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Buffy final arc (US spoilers)

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
The Natural Way
11:29 / 25.06.03
If memory serves, the ending was remarkabley similar to Tom's fave ending idea: an army of slayers vs an ary of vampires, with Spike sacrificing his life to save the world. Is that right?

Yeah, I loved it. Was tres stoned and buzzing. Caleb is to my mind the scariest baddie yet. His horrible soft fringe and all that woman hatred! And his face streaked with black blood like horrid tears, or something! And that red maw and 'Bitch!' Fucking terrifying. He HAD to go. I think Fraely's right, over on another thread, when he says it was important the women went out punching and kicking. The Spike thing was just one of the Buffy writer's 'flobotnums'. Just there to get him to the place where most of us assumed he had to go. And so, because of that (and because it looked really cool and victorious), I totally forgive the deus-ex-machina stuff.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
22:20 / 07.07.03
Not sure whether anyone's posted this link yet, but - here's a Joss Whedon interview from 23rd June. The majority is about his early life and getting into TV/movies, but he has some interesting things to say about Buffy. There appears to be a lot of season seven that didn't go as well as he'd have liked -

* the First being a damp squib as far as being a 'Big Bad', so needing a Caleb, but him turning up a little late
* lack of screen time/closure for some of the major characters, especially Dawn
* both his and Gellar's disatisfaction with the way season six turned out in terms of not quite being 'Buffy' enough
* the fact that he had a major plot for Tara's return and that Amber Benson didn't want to do it, so the Willow/Kennedy relationship was written in quickly to compensate for his personal pet story having to be junked...
* oh, and in case the rumour's not hit Barbelith yet, looks like a Firefly movie is almost certain in one form or another, judging by this interview and others with the cast.

And apparently all he's doing right now is writing the screenplay for that and getting hands-on involved with Angel season five. Looks like he's pretty determined not to let either show suffer the way Buffy suffered the last two years...
 
 
Seth
23:39 / 07.07.03
Let's hope he's learned his lesson, because I could really do without Spike being plastered all over Angel Season Five.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
01:28 / 10.07.03
Generic Buffy question here, and this was the closest Buffy thread.

Can somebody tell me how the Initiative went under? Weren't they an (un)official military unit? Was it destroyed by an act of violence? If so, why did the military simply abandon Sunnydale?
 
 
J. White
01:59 / 10.07.03
As far as I'm concerned the show ended when it left the WB.

Oh and as for the Initiative questions, sorry, but I've got no real information until I rewatch season 4(?). I'm sure someone will pick up on it.
 
 
_Boboss
08:24 / 10.07.03
there was a huge ruck. adam was planning to use leftover bits of the demons and soldiers to make an army of his own, till buffy turned up fucked him sideways with the full spectrum of superhero talents and got the soldiers out of there. the army having had most of its arse handed to it realised that whatever it was in sunnydale was way beyond their control and best left to a small cell of specialised civilians to deal with. 'burn it down and salt the earth', if i recall. rockn good episode the end of series four.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:24 / 10.07.03
"Oh look, a huge ruck. I'm going to tell all my friends, they don't have a ruck as large as this."
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:46 / 05.10.03
Apologies for bumping this back up, but I just watched the end of the season last night and can’t figure out whether I liked it or not, or how much.

In terms of the bad: What was the point of Kennedy? I know Jack was saying that Whedon needed a replacement for Tara after Benson decided she didn’t want to be part of the show again, but really, *why* did he need one? There’s never any point in the series when she’s useful or a core element to Willow’s development. Stinks of loose plotting.

There’s a lot that stinks of loose plotting. Dawn. More specifically, Dawn getting kidnapped by Xander so that she could be taken to a safe place, then knocking Xander out and going back to Sunnydale. Again, the question has to be “why?” As soon as Angel turns up, going on about this amulet that he’s found that Buffy needs to give to someone who’s not human but has a soul, I was thinking it was going to be a Dawn moment. Spike’s the obvious choice, but the description (nearly) fits Dawn. And hell, there *has* to be a reason as to why they’ve wasted all that time over Xander taking her away from the danger spot, yeah? Uh, no. Dawn comes back, Dawn disappears. Pointless.

Felt short-changed by the final battle. For weeks we’ve had Buffy telling us that a lot of people are going to die, then when it comes around we lose one second-tier character and a couple of extras who might have been hanging around the Summers house before as potential slayers, but we don’t know for sure because they never had any screen time previously. Who lives? Who dies? Well, that’s pretty much “everyone” and “no-one.” I like that Anya’s death is sudden and brutal, but unfortunately it stands out as an anomaly in the context of the rest of the episode. Getting rid of someone like that in such an offhand manner can only really work if you’ve got bigger fish to fry in more spectacular ways or a number of smaller fish in an even more abrupt manner. The lack of significant deaths is an even bigger disappointment after the whole Xander/eye thing, where it suddenly looks we’re being prepared for things to get really nasty, for characters we’ve been with for a long time to get royally fucked over. Just doesn’t happen. Very poor, and looks like nothing more than a way of future-proofing the Buffyverse for spinoffs. Sure, there’s Spike’s death, but we always knew he was going to turn up in Angel so it doesn’t count.

Oh yeah, and Buffy getting stabbed through the gut, falling to the ground, then miraculously returning from the brink of death and doing a Batman over the roofs of the collapsing buildings. Wha? Why fucking have her getting stabbed in the first place? You could get the same thing from punching her out for a while, plus you’d have the benefit of then not forcing viewers to suspend their disbelief from a rope attached to Mir.

The good: I dig on the corny shit. Always have done. Willow becoming the anti-EvilWillow was cool in a very corny way. It’s where the character had to go.

Caleb. I really like the way that he’s only in the last few episodes. Sure, it sounds like that’s got more to do with last-minute worries than any actual series planning, but it worked for the character. Ever since season 4 the big bad has outstayed its welcome long before episode 22’s rolled around. The Initiative/Adam, Glory, Andrew/Jonathon/Warren, they all grew dull very quickly, mainly through overuse. We’re not given time to get tired of Caleb.

Other stuff I wanted to say. People complaining about how the show should have finished at the end of S5: rubbish. If you’re going to take the view that it had run its natural course then surely it should have finished at the end of S3? You know: a show about growing up and surviving High School, season ends with kids graduating and blowing the school up. The End. Perfect. Same with people complaining about Spike becoming increasingly important over the last two seasons. Point A: it was never purely about a girl with superpowers fighting demons (see above). Point B: if you’re going to complain about this stuff, then you need to go right back to season 2 and start bitching about how Spike was brought back from the dead (Dru carrying him out from under all that rubble) after Whedon realised how popular he was with the audience.

Guess I’m 50:50 on the big ending. Liked the season as a whole; more consistent than the last three. Funnier than the last three. Still, shitloads of missed opportunities.
 
 
Seth
15:03 / 05.10.03
If you’re going to take the view that it had run its natural course then surely it should have finished at the end of S3?

That's a damn good point. What a brilliant ending that would have been, better than any of the subsequent finales.

I like the bit where Caleb lures everyone to his Vineyard. Then a couple of weeks later we find out it's the last place he wants the SLayer to know about, because that's where he's searching for her power-up super weapon. Can a series be put together any more shoddily?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:46 / 07.10.03
"People complaining about how the show should have finished at the end of S5: rubbish... Same with people complaining about Spike becoming increasingly important over the last two seasons. Point A: it was never purely about a girl with superpowers fighting demons (see above). Point B: if you’re going to complain about this stuff, then you need to go right back to season 2 and start bitching about how Spike was brought back from the dead (Dru carrying him out from under all that rubble) after Whedon realised how popular he was with the audience."

No, no, and arsebiscuits. No one really gives a toss about how they put the series together provided it works. While you can definitely trace a falling off in quality from the beginning of season four, it didn't start actually getting shit until the beginning of season six. And at that point it started to look increasingly as if Buffy was going X-Files - outstaying its welcome because of all the merchandising tie-ins, etc. How many classic episodes do you recall from S6-S7? Crucially (as the episodes don't run with a title tag at the start), how many episode titles do you remember compared to S2 and S3, and to a lesser extent S4 and S5?

If you’re going to take the view that it had run its natural course then surely it should have finished at the end of S3? You know: a show about growing up and surviving High School, season ends with kids graduating and blowing the school up. The End. Perfect.

Now that I agree with. True, it wouldn't have allowed for wonderful stuff like 'Hush', 'The Body', 'Once More With Feeling', or the heart-breaking episode of Angel where he and Buffy get their second chance, lose it again, and only he remembers (angstangstangst), but it would have gone out on an unstoppable high, goddamnit.

Buffy was a show with a certain shelf-life - the main character wasn't set up to last past high school, in my opinion. Gimmick episodes aside, the show never really strayed from it's formula, and Gellar was too much a one-note actress (See! Her devastated face! See! Her ditzy face! See! Her angry face! Marvel! At her crapulence!) to take it anywhere else. Three years of whining about how she doesn't get to have a normal life - that's high school, baby. Four years after graduating, still doing the same thing? That's boring.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
11:18 / 07.10.03
How many classic episodes do you recall from S6-S7?

You recall one stirling episode at least:

True, it wouldn't have allowed for wonderful stuff like 'Hush', 'The Body', 'Once More With Feeling',
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:32 / 07.10.03
EVERYTHING the former Jack The Bodiless said. Everything. We are as one mind on this.
 
 
cusm
15:42 / 07.10.03
In my opinion, S6 existed entirely as backdrop for Once More With Feeling. Worth watching it all again, just to make the musical more tasty. But not for much else.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:14 / 07.10.03
and Willow becoming evil. It was a crap ending, but at least we got some Evil Willow.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:05 / 07.10.03
Whoopsie. Some explanation required. The point about Spike was me addressing something I thought I'd read (that the final ep perverted the original aim of the show by making Spike the hero) in one of the other threads floating around, but now I look for it again to link back to I realise I didn't read the original post properly, so just ignore that. Reading never was my strong point.

Jack: For me, S4 and 5 were just as good/bad as 6 and 7. Honestly. Well, okay, not quite; I hate nearly all of 4 with a burning passion that I can't raise for the others (it even went thematically X-Files, ferchristsakes). While things happen in the last eighty-eight episodes, they never happen in standout ones (other than the gimmicks - namely OMWF, The Body and Hush). Willow realises she's gay. It happens over the course of the series. Buffy accepts that she's going to die, and soon. Throughout S5. That's good stuff in one way, 'cause you can't have that stuff happening out of the blue if you want to keep people involved, but it's bad stuff in another because they're far and away the most memorable things about the series', whereas in 2 and 3 there's loads to pull out.

With the exception of the gimmick eps mentioned above and the final boss levels, I couldn't tell you what happens in specific ones for the show's last four years.

Just found out something that might put the "Amber Benson didn't want to return" in a slightly different light. She's provided the vocals for Tara in the new Buffy videogame. Might have been an integrity thing, in which case kudos to her. Mind you, it did foist Kennedy on us, so rotten eggs to her along with the kudos.

Oh yeah, and Kennedy/Willow - WTF? I'm sure that Molly (*gnashes teeth, bites knuckles*) mentions that all the potentials are 15 at one point. Like, was there no communication between scriptwriters at all?
 
 
cusm
00:07 / 10.10.03
Go Willow! Way to pick 'em young and dirty, eh?
 
 
FinderWolf
16:50 / 22.11.06
Whedon is continuing the story of the Slayer and all her pals in a comic:

Read here for details, along with some tiny art previews...
 
 
PatrickMM
15:42 / 28.11.06
I'm still surprised that Whedon couldn't get the funding for his TV movies, while JMS did for Babylon 5. If nothing else, Serenity showed the reliability of Joss' core base, so as long as they kept the budgets down, a series of DVD movies would be easy profit. Hell, what I would do is release them in movie theaters with no advertising campaign, the fans would go and they'd gross at least $15 million, then throw it on DVD and eventually on TV. Budget the movies at $2 million per, maybe $1 million advertising, and the fans will do the rest. Somebody made a stupid decision over at Fox.

That's not to say I'm not looking forward to the comic, but it's just not the same as film content.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:04 / 28.11.06
I think in trying to make a series of films at $2M each you would run into trouble with cast members.

SMG has been making a few films recently, and while I don't have any information on how much she is making I would bet her agent would blow the budget is they were any good at negotiation (you can't have a Buffy movie without Buffy).

I would also wonder how many of the actors really would want to go back to their roots like that. In Serenity they had to kill off two of the main characters (one mostly off camera) because the actors didn't want to play those roles forever. With Buffy you have even a wider gap since the series ended and the theoretical start of filming. I think at least a few of them would like to move on.

Not that I would hate it if they made a movie or two, I just don't think it would be likely (except for maybe the further adventures of One Eyed Xander, I don't think he has been doing anything lately...).
 
 
buttergun
20:08 / 28.11.06
I thought the last season of Buffy was so bad, I really don't WANT to see further adventures of the slayer and pals. And from Whedon's comments/the panels shown, it looks like the comic is keeping the Season 7 vibe, ie Buffy training new slayers, etc.

Also, I'm pretty sure the main thing keeping a Buffy movie from reality is SMG herself, who most likely doesn't want to play the part anymore. I guess they could always bring back Kristi Swanson...
 
 
PatrickMM
22:21 / 28.11.06
I believe Whedon's proposal was to do four direct to DVD movies, each focusing on a different character: Willow, Illyria, Faith and Spike. SMG is very unlikely to return to Buffy, but I think the others would all be up for it, the thing stopping them was the funding.

And I'd agree it's not particularly exciting to get more stuff focused on Buffy herself. I'm much more curious to see what happened to Angel after his series.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:05 / 29.11.06
It's odd that Whedon says he won't tell the story of what happened to Angel and Spike immediately after the end of that final episode, yet is happy to give away what I consider to be a pretty huge frakking spoiler, i.e. they didn't die or get trapped in a Wolfram & Hart prison hell for ever.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:38 / 29.11.06
According to internet gossip-monkeys Angel loses an arm and Spike gets Shanshu (which is about as far as development of any movie seems to have got).

Oh, and Xander loses another eye.

Mind you, if they leave it much longer they'll have to use that de-aging SFX they used in X-Men 3 on Marsters. He was looking pretty middle-aged in that last season.
 
 
Triplets
11:40 / 29.11.06
I really don't WANT to see further adventures of the slayer and pals.

In that case I'm all for Season 8 of Buffy with every part played by Michelle Rodgriguez.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:24 / 29.11.06
Mind you, if they leave it much longer they'll have to use that de-aging SFX they used in X-Men 3 on Marsters. He was looking pretty middle-aged in that last season.

Yeah, I also thought it was funny (in a sad way) the way David Boreaz (or however it`s spelled) looked so much younger in Buffy S01 than it the 100 years flash backs in Angel...
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
14:49 / 29.11.06
There has already been a run of Angel comic books taking place 'some time later'

Gun, Ilyria and Spike all showed up at one point, because there was some spike looking guy killing people and they thought he went bad, or some nonsense.

I flipped through it in the shop, never saw the last issue though. What I read never explained what happened at the big W&H battle.
 
 
PatrickMM
18:03 / 29.11.06
The original story plan for season six involved Gunn getting turned into a vampire, and the whole world plunged into apocalyptic chaos. Apparently, Oz was supposed to make an appearance as well, to council Angel's werewolf girlfriend. All I really want more of from the verse is Illyria, she was the best character created on Angel and was around for far too short a time.
 
  

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