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Lay Down Your Guns

 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
 
autopilot disengaged
09:14 / 08.03.03
here's where my optimism comes from:

it's frustrating to attend demo after demo and watch the result disappear into a backpage paragraph. it's rather more gratifying to see very genuine pressure put on the uk govt.

to see a genuine schism in the UN that, even if it doesn't stop them this time, does destroy the previous formal legitimacy so self-righteously paraded in the past. if this marks the end of the security council, that may not be such a bad thing. the arrangement of the council is not the best advert for genuine global democracy.

it will *not* be the end of the UN. it *will* push those opposed to current US policy closer together. and the range of opposition is unprecedented - powerful nations, respected institutions, religious leaders, legal experts, scientists, artists, *celebrities*...

i share peoples' disgust that bush & co continue marching merrily on despite facing such opposition, but almost think this needs to happen to solidify the alliance. iraq will be a massacre - especially if they follow thru with their 800 missiles 'shock and awe' fest.

the US/UK have failed to convince with their arguments for the necessity of war right now - the images from the war itself may be the nail in the coffin of any moral authority.

and flux, over in the uk, i can count on one hand the amount of people i've spoken to for the war. i can attest to various non-political people i've spoken to who become so angry at what's happening, unprompted. there is a growing instinctive anti-americanism (not saying this is a good thing, but demonstrates a fundamental change). i don't have a problem with anti-european feeling. it means europe's beginning to assert itself, and not just fall into line.

nothing's changed within the left. but when the cities of europe are damn near occupied by protestors from every walk of life, it's difficult to still feel like a voice in the wilderness.

seriously: this is a shift.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
09:47 / 08.03.03
I hope you're right, autopilot, that this is different. The persistence of popular opinion in the UK and "Old" Europe in opposing military action to is heartening, given the furious propagandising coming from Bush, Blair and buddies. That the political machinations are more upfront than they have been in the past is no doubt a large part of people engaging sufficiently to protest in great numbers. Enforced régime change, such as the ousting of Allende in Chile, was certainly not openly discussed and advertised.

I can see how that gives you encouragement. Perhaps you're right; ignorance is rarely bliss and never empowering. However, my problem with the unabashed aggression heralded by the White House (with TB yapping at George's coattails like a chihuahua and having as much sway) is that they have no doubt and no shame and can therefore afford this confidence and can dismiss our opposition because we are an annoyance and noit an insuperable obstacle.

As Flyboy pointed out at the threadhead, many of us are just feeling tired and defeated, precisely because we can feel the strength of the argument against war and can see it widely shared but it still feels like it will make no difference in the face of George's desire to reshape the map of the Middle East.

It's their wilful blindness to the aftermath of their actions that scares me. I listen to Bush reading out his script from Disneyland, where fluffy bunnies inherit the Earth and the Iraqis are set at last on the right path, as we infallible Western Powers dictate it, and I can't believe anybody would buy that scenario.

The Law of Unintended Consequences got us into this mess, in large part, with our drafting of national borders in that part of the world to suit ourselves after the Great War and our years of venal arms and infrastructure business with these régimes we affect now to despise.

The Law of Unintended Consequences (not to mention Murphy's Law) will, in my opinion, cause those advocating this war to rue the day in a future time but who cares as long as Bush, the John Waynesque war leader, can drive up his poll ratings back home?

I would love to be less cynical and more optimistic about it. I wish Xs was right and, if those preferring the use of such blunt instruments of diplomacy are proved right then egg on my face is a small price to pay for Saddam rotting away in some Saudi suburb and a functioning democracy (admittedly, it would be one of the few) in the arab world.

Back to what Flyboy said up top, I'm just tired of trying to make the argument. There's nothing new or more compelling for us to say. The arguments for the war utterly fail to convince me and I am not a rabid peacenik nor a naïve sloganeer. I genuinely do want to hear an argument for the war which has enough force to give me pause, just one convincing case made that the outcome would be better than the policies of containment have been since Saddam last breached his boundaries.

If I were an Iraqi about to be bombed, I'd really want to hear a good reason. I just don't usually engage in the argument any more because my frustration makes me snarl and I don't think that is a strategy to convince anyone to question their position. It keeps me off some other boards entirely now because it's just too depressing to see the tidal wave of war drums and rhetoric sweeping sense away.

There are stupid people and some utter bastards on both sides of the argument, without doubt, often callous and unashamed in relating it all to their own interests. The great majority in both camps are not fools however and not bad people. The outcomes they desire are probably pretty much the same but the argument is about means, in the end. It just seems to me that warfare, particularly such an assymetrical battle, is so evidently neither effective nor justified as means.

Words, words, words. What earthly use are they? All these crap 1939 analogies, all this taunting and white feathering. We've all thought about it and jumped, most of us, one way or the other. The die is surely cast.

I'm off down the pub - the ostrich strategy, wiggling my arse in the air.
 
 
_pin
12:02 / 08.03.03
The war's become just about the only thing I write about on my blog anymore (you may have noticed). It just feels like, if I don't say STUPID and make snide references to oil and the West Bank and call world leadred twats, then someone may come across my blog and not know where I stand on the war. The fuck??

But in the past few days, I've been getting mroe and more annoyed with the anti-warers. There's just something about the way people are still going "Aaaah... but who sold him the weapons?" becuase everyone can go "France". I am getting fucked off with jsut about everything everyone says on the war, because no one seems to be saying anything new. We've never said anything new on this. We've been slinging shit at each other (pro and anti, this is), and there's a mass of people in the middle who don't seem to know either way. By looking at my own reactions to news reports about Muagbe, I'm wondering just why i appear to be capable of such an hipocracy- act against Mugabe! But not against Suddam! Is that what I'm saying?

I want action in Iraq. But I don't want America to do it. I want America to help it, sure. I want a revolution in Iraq, but can we ever have that? The CIA has let them die so many times now, is there an infrastructure there to work on, even?

The worst thing about being anti-war tho is the Iraqis. The ones on MTV and in studio debates, who knacker all my arguments and go "We want war!". What amazes me is that the pros don't seem to making much use of these people, so maybe I can take some solace in the fact that they plan to fuck them over when they get to Baghdad anyway, and do the same thing all over again.

And there in lies the only argument that I have. "Not in my name" sounds wrong. It feels like it should be “Not in your name, in their name” or, indeed, “Not in yr name, you nob-faced oil hungry wanker”. Democracy just isn’t going to work if it’s pushed on people from above, especially if the people involved seemed to feel that democracy just isn’t “them” (as I’ve heard a fair few radio-friendly Muslims say).

And lastly- how clear is it that this just isn’t about the Kurds. America was willing to pay a shit load of money to Turkey, who fuck the Kurds over all the time and will flip out if the Kurds get their own country.

All I know now is that “solace” ois a nice word and the story about the monkeys makes me smile.
 
 
rizla mission
14:33 / 08.03.03
Hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way, but the use of the "current Iraqi regime does bad things, if we end it, the replacement - even if it's US occupation - will do less bad things" argument really, really pisses me off, even though in a practical sense this may be true.

Clearly any humanitarian concerns are way, way down on the priority list. There are dozens of governments that do bad things and kill people. Nobody sane has ever proposed that human rights violations should be stopped by means of fucking bombing and invasion. The central questions that seem to have been lost by both sides are - WHY IRAQ? WHY NOW? WHO PROPOSED THE IDEA? WHO MADE SURE IT GOT ON THE FRONT PAGE OF EVERY PAPER FOR A MONTH? and above all, WHO BENEFITS MOST?
 
 
Bill Posters
13:06 / 09.03.03
I have been behaving rather badly lately but at least its been honest. Sorry if any of the way your feeling is to do with me, Fly. But what can I say? Life's a shit.
 
 
Ganesh
18:57 / 09.03.03
I know what you mean. The mix of anger and defeatism colours everything, making me fractious and irritable. More and more, I find myself starting long, detailed posts in response to the 'but somebody's got to do something' stuff - then, midway through, becoming too bloody weary to finish, and deleting what I've written.
 
 
Seth
21:34 / 09.03.03
My sister recently cc'd an email she'd been sent by a pro-war American friend, asking for advice on how to respond to him. She's a anti-war in Iraq by conscience rather than by information: she needed help constructing an argument.

I'm not the greatest political thinker by anyone's definition. I spent a long time today trawling through old Barbelith threads, the Guardian's website, any links I could find, until I had found a robust response to all the points he had raised. It took a lot of time and effort: all the while I seemed to be resisting, the only reason I completed the task being the knowledge that my sister was relying on me.

And then I completed it and clicked on "Send" and felt truly fucking great. I don't fully know whether I'd done it justice, but I'd done something. It was an act of will, and I need to develop more of a taste for acts of will. Whether what I did changes anyone's mind is irrelevant - I had broken through my own personal inertia, fear and apathy.

A while back I committed to a task of achieving at least one important task per day. I let it slip: it's easy to dismiss as a dumb exercise in forced pop-psychology self-actualizing bullshit, but it's not. It's something that I need right now, before I turn into someone I don't like. Does anyone feel like joining me? A simple, small target of one important, difficult but rewarding task per day.
 
 
Saveloy
15:54 / 10.03.03
Flyboy:

"It can't possibly be good sign that you find yourself fantasising about anyone's violent death - even David Blunkett."


Just recently - over the last couple of weeks or so - I've found myself fighting an almost irresistable urge to physically assault any complete stranger who irritates me, which is quite worrying if you're not used to it (the urge, that is).

This feeling reached a peak on Saturday afternoon while watching
"What the Papers Say", when I decided that I was going to find and kill
Simon Heffer and as many other Daily Mail and Express columnists as I could before being arrested or shot. It wasn't just an "ooh, I'd like to smack his legs!" moment, it was a burning conviction - which lasted a good 10 seconds or more before I realised what a prick I was being - that the lot of them MUST DIE. I've never felt more certain about the rightness of something than I did then. Every one of the virtual critics in my head (the ones who normally derail any train of thought before it's even got out of the shed) was completely behind me, thumbs up, "do it, son" etc. I've probably never felt so ready and determined to do something so unbelievably stupid.

I mentioned it to my wife, along with the observation that the average man on the street is looking even more aggressive and thumpable than normal, and she put it down to the approach of Spring: "It's the rutting season."

Spring fever? War frenzy? Government putting chemicals in the water to make us all up for a fight? Or am I just suffering from brain damage?
 
 
grant
17:19 / 10.03.03
HAARP.
 
 
illmatic
17:23 / 10.03.03
I'm liking this thread. I have to say, in a somewhat cheesy expresion of fraternity, that once again, the clarity and depth of thought in people's responses and feelings here is heartening in itself. It's one thing I love about Barbelith.

As to this whole scratchiness business, I hadn't looked at this thread till just now, but I did get very fucked off with Barbelith and online rows towards the beginning of last week. Maybe I picked up on something in the ether.

Tom addressed some of this stuff a while back in the "New Futility" thread, that intense sense of frustration and disillusionment with our political systems and masters. I think this is something we're going to see, and feel, a lot more of in coming years as our goverments increasingly lose their legitamacy. When/if something positive, a replacement, will come out of it, I don't know. But I've already seen some commentary to the effect that, the Bush's goverments policies are so extreme, there's a reaction taking hold, in people's awareness even if it's expressed in political action yet. Whether it's Blair destroying our faith in democracy or Bush giving tax cuts to the rich, the damage they're doing to the social fabric has got to have some effect at some point. Light goes to dark and back again and all that.

I was talking to Kit Kat Club over the weekend about some of this stuff - I mooted the idea that myabe most of us came to political conciousness in quite an odd time, the 90's, with the Berlin Wall coming down, US/UK ecomonies expading. With no major enemy to focus on and fear, perhaps we've forgotten how vicous and mendacious world politics really is. For those who grew up in a different time, the soviet-hating recycled Reaganites, perhaps they feel home from home in this situation?

And I like Reflect's idea above. My political ideas have been tempered in recent years by the awareness of how little I can really do. Keeping things in perspctive like this stops me being too attached and hung up on the fruits of actions. Still do, but without the same expectationof a huge result or massive change. I think trying to focus on simple things like this is a fine suggestion - "don't try to change the world, just don't let the world change you".
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:37 / 10.03.03
When this situation first took off I felt an odd sense of relief. I had grown up in a time that felt so stagnant, so little meaning, that there seemed to be odd resolution in this. Almost as if the world had been building up to it. Now I feel weary. Unrecognised and weary and interrupted by everything. My personal life is a reflection in that I find it increasingly difficult to work or play, six months ago I had unbridled energy and poured it in to everything, now I resent having to expend that energy on anything at all. I hate to be in company for long periods of time, need to be alone, hate to make idle conversation. I would like nothing better then the opportunity to stay in bed for a very long time.

It's almost as if the anger's ground down in to absence but that absence leaves too much space for erratic emotion, a rollercoaster ride of anger and depression and just plain silliness, so yes I suppose I am emphasising the words of Kit- Cat and some of the rest of you. The anger that underlines it all- yes, I've become nasty. It doesn't come across here, in text, I control what I say but in reality I'm somewhere between super-bitch and despondent caricature.

Actually I've been so off tilt for the last couple of weeks that only now can I write this. My head seems to have cleared quite suddenly, alone again and slightly grounded. Now- if only someone could lend me some focus I could do what I have to.
 
 
that
11:57 / 11.03.03
I'm a hideous, hideous human being lately, as my family and Lilith Myth will happily testify. Fucking Medusa, I swear it. Scratchy scratchy scratch. I put it down to not being able to cut myself anymore...no other release for the tension. Awful. I'm sorry, everyone.
 
 
Dances with Gophers
14:57 / 11.03.03
Reading this, talking to people in the office and generally observing prople out anger, depression scratchiness etc etc seems to be a common complaint at the mo. I know that I have been in a bad space recently, anger, depression apathy. I think the general political situation and the media are alot to blame. As a slight aside Mars is at somepoint this year going to be at its closed to earth for X number of years....Maybe there is something in that after all!?

However I'd like to say that to me Barbelith has been a bit of an internet sanctuary over the last few weeks.
 
 
No star here laces
17:06 / 11.03.03
Hmmm, I got to say that I really don't empathise.

I don't feel defeated and I don't feel it's about fighting.

It's the calm before the storm. March 17th, the 'date' is monday for fucks sake. This will all kick off imminently.

And really, we shouldn't be surprised that the world's leaders ignore street demonstrations and public opinion. Where does it say they have to? Our social contract with our leaders says every few years we get to choose them from the limited pool available and then they go off and do what they think is right (or what they think will get them re-elected).

Then they either get re-elected, or they don't.

So I have to ask, honestly, what did you expect? And why is this so different from Kosovo, for example?

And since when have you ever been able to convince anyone of anything by arguing with them? People do not change their mind because of rational argument. It is well known that it is not what you say that is persuasive, but how much the person you are talking to likes you. Which is about what they know about you, your personal history and the way you express yourself.

I think the point here is that, maybe for the first time in our lives, the world is getting worse instead of better. I mean, much as we railed against globalisation or whatever the fact is that throughout the last 20 years people have been getting richer, dying later and there have been less wars. Pollution has been reduced, racism has decreased and women have better representation in society.

Now we're mired in what looks like being an extended economic downturn. There will be a war. That much is obvious. The UN will be called into question and muslims will be very angry all over the world. Israel/Palestine will get worse. Of course we all feel like crap.

There are two questions - will it get better after it gets worse, and what are we all going to do about it?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
18:57 / 11.03.03
"WHY IRAQ? WHY NOW? WHO PROPOSED THE IDEA? WHO MADE SURE IT GOT ON THE FRONT PAGE OF EVERY PAPER FOR A MONTH? and above all, WHO BENEFITS MOST?"

Here's the thing that gets me. Getting rid of Saddam would not be a bad thing. If the restructuring went right it would almost certainly benefit the people of Iraq. No more sanctions, no more killings for speaking out against the government. Some would die during the war, but in the long run the Iraqi people might be better off. My question is even our leaders aren't doing it for these reasons, does that necessarily make it a bad idea?

And how many people are anti-war because it's the trendy thing to be? An earlier poster said that his sister opposed the war in Iraq but needed help defending her position because she knows nothing about it, she just doesn't like war.
 
 
_pin
19:21 / 11.03.03
Denfeld- without the right reasons for doing this, why would we assume the people will be liberated. it clearly isn't about Kurds, because America won't give their support to them and they're willing to bankroll Turkish oppresion of them in return for bases.

And so from this we can see that it probablly isn't going to be about liberation at all, and besides- no one ever likes democracy if their religion keeps saying that it is incompatible with democracy (what the fuck are you- Microsoft??), but America's gonna keep shooting you 'til you take yr democratic right to freedom.

It's just a shit idea. Wanna know why it's a shit idea? Because it's really obviously a shit idea.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:33 / 11.03.03
An earlier poster said that his sister opposed the war in Iraq but needed help defending her position because she knows nothing about it, she just doesn't like war.

See, it's never good to be ill-informed, but I fail to see why a general distaste for war would be a problem with you. There are lots of reasons to be against a war which do not require you to be knowledgeable about the war itself. For example, there's a good chance that if you're American, you probably know someone who will probably be sent overseas and may die. You may have a general empathy for the inevitable innocent victims of war in Iraq. You may resent that your country is pouring billions of dollars into a war while the economy at home is completely fucked and you're struggling to get by, and a warhawk Republican government is killing many social services. There's lots of reasons, really.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
21:17 / 11.03.03
I don't know if a general distaste for war is necessarily a problem for me. But if you went over all the wars that have been fought in the world some of them have had positive results. Or rather more positive than if war had not been waged (Think the Germans in WW2, which is probably too easy as the Nazis were cartoonishly evil).

Will American soldiers die? Probably, but speaking as an ex-army fella, these kids know that part of the job is that they may be called into war. I know that G.I.Bill looks good, but you should be prepared to wage war if you join the military.

I have empathy for the innocent victims who may die in Iraq. I think that in the long run more civilian Iraqis will be helped, even if it's a worse case scenario with a puppet government.

And I confess a bit of ignorance on democracy not being compatible with Islam. Could someone give me examples? Is Islam better compatible with tyrranical madmen? Is it somewhere in the Koran?

My question was this. Even if the liberation of the Iraqi people wasn't the U.S.'s main motivation, if the liberation was just something extra to their main goals, is that necessarily a bad thing?

I'm not necessarily pro-war. I just think the people of Iraq might have a better life if a democratic government was put into place.

My own solution would involve no violence. I would simply offer Saddam all the money we plan to bribe other countries for letting us use their land in the war. Saddam could spend the rest of his life living in luxury in the south of France, instead of dying in war and losing his country anyway. And we don't have to call it a bribe, think of it more as humanitarian relief.
 
 
Brigade du jour
21:28 / 11.03.03
Oh man, why didn't I think of this? I'm such a soppy, idealistic, unrealistic, pacifist, wet, drippy, placating pussy you know. I absolutely do not really want a battle, and I definitely don't feel like fighting anyone any more. I'm not sure I ever did, except perhaps in the throes of a perpetually incipient puberty, but even that was a while ago now.

"You're going 2 have 2 fight your own damn war
'Cos we don't want 2 fight no more"

Big sigh. Back to work for me dudes. Peace!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:46 / 11.03.03
Oh god, you know I've been avoiding talking to my housemate's friend for a month now because I knew she'd come out with the type of pro-war bullshit that I just can't be bothered to hear.

Of course everyone wants Saddam Hussein out of power because obviously, you know, dictators are fun. It would just be kind of nice if that was the point of the warfare that's already started but it isn't. We don't know the reason, in case you've failed to miss the obvious there has been no valid, practical reason. Looking at this issue you may as well completely ignore pacifism and ra ra ra the general reasons for people going on marches. There are far too many people hanging around who dislike this to bring ethics in to it. No, the majority of the population would just like a reason for a load of soldiers and inncoents dying now, when nothing's different to how it, like, normally is.

And you know, there's this guy I know who isn't on active service anymore, he has a wife and child and he's been called back and sent to Iraq- obviously there's got to be a good reason for him to leave his family nine years after he last fought... it's just unclear to us, right?

Jesus and you know what makes me really fucking tired- all that right wing 'ooh but we can't go through appeasement again' because clearly Hussein is about to conquer the countries that border Iraq and actually, not only appeasement, any comparison between this and every other war that's happened in the last hundred years. Clearly all wars are the same because they just are. Yay. Let's have a fucking party with streamers and things and celebrate a massacre that is currently unofficial but already happening. I'm just crying with joy for our patriotic soldiers 'marching' in to battle.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
23:54 / 11.03.03
"And you know, there's this guy I know who isn't on active service anymore, he has a wife and child and he's been called back and sent to Iraq- obviously there's got to be a good reason for him to leave his family nine years after he last fought... it's just unclear to us, right?"- Anna

Is he American? What a lot of people don't realise is that American military actually sign 8 yr contracts. They know this when they sign on. It usually breaks down 4 yrs active and then 4 yrs inactive (inactive meaning you are basically a civilian unless a war happens in which case you're assigned to a unit). Other contracts can break down differently. For example mine was 2 1/2 yrs active, 1 1/2 reserve (meaning you drill once a month for about a weekend) and then 4 yrs inactive. Watch what you sign people.

"Of course everyone wants Saddam Hussein out of power because obviously, you know, dictators are fun. It would just be kind of nice if that was the point of the warfare that's already started but it isn't."- Anna

That's what I've been talking about. Even if that's not the reason, I'm thinking the result would still be beneficial to the Iraqi people.

Anyway, you might not get so frustrated if instead of bottling your feelings because you're afraid your flatmate's friend is going to say something you disagree with, you just talk with him about it. And don't label people so much. I am not a right-winger, I just see valid points for a war with Iraq, although I think my bribery solution would be better as there would be little bloodloss.
 
 
Ganesh
00:05 / 12.03.03
Perhaps the Iraqis will have a chance to appreciate the benefits of democracy once they've buried their dead, rebuilt their country, chased away opportunists, paid for the war (from whatever oil wells can be extinguished) and either deposed the puppet government or acclimatised to life as the newest, poorest state of the Bush administration's U S of A. That's if they're lucky.

Then what? North Korea?
 
 
Baz Auckland
00:53 / 12.03.03
Referring back to reflect's post at the top, I have to say YES! Acting locally and small and long-term is the only definite way we have of getting change. Not that big idealism is a bad thing. I think unreality is a driving force of humanity.

Whether the Iraqis will be better off isn't up to them either way, which is the worst of it. Yes, they may get to live under Jimmy Carter instead of Saddam next year, but do they want the 800 cruise missles dumped on them in the meantime? And having a government put in place for them isn't the best idea. Let them get their own! Afghanistan apparently isn't doing too well with the govt. we put in place for them, and it may fall soon.

Just because a war seems to be the easiest way to get rid of Saddam to our governments doesn't mean it's the best way. The easiest way to get rid of Castro would be the same route, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. Ending the sanctions would be, though.

(sorry if this is incoherent. I just got out of a subway ride of 'things-i-should-have-said' after an American history class on the Wobblies where someone asked whether people who had lived in America would have been more realistic and practical and I wanted to shout "NO! Reality should not be the measure of our dreams! There are still Anarchists and Wobblies today! And good for them!" but didn't unfortunately)
 
 
Jack Denfeld
01:27 / 12.03.03
If you don't want the war to happen there are a couple of things you can do. Organise into anti-war groups, and make it known to the powers that be you will not support them if they continue this war. Also, don't feel too useless. I think as the years pass and more young anti-war people become the voter block that politicians care about you will see things getting better.
 
 
Ganesh
09:37 / 12.03.03
S'what we seem to be doing...
 
 
Saveloy
14:00 / 12.03.03
grant:

"HAARP"

*deploying ear-trumpet* Eh?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:18 / 12.03.03
Jack D: there are plenty of threads in the Switchboard to debate the pros and cons of the prospective War - I'd rather keep this thread on topic.

Byron: perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but it's not that I have much in the way of doubt about the necessity for anti-war (and other) activism, or even of the gains which it might achieve. I'm not questioning the purpose or rightness of the Struggle - just the effect it's having on me personally. I know that there are people who stick to their principles without turning into either foaming-at-the-mouth loons or wishy-washy moderates, but I'm not sure I have the... facilities? At present, anyway.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:16 / 12.03.03
Actually the guy's British and he did his active years in the army but once you've finished your service in this country you can be called back... I'm a little unclear on the length of time and the people I've talked to about it are all pretty much trying to forget they're going over there so the description hasn't been too clear.

Jack I don't think you understand what I'm saying- this war shouldn't happen because there is no clear reason. When you're killing people you should have a reason or at least follow the irritating old Just War criteria. Regime change is not the aim and the likelihood of warfare resulting in it is ridiculously slim, as most army folk will attest too, Hussein is not a precariously balanced dictator. This is a man secure in his power.

My flatmate's friend will be unreasonable if I talk to her about this. She's not very up on politics and we disagree on most things - I'm an abolitionist and she's totally pro- death penalty. She never answers my points but glosses over them in Blair stylee. I just don't want to talk to her about something like this because it will make me really bloody miserable and I'll want to ring her ignorant neck. I don't have the energy to even watch the politicians anymore.

You sound like a right winger. Sorry but you do, you're up for a war that isn't really going to do anyone any good... at least there's no evidence pointing in that direction.
 
 
Seth
01:15 / 13.03.03
An earlier poster said that his sister opposed the war in Iraq but needed help defending her position because she knows nothing about it, she just doesn't like war.

It's more than possible to take in vast amounts of information at an unconscious level, enabling an opinion to be formed but making it difficult to produce facts on cue. As a matter of fact, I would say it's one of the most prevalent processes in the human mind. Being prepared for a debate is not a natural condition for a great many people.

My question to you: if my sister is genuinely against the war for the wrong reasons, is this necessarily a bad thing? Is it possible that some good may come of it?
 
 
grant
03:15 / 13.03.03
*deploying ear-trumpet* Eh?

HAARP.


Spring fever? War frenzy? Government putting chemicals in the water to make us all up for a fight? Or am I just suffering from brain damage?

HAARP.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:13 / 14.03.03
And no sooner had the dust settled than we're off again, this time in the Magick. How...marvellous.
 
 
Ganesh
08:34 / 14.03.03
Yep. Gotta love the Magick...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:53 / 14.03.03
Actually, I'm pondering starting a thread in the Policy suggesting that we close the Magick.

No, really. Exhibit A:

After providing my thoughts on this thread, I've made an effort over the past few weeks to see whether continuing contributions would yield any positive results. They have not. This thread died. The LBRP thread went nowhere. Other threads here have been pretty much utter wastes of electrons. Enough's enough.

I'd say give me a call if anyone ever decides to discuss magick in any sort of substantive way around here, but I don't much see the point. Pretty much anyone capable's already taken off.

Have fun painting symbols you copied out of some book (but don't understand) onto your floor, posting pictures of doggies and discussing whether anyone here knows anything about "REAL LIFGE".


You see? Nobody's having fun. Nobody's enjoying it, and there are lots of people pretending to be magicians distracting from the serious discussions of the proper magicians. Some of them don't even claim to be magicians at all. Bastards.

So, the magical members don't want to contribute to it, they also don't want people who are not magical to be involved with it, and it seems largely unrelated to the rest of the board. I am aware that it serves a valuable pastoral function, but why should our tax dollars go towards helping it? All it ever seems to do for the rest of Barbelith in return is spread bad feeling....

(The true ipsssssissssimusssss (gay lisp) may detect a degree of cheeky tongueness here. I couldn't say)
 
 
illmatic
09:46 / 14.03.03
Might be an idea (i'd get more work done for a start!) - but I for one would be sorry to see it go. There is some excellent writing on there sometimes, which I'e learnt a lot from. I think a lot of other posters might come out the woodork if you do start such a thread. Be interested to hear what the moderators think - maybe start up the thread?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:48 / 14.03.03
Ye gods, man, put the humane killer *down*...I was only joking.

Let's all eat Eric Roberts instead. Nobody gives a shit about Eric Roberts!
 
  

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