, that's be hard to deny. If he wanted to groom children for sex then he has been in a pretty much prime position to do so. Perhaps, that is what Neverland is all about. I think that is how it is now seen by many people. (Incidentally, Ganesh, you must take a different Clapham Omnibus from me - I only really hear 'string im up' sentiments for people at large) But is it equally possible that he has never stopped living like a spoilt child and so enjoys these things in the same way a child does? See, his larger 'weirdness' rather steers me towards thinking that he's not a competent adult in (perhaps) important ways, from a moral standpoint. I take Ganesh's point about *legal* responsibility - but we're going to learn his legal status as a matter of course. However, he *doesn't* seem to learn his lessons, he *doesn't* seem to understand why people object to his sleep-overs... I'm not sure what examples there are of him behaving in an adult way when it suits him, but everything from his 'abdominal migraine' acts, to everything Nina mentioned make me think psychologically he's missing something that a man of his experience should have, and that perhaps that should be mitigating. I know that much the same can be said of lots of offenders but I'd make the same argument for them. (Hmmm, sounds a bit like a reverse catch-22 doesn't it? Don't dwell) As Ganesh says, you could mount a similar defense for pretty much anyone, although I'm pretty sure that Peter Sutcliffe, Harold Shipman and even Tony Blair understood that they were harming people (even if it was for the greater good), but I'm just not convinced that that's true of MJ.

So that's a robust defense. It's a good job he hasn't got me representing him in court.
 
 
grant
03:23 / 15.03.05
Here, an email from Harry Shearer:

It's probably no secret to anyone who knows me that I allowed myself to get obsessed about the O.J. Simpson trials, the second of which I covered for Slate.com (still available in the archives). I'm now almost equally obsessed, given the lack of cameras or myself in the courtroom, with the MJ trial. Last week's climax--in which, on the day his accuser was to level the most serious charge of molestation, Mr. Jackson (as only the NYTimes would call him at this point) visited a hospital for reported back trouble, and then showed up in court with messy hair and wearing pajama bottoms but full facial makeup--was as clear an indication as any of the true significance of these two trials. Jackson, you'll recall, arrived after the court-imposed deadline, and was punished by the judge with--revocation of bail? Denial of visitor privileges? No, with nothing. The kind of non-punishment that would clearly have not greeted a non-celebrity accused of similar crimes. What is fascinating about this trial, as about Simpson, is the eagerness of so much of America, pseudo-journalists included, to choose to observe them through the prism of race, rather than through the prism of celebrity. Race is this country's unhealed scar, we hear, but the history of the country is that race is often used to distract us from other, even less comfortable to acknowledge, distinctions--like class. Rich blacks get treated more like rich whites than either get treated like their poor brothers. Next time you see a poor defendant allowed to dance on the roof of a car outside the courthouse on his way home from a hearing, let me know.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
05:51 / 15.03.05
[off-topic]
Look, none of it's true, okay? Seen pictures of MJ recently? That's not little Mikey. Remember when he bought Merrick The Elephant Man's bones about 15 years back? Cloned him, y'see. And Merrick and his evil monkey have been keeping poor little Mikey Jackson in the basement while they go off a-noncing. And making increasingly shit records. Poor little Mikey.
[/off-topic]

Ahem. Sorry.

I feel terribly sorry for the man. Anyway you cut it, his life must be absolute hell. However, I also have a great deal of sympathy for Dennis Nilsen (again, a man whose intense loneliness and mental instability got him into a great deal of trouble- in his case this meant ACTUALLY provably killing a bunch of people rather than POSSIBLY having "interfered wiv da kids")- doesn't mean I don't think justice should have been served on him.

I know this has been said before, but I don't have a great deal of time for the kids' parents. If he's guilty, then by all means send him down for a very long time- it's the children's safety that's paramount here. But does the whiff of cash really exert that much of a hold over people that they'd unquestioningly give their child over to the ministrations of a man who they can't possibly have been unaware is... well, a little odd? Noncing aside, spending your formative years hanging out with a millionaire man-child can't really do a great deal in preparing you for adult life. Can it?

Whichever way this pans out, this entire palaver is terribly, terribly sad. I hope he didn't do it- obviously, it'd be much better for kids NOT to have been abused- but, speaking as someone on the entirely opposite end of the scale from Ganesh (ie, as a complete layman), any way you cut it, Mr Jackson needs help of SOME kind.
 
 
Loomis
08:34 / 15.03.05
he *doesn't* seem to learn his lessons, he *doesn't* seem to understand why people object to his sleep-overs

I'm not positive that this has been proved. One might conclude from the evidence that he *does* understand the objections; he simply disagrees with them. I don't see conclusive evidence that he is unaware that what he does is considered strange by many people. Quite possibly he just thinks they're wrong. Unfortunately for him, according to the law we are required to conform to the majority in certain areas of life, regardless of whether we think those norms are right.
 
 
Smoothly
09:07 / 15.03.05
I suppose I perceive innocence on some level because if his sleepovers and relationships with children have been about sex, his audacity just beggars belief.
 
  

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