Barbelith Underground > Conversation > The Breeding Exam

Of course in a society centred on modesty not luxury, such would require a family to raised and support the children, not some “idle rich” parasite.

I’m certainly with you on the “idle rich parasite” question. No Prince Edward, Archduke of Ruritania and Essex, in LeapTopia and that would be a fine thing. I guess my problem with the “slapper” question is that throughout recorded history people have had unwise sex, resulting in the birth of unfunded and unplanned children (I was one myself), and not because they were bad people. They do it because we are wired up that way. I just don’t think a woman should be punished forever more because she ends up pregnant because some chap, and possibly she too, indulged in unlicensed passion for ten minutes. I am even more sure that this resultant child should not suffer. Your argument seems to be that letting this child wither and die would teach a valuable lesson and discourage other people from engaging in the aforesaid unwise ten minutes of passion. I think we are looking at the child resulting from this passionate episode from different sides of a major philosophical divide. You see the child as a burden on the individual /community /state. I see children as a common good, the next generation who carry forward all our plans and dreams and DNA. As I said in my first post, for me or any person other than the mother of the child to invest in the welfare and education of that child can only have a beneficial outcome both for the child and for the future of whatever community it belongs to.

I will admit to rising to the bait every time I see the word “slapper”. IMO it is a nasty, misogynist term, entirely devout of any merit. In the instance in which you are using it, its use suggests that women have a particular responsibility to avoid becoming pregnant through sexual engagement with men. We obviously disagree on the question of whether women should ever have sex with men unless they are making a commitment to remain with them through the entire dependent life of any resultant children. People are prone to making mistakes and, sometimes, shit happens that they could not genuinely have foreseen or planned for. Most of the time they either take responsibility for the consequences of their actions or they’re lucky and few, if any, negative consequences ensue. If someone is unable or unwilling to take that responsibility, I don’t think the child should be punished. My father’s entire life has, in some major ways, been blighted by his illegitimacy and I’m very glad that would be unlikely to happen nowadays.

I get the impression that you’re not necessarily making a moral judgment on a woman’s sexual behaviour here, just her ability to control her reproductive cycle 100%. But then you use the word “slapper”, so I’m not sure.

Mere wish fulfilment? How so?

I think many posters, me included, have suggested to you that your plan to make all of this theoretical framework a reality is unsound and we have pointed to the many impracticalities we see. You seem to fall back each time on your faith in someone “educating” people to be better and in the application of severe physical and emotional sanctions by the worthies of the parish. If you have explained other ways to implement your model in the real world, without resort to the historical templates I referred to, I have obviously missed it. I think you’re doing a fine job in terms of stamina, keeping up with our queries and criticisms of your model, as I said above, but you don’t often supply a solution to the potential flaws in your plan that people have raised. If there’s more detail on other ways to implement LeapTopia, maybe I’ll come across them if I scour the thread again at some point.

my crime is that I am an optimist whilst you would advocate apathy?!!

I don’t advocate apathy. I simply accept, as I thought I had said clearly, that people may not be sufficiently civic-minded in practice to allow your social model. I base this upon observation of the world around me and upon all of recorded history. It really would be fab if it weren’t so but wishing it were not won’t make it happen. It’s great to be optimistic. Being unrealistically optimistic when other people may suffer because of it is not a very responsible way to proceed.

Why not? Please support your statements with argument. You said this in response to my assertion that Individual philanthropy is just never going to cut it. I had just given you one argument. Do you even bother to read and reflect upon what other posters write?

I made reference to “many good people who hit the skids at some point in their lives and, without some sort of safety net, would have spiralled down to destitution and a miserable end in a cardboard box under a railway arch”.

Since I, like Ganesh, work in the mental health world, I’m thinking specifically here about the same individuals whose career of illness would, IMO, mean that their needs would not be met in LeapTopia and for whom our present welfare arrangements, imperfect as they are, are necessary. I won’t elaborate because he has already given eloquent examples to flesh out that scenario.

When have I advocated anything but principled anarchy (the basis of which is the LACK of any leader/govt)? Do not accuse me of you fantasy fears please!

See why I have a problem with your implementation plan? No leader or government. It will just all happen because, like cows in a field when there’s rain on the way, everybody will instinctively move in the one direction that makes sense. No way, no how. I cannot think of any time or place where a society without some form of government didn’t leave an opening for a Strong Leader who throve on the simple fact that everybody can always be convinced that the other man’s grass is greener because he has some unfair advantage. Maybe you can cite some contrary example. Because a community is vulnerable or may be squashed by external force majeur does not, of course, make it a bad ideal, just means you can’t afford to plunge into heedlessly optimistic social change and then hope for the best. I’d be more convinced were there a road map that could be followed.

Stimulating, debating this back and forward though. Just because nobody has made it work so far doesn’t mean nobody ever could. There are lots of lessons in history that can guide the plan to make it actually happen, however.

The Breeding Exam - what would you put on it?