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The Breeding Exam - what would you put on it?

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ONLY NICE THINGS

08:11 / 11.04.03

From the beginning of another thread entirely:

What if we put a form of birth control in the water supply? And then have would be parents go through a long and thorough series of tests showing they have the maturity to raise a child?

Now, the ethics of this particualr course of action are being discussed at some length elsewhere, but it strikes me that the question of the exam itself is an interesting one.

So, what questions or tasks would you set on this "breeding exam", and why? If you'd rather, you could instead think of a "citizenship exam", of the kind our own Home Secretary talks about every so often.

08:28 / 11.04.03

Question 1

Do you believe that a “breeding exam” containing any question(s) other than this one is in any way morally acceptable?

Answers to Q1

If answer is either ‘Yes’ or ‘Don’t know’ then their result is a Fail.
If answer is ‘No’ the their result is a Pass
If answer is ‘Do not know’ they have at least a level of education beyond the tabloid level of regular contraction, and so should be allowed a re-sit at a later date

09:56 / 11.04.03

'What do you think makes a good society?'
'What will you do about overpopulation and environmental destruction?'
'What are the three most important things you will teach your child?'
'Would you accept a cash alternative to the right to procreation/citizenship?'

The Natural Way

10:04 / 11.04.03

"Would your child be really good at fighting, so that if the world DOES go to shit he/she would be able to look after hirself?"

10:22 / 11.04.03

In truth it would need to be a simple test of general citizenship competency – with the result being either a pass of fail (none of this ‘honours’ / 2nd class crap) – marked on your behaviour between age 15 and 20 (backed up by a solid community and sound education system – not the political football / tax-supported-economy-preparation we have today) rather than an 'exam'.

Its marking standards would be resistance to greed and snobbery, ability to act from precedent, respect for the privacy of self and others, ability for generosity and resistance to both obsession and apathy.

My 3p worth (inflation!)

11:32 / 11.04.03

I can't see how one can sensibly ask this question without entering into ethics. But perhaps that is because I just can't ignore my initial reaction to the potential questions - that a hierarchy is being proposed that is to the benefit of the question setter(s).

11:38 / 11.04.03

Lurid -

What would you offer as alternative?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:52 / 11.04.03

Lurid: To a very great extent I agree with you, but since nobody seemed able to put forward, much less defend, what the exams might consist of on the other thread, it seemed sensible to start a more specific one.

Quantum: So, who would you get in to mark the answers? You seem to have asked questions that may provide a degree of illumination on the individual, but not ones with clear right/wrong divisions. Also, you have instinctively set essay questions, which it seems are bound to favour people from a specific set of educational circumstances. Are the educated middle classes to inherit the Earth?

Leap: How would you measure and mark your criteria? And how would you get there from here? Are you saying that in the current society, the mechanisms of the state are such that one could not effectively test people for either reproductive suitability or desirability as a citizen? And why are the 5 years between 15 and 20 so important?

11:54 / 11.04.03

To what? A breeding exam? Nothing really. I can't see how it can be done without gross abuses of what I consider to be human rights. Free contraception and education would probably help population growth. If the experience of the developed world is anything to go by, this problem may not overly severe if we were to have some sort of global (economic) justice.

For citizenship? Again, mostly nothing. Or at least, not more than we do have. A hopefully minimal set of democratically agreed laws to protect people and their rights (some of which may be in conflict) and a penal system applied to abusers of those laws. The presumption being that one is a citizen by right.

12:01 / 11.04.03

Last post in response to Leap, obviously.

Haus: I see where you are coming from but isn't it a little unkind to ask a question whose answers you will probably object to on principle?

12:11 / 11.04.03

My apologies - sarcasm comes easily to me, but is not always explicit on MBs....

We already have a 'system' (yuk!) of 'breeding exam' - we call it 'dating' which typically happens between the ages of 15 to 20

What is needed is a set of criteria that allows sensible choices to be made by individuals (we each control breeding by choosing who we breed with). Those criteria IMO [apologies to Quantum who has shown great patience and put up with me on this before

] are centred around the idea of dignity, dignity being a matter of (in no particular order):

i. A society built upon Privacy not Supervision
ii. A society built upon Self-restraint (born of education and a sense of perspective) not Behavioural Enforcement
iii. A society built on Egalitarianism (believing that the vast majority of people have the capability for competence – making ‘competence’ the standard) not Elitism (belief that ‘mere’ competence is insufficient but that ‘exceptional’ is the standard).
iv. The holding to Vigilance (defending the dignity of others and self by neither abusing others nor allowing yourself to be abused)
v. A society built on the Modest not the Exceptional.

Thus we should teach this as the centre-point of our society and then let folks make their own decision as regards breeding!

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:12 / 11.04.03

Not really, no. My feelings aren't really the issue, after all. I was just having trouble getting my head around the idea that a set exam could be provided for entitlement to procreation (although citizenship is a slightly different kettle of fish) and thought it would be interesting to see what might be possible in the way of creating something fair and shiny.

One of the things that has come out so far is that, as is implicit in some posts and explicit in Leap's, you might not be able to get there from here - the way societies and bureaucracies are put together will inevitably militate against a fair and equal treatment. Also, the idea that at the root of this one would be setting criteria for the constitution of your society is an interesting one.

Crimes_Of_Fashion

12:23 / 11.04.03

3 questions :

Do you live in a trailer?

Are you using pregnancy as birth control?

spell 'inbred cracker fuck'

12:35 / 11.04.03

Haus- open questions not essay questions. Any exam based on multiple choice or yes/no answers is fundamentally flawed IMO, so I carry that opinion over to hypothetical questionnaires like this.
(Just to make it clear I am *fully* opposed to any procreation exam, citizenship is a different kettle of fish. The right to procreate is not the same as the right to enter and benefit from a social contract that requires other people to be nice to you)
Having said that, of course I get to judge the exams, anyone else could be an inbread Cracka Fuck

12:54 / 11.04.03

Quantum -

You are just pissed 'cos he picked you out as "middle-class"

13:06 / 11.04.03

It would depend on the type of human you are trying to breed.
All human sex taboos are merely a form of eugenic breeding programs.
The test would depend, if it were to be succesful, on one issue,
What type of human are you trying to breed?

13:27 / 11.04.03

Surely we need some music questions in there - and something to ensure they've read and understood 'The Invisibles'?

Facetiousness aside, even assuming this is a desirable end, I don't see any realistic way of enacting such a concept.

14:33 / 11.04.03

Leap- I'm proud to be middle class, we're the underdog nowadays- middle class is the new working class!

Hermes- Re: Eugenic breeding programs, if that's the case why isn't everybody beautiful, charismatic, intelligent and sexy? That's what people usually look for isn't it? Clearly breeding for such qualities doesn't work.
This isn't about breeding a better human, it's about ensuring that children have responsible parents and don't have to grow up trapped in difficult circumstances. Or it's about decreasing the population starting with the 'least worthy'. Or it's about imposing our values on people if they want to breed...
In fact the least ethically dodgy way to achieve this is to nuke the trailer parks, Crimes of Fashion I know you'll agree with me there.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:53 / 11.04.03

Surely we need some music questions in there - and something to ensure they've read and understood 'The Invisibles'?

I like the way you think.

Seriously, I don't think the simple question "Do you think we need a breeding exam to stop the ignorant masses from breeding?" can be topped. Then, if the candidate answers 'yes', we prevent them from breeding through the simple measure of shooting them in the fucking head.

19:39 / 11.04.03

If the appendage in fig.a is inserted, repeatedly, into the orofice in fig.b, please list all potential or likely outcomes. Extra paper is available for the imaginative or for viewers of channel 5.

Note to examiners: has the candidate included pregnancy at any point?

Pass / Fail

20:36 / 11.04.03

WHAT... is yer name?
WHAT... is yer quest?
and WHAT.... is yer favourite colour? ("blue...no, yellow.. AAAHH!")

Nietzsch E. Coyote

06:16 / 12.04.03

Orr's question but follow up with mandatory sex education upon failure. That way they only need to take the test eight times.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

06:22 / 12.04.03

"Who are you?"

"Dalenn."

"That is the label given to you by others. Who are you?"

"Dalenn"

zzzap. "Repeated incorrect answers will be met by increasing voltage. Who are you?"

04:05 / 15.04.03

we are alot like dogs, in fact if the baboon were the big cat of the savanah, we would have to be the primate equivlent of the dog. and i didn't say they were effective, or scientifically designed. but surely deseases like diabetes and heart disease would be a disqualification. it would be a touchy issue for most. probably would only be possible once our population got to an extreme size. once that happens, who should be allowed to breed? i think the test should be designed with that in mind. athletes, great scientists? who should breed?

04:09 / 15.04.03

and we can't destroy the trailer park people, who would pick up the trash?????

12:45 / 15.04.03

Our population has already reached an extreme size. We are using more resources than the earth can replenish, and are on our way to dooming ourselves by our unsustainable lifestyles.

13:03 / 15.04.03

Quantum -

That said, the trailer park folks did not get us here, it is us graduates who did..................

The Natural Way

16:36 / 15.04.03

"Can your child leap REALLY high?"

17:40 / 15.04.03

quantum~ re: yr last question: are you suggesting that ppl be *paid* to not have children? if it were up to you, would you give me money to not do something i don't wish to anyway? are you running for emperor of the world? cos you'd have my vote!

07:28 / 16.04.03

praying mantis
"are you suggesting that ppl be *paid* to not have children?"

Now saying this is going to get me into trouble, but...
Working in the Dublin suburbs for several years, I often (as in quite frequently) overheard young mothers talking to their friends, on the bus, about how much they were being paid for child allowance, and how they were planning to have a couple more for that reason. The children were literally being discussed like bonus cheques.

Yup, I think it'd be grrrrr-eat if they were paid to remain childless. Maybe some questions regarding the potential financial benifits/burdens of having a child.

08:30 / 16.04.03

Or perhaps remove child allowance and give it back as tax breaks (encouraging a family (TWO parents) one of whom works, rather than encouraging single 'mothers' who do not work (and who also 1. use kids as 'bonus cheques' and 2. Are increasingly the ammount of houses needed))...............

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:38 / 16.04.03

...thus penalising single parents?

Im interested by the idea of the "welfare mother". Given how much it costs to raise a child, is there a convincing financial argument for extra children? Always struck me as queer maths...

Whisky Priestess

08:44 / 16.04.03

Let's see ... at the moment the breeding exam seems to consist of:

1) Are you over 16 (13 in Tennessee)?

2) Are you in possession of a set of working reproductive organs?

3) Are you prepared to use them without combining that use with a set of working contraceptives?

Perhaps we do need something more...

08:48 / 16.04.03

Less of the scare quotes, please - you may not think much of these single mothers but they are nonetheless mothers, not 'mothers'. Moreover they may not have made an actual decision to be single; and if they have, for whatever reason, they shouldn't be punished for that decision. Also there's a very good reason why single mothers may not work - benefits don't cover the true cost of childcare and not many workplaces offer creche facilities: what are they supposed to do? In addition, if the system of benefits makes it easier to manage with more children, I'm not sure that the balance of the blame doesn't lie with the system; I doubt that endless press about evil single mothers living the life of Riley on benefits, however untrue or unrepresentative those stories may be, persuade people that having children on benefits is actually pretty tough. And if I were stuck in a B&B, living on meagre benefits with my child and with no prospect of being able to get a job (for the aforementioned reason) I might not be averse to a) having another child if I wanted one and b) trying to get any extra benefits to which I might be entitled under the current system. I don't think it's really right to have a child purely to move up housing lists etc; but at the same time, I doubt a mother who conceived for that reason would love the child any less when it was born.

What you hear on buses probably isn't the full story. I object to the sweeping denunciations of single mothers and 'trailer-park' people - you're just perpetuating discrimination by shovelling all these people into the same cesspit.

09:09 / 16.04.03

Just to clarify: From personal experience, I have no end of respect for single mothers who really try to make it work for their children. Mine was very forunate that we grown old enough to be in school, so she could work days. Many aren't, and I do realise that.

They're not, however, the 'group' (using a term of categoristion very loosely) I'm referring to. In Ireland certainly, there are a lot of very young mothers who still live with their parents (who pay most of the cost of raising their grandchildren) and who honestly consider having children to be a financial benifit.

No, I don't think in the long run it's going to work out that way. But I'm talking about teenagers who are considering money for their drinks on a Friday night. They're not a very responsible bunch. I know I wasn't at that age.

In this case, I don't think the "welfare mother" (to borrow Haus' phrase) is thinking of decades of hard work. Perhaps this is a problem with education in a country where talking about sex is still kinda taboo.

"I'm not sure that the balance of the blame doesn't lie with the system". It certainly does. No question about that. That was the point I was trying to make in the context of this thread: creating a system that might forsee such problems, and deal with them in a -constructive- manner.

"What you hear on buses probably isn't the full story. I object to the sweeping denunciations of single mothers and 'trailer-park' people - you're just perpetuating discrimination by shovelling all these people into the same cesspit."
That really wasn't my intention. I'm very sorry if I gave that impression.

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