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The Breeding Exam - what would you put on it?

 
  

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Kit-Cat Club
09:17 / 16.04.03
Clarification is key ;-)

I was responding to Leap's post, really, and to a couple which mentioned 'trailer trash' further up the thread, though I realise that those weren't entirely serious... (I hope).
 
 
waxy dan
09:26 / 16.04.03
Clarification is key ;-) Always is, yup.

To be fair though, I think Leap's comment was a good starting point.
It's just a really tough topic to deal with, when you get into more 'concrete' issues like money, work and housing. It's very difficult to design a fair and balanced system without it getting so complex taht it becomes a bureaucratic nightmare.
 
 
Quantum
09:34 / 16.04.03
Not serious! Baiting Crimes of Fashion! (Who saw a Real Live Tiger BTW)

I never suggested paying people not to have children, where did that come from? Although I am in favour of re-jigging the benefits system (having worked for the Jobcentre for some time I could detail the reforms needed but what's the point?). Working Family Tax Credit is getting there (does exactly what Leap suggests) but the entire benefit system is a mess. At the moment there is very little incentive to go from benefits to work, I favour more money going to those working on a low income, making it worthwhile to sign off, and government subsidised creche facilities.
Did you know the UK's biggest expenditure (after defence I think) is the benefit bill? We should be making it easier for people to start work, not trap them in a catch-22 situation, stuck on the dole.

Everyone- don't blame single mothers, you sound like Thatcher.

Interestingly this is much more of a problem in the US than UK- recently they hit almost 50% unemployment IIRC, and had to institute draconian welfare reforms. Hopefully we can avoid that here.
 
 
waxy dan
09:58 / 16.04.03
"We should be making it easier for people to start work, not trap them in a catch-22 situation, stuck on the dole"

The UK seems pretty good there, from what I've seen so far. Career development loans, etc. The government does appear to offer a lot of support for students at least.

Though how viable an option that would be to someone raising a child, I'm not so sure of.
 
 
Olulabelle
10:02 / 16.04.03
Not very. I've been looking into it. Going back to school and looking after a child on your own do not good bedfellows make, at least not in this country. Now Holland, Denmark, Norway, on the other hand....
 
 
Leap
10:25 / 16.04.03
This may sound a bit harsh but; if you cannot afford to raise them, do not have them. The responsibility for raising children (and meeting the cost of raising them) is the parents (and to a lessor extent the grandparents). I have no problems with benefit for widows or even those who have split from abusive partners, but I see no reason to pay for the progeny of some waster who is incapable of / or unwilling to maintain a stable and self-financed relationship to bring their child up.

The govt has a responsibility to not take away the ability of parents to raise their own children (through the excessive degree of taxation and interference we now suffer), but WE do not have the responsibility to pay for the raising of some slackers addition to the gene pool.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:31 / 16.04.03
So....we leave the children to starve, or put their mothers to work in the workhouse? Or just kill them by lethal injection? Mind you, lethal injections are pretty costly...,might be cheaper just to eat them.
 
 
Leap
10:47 / 16.04.03
No, instead we should give into blackmail everytime.....

There is no easy answer (this is real life not a novel) - the responsibility is for the parent to raise the child. To do otherwise sets a poor precedent and legitimises theft from responsible folks. If the mother is a generally good person who made one mistake she will probably be loved and respected by her family and community (and they can pull together to help). If however she is just another slapper then let her and her child go to the wall - better her than the many 100s of 1000s of sensible folks who would be placed in a yolk to her service should the opposite be done.

Sometimes life is hard.....but if we have a society where this situation is well known rather the one we have now that hides behind welfare such incidents will become more of a minority event.

I would like to hear what alternative you offer?
 
 
Olulabelle
10:47 / 16.04.03
This may sound a bit harsh but; if you cannot afford to raise them, do not have them. The responsibility for raising children (and meeting the cost of raising them) is the parents (and to a lessor extent the grandparents). I have no problems with benefit for widows or even those who have split from abusive partners, but I see no reason to pay for the progeny of some waster who is incapable of / or unwilling to maintain a stable and self-financed relationship to bring their child up.

What about people who have become single parents due to some other sort of relationship breakdown? Whose definition of the term 'abusive' do we use? Yours?

What about people who have mental health problems and therefore can't work, but have children from before the mental health problems started?

What about people whose backgrounds and upbringing are so unstable, they have not been able to maintain a 'stable and self-financed' relationship?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:53 / 16.04.03
I think Leaps' problem - apart, of course, from demanding another solution - is that he has not quite got the hang of the interconnectedness of all things yet. To put it another way - there is a fair-to-middling chance that I am currently earning more than Leap. There is a fair-to-middling chance that Leap is earning more than me. As a result of this, there is possibly a disparity between the taxes we are paying - the "contribution"
 
 
waxy dan
10:55 / 16.04.03
"be loved and respected by her family and community (and they can pull together to help)" - this just doesn't happen.

Leap, you're asking for an alternative to a solution you've yet to provide. I can see where you're coming from (see my earlier posts), but I can't see what solution you're actually suggesting here.
 
 
Leap
10:55 / 16.04.03
"What about people who have become single parents due to some other sort of relationship breakdown? Whose definition of the term 'abusive' do we use? Yours?"

If you want me to pay for your childs upkeep, damn right mine!

"What about people who have mental health problems and therefore can't work, but have children from before the mental health problems started?"

Counts same as widows; this is not a 'fascists' charter devoid of compassion.

"What about people whose backgrounds and upbringing are so unstable, they have not been able to maintain a 'stable and self-financed' relationship?"

Then they have no business becoming parents. There is more to parenthood than giving birth; it is a longterm commitment (yes I am one - a step-parent).
 
 
Leap
10:58 / 16.04.03
Haus -

Sorry, but I do not understand what you are getting at. Could you please clarify?
 
 
Leap
11:00 / 16.04.03
Dan -

Then we need perhaps to re-educate society (see my post on the 'forced democracy' topic).
 
 
Olulabelle
11:02 / 16.04.03
Leap, I'll let you off on the mental health one then...

So, what about people who perhaps have paid taxes throughout their lives, ceased working due to childbirth, but then found themselves in an 'abusive' relationship?

Whose definition can we use then? Theirs? After all, aren't their own taxes therefore paying for the support they should (expect to) receive from the state?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:07 / 16.04.03
I think Leaps' problem - apart, of course, from demanding another solution - is that he has not quite got the hang of the interconnectedness of all things yet. To put it another way - there is a fair-to-middling chance that I am currently earning more than Leap. There is a fair-to-middling chance that Leap is earning more than me. As a result of this, there is possibly a disparity between the taxes we are paying - the "contribution" to the society we live in. Theoretically at least this disparity of contribution does not entitle one of us to have a greater say in how the country is run than the other, although it is a sad truth that this is not necessarily the case.

This contribution passes out into society in all sorts of ways - maintaining public services, providing healthcare, and providing funding to help people raise their children. Who knows, it may indirectly have helped to procide Leap with an education, allowing him to get a good job and ultimately fund some procreation. I profit from this in various ways, one of the most obvious being that people do not keep breaking into my house and nicking my computers to buy ramen noodles.

Now. The next problem is that Leap is a bit messed up about sex. Because there are "generally good" people, whose goodness is measured by the financial resources available to them from their ancestors, and "slappers", whose parents do not have the resources to support them, or whose parents have turned their back on them as a result of their whorishness, perhaps. In essence, we're talking about a feudal society. I see the role of the state to a greater or lesser extent as a stand-in for beneficient uncles - that might mean that it helps to prevent children from being tyrannised by the poverty of their parents and their parents' parents, or that it helps to tell people why it would be a good idea not to have children right now, and provide them with better things to do, or helping to engineer a society in which they have jobs and educations and all these other things that seem to affect the age and number of children people may have, without exerting too much unnecessary control over their lives. I do not believe personally that that education is best done by calling single mothers sluts and starving their children. Because I'm not the Sheriff of Nottingham. That may change.

As I asked Leap in the first place, what would he do with the surplus children? As happened in the thread whence this one offshot, people seem to be confusing the question "Wouldn't it be nice if people never had unplanned, unwanted or over-expensive children" and the question actually being asked. Fortunately, this is now in the Conversation, so we can wander about a bit and maybe analyse some of our expectations.
 
 
Leap
11:11 / 16.04.03
olulabelle -

"Whose definition can we use then? Theirs? After all, aren't their own taxes therefore paying for the support they should (expect to) receive from the state? "

by all means - up to the ammount they have given in tax
 
 
Quantum
11:16 / 16.04.03
Let's generalise this a little- I think it's irrespective whether or not a parent is a single parent or a family unit, the key issue is 'lazy slackers spending our taxes' is it not? This applies equally to two parents with ten children on state benefits as it does one parent (Single Father or Mother) with one child.
Better education, a less slapdash and beuracratic benefits system, free contraception and a harsher punishment for benefit cheats would solve that. (and free English/literacy/numeracy classes) The people who are working and signing, drug dealers etc who sign for their housing benefit and to hide their criminal income, people who sign on as multiple people etc. are fraudsters and mean legitimate claimants have a hard time. THEY'RE the people to be harsh on.
 
 
Olulabelle
11:27 / 16.04.03
I see the role of the state to a greater or lesser extent as a stand-in for beneficient uncles - that might mean that it helps to prevent children from being tyrannised by the poverty of their parents and their parents' parents, or that it helps to tell people why it would be a good idea not to have children right now, and provide them with better things to do, or helping to engineer a society in which they have jobs and educations and all these other things that seem to affect the age and number of children people may have, without exerting too much unnecessary control over their lives.

Yes exactly Haus, but sadly this is not the view of the Daily Mail reading British public. Unfortunately the general consensus of opinion in this country seems to be that if you don't pay taxes you are a/ a drain on society, b/a waster that deserves to live in a council tenement flat and c/you should not under any circumstances be allowed to procreate.

Now, I know this is wandering a little bit, but as the cloak had been placed on the floor I am inclined to step on it...

I have problems with this underlying attitude of 'Being a good parent relates solely to how much money you do or don't earn.' Being able to afford Versace does not a good parent make, yet there seems to be little or no discussion on the subject of the fact that many children are sent off to Boarding School at age 5 or 6 so that they may be bullied, beaten and buggered senselessly, which allegedly gives them a 'good grounding in life' and teaches them 'how to be a man.'

Personally, I don't think this is good parenting, but the point is, it's all subjective.

So by that statement, you could say that a breeding exam would have, for me, to include questions like 'Could you be bothered to look after your child, or would you just send it off to boarding school at the earliest opportunity, thus enabling yourself to swan off round the Med' on a swanky yacht?'

I guess my point is that it's about the way you care for the child, not about the financial muscle you may or may not have.
 
 
Leap
11:35 / 16.04.03
Haus –

“Theoretically at least this disparity of contribution does not entitle one of us to have a greater say in how the country is run than the other, although it is a sad truth that this is not necessarily the case.”

We both (should!) have absolute say in whether we wish to be placed in the yolk to a bunch of irresponsible slappers.

”Who knows, it may indirectly have helped to provide Leap with an education, allowing him to get a good job and ultimately fund some procreation.”

Both of my parents worked (my mum part-time, whilst I was at school) to be able to afford to raise me. No “I’m a single parent waster pay for child now” attitude there I am afraid.

“I profit from this in various ways, one of the most obvious being that people do not keep breaking into my house and nicking my computers to buy ramen noodles.”

So they rob you with taxes (indirect robbery – oh I am sorry it is not robbery is it….hmmm so what exactly do you call taking without my permission?) instead of directly. What a noble people we have become.

”I see the role of the state to a greater or lesser extent as a stand-in for beneficent uncles - ….”.

Wrong relationship. It is not uncles you are looking for, it is brothers. Big Brothers.

“I do not believe personally that that education is best done by calling single mothers sluts and starving their children. Because I'm not the Sheriff of Nottingham. That may change.”

Picking out the incompetent and calling them so is not PC, that I realise, but then PC is unrealistic anyway so what the hell………?

”As I asked Leap in the first place, what would he do with the surplus children?”

And my answer is that it is better that the very few die then the majority be dehumanised by their needs. There are limits to human capability. Is it ok to enslave a nation of responsible folks to meet the needs of the irresponsible and their offspring?

Quantum –

“the key issue is 'lazy slackers spending our taxes' is it not? This applies equally to two parents with ten children on state benefits as it does one parent (Single Father or Mother) with one child.”

Agreed.

Olu –

“I have problems with this underlying attitude of 'Being a good parent relates solely to how much money you do or don't earn.'”

Me to! Being a good parent does however involve meeting the basic needs of your child without putting your hand out and going “gimme”.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:35 / 16.04.03
yet there seems to be little or no discussion on the subject of the fact that many children are sent off to Boarding School at age 5 or 6 so that they may be bullied, beaten and buggered senselessly

On the bright side, this does mean that I'm not paying for the little shits' education, as I would be if they went to a comprehensive.

Nobody here is putting their children through comprehensive education, are they? I hate that level of dependency and sponging.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:42 / 16.04.03
Both of my parents worked (my mum part-time, whilst I was at school) to be able to afford to raise me. No “I’m a single parent waster pay for child now” attitude there I am afraid.

Private school, I hope.

It sounds to me like Leap has an admirable desire to eliminate unnecessary claims on the state, and has correctly identified that beating up on single mothers is a lot easier than tracking down benefit cheats. Which is good, and has convinced me entirely. I just hope theat he and his children are products of private education and have private healthcare plans, like what responsible me is and does, or else I am afraid I am going to have to take away his stepchildren and render them down for glue.
 
 
Leap
11:43 / 16.04.03
Haus -

Would you be willing to change society so that homeschooling is not the privilege of the wealthy, that we can recreate communities so the homeschooled children do not learn is isolation from their peers, and be able then to get around the law that fines parents for taking their children out of school, because we (my missus and myself) would be more than happy to do so?

Unfortunately the kind of money that is necessary in the modern greed driven high speed society is only available if one partner brings in a fantastic salary (and hence gets very little actual time without their family).
 
 
Leap
11:50 / 16.04.03
Haus -

“Private school, I hope.”

”It sounds to me like Leap has an admirable desire to eliminate unnecessary claims on the state, and has correctly identified that beating up on single mothers is a lot easier than tracking down benefit cheats. Which is good, and has convinced me entirely. I just hope that he and his children are products of private education and have private healthcare plans, like what responsible me is and does, or else I am afraid I am going to have to take away his stepchildren and render them down for glue.”

I was kind of hoping you could address the situation sensibly. I appear to have been mistaken, and I apologise for treating you as if you were capable of doing so.

I am anti the welfare state – welfare should be a matter for families, friends and local communities to give to those deemed deserving, not an en masse robbery of the population who ARE sensible enough to be providers in order to cater to those who are not.
 
 
Quantum
11:51 / 16.04.03
Is that a question on the exam?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:51 / 16.04.03
Right. So, because you and your missus are too lazy or too stupid to get jobs that would allow you to afford private schooling for your children, you expect me and other high earners to supplement your meagre tax contribution to run non-fee-paying schools? God in Heaven...

Your wife made a decision to have children. If she and you can't afford to buy a situation for them where they are educated and socialised without putting a drain on the public purse, then you are parasites. It's just lucky for you that I don't mind shelling out for them in the vague hope that they might get a job at the end of their expensive (TO ME) education and thus not have to mug me for smack money.

Incidentally, I *am* addressing the situation seriously. I am seriously attempting to demonstrate that there is always somebody in a position to look down on you *as a person* ("slapper" is not a financial term), and always a reason that can be offered for it.

You claim that welfare should be a matter for the community, after claiming that people should be personally responsible for funding their children's upbringing. So, in effect, you want to define the community in terms of - what? Why aren't your family and friends friends either educating your children (and you *can* organise home tutoring...) or paying for them to be educated? You are demanding handouts while demanding the right to deny handouts from others because you disapprove of the way *they* get handouts.

As I say, I accept contributing to the welfare of people poorer than myself because I like to live in a society where a reasonable minimum of people are not suffering from a total lack of education or a total lack of resources. I am pro spending money on the education of people who could not afford private school, because I believe that education is a good way to avoid the helplessness, lack of prospects and crippling boredom that often leads to surplus population.

As a member of the middle classes without dependents, I eat better and take better care of myself than many people. I have not visited a doctor for years, I so not need local healthcare and would be unlikely to use local employment services or similar. It would be a long time before I found myself even needing to pay benefit. Te tum te tum. So, basically, I am paying out, for example in council tax, far me than I receive from my "community" - I live in a more expensive place than many, so pay more, and all I get out of it is my bins collected.

I accept that the system could do with rigour, streamlining, better running, and all that, but that is just due diligence. I also accept thatt a world in which everybody contributed according to their abilities (I could pay more, but don't) and received according to their needs through the support of the community would be *lovely*, but right now I also see it as Utopian. You seem to be struggling to make your vision of a welfareless, community-based society function as non-utipian, is all.
 
 
Quantum
11:56 / 16.04.03
This touches on the larger question of what to do about antisocial members of society in general. Professional criminals, beggars and the homeless, those who waste their lives on benefits etc.
I would like to see them all given the opportunity to live a different lifestyle, as *nobody* is intentionally going to become a crack whore (say) and often people are trapped in situations they feel they can't change. Let's give people a chance to change their lives for the better.
THEN if they won't contribute to society, fuck 'em and let 'em starve.
 
 
that
11:57 / 16.04.03
I am anti the welfare state – welfare should be a matter for families, friends and local communities to give to those deemed deserving

So, just out of interest, and barring any sort of breeding exam, what the fuck is supposed to happen to those NOT deemed deserving? Are we talking Haus' glue factory scenario here?
 
 
waxy dan
12:07 / 16.04.03
"Let's give people a chance to change their lives for the better.
THEN if they won't contribute to society, fuck 'em and let 'em starve"

But by that logic, the kids of these people -should- be allowed the chance for education and to "change their lives for the better".
 
 
that
12:10 / 16.04.03
So how long do people get to 'change their lives for the better' before they're let starve? Me for instance - I'm on benefits because of various mental health problems that render me pretty much a shut-in, and make it very difficult for me to deal with people. I'm working on it, but, who knows when I'll be able to hold down a job? It's not a case of 'won't contribute', it's a case of 'can't contribute', at least not in the way you (whoever you may be) might want. And you might be surprised at how often mental health issues of one kind or another are key here. But, I'm all for giving people a better chance at life... But if you use removing benefits as a kind of reverse carrot to make people into what you want them to be...I just think that, firstly, is fucked, and secondly, isn't going to work.
 
 
Leap
12:10 / 16.04.03
Haus –

What are you on about?

“So, because you and your missus are too lazy or too stupid to get jobs that would allow you to afford private schooling for your children, you expect me and other high earners to supplement your meagre tax contribution to run non-fee-paying schools?”

Erm, nope. By all means stop funding such. What do you mean you cannot? Oh your tax is taken from you regardless of your opinion on the matter! What a lovely thing the welfare state is.

“Your wife made a decision to have children. If she and you can't afford to buy a situation for them where they are educated and socialised without putting a drain on the public purse, then you are parasites.”

We do not expect or demand welfare, merely a situation where we can raise our children – not really comparable to the “lets have kids without any notion of supporting them” attitude is it now little Haus.

Quantum –

“This touches on the larger question of what to do about antisocial members of society in general. Professional criminals, beggars and the homeless, those who waste their lives on benefits etc. “

Remove their benefit. Simple. Leave benefit to a matter of the charity of friends/family/local-community.

“I would like to see them all given the opportunity to live a different lifestyle, as *nobody* is intentionally going to become a crack whore (say) and often people are trapped in situations they feel they can't change. Let's give people a chance to change their lives for the better.”

Which needs education and a handout system that has a definite lifespan, not an indefinite tax teat for them to suck on.

”THEN if they won't contribute to society, fuck 'em and let 'em starve.”

Exactree.

Cholister –

“So, just out of interest, and barring any sort of breeding exam, what the fuck is supposed to happen to those NOT deemed deserving?”

They either learn and scrabble what life they can, perhaps by earning the good graces of local community, or they die.

Your alternative would be?

Waxy dan –

"Let's give people a chance to change their lives for the better.
THEN if they won't contribute to society, fuck 'em and let 'em starve" [Quantum]

”But by that logic, the kids of these people -should- be allowed the chance for education and to "change their lives for the better".”

Only if it can be done by acts of personal charity – yoking up the responsible to meet the demands of the irresponsible is like having the seeing following the blind.
 
 
that
12:16 / 16.04.03
Leap, dear, I hope that, if nothing else, you'd enjoy seeing all the corpses piling up in the streets if your ideas were brought in. You'd get on well with the Objectivists, I think, though even they might find you a little fucking extreme.
 
 
Saveloy
12:17 / 16.04.03
Haus:
"As I asked Leap in the first place, what would he do with the surplus children?

Leap:
"And my answer is that it is better that the very few die then the majority be dehumanised by their needs."

So you reckon it's better for children to die of starvation/exposure etc than it is for people who earn more than they require to live to suffer the "dehumanising" experience of having to shell out a few quid every month?

Just out of interest, of those who pay taxes here, how many feel dehumanised, or enslaved? And if you do, do you not feel compensated by the benefits that earning sufficient cash to qualify for tax payer status brings?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:20 / 16.04.03
not really comparable to the “lets have kids without any notion of supporting them” attitude is it now little Haus.

You are taking advantage of other people's money to educate and doctor your children. You are not supporting them. You are relying on the handout of education and healthcare by a state funded by better-off citizens.

If you disagree with the welfare state so much, stop exploiting it. That's all I'm saying. The fact that you are having trouble with the idea suggests that you are probably a low earner, which means that I and *my* community probably contribute an asymmetric amount to providing for your children's education and healthcare, and thus that I can treat you as even more of a subhuman, just as you do people who are worse off than you.

W00T! I am really beginning to like the way you think, Leap. It's like a high-earner's charter.
 
 
waxy dan
12:20 / 16.04.03
Leap.

"Only if it can be done by acts of personal charity – yoking up the responsible to meet the demands of the irresponsible is like having the seeing following the blind."

Ya see, my difficulty in this debate is that I don't, in fact, altogether disagree with you.
But your solution of "good people will come to the rescue" is just unrealistic. They don't and won't. It's not a solution. If welfare was withdrawn tomorrow, do you think that the various NGO's and charities would be able to take the strain?
 
  

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