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Capitalismo

 
  

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Capitalist Piglet
17:07 / 27.04.03
Smileys reflect my personality and the fact that I take all my internet dealings lightly. If you don't like that, you can choose not to read my posts, or politely ask me to leave.
 
 
Olulabelle
18:11 / 27.04.03
Slightly off topic, but...

Capitalist Piglet, _pin.

Older is not wiser.

My son's school took part in a survey in which the 10-16 year olds were asked what concerned them most about the future.

They didn't answer Not having enough money, or Not having a job, or Not finding someone they loved. They answered Inheriting a world which is so environmentally unstable we will be unable to mend it.

Pretty right on the nail if you ask me. And they can't even vote yet.
 
 
Leap
18:27 / 27.04.03
Olulabelle –

To continue a little thread rod - How many of them went home in their parents 4x4, to listen to their CDs whilst they played on their playstations? How many of them walked or cycled home to a house where music is primarily something you make yourself/with family/friends and where games are played on boards or in gardens/parks?

Note: Not a criticism aim at them per se, but more a reflection on how much we would have to give up in order to make real environmental change (in a positive way!!!!!!!!) and how much denial there is about the lifestyles we lead.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
19:38 / 27.04.03
olula, sounds to me they were regurgitating some hogwash they've been browbeaten with by MTV "news", the Captain Planet cartoon, and teachers who probably couldn't hack it actually doing what they are teaching...
.
.
.
.
oooh, oh, eek.... a SMILEY!!!!

Seriously, though, these kids are saying things that adults in power over their lives have taught them. When I was in high school, I was saying the same damn thing. "Why can't we save the planet and feed the world and just all get along?" Then you learn that EVERYTHING has a price. You CAN'T have it all. And Leap makes a good point. What are these kids really doing to back up their claimed values? Maybe participating in some afterschool recycle drive (probably more to have something for their college application or to hang out with friends than to save the earth). The rest of the time they beg daddy for an SUV to be cool, throw their styrofoam cups on the sidewalk, and use countless watts of electricity supporting all their high-tech hobbies. It is a real shame that they don't teach kids more real-world skills and perceptions (like, yes, you WILL have to get a job to survive). Maybe if that was the case, you'd find less people needing government assistance, and more funds could be devoted towards these touchy-feely goals.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:23 / 27.04.03
This probably relates as much to Ganesh's thread as this one, but...

Seriously, though, these kids are saying things that adults in power over their lives have taught them. - Capitalist Piglet

There are those who would agree with this point but with entirely different conclusions. Some would argue that kids are taught that capitalism is the only viable system. And that the only way to get those "touchy feely goals", like preventing enviromental disaster, is to work harder. Actually, these people would argue that most issues aren't talked about in order to preserve the status quo. For instance, this statement

like, yes, you WILL have to get a job to survive

is really ethics disguised as pragmatism. In countries (like the US and UK) where unemployment is part of economic policy and the wealth exists to feed everyone many times over, it can be little else.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
08:51 / 28.04.03
like, yes, you WILL have to get a job to survive

Not if I'm rich, I won't.
 
 
Leap
10:06 / 28.04.03
Lurid -

ethics disguised as pragmatism. In countries (like the US and UK) where unemployment is part of economic policy and the wealth exists to feed everyone many times over, it can be little else.

Actually pragmatism is not a 'disguise' here but a fact. If you teach people that they can slack and be supported without contributing anything TO that support you will encourage folks into tax funded unemployment.............and what happens if a quarter of the population take it up?!!

You need to discourage unemployment for practical reasons (in a country that has benefit support at least) as well as ethical ones (to do otherwise would be to say it is ok for 'some of those who could work but who choose not to' to live indefinately by the effort of those who do work!! When you live by the effort of others (when you are perfectly capable of working yourself) you are the master of a slave).
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:22 / 28.04.03
If you teach people that they can slack and be supported without contributing anything TO that support you will encourage folks into tax funded unemployment.............

It doesn't seem that clear cut to me. Lots of people prefer to work than not. But you rather ignore my point that unemployment is a planned feature of most western economies. Attempts to provide full employment are seen as hopelessly idealistic.

Teaching people that they have to work to survive, when you know that not everyone will be able to find work is as much about demonising the unemployed and breeding fear in the workforce - to enable compliant, union free, flexible labour markets - as anything else.

When you live by the effort of others (when you are perfectly capable of working yourself) you are the master of a slave

Do you tell your children that every night before they go to bed?
 
 
Leap
10:35 / 28.04.03
Lurid -

Teaching people that they have to work to survive, when you know that not everyone will be able to find work is as much about demonising the unemployed and breeding fear in the workforce - to enable compliant, union free, flexible labour markets - as anything else.

I disagree. By teaching people that they have to "work to survive" you are teaching a rule that applies to the vast majority of them. It is not 'perfect' (what is?!) but it is better than teaching everyone that they do NOT have to work in order to survive.

When you live by the effort of others (when you are perfectly capable of working yourself) you are the master of a slave [Leap]

Do you tell your children that every night before they go to bed?

No, I teach them it (pretty much I hope) for every waking minute of the day! Through my actions more than my words, by refusing to my utmost to be neither a master nor a slave. It is ok to occasionally rely on people, or to start out such but gradually learn not to do so (as children start out as "masters" and parents as "slaves to them", but part of the role of a parent is to teach the child to be neither master nor slave themselves!) but to make a habit of it when such is not necessary (to create the master/slave relationship rather than a simple short-term need for help) is a foul thing to do.
 
 
cusm
17:01 / 28.04.03
sounds to me they were regurgitating some hogwash they've been browbeaten with by MTV "news", the Captain Planet cartoon, and teachers who probably couldn't hack it actually doing what they are teaching...

Sounds like some good hogwash to swallow, all the same. Maybe some of them will one day figure out how to apply it to their lives, and start working towards it as a goal. Not while they're in grade school perhaps, but if they grow up to buy a hybred eletric car that gets 200 miles to the gallon instead of an SUV, then their years of Playstation use are forgiven.

As for unemployment and the welfare scare, those pushing the fear that the breeding unemployed will sap the country dry forget that life on a subsistance level income is anything but glamorous. There is plenty of incentive to make better of yourself and play the game. The key is having the social opportunity to do so in the first place.

But of course, this does beg the question of if playing the game is cause for a better life. Sure, we're taught that it is, but I wonder sometimes. Am I happier now, with a family, minivan, house, a debt that will follow me to my grave, and a full time job that eats most of my waking hours to keep it all? Or was life better when I was working 15 hours a week and selling weed to friends to make the rent? I certainly had a lot more freedom, and I certainly enjoyed the abundant time I had to read, play, and socalize. I've never cared for success, personal happiness has always been more important to me than money. Though life now is more secure, less likely that I'll starve or freeze, and that there will be people to take care of me when I'm old and nasty to be around. It does look like a trade between freedom and security. But I think a case can be made here that the most enjoyable lifestyle can be found both at the top and bottom of the food chain, due to the lack of need for a common thing: work.
 
 
Ganesh
17:02 / 28.04.03
Well, what with all this master/slave talk, they should develop a healthy interest in SM...
 
 
Leap
17:29 / 28.04.03
Cusm -

I think a case can be made here that the most enjoyable lifestyle can be found both at the top and bottom of the food chain, due to the lack of need for a common thing: work.

Those who are rich enough not to work have usually got such snobbish standards that they do not really have a truly meaningful social life - they are too busy engaged in on-up-man-ship. I would hazard a guess that the poor (note: not pverty stricken) who do not need to work much are happier than the rich who do not need to work much or at all........whilst those of us in the middle who need to work quite a bit often miss the happier life before we had to work a lot (I know I do - but hey, my ideal life would be as an organic greengrocer in a nice village somewhere.........instead of working in an office full of robots [well, most of them are eh quantum? ].
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
17:34 / 28.04.03
That is fine if you want to be poor and sell weed for rent money so you have more time for your friends and books. Just don't make me pay for it.
 
 
pomegranate
17:56 / 28.04.03
i don't know if people "wise up" as they get older as capitalist piglet is saying. i feel like they just get tired, you know? it's easier not to care, not to feel guilty, responsible, etc.
plus apathy is sooooo much cooler, as is condescending people who aren't shruggers.
 
 
cusm
18:09 / 28.04.03
Aah, so its the welfare that you don't like, eh? Robbing the rich to feed the poor, keep your hands off my SUV gas money! Just let 'em all starve, they can't be proper humans if they can't hold a job, and its only *those people* that benefit from *my* work anyway, isn't it?

Honestly, I'd like to think we're a bit further above the animal level of existance than that. Otherwise, what is the point of progress if we're still no better as a whole? Its bigger, shinyer, and faster, but what good is it if it still doesn't care about more than itself? We're still just preditors and scavangers in a more complicated jungle.

The capitalist system may be good for much, but its not a guarantee that everyone will be able to always find work. Its not a guarantee that everyone will still be fed. So you have to pair it with at least a minimal safety net to provide a complete solution.

Your fears of a growing welfare base are unfounded. Few will remain on it for longer than they have to, as even selling weed for rent money is a higher standard of living than government dependence. If the rate of unemplyment is rising, its due to more than human lazyness. Its capitalism stumbling, as it often does, needing a bit of a hand until it can recover itself again.
 
 
Leap
18:15 / 28.04.03
Let's play "spot the difference"?


Slave: "I work and my master gains from it"

Master: "The slave works, I do not (by my own choice), and I gain from his work without having to raise a finger"





Tax payer: "I work and the benefit recipients gain from it"

Dole scrounger: "The tax payer works, I do not (by my own choice), and I gain from his work"

Note: I do not class all those who claim welfare as scroungers, only those who do so in preference to working (yes there are some, regardless of what many lefties would have us believe!).
 
 
Ganesh
18:17 / 28.04.03
Leap, could you link to your evidence regarding the respective degrees of happiness in the various social classes? Thanks!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:25 / 28.04.03
Leap - that's only one view of slavery; not all conceptions on slavery are based on work. I refer you to my old thread on 'Liberties and Liberty' in this forum for some others. I think this idea of 'slavery' should be examined before we go making wild claims about what constitutes slavery and bondage.

Praying mantis: who or what are 'shruggers'? Who's condescending to whom? Just seeking clarification...
 
 
Leap
18:25 / 28.04.03
Ganesh -

I was going on personal experience (I have friends from across the "social spectrum").
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:33 / 28.04.03
Its also interesting that, for leap, a slave may have a good deal of wealth, oppurtunity, holidays in the sun. Whereas that slave's master may have a subsistence existence. Doubtless I only find it counter intuitive because I am not rational enough.
 
 
Ganesh
18:33 / 28.04.03
Friends, eh? I see...
 
 
Leap
18:42 / 28.04.03
Lurid -

Its also interesting that, for leap, a slave may have a good deal of wealth, oppurtunity, holidays in the sun. Whereas that slave's master may have a subsistence existence. Doubtless I only find it counter intuitive because I am not rational enough.

The slave is still being sucked on by a parasite, and many of the doley scroungers I have met are usually happy to live at a fairly low level (note: like I said, I do NOT count all welfare recipients in this category).

Why is there a preponderance upon here of folks who make the majority of their counter arguments by twisting what has been previously posted? Are they so sad and lacking in any real life that they have to make up issues that affront them?
 
 
cusm
18:49 / 28.04.03
The slave is still being sucked on by a parasite

Naturally, it wouldn't do to actually acknowlege them as human.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:55 / 28.04.03
Leap, I don't think Lurid was twisting what you said, just making a point that he finds it counter-intuitive to think of a slave as being wealthy and a master as being impoverished.

I think we should probably shunt discussion of slavery into another thread and see if we can salvage this one for discussion of capitalism...
 
 
alas
19:53 / 28.04.03
Let's play "spot the difference"?

Slave: "I work and my master gains from it"

Master: "The slave works, I do not (by my own choice), and I gain from his work without having to raise a finger"
----
Tax payer: "I work and the benefit recipients gain from it"

Dole scrounger: "The tax payer works, I do not (by my own choice), and I gain from his work""


Ok:
Worker: "I work and the capitalist gains from it.

Capitalist: "The worker works; I do not (by my own choice), and I gain from his (or her--now that we've got equal opportunity!--hell I'll even throw in 'hir'--the more the merrier!) work."

I wrote a longish response to capitalist piglet's comments about whether the U.S. media leans left/right in the "baseball protest" section in Switchboard which begins to detail my problems with late capitalism, which is really a form of fascism as it is currently practiced.

However anyone associate with neo-liberal capitalism should first suspect that something's wrong with the game if virtually all the major proponents of it are white and male. I believe that's because there's a naive and simplistic understanding of the human individual, and a misreading of several foundational thinkers, including Adam Smith.

Will post more later,
alas.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
20:02 / 28.04.03
I hate most government funded social programs. Not because the idea behind them is bad, but because they are ALL so poorly managed, and abuse goes unchecked. And since there is so much red tape and runaround and information denial, it is very difficult for the public to see just how much of our tax dollars are being wasted. I think many people, myself included, would be much more apt to support these programs if they were better managed. If there were as many watch-dogs over government spending as there were lobbyists for more spending, we might not have as much of a problem.
 
 
Leap
20:31 / 28.04.03
Capitalist Piglet -

I hate most government funded social programs. Not because the idea behind them is bad, but because they are ALL so poorly managed, and abuse goes unchecked.

Personally I dislike "government funded social programs" because of the arrogant presumption that they are any better placed to spend the money I earn than I am!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:30 / 28.04.03
A word of Moderator Hatted warning - if this thread is sidetracked into endless personal bitchery then there will be a) an orgy of delete requests and b) a move to the Conversation. I am getting bored of every thread devolving into "is Leap maladjusted?". We already know that Leap believes that he is better placed than many to determine where his hard-earned money goes. We all have our opinions on this belief. Tackle the balls, not the man.

On a less hatted note - CP - I'm afraid I understand little of the US welfare system. In the UK, those currently receiving benefits (that is, those without work who can demonstrate that they are unable to afford the care being offered privately, and/or those who do not have health insurance) are entitled to a level of care that, although not at the same level as private patients, nonetheless exists.

Now, one criticsm levelled at the capitalist system as it is practised in the US is that it means that those desperately in need of healthcare without the means to pay for it are denied. But others point out that nobody is denied emergency healthcare. One question is whether, from your perspective, either of these statements is valid. The next is whether money is saved or lost by restricting health care for the uninsured to emergency situations, as opposed to regular check-ups, and whether it balances out the money lost on those cases. I confess ignorance. Could any US citizens help me out on this bit of the US system?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:43 / 28.04.03
Why is there a preponderance upon here of folks who make the majority of their counter arguments by twisting what has been previously posted?

With ever decreasing respect, I think it is a bit rich to present hyperbole and unsupported sweeping generalisations and then complain when you are pulled up on them.

Alas: Excellent post on the other thread, and might be valuable to have a version on this thread. Just a thought.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
23:58 / 28.04.03
Leap, ditto to that, too, especially in regards to Social Security, the biggest slap in the face. I'm too stupid to invest my own money, apparently.

Any Haus, yes, as far as I know, emergency healthcare is not denied anyone. Even if you pay only $1 every month to pay for any costs you acquire through emergency healthcare, you will never be prosecuted or put into collections. As for preventative healthcare, I know many doctors who work out payment plans for those who can't afford it, or even offer free check-ups and the like. In our county, like many other counties, there is a department of health that can provide free birth control and physicals for those who need it. You have to wait in line forever, but it's there. On top of that you have countless charities and organizations that help people in the community get the healthcare they need. I don't know exactly what the cost is to the taxpayer, though, or what difference in cost there would be if the monies were focused on preventative care over emergency care. I would be interested if someone found some statistics.
 
 
Leap
08:09 / 29.04.03
Capitalist Piglet -

Leap, ditto to that, too, especially in regards to Social Security, the biggest slap in the face. I'm too stupid to invest my own money, apparently.

This is one of the biggies that I cannot figure out as far as the left is concerned. They claim that we humans somehow do not have the ability to run the large part of our lives ourselves, in person, but that we instead need to delegate such tasks to a "big brother" director/manager/overseer system. I can understand the need for a degree of management in a complex social environment such as a city (the transport system alone would dissolve into chaos if kept at the level it is but had no management system and cities are a typically alienating place where most of the people you see are strangers), yet the left wing (in this explicit city-centredness, which is simply an offshoot of their inherent powerbase (industry based, rather than landed, wealth)) apply that rule as a commonality to all human life (despite the fact that not all of us live in cities (nor wish to)). It also fails to take into account the environmental and social impact of the industrial, city-based, lifestyle (positing it as the “ideal” when it is clearly far from it – hence the massive desire in this country at least to “get out of the rat race” and head for the countryside).

The left are either saying cities are good (regardless of the alienation, ill-health, environmental hell, increased crime, etc. that they bring!) or they are simply trying to paper over the cracks. At best, denial, at worst, well, for the at worst option words fail me!

The right recognises the human values that the left fails to notice (those typically found more in the countryside than the city – personal freedom, personal relationships, personal responsibility) but has the problem of connecting its wealth increasingly with industry rather than land/agriculture (leading to a countryside attitude in a city; which, as the left point out, do not really cut it in a metropolitan environment).

We need to decide whether we will one, move to cities and live by the left-wing attitudes needed in such (essentially cities create greater wealth but at the cost of the person, the human as well as having horrendous environmental impacts), or two, lower our populations and move back towards countryside living and the more right-wing attitudes suited to there (accepting a lower level of wealth but a higher level of the personal in life (personal responsibility / relationships, private ownership, along with far less damaging environmental impacts)).
 
 
illmatic
09:23 / 29.04.03
I think that a lot of the problems with your argument (and why you’ve got so much flak here) is that people are arguing from a (largely urban) present day perspective as opposed to (your) idealised agrarian future. If you accept that transport in a city requires a degree of management at present, why can you not accept the same thing re. welfare provision? All your arguments re. individual charity and so on seem to rest on this posited ideal future – that’s all very well, but what about now, the present day? Is what we have, a good system or not – does it alleviate unnecessary suffering and poverty? I would argue that it does so, using both our own history and comparison with the developing world as examples. I’d like to see your not inconsiderable tenacity directed towards the solution of real world, current day problems, rather than dreaming up this imaginary utopia.

I also think your using a rather bizarre and monolithic definition of the left but that’s another point.
 
 
Leap
12:02 / 29.04.03
Illmatic –

All your arguments re. individual charity and so on seem to rest on this posited ideal future – that’s all very well, but what about now, the present day?

They actually rest on the vast majority of human history (to be “country dwellers” not “town dwellers” and the inherited / evolved nature we have, as well as what is necessary for the future (my professional field is Transport, and believe me, what I have seen from where I am working is that we either embrace a dramatic degree of re-agrarianisation or we choose from either brave new world order or dark future chaos! – note: for the sceptics, details can be supplied later if so interested but I DO indeed have sound evidence to back this up (it is just that currently I am unwilling to publish on open format).
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
12:42 / 29.04.03
Leap: suburbs. That is how Americans are having their cake and eating it too.

Ill, fair enough. Yes, most of my proposed ideas are of a futuristic nature. I think the system we have works OK. I think one major proble with centralizing government powers, though, is that the US is too big geographically to make blanket legislation and programs. The needs, wants, beliefs, and values of someone in Oregon may not be the same as someone in Georgia. That's OK, but in order to effectively meet those needs, government should be tailored more locally. It used to be that way, but as time has gone on, more and more of what used to be state jurisdiction has become federal jurisdiction. I think our system is working, for the most part, but it is extremely flawed, and improvements can always be done.

And I feel that many on the left make a rather bizarre and monolithic definition of the right. But, if you care to enlighten me on what the Left is REALLY like, I'd be happy to listen, just as I'd be happy to tell people here what the Right is REALLY like.
 
 
Adamant
16:03 / 29.04.03
Considering the state of the market, I'm rather glad we don't have a country full of baboons throwing their money in the wastebasket only to whine about it later. Also, think about the working class who doesn't have the time nor resources to research the market. Sure, let's just dump his money in a blue chip. It would no longer be social security, it would be social gambling.

As for welfare, you can't dump a vital system simply because it has flaws, that won't help anyone. The government would just re-allocate the money to other programs. Since Bush has run us into debt, don't expect to get money back by cutting out programs. And no, you can't just choose what you want to your tax dollars to go to. We don't want a country full of poor people who do nothing but spend their time at government sponsored strip joints and beauty salons.

Finally, the reason we don't have real healthcare in this country is because we have health insurance. The big "I" has such a powerful lobby that there's no chance of it changing.
 
  

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