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Religion

 
  

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Linus Dunce
11:51 / 06.08.03
Well, I think you all believe in God in some fashion. Not necessarily the man with the white beard, but all the same ...

In the atheist corner, we have those who don't believe in God, but believe in stuff like science and logic as immutable truth. To me, this says you believe in a higher order of things. In this, to me, you're just one step away from taking communion :-)

And love. You can dismiss love as merely a hormonal mechanism to aid the propogation of the species. Except that it so often has little to do with reproduction and distribution of food.

To make a logical comparison between God and little green sex-pixie unicorns is a little like saying a nuclear power station is nothing more than a child's toy steam engine. While both are true, they are reductive and emotive similes that belie a deeper, "irrational" feeling of right and wrong. Again, this is the stuff of which "God" is made.

While we have the CoE and all the rest twitching and squawking over a shock-horror-who'd-have-thought-it gay bishop while at the same time neglecting to provide a proper, grown-up spiritual life even for those whom they can agree to include in the fold, this argument will replay itself over and over again, complete with the mutual incomprehension. Our clumsy disfranchising of a very important aspect of our lives leaves the door open to fundamentalism of all kinds, material and religious. It is sad.

I'm embarrassed that I have probably put words into mouths in this post. I should say I'm not a happy clapper -- I was just trying to show you mine.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:14 / 06.08.03
Quantum: the idea of intellectual effort, mental work etc as being part or symptomatic of a Protestant work ethic is in no way contradictory. Many belief systems rely on the idea of truth granted to oneself by revelation rather than truth reached through a process of intellectual hard-work - I think this is perhaps what alas was referring to.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
12:43 / 06.08.03
In the atheist corner, we have those who don't believe in God, but believe in stuff like science and logic as immutable truth. To me, this says you believe in a higher order of things. In this, to me, you're just one step away from taking communion :-)

I find this a rather odd assertion... to believe in science and logic to be "true" (and I, indeed, do consider this to be the case as far as anything can ever be granted that label) is to believe in a higher order of things, and therefore to believe in god? Surely that has no more reason than saying that to believe anything to be true, even something simple and obvious, such as, "If I walk into that wall, it will hurt," is to believe in god; the only apparent reason for considering science and logic to be a "higher order" is the fact that they are relatively complex, and things about which we don't know everything.

And love. You can dismiss love as merely a hormonal mechanism to aid the propogation of the species. Except that it so often has little to do with reproduction and distribution of food.

Would you like to look at that historically? While it may often be "irrational" in today's world, due to a variety of other complex factors, it doesn't mean that it isn't an emotional manifestation of a "need" which all species have always possessed. It's certainly done its job pretty well in the past as far as encouraging people to reproduce has been concerned, and I'm sure not so many people would be keen on having kids without it now; an emotional attachment to one's partner is usually required by most who desire to have children...

To make a logical comparison between God and little green sex-pixie unicorns is a little like saying a nuclear power station is nothing more than a child's toy steam engine. While both are true, they are reductive and emotive similes that belie a deeper, "irrational" feeling of right and wrong. Again, this is the stuff of which "God" is made.

And this, again, I'd consider a rather strange comparison. I can name a thousand ways in which a nuclear power station differs to a child's toy steam engine, but the argument is regarding the concept of god (as something "irrational" based on emotion and assertions) rather than the details, and any ways (out of the arguments seen thus far) in which one could validate the assertion of god's existence could surely just as easily be applied to an invisible green sex-pixie; I could say, "Oh, I have no 'rational' evidence of the sex-pixie's existence, but I feel that it is everywhere and because you can't feel what I feel, you can't discredit my belief."
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:27 / 06.08.03
Part of my point was that power stations are not toys. And we don't "need" love. We need air, water, carbohydrates, protein and a certain temperature range, and that's it.

To summarise, God, to me, is a metaphor. Or I'm a humanist. I haven't decided.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:48 / 06.08.03
Part of my point was that power stations are not toys.

But how does this relate to the god/sex-pixie argument? One could say, "god is man-like with a huge white beard, whereas the sex-pixie is a small green thing," but 'tis irrelevant; the argument relates to the differences between the concept of god versus the concept of sex-pixie, rather than the actual things themselves.

... Could we change back to the invisible pink unicorns for the metaphor? I prefer them to the sex-pixie...

And we don't "need" love. We need air, water, carbohydrates, protein and a certain temperature range, and that's it.

I didn't say we needed love... I said that it can easily be explained as an emotional manifestation of something we do "need", i.e. procreation, in order for the survival of the species (also note the use of inverted commas; the definition of "need" is highly subjective, and personally I certainly wouldn't be arguing that anyone "needs" to procreate... however, I use the term to refer to a basic biological "drive" of sorts present in all species).
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:08 / 06.08.03
The God/sex-pixie-invisible-pink-unicorn/power station/toy thing was about subjectivity couched in an ostensibly objective argument. There are many things that don't exist that could have been used for comparison, yet the choice was made to use something diminutive, absurd and laughable. If describing a power station as merely an oversized machine for heating water to produce steam to move a dynamo is unfair, then so is comparing the idea of God to a perverse fairy tale character. Hold on a minute, this point is not meant to stand on its own and this is hard for me because I've never really vocalised it before.

So, what I'm saying is, the idea of God is important as a metaphor for all the things that make us different from, say, yeast. Your, or anyone's, opinion on what those differences are may differ. (For me, it's not just a matter of complexity because even complexity is an unnecessary trait when your sole purpose is to eat, sleep and fuck.) These things, I think, used to be called sacred, though this word is too loaded to use much here and now. And that's why sex-pixies are an inappropriate comparison.

I don't believe in an old man with a white beard, with or without a thing against women, divorce and gay people. I think the universe is much too chaotic to have been designed. I just think that if you say there is no such thing as God, full stop, you are denying yourself the language to describe your own humanity, and that fault is instead with a church that refuses to move with the times. It always used to adapt itself. Why no more?
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:39 / 06.08.03
I just think that if you say there is no such thing as God, full stop, you are denying yourself the language to describe your own humanity, and that fault is instead with a church that refuses to move with the times.

Its hard to know how to respond to that (as an atheist) except to say that I disgree. I mean, I might equally say that if you believe in a god you deny yourself the language to describe your humanity by clinging to a mythological artifact of anthropomorphisation.

I don't really believe that, but my point is that there are lots of ways of looking at the world and it tends to be hard to justify one over others in any absolute sense.
 
 
alas
20:02 / 07.08.03
Flyboy articulated my earlier point much better than I did--so thanks, Flyboy, and apologies to Quantum, because my post did come across as reductionist, which wasn't my intent. I'm an academic, so I of course share a belief in working to articulate and support one's viewpoint, and impose that belief on my students. But, having worked my way through virtually all of the hoops academe has to offer, I'm also prone to question the intellectual work ethic that undergirds the system. (Hence my spending far too much time playing around on Barbelith when I should be padding my vita with academic research . . . !)

I read a scholarly article about a year ago called "Did Philosophers Have to Become Fixated on Truth?" that contrasts Eastern (specifically Chinese) Wisdom paths, which tend to focus on ethics, with the Western philosophical tradition, which has tended to center on Truth. I'm concerned that the almost exclusive focus on "truth" that I too learned in the Western tradition does cause serious problems, particularly a hubristic tendency within our culture to believe we've grasped the complexity of "reality" and that we understand cause/effect completely. That's not science's fault, and is even perhaps less true within the scientific community, which tends to be extremely careful about making broad claims, perhaps, but it's certainly true of many individual academics I've met and I believe it's true to the way this thought process is brought to bear within many Western political cultures, particularly during empire-building phases.

One of the gifts my own religious background gave me--along with a lot of pain and frustration and guilt and other nasty things I've had to work through with a series of qualified psychiatric professionals!--is a wariness of idolatry, which at its best warns cultures to be very careful when they reject the God of our ancestors, because once the concept of "faith" has developed in us, it's hard not to set up something else in the god-spot.

Our culture valorizes individualism and, therefore, requires an ideally arduous, process of reconsidering the beliefs of one's parents and one's community. We tend to see people who do not undergo that process as "lazy." However, while I have certainly benefited from that process of intellectual separation, and love the openess that has given me, at the same time, I can see the costs of that extreme individualism, and I wonder if, given the damage _my_ culture wreaks on the world as we know it, whether it is the best path?

I just don't think the humility of "I don't know for sure" is always, in fact, "laziness," as some have said of agnosticism. And, beyond that, I'm not sure that the "click" of recognition that occurs when an idea about the world seems "right" is a fully intellectual, or intellectualizable, moment. And I'm also, finally, interested in questioning the degree to which spiritual life is accessible through hard intellectual labor AND the degree to which it is antithetical to it. I THINK, my gut instincts tell me, that spiritual labor--doing meditation, etc.--is different in some way from intellectual labor.
 
 
Quantum
07:33 / 08.08.03
I don't want to say all agnostics are intellectually lazy (of course not), some have carefully considered the matter and decided there's no way to decide- fair enough.
Great post, alas, especially on idolatry.
I take your point about the costs of extreme individualism, but to blindly accept your parent's faith seems to me to be a mistake. Plenty of people adopt their religion out of habit, without ever thinking about it, and take it lightly. The people who go to church out of some vague sense of duty (Homer Simpson style) will not, I think, go to heaven- lip service isn't enough, surely.
Not to say challenging all accepted wisdom every generation is the best way, but a little thought goes a long way- even just thinking 'Is this for me?' can be enough.
.."the degree to which spiritual life is accessible through hard intellectual labor AND the degree to which it is antithetical to it"
I don't think rationality can provide a meaningful spiritual life, intellectual labour deals with a different realm to emotional/spiritual fulfilment IMO.
 
 
alas
20:58 / 09.08.03
. . . but to blindly accept your parent's faith seems to me to be a mistake.

I agree, but of course part of the "faith" of an individualistic culture IS in questioning everything. And now I'm questioning the value of questioning everything.

Help!
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:57 / 10.08.03
I don't think rationality can provide a meaningful spiritual life, intellectual labour deals with a different realm to emotional/spiritual fulfilment IMO.

For a start, rationality and intellectual labour are two different things. Largely, I think it depends what you mean by "spirituality". If one means contemplation and appreciation of art, literature and philosophy and a search for meaning then rationality is a useful thing to bring to it. If one means more straightforwardly religious sprirtuality, then you are probably right. But with the latter definition, it becomes much harder to argue that someone who isn't spiritual is lacking, as they may well be engaged in the former.

As for emotional fulfillment, I think rationality is helpful though obviously not to the exlusion of all else. Much as emotion is useful in intellectual labour.
 
 
Quantum
10:43 / 11.08.03
Oui oui, what I meant was along the lines of you can't decide who to fall in love with. Of course it's a mistake to seperate the two too much, but in the main I think religion is decided by emotion. You follow the one that feels right, not the one you think is right.
 
 
spidermonkey
11:56 / 11.08.03
Found this quiz the other day.

religion quiz

It's particularly fascinating if like me you don't consider yourself religious.

I came through as most likely to follow Theravada Buddhism!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:47 / 11.08.03
Mod hat: This link has been put in the Conversation before, and any further post describing what the poster has come up with through clicking rather than cogitation will be moved for deletion. Cheers.
 
 
spidermonkey
14:41 / 12.08.03
Sorry I wasn't aware of that rule.

I presumed the link would lead to further debate.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:38 / 12.08.03
And if it does, well and good. If it results in people saying "gosh, I'm a Unitarian Universalist too, what are the odds?", the thread will choke. Thinking, typing, Head Shop.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:25 / 13.03.06
I've been thinking for a while of kick-starting this thread, not least because it was Legba's first post (Baby Legba! So cute!), and wondered if people had any thoughts on how should we study religion, which is a very interesting and respectful discussion (and makes me wish I was free to go to Bristol on wednesday for the live debate).
 
 
elene
11:43 / 13.03.06
I know this thread is about religion, but it also touches on the issue of the existence of God, as does the discussion you link to, Lady.

It's clearly impossible to argue against something as vague as God the universe, or God the indifferent, or any of a large number of Gods who might be everything or it might be something else entirely.

I'm restricting myself to one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Hebrews and the Jews, the Samaritans, the Christians and the Muslims, of the Bahá'í and the Rastafari.

This God is believed to care deeply about at least some humans beings and to have interacted very directly with us through certain chosen individuals during the previous four millennia, starting with Abraham, the Jewish "father of many." Our actions either please or displease this God and winning displeasure can result in exposure to God's anger. This God actively seeks to instruct and gather a community of humans who please God in all they do.

This God is clearly capable of showing us God's nature in a very direct fashion, but prefers - for rather obvious reasons - that we have faith, that we believe.

I think this last point is crucial. One must have faith in God, one will not be shown God, God will not be reasonable. Abraham, instructed regularly by God's messengers, was nevertheless tested to the ultimate in faith. God's people are chosen by faith. One must love God.

Why would we argue for or against the possibility of this being. Either one has faith or one does not, and that is that. Knowing God in the sense of science and knowing God in the sense of faith are mutually exclusive.

Has someone another God to consider?
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:25 / 13.03.06
Why would we argue for or against the possibility of this being. Either one has faith or one does not, and that is that.

Some of us think that the grounds upon which we accept "existence" should be firmer than a subjective appreciation of an idea. I realise that there is room for confusion here, so that one might "believe in justice", say - that is, one might declare one's approval for an abstract idea. And thats fine, although one can't help but be suspicious of the potential for equivocation.

Atheists are often accused of being overly literal, but I think that atheists arguments are valuable - the special pleading regularly deployed for religion obscures this. One example that always comes to my mind is the concept of "moral equivalence", where one confuses factual and moral judgements. Your bog standard overly literal atheist points about separating these two are actually well worth listening to in that context.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:20 / 13.03.06
Whilst I don't want to keep dragging my Salvia trip into this, it did make me think on about this. Obviously this is a purely subjective thing to say but it would seem to me that any sort of god is actually just our conciousness, but a higher iteration of it.

Whilst under the effect I saw my friend in a very different light- my first attempt to explain it was "cartoon bear". On thinking about this, what I actually saw was a 2-dimensional figure- something smaller than I had become. It seems to fit with that image of the gods on mount olympus playing a board game with the mortals- I was seeing him from that perspective.

Suddenly, a lot of the symbolsim and metaphor of religion makes a lot of sense. People with wings, animal features- those are representations of conciousnesses that can take whatever form they want because they're outside the rules of "normal" space and time. It could be any of us.

Put simply, it means that this idea of a god or gods who will smite us if we misbehave is a false and needless one- we can be gods whenever we want. Now obvously that's my opinion, and it doesn't discount other people's. I'll need to be wary of trampling all over other people's interpretations- even if someone does mistakenly beleive that, for examples, homosexuals are going to be burnt in hell, it doesn't give me a right to call bullshit on their entire religious mindset and act as if I'm superior. We need engagement and dialogue. Conflict resolution is what's important.
 
 
elene
13:57 / 13.03.06
I understand that, Lurid, but you talk like someone waiting to have religion forced upon her. I'm saying there is no God that way and were there God then you'd need no forcing. One experiences God in the moments of fate, in the crack and gaps in one's reality, in rapidly changing not yet certain fortune. What has that to do with morality and rules? Only that one needs to be pure in spirit to endure such encounters.

I've really no notion of organized religion, Lurid, I'd certainly not plead for it. It's politics. I believe in the direct encounter with God. I have my own notion of which way we humans should go and I'd like that we go a lot further that way but I don't think that requires an experience of God, and it certainly does not require religion.
 
 
elene
14:38 / 13.03.06
Sorry, that comes across really fierce. I was too brief but I don't really want to go into more detail either. It’s also a bit far from where you were, Lurid. We probably are far apart.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:06 / 13.03.06
Thats ok, elene, and wasn't fierce at all. I am, in fact, intensely interested in the phenomenon of religion and would like to hear more about what you have to say about it. I'm critical, to be sure, but this is partly because I do think that religion often gets a free pass (despite the suspicion people have of really intense religiosity). In this sense, I think that religion is kinda forced on us. My feeling (intuitive, largely, though with some justification) is that the bleak and meaningless materialism I buy into is...better (this requires a lot of unpacking, I realise) and ultimately not nearly as bleak or as meaningless as it appears.

That said, I often find little problem getting on with various people who are religious - somehow and in some sense, it doesn't appear to be an important level of disagreement.
 
 
alas
12:46 / 14.03.06
I would love to hear more from you as well, elene. I was thinking about posting this article, "Defenders of the Faith" by Slavoj Zizek in the Zizek thread or the Switchboard thread on the anti-Islam cartoons (which he discusses), but this is an even better place for it. (It's a NYTimes article so again requires a free registration and probably won't be up for long. If you want to read it and can't, PM me and I'll send you a copy). He essentially argues for a strong atheism:

Atheism is a European legacy worth fighting for, not least because it creates a safe public space for believers. . . . .

Respect for other's beliefs as the highest value can mean only one of two things: either we treat the other in a patronizing way and avoid hurting him in order not to ruin his illusions, or we adopt the relativist stance of multiple "regimes of truth," disqualifying as violent imposition any clear insistence on truth.

What, however, about submitting Islam — together with all other religions — to a respectful, but for that reason no less ruthless, critical analysis? This, and only this, is the way to show a true respect for Muslims: to treat them as serious adults responsible for their beliefs.


In practice, given the world I'm handed, I mostly end up agreeing with the point that atheism, or secularity, in the government and public life in a highly bureaucratized society, is the approach that is best for the commonweal.

But, I also resist this notion of the only way to respect people is as "serious adults responsible for their beliefs" because it is a sharply individualistic, Western way of understanding both religion and adulthood, for that matter. Virtually everything that's implied by the idea of "organized religion" is ... well alien to most cultures on earth.

I'm not sure if I can explain this very well this morning. But outside this Western tradition, relgion is not a matter of "belief" or "truth you must work for on your own"; it's tied up with communal survival and daily life in a fully integrated way. You become a responsible adult not by "figuring out your own path" but by taking on survival responsibilities within the group based on what generations of people, living in a place have learned about what is required to make a life there.

The discussion of love, above, demonstrates the problematics of this approach to me quite clearly. You would not be here, I would not be here, capable of reading and responding to this complex series of symbols on a screen, if at least one person, probably our mothers, hadn't decided our needs were worth attending to when we were infants and well into toddlerhood at least. Then we required a whole apparatus of others' attentions and activities to bring us to this state of literacy and competence. Love defined in any serious way is required for human survival.

We do not come into this world as individuals; we come into the world as a part of a group that accepts us, finds some place for us in its social order, and contributes human attention and resources to our growth, or we die. Individualism is a false religion, and it often undergirds both Christianity and atheism today.
 
 
iconoplast
15:35 / 14.03.06
Interesting quote, not a whole lot to do with what I want to say:
"The equal toleration of all religions ... is the same thing as atheism." [Pope Leo XIII, Immortale Dei, 1885]


I agree wholeheartedly with elene. But I actually think that individualism sabotages any attempt at Religion, even in the West.

I'd like to make a distinction here between Faith and Religion. Faith - be it the belief in the existance or nonexistance of a God or Gods or world -spirit or ordering principle, is generally a private and unmediated matter. Once it becomes public, mediated through a church or coven or prayer circle, it becomes Religion. Having both is great. Having just one, I think, leads to a lot of trouble: Religion without faith lends itself to all kinds of horrible things, from voting Republican to Mass Genocide.*

Atheism, inasmuch as it is a statement about the supernatural, is (to me) a Faith. It seems possible to found a religion on this faith, some kind of existentialist triumph-of-the-will thing.**

Individualism is the opposite of religion. I think it is destructive, leading to the breakdown of communities and the inability to communicate with people who believe different things. (q.v., me making fun of Republicans, above). I also think it's false. I think so much of who we are is determined by our parents, and their parents. That the choices we make are constrained to the options given to us, and we're often reacting to our upbringings without even knowing it.

I mean, I know what I believe, and I know what I was raised to believe, and I can see how my beliefs have been shaped by my parents', and how their parents shaped them. Which isn't to say any of us believe the same thing. Just that my parents reacted to their parents, and I'm reacting, in turn, to how I was raised.

That's the thing about religion - it's less (to me) about Faith than it is about Community. Religion is getting together with people who share (at least in name) your faith, and participating in that faith together. So a critical analysis of Faith as though it were Science is going to find faith lacking in Truth-Content. Since, by their very nature, Faiths are statements which are unfounded by scientific criteria. However, this analysis would entirely overlook the utility-content of Faith - the benefits that believing brings. Meanwhile, the same analysis of Religion would be hard-pressed to acocunt for the reasons for belonging - the community, the history, the belonging. Science and Faith are 'nonoverlapping magisteria' - they describe different phenomena. Critiques of religion are exactly as appropriate as scientific doctrines based on what you read in the bible.




* - This is me joking.
** - This is an allusion to an unfortunate perversion of atheism that I'm going to try not to bring up.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:54 / 14.03.06
Individualism is a false religion, and it often undergirds both Christianity and atheism today. - alas

I'm going to have to ask you to unpack that alas. Mostly because it just doesn't seem justifiable to me. Sure, there are lots of fundamentalists christians that are making their presence felt, but I'd say that to claim individualism "undergirds" christianity is far too sweeping. As for atheism...maybe it depends what you mean. Atheism isn't really a single outlook, but really a whole bunch of them with a common theme. Is that what you mean? Or is it the rejection of community forming established religions?

But neither seem particularly convincing to me. In part this is because I see no contradiction in believing in common effort towards public goods and the rejection of specific common wisdom and institutions. I don't think thats a very controversial point.

Atheism, inasmuch as it is a statement about the supernatural, is (to me) a Faith.

I'd reply, but I have to get back to my not-stamp-collecting.

More seriously, though, as an atheist I am aware of the benefits of faith, and the problems too. In my view it isn't clear cut, so I don't rely on a simple appeal to the problems of religion when criticising it. Equally, I think that appeals to the good qualities are unconvincing for much the same reason.
 
 
HCE
19:38 / 14.03.06
This God is clearly capable of showing us God's nature in a very direct fashion, but prefers - for rather obvious reasons - that we have faith, that we believe.

elene, could you explain a bit more here, please? The reasons are not obvious to me, for one thing.

Thanks.
 
 
elene
20:23 / 14.03.06
Actually that had a very clear meaning when I wrote it, but now I can't remember what that meaning was. I think I meant that what can only be the work of God today can instead be something quite natural tomorrow, fred. So God doesn't just choose to require faith, God can't be sustained without it, contrary to what I said before. What proof is sufficient proof?

Which is not to say that that's what my experience of such things is. That's just how it seems to work with YHWH, who I'd initially intended to put down in that first post, only it didn't work out like that.

I really oughtn't talk about God.
 
 
enrieb
22:56 / 14.03.06
Why can't all the religious people get together and make a list of things that they all share as common values, then agree an international standard for religious people.

They can all then be united under a common set of religious/virtuous values and hopefully stop killing and hating each other.

They can all still have their own little sects and indiviual belief systems, but also be themselves united under the common set of values.

Surely Christian, Jews, Islamics, Hindus and Buddists all have the same basic values about living their lives in a good and peacefull way?

Rule 1. No killing each other
 
 
alas
02:30 / 15.03.06
I'd say that to claim individualism "undergirds" christianity is far too sweeping.

...which is why I qualified it with both "often" and "today." I was, in fact, thinking in terms of how specific practicioners present their views. Specifically: Zizek argues "we rational Westerners need to stop coddling these Muslims and treat them like adults" and somehow I get a feeling similar to the one I used to get as a child every time some old man in a church would turn to me with a cold hard stare and say, "Miss, do you know where you are going to spend eternity? Have you accepted Jesus as your personal savior?" I'm interested in that echo, and a little angered by it too.

I think I need some more time to unpack all this in my own mind, however.
 
 
elene
11:29 / 15.03.06
Hi fred,encore

I'm going to try and do better than that, I was knackered last night.

I know nothing about eternity, omnipotence, heavenly rulers, hell and the like. I've nothing whatever against myths and I wish I had better ones for my own life. For example, I find the myth of the transsexual and hir transformation rather complicated through its being integrated with psychiatric science. I've no idea what heaven might be, but the idea that the kingdom of heaven is all about us resonates strongly with me. If there is a perfect world it must be this one, we must just bring it that far. I know I'll die.

On the other hand the world we live in is much more than we are or can be conscious of. There's more to us than we know, we do things and, though we must do them, we don't know why. We wait to die and we don't die and we are saved. We have the perfect home and we walk out. We ought to compromise and we don't. We ought to fight and we surrender. We hurt someone because we love him.

This sounds simple so I'll add something a little more complex.

When I was ten years old I had a lot of problems. I was being bullied a lot at school and for the first time in my life I had to fight back. I was being sexually abused by a sick old man who owned a shop I had to visit each Saturday. I was deeply unhappy with how my relationship with my father was developing.

One day I was walking in marshland by the river, rambling around barefoot through the reeds and the rushes picking flowers, enjoying the scent of the mint and the summer sun. It was hot. The air was heavy. Suddenly there were a pair of snakes tangled in the rushes in front of me. Large black snakes, moving over one another, but I couldn't seem to focus on them, in my mind rather than with my eyes. I bent over them. I wondered if I could touch them and I was afraid. And then I was standing at least thirty meters away, on the riverbank. I felt hot and confused. The air pressure had changed. I went back to where the snakes must be but they were gone. It started to rain. There are no snakes in Ireland.

This was a crucial moment for me. I did better for several years after that.

I'd never heard of Tiresias - the seer, who found two snakes coupling and disturbed them, and was then transformed into a woman - at that time, by the way.

For me that was an encounter with God, undoubtedly and obviously. I'll leave it to anyone who cares to dissect it into an amalgam of psychology and psychotropic drugs, but I'm not really interested in doing so. For me it's alive.

Ways and paths, and the right way to travel them, good habits and good behaviour are really important. We nevertheless have Gods. A God cannot be judged as rules can be judged with experience. A God is alive. I can be reduced to a token, a coin, by an organized religion or the state or by anyone, a "catholic" perhaps or a "tranny," but I can't do that to God and still have a God. Either God is real and other than I or there is no God. God cannot be a token. God cannot be a token.

That has consequences for the ways in which we can think about God and interact with God. I'm quite sure it implies faith.
 
 
elene
12:36 / 15.03.06
I think it was the fear that helped.

If these posts seems a bit loud it's only because I have to sort of shout at myself to understand what I'm trying to say on this subject. It's as though the part of me who knows what she wants to say is very far away, and the Ellen with the pen - that's me - can hardly make it out.
 
 
alas
00:36 / 16.03.06
[metacommentary]

I'm really interested in your comments, elene, for a whole slew of reasons. The only one I can begin to articulate right now, is in relation to the question about rationality we've been discussing on another headshop thread.

What happens to a topic when it opens up to such distinct modes of expression--how is it possible to talk across these epistemological boundaries?

[/metacommentary]
 
 
elene
07:33 / 16.03.06
I'm unwilling to accept that I've killed this thread, even though the metacommentary tags alas is wearing do look rather like a biohazard suit.

Depersonalising my longer post on faith, I think the points are,
  1. that God cannot be reduced to a token,

  2. that God is individual and is to be directly experienced, and

  3. that as a result, and in contrast to an ethical system for instance, God can only be apprehended through faith.
This relates closely to Søren Kierkegaard's (much deeper and more sophisticated)
discussion of Teleological Suspension of the Ethical in Fear and Trembling.

This does matter. It's an important part of what it has meant to be human for thousands of years at least, and is of relevance to the psychology of martyrs, including suicide bombers, saints and mystics, heroes and poets and our contemporary clash of the civilisations.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:12 / 16.03.06
how is it possible to talk across these epistemological boundaries?

It probably isn't. As I've said before, this is more or less why I don't post in the Temple.

Having said that, I'll give it a try here. Elene, I don't think I understand your points. "God cannot be reduced to a token"? I'm not sure what you are saying. That you can't treat "God" as metaphorical and act accordingly? Only, I'm fairly sure that people do do that. So perhaps you are saying this misses the point of God? Hmmm, maybe.

"God is individual and is to be directly experienced"? Is this just part of the faith doctrine? Don't apply the same rules to God, and don't apply rationality, just believe, have faith and experience? If so, then I guess that is pretty standard. But maybe I've missed the point.
 
  

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