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Capitalismo

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:08 / 29.04.03
We've gone rather far afield, I think.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
16:34 / 29.04.03
Actually, though the stock market is volitile in the short term, it has the highest rate of return in the long term over any other investment. Stocks aren't the only investment, anyway. But I won't harp on that. If people want to stay in the Social Security system and earn only 2% on their investment (a rate lower than the average rate of inflation, so it's essentially a loss), then let them. But they should allow people to opt out if they want. I would gladly lose the money I have put in so far if I didn't have to pay in ever again. I think a lot of others would do the same.

As for welfare, I don't propose we dump the system entirely overnight. Something that huge with that many people dependent on it, you have to phase it out slowly. I applaud the welfare reform that has already taken place. Not much else has been done, though, and I think as the economy begins to turn around, we should re-examine some of the continued flaws and find more ways to reduce the welfare rolls.

Oh, and I'd rather my tax dollars go to a strip club than to a grant study to figure out why prisoners want to break out of prison.
 
 
cusm
16:59 / 29.04.03
I think perceptions of "left" and "right" are often quite varying from the parties that claim to represent these factions. A good generalization is that left=socalist while right=capitalist. That's a good place to start. I like the divisions on the Political Compass test, which further add Authoritarian and Libertarian to this as a top and bottom, which I think is helpful. I test slightly left of center and deeply libertarian, for the curious. Using direct terms such as these would be better than general left and right divisions, especially in discussions of current US party divisions, which bear only marginal resemblence to their expected policies.

To attempt to steer back on topic, a common argument by those-who-call-their-opponents-leftist (which is more accurate than calling them "right", isn't it?) is that were social welfare programs eliminated completely, they would be replaced by charity of those who succeed, allowing one to voulentarily support the social programs one prefers to spend their hard earned money on. An interesting idea, but one I think is hopelessly idealistic and contrarty to human nature on some fundamental levels. Capitalism is a system fueled by self interest, so to expect such a system to produce effective charity is not reasonable. So some amount of governing body is necessary to fill that gap. How much of that being local and how much national is ever a tricky balance to determine for the best results.


And now, for something strikingly back on topic again. A thesis: Capitalism is a system based upon a form of slavery, indentured servitude. In indentured servitude, one is given something, such as a loan, training in a craft, or a service such a transport to a new land. In return, one works for the benefactor for a period of time to pay off this debt. Once repaid, the servent is released.

This system is the core of capitalist business. One seeking to go into business takes out a loan from investors to gain the necessary capital to start up. This loan acrues intreset over time. If the venture is successful, the loan is eventually repaid. However in practice, it is ordinarily floated on for ever increasing times. One manner being the selling of corporate stock to transfer the debt to individual share owners, who then have say in how their servent corporation operates to some extent. Another example is deficit spendingin government, most often backed by those of the "right" affiliated party. It is only appropriate that the politics of capitalism is the politics of debt.

On the personal level, individuals are easily trapped by their debt in this society to where one works entirely to pay off their debt rather then to build their own fortune. One finances houses, cars, and makes use of credit cards to purchase the bling-bling they desire now, rather than saving up for it later, and thus becomes a slave to their debtors to a greater and greater extent as interest builds. Thus, while one might have been able to work substantially less to maintain what they have were it purchased outright, one instead must work greater hours to repay this debt with no hope for escape for many years to come. Thus does the American Dream create slaves, working to perpetuate the capitalist system which ever promised them a better life.

Is it worth it?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:18 / 29.04.03
I can't stand the use of "right" and "left" as political designators, or the idea that liberalism is the opposite of conservatism, but I think that's such a completely different topic that it needs its own thread. And, cusm, unless I misunderstand its design, that questionairre is extremely biased.
 
 
illmatic
17:33 / 29.04.03
CP: Sorry, I should have made that clear. My comments were addresssed to Leap and perhaps a bit threadrotty. I was trying to point out why his comments have caused such a critical reaction in "The Breeding Exam" thread and elsewhere. To wit - the conditions and behaviour he postulates exist in a idealised situation only, and if the Leapster recognises the need for some management to deliver transport services in a modern industrial society, then why not the same for Welfare provision? I could go on, but seeing as on not on the Net a lot at present, and I don't want to turn this (very interesting) thread into "The Breeding Exam Wars" Part 2, I'll keep schtum for now.

Please return to your scheduled programme.
 
 
cusm
17:36 / 29.04.03
Qal yin, yes the questionaire is extremely biased. That's why I'm extoling the compass part as useful more than the test. The test is amusing, but its structured to recruit you to the libertarian party more than anything else.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
17:56 / 29.04.03
cusm, agreed. Though I have seen other tests with more in-depth questions, with a simialar compass-style plotting.

I will agree that one can become a slave in capitalism. But it's a CHOICE. Yes, if you get yourself into debt because you are too weak to say no to every desire that pops into your head, you will become a slave to that debt. But, did anyone force you to do that? I say no. I'm sure you'll have examples for me as to how people are FORCED into being a slave to debt.

And you are right, charity will increase, but probably not by much, if the people were given back the money they would have spent on social programs (through taxes). If we got rid of them right away, at least. I just worry that we end up creating this perpetual cycle of government dependancy, both in the business sector and among the public. As shitty as it sounds, you have to let a little bit of natural selection take place.
 
 
Adamant
18:15 / 29.04.03
Would you rather your money to go a strip club or a grant about prisoners...

That's a straw man. The government has a pool of money it uses to fund all sorts of grants, and they aren't picky enough about who that money goes to. It's not a fair comparison since what the money is used for changes every year.

What you should be asking is if you'd rather see government funded education or government funded strip clubs. Because that's what we are really talking about.

The stock market may have a gain in the long term. Depends on what you mean by long term. We assume that the volume will continue to rise despite peaks and valleys, but it's really not a safe assumption. Opting out sounds good to me. What sounds better is money going into long term bonds.

---------------topic------------------

Capitalism is really a caste system. There are those who are the indentured servants (and no, not because they couldn't suppress their appetites), there are those who are the masters (usually passed down from generation to generation), and those look down on the former, and look up to the latter.

The capitalist economy is a zero sum game. Those who hardly have any money, are given it, a little at a time, so that more can be extracted from them to keep them at that state. Those who are at the top can do this investing, while those in the middle handle the affairs of the uppers concerning the lowers (they don't want their hands dirty, after all).
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
18:35 / 29.04.03
Capitalism is NOT a zero sum game. What say you about the concept of economic growth? Do you think it is something made up?
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:46 / 29.04.03
Interestingly, yes, to a large extent. Certainly perceptions of economic growth tend to be inflated in the media and what growth takes place is concentrated in the hands of a tiny proportion of the population. And when taken globally, the term "zero sum game" seems apt. Perhaps I'll try to dig up some figures...
 
 
cusm
21:05 / 29.04.03
I just worry that we end up creating this perpetual cycle of government dependancy, both in the business sector and among the public. As shitty as it sounds, you have to let a little bit of natural selection take place.

I do agree with you there. I think the amount of government aid should be minimal to encourage inititave, but non-zero and enough to cover basic survival. You have to have a baseline standard of living, but it doesn't need to be glamourous.

As for debt, that's again a tricky one. One can get by without credit, but its very hard. The game is stacked against you for it. In purchasing homes for example, its usually a better deal to mortgage than to rent, as your monthly payments are lower and you'll eventually actually own the place. Education is another one that traps you, as college is way too expensive to handle without loans, even with scholorships and government assistance. And you need the education to have a hope of raising your class, so its the apprenticeship system all over again. The one thing you can avoid with Will is the credit cards, though its a tough fight. They get you in college before you know how to manage you money, offering free gifts for signing up, and its just so easy to use... And then its 10 years later and you're still paying off those drinking binges back from college, and they've got you. They're a vile lot, the cards. And we're taught by society to do it that way, because that's just how the system is set up to work. Sure, you can get around it, but will you learn how to before you're already trapped by it? Odds are against you.
 
 
Leap
10:26 / 30.04.03
The problem is that Capitalism and Free Market have become synonymous, when Capitalism, strictly speaking, is about the “lords and serfs” relationship (where the worker works and the owner reaps benefits based on his ownership rather than his labour) whilst the free market is about people taking charge of their own lives (so long as it carries a “need not greed” rule within it – as greed heads back towards “lords and serfs”, whilst “need” allows for difference in levels of wealth without recourse to power-elites).

Socialism and communism are responses to capitalism that do not learn from its mistakes. In seeking to combat the disenfranchisement brought about by capitalism they may succeed in redistributing some of the results of work, but remain essentially patronising by not redistributing the majority of the direct control of such. Essentially socialism and communism are like an over-protective parent responding to a foolish child; by being over protective they never allow the child to grow up (and so are guilty of fluffy fascism).

Capitalism is just one form of Free Market – it is a market free from any restrictions what so ever (including moral and common sense ones)!

Thus by all means have some richer than others, but to allow that to degenerate into a power-elite / disenfranchised dichotomy situation (where one class is essentially largely subservient to another class) is to essentially plough the field for socialism.

What is needed is a Free Market as delineated above (“need not greed”), that would not (in theory!!!!) turn into a “lords and serfs” situation and would thus avoid slipping into communism. Such a society would still allow variety of wealth, as well as a process of improvement, but these would not get out of hand and create power-elites (for in getting out of hand it would sow the seeds of its own destruction).

The ‘Free’ in Free Market, does not mean ‘free from common sense’, it means free from control by an elite – and a market that operates contrary to the above “need not greed” approach will always be ultimately self contradictory / destructive through the creation of such an elite
 
 
Cherry Bomb
10:56 / 30.04.03
Just thought I'd jump in and provide a little information on where money to charities comes from: I've worked for quite a few charities in the U.S., usually assisting in grant proposal-writing. ANYWAY, most charities DO get some money from the Feds and also from the State. It depends on what the charity does usually how much money they get. For example, I worked at a charity in Chicago that did a lot of work for young disadvantaged children and their families. They got a lot of money from the State (fed and local). I also worked at a charity that was kind of a specialist charity (money for research into congenital heart disease). They didn't get much money from the state at all.

Charities also get money from OTHER charities, i.e. big charities like the United Way or the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation donate a lot of money to smaller charities. And also again from the government, in the form of grants. Usually you have to apply for the funds via a grant proposal of some sort.

Finally charities of course get money through individual and corporate donations, funds from fundraisers and the like.

All charities in the U.S. have to go through a rigorous reporting system to demonstrate they're not using the money for something other than what the charity is intended. That doesn't mean you can't engage in fraud but it does make it harder.

Anyway, that's all the time I have to add to this discussion for now. Hope it helps!
 
 
grant
14:53 / 30.04.03
What is needed is a Free Market as delineated above (“need not greed”, that would not (in theory!!!!) turn into a “lords and serfs” situation and would thus avoid slipping into communism. Such a society would still allow variety of wealth, as well as a process of improvement, but these would not get out of hand and create power-elites (for in getting out of hand it would sow the seeds of its own destruction).




How might this overlay with the current situation in Sweden?

Cradle to grave coverage - great place to be a family giving birth... but also a free market haven, with heavy hitters like Ericsson, Securitas, Ikea and Volvo making plenty of profits.

And an unemployment rate that's around one percent lower than America's.



-------

Here, also, is something y'all might find interesting: a Forbes article on the Gini Index.

What's the Gini Index?

Here's the description from the article:
A single number, called the Gini index--after economist Corrado Gini--sums up the degree of economic equality in a society. You draw a curve plotting the cumulative share of wealth (or income), y%, owned by the poorest x% of the citizens. If everyone has exactly the same money, the two numbers are always equal--the bottom 20%, for example, would have 20% of the pie--and the curve would be a straight line tipping up at a neat 45-degree angle. If, at the other extreme, Bill Gates owned every last dollar and the rest of us were broke, the line would go flat until the very last point, where it would lurch up at a vertical angle.

All societies fall between these extremes. The Gini number is defined in such a way that it would equal 0 for the imaginary egalitarian society and 1 for the Bill-Gates-has-it-all society. Most developing countries have a Gini of 0.45 or higher. Nominally socialist China comes in at 0.40, alongside the U.S. (see table, below). Most of western Europe clusters around 0.30. We don't have a Gini handy for feudal England, but it would probably be at the high end of the scale.


It also has a nice table comparing Gini Index with GDP and number-of-billionaires for a bunch of countries.

One of the points the article makes is that a high Gini number (the higher, the more inequitable) leads to social unrest... but can be counteracted by [a perception of] social mobility. In other words, it's OK to have haves and have-nots, as long as a few of the have-nots can become haves [or think they can, anyway].
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
15:49 / 30.04.03
OK, I'm going to branch off here a bit. How does society determine who gets to be a have and who gets to be a have not, under an ideal situation? I mean, not EVEYRONE deserves to have everything they want, right? Could you guys think of a fairer way to distrubute income based on how much one contributes to society?
 
 
cusm
16:24 / 30.04.03
Well, any sort of redistribution of income is again applying the socalist band-aid. Perhaps a good start would be better laws for corporations. A corporation acts in some ways like a mini fudalist state, with the serfs/workers earning minimally compared to the executives/aristrocrats. So, perhaps by tackling the distribution of wealth within the corporate structure, you can improve the macrocosm by improving the microcosm. By that, we have minimum wage laws, but what about maximum wage percentage? If individual wage were capped as compared to the total net profit of the company before wages, the overall pay scale of workers would increase, lessening the class divide by the sometimes excessive extremes seen. That might be one possibly useful approach that I don't believe has been attempted yet.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
17:02 / 30.04.03
The only sound compromise I see is to provide huge incentives to companies for doing the "right thing". Though I generally dislike social engineering through tax breaks, it's better to me than forced controls on wages. You have more freedom that way.
 
 
grant
18:45 / 30.04.03
? Could you guys think of a fairer way to distrubute income based on how much one contributes to society?

How about an eBay-style distribution system (freely accessible for anyone with a net hookup) based on barter? A constant bidding war for contracts, using either labor or goods as a medium of exchange, with a market consisting of... well, potentially, everyone in the world.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
19:09 / 30.04.03
OK. Good start. I remember an exercise we did in one of my economics classes. The professor challenged us to think of the best way to give a gift certificate to the person who wanted it the most. The closest we came, besides monetary bidding, was first-come-first-serve. It all comes down to who wants to sacrifice the most. Bartering doesn't work anymore, anyway, at least not in our complex world. The reason bartering gave way to money was because it was more efficient. If you have two cows and I have a bale of cotton and I need two cows but you don't need a bale of cotton, it's easier if I give you money (some commonly accepted form of payment) than to find some middle man who will barter between us. Maybe I am not understanding you, though. Could you explain further your ebay-style bartering/contracting system? BTW, anything internet based is even more discriminatory to the have-nots.
 
 
cusm
19:44 / 30.04.03
I think grant meant bartering in the sense of haggeling, or bidding, rather than direct trade of goods for goods. Increase in competetion by use of expanding the possibility for negotiation of price.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
20:02 / 30.04.03
Oh, well, OK. That sounds good to me. Anyone else have some ideas?
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
00:43 / 01.05.03
cp: "If you have two cows and I have a bale of cotton and I need two cows but you don't need a bale of cotton, it's easier if I give you money (some commonly accepted form of payment) than to find some middle man who will barter between us."

That was true in 5000 BC or whenever we invented currency, but on Ebay it'd take you one click and 30 seconds of CPU time to find your middle man. And you're searching every market on earth instead of just one.

cp: "BTW, anything internet based is even more discriminatory to the have-nots."

Libraries all over the world have free internet even today (or at least they do in Idaho and Zimbabwe, which seem like opposite ends of the earth to me.) Little internet booths could be as ubiquitous as payphones, cheap and easy, if all they had to offer was trading and voting (wouldn't it be nice to get rid of that electoral college?)

cp: "Anyone else have some ideas?"

I always get hung up on the amount of labor. Why does the doctor get paid a zillion dollars for one hour of work and the ditchdigger gets miminum wage? One got a lot more sweaty. Well, it's because the doctor had to go to school for 20 years to be a doctor, and the ditchdigger doesn't need to be a grade school graduate. But I'm an Engineer with a BS and all that...and I would have done it just because I think Engineering is fun. If you only became a doctor for the money and you actually hate it, then I bet you're a crappy doctor. I know noone is going to buy this, but I'd be totally happy as an Engineer who earned minimum wage.

I know when you pay all doctors the same you end up with crappy doctors, supposedly, because there's no incentive to perform. But I think it'd be totally fair if all pay was based on effort and performance, rather than skill. I knew I felt crappy in school when some other kid worked ten times harder than me for a lower grade.

So anyway...when rewarding the people who "contribute the most" - my first step would be to define that phrase.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
01:09 / 01.05.03
Quote: Why does the doctor get paid a zillion dollars for one hour of work and the ditchdigger gets miminum wage?

You said it was because of his education. Well, partly. It's also because there is a higher demand for living healthy than there is for working ditches. As a society, we have determined that the services a doctor provides is more valuable, and therefore must be paid accordingly to ensure that that service will be there. Ditchdiggers are a dime a dozen, too. Also, working "hard" is not the end of it. What about working "smart"? It takes me no time at all to crunch some numbers and create a report at work. It might take the next guy all day and a lot of headache to do the same thing. He worked harder. Does that mean he gets more money? The market for labor works just like any other market. You have supply (people supplying their labor) and demand (people demanding others' labor). Plus some other stuff.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
02:31 / 01.05.03
on supply and demand: I meant (and, now that I checked, I said) you should be rated on your effort "and performance". getting the job done quicker is better performance.

but, now that I think about it, I'd be okay with him (the slow guy) getting paid more too. it's not his fault he's dumb. why do I get more money for being "smart"? I already have one advantage in life so you should give me MORE benefits?

capitalism seems to focus less on "what can I get for my work?" and more on "how can I make sure no one else gets anything near as good as me unless they work really hard too?" who cares what some other guy makes? are you happy? nifty.

like that Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where calvin shovels the sidewalk and then fills it back in after him, because "no one else should benefit from my hard work!".

As for the doctor being in demand - I realize that's how capitalism works, but I was asking in more of a theoretical "what solutions can we come up with for making sure people get rewarded for what they put into the society" way. as in maybe everything SHOULDN'T be based on supply and demand. do they have to be? (maybe they do, I dunno.)

the doctor gets paid more because I desperately need hir help? that sounds like a monopoly to me - I can charge what I want because you don't have a choice. you can live without a ditch digger but you can't live without a doctor, therefore the doctors get to set hir prices higher. I guess there's competition with other doctors but that's not always an option, and it still seems that doctors *in general* are going to set their prices higher than ditch diggers because *they can*. and that sounds monopolistic. even though it kind of has nothing to do with monopolies. uhm.
 
 
Ganesh
06:38 / 01.05.03
The doctor also carries a great deal more personal responsibility than the ditch-digger, while remaining accountable for his actions.

A "zillion", though? I wish...
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
13:30 / 01.05.03
Quote: as in maybe everything SHOULDN'T be based on supply and demand. do they have to be?

Yes. Supply and demand are economic laws. It's pretty much universally agreed upon by all economists. You can adjust things by regulations, but the nature of economic transactions will always follow the rules of supply and demand. Doctors aren't monopolies. They can have monopolistic qualities if there is little competition (ie, you are the only brain surgeon in the area), but it's not a total monopoly since someone can go to medical and brain surgery school and then undercut the original surgeon. Collusive price setting is illegal, in case you wanted to come back with that argument.

Quote: it's not his fault he's dumb

Maybe it is. What if he goofed off in school, or has a nasty drug habit? The more what-ifs you have, the more difficult it is going to be to determine what people really deserve to be paid.

Quote: capitalism seems to focus less on "what can I get for my work?" and more on "how can I make sure no one else gets anything near as good as me unless they work really hard too?" who cares what some other guy makes? are you happy? nifty.

Not neccessarily. People are competitive by nature. Some fall in the category of raising themselves up to be the big winner, some fall in the category of beating everyone else down in order to be the big winner. Honestly, it is actually less work to raise yourself up than it is to sabatoge other people's efforts. Though sabatoge might be more fun. I think it IS important to care about what the other guy makes, because if you are doing the same job and you are getting paid less, it will give you the incentive to either do better, or to demand equal pay.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:42 / 01.05.03
Supply and demand are economic laws. It's pretty much universally agreed upon by all economists. - Capitalist Piglet

Although I don't believe it is always clear how these laws manifest themselves, is it? There are industries where one can apply these laws quite well, but not always I think. OTTOMH, the use of temping is generally more expensive in the short term for a company, though I suppose it may gain in the long term. Also, supply and demand tends to ignore political factors.

Collusive price setting is illegal, in case you wanted to come back with that argument

Though, interestingly, I've heard it argued that it is clearly commonplace. (Perhaps collusive is open to some interpretation, however.) The argument used was one in game theory, where there is a famous strategy known as Tit-for-Tat. This involves starting by cooperation with an "opponent" until you get competition, then you just repeat their strategy.

Anyway, the argument goes that whenever you see a price war, that is good evidence for, not necessarily explicit, collusion. They are playing Tit-for-Tat, you see.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:19 / 02.05.03
Mod hat: If and when the mods go through, the meat of the previous exchanges has been moved here to minimise threadrot. Anyone still missing something who wants it back, OM me - I have backed up the text.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
12:59 / 02.05.03
To mod: I still want to keep a more general discussion here about capitalism, which may include some points from the Labor thread.

Lurid, I don't know how temping could be more expensive. The company usually doesn't have to pay benefits or anything to the temps, because the temps get it from the temp agency. At least that is my understanding. Also, all the processing it might require to hire someone on permanently would be avoided. I'm sure companies run these sort of cost-benefit analyses before they make the decision. Also, could you give me examples of political factors that supply and demand ignore?

I am sure collusion is commonplace. The burden of proof is on the state to show if businesses are engaging in anti-competitive practices (collusion, monopolizing, etc.), and it's often hard to prove. Collusive price setting is a controversial issue among economists. Some argue that if they agree to set the price above market equilibrium, there will still be an incentive for one of the businesses to undercut the other, because they could possbily gain more revenue. It depends on the elasticity of demand for their goods/services. Price wars are good, IMO, too, because the consumer usually wins.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:26 / 02.05.03
CP.

True, but the company employing the temp has to pay the temp agency, who can take as much as half the salary of said temp. Benefits to temps is a fairly recent addition in the UK, but you are right that I'm not certain about the specifics.

About politics, etc. Well, this is clearly true if we look at government spending, where political concerns override economic ones. In the UK, for instance, private finance initiatives look to be much worse on paper, but serve an ideological aim. Less contentiously, government spending has many concerns which are not to do with econmics and so disrupt that pattern. This is treu as much of right wing governments (who might increase defence spending, say) as of left wing governments. This seems pertinent, given the large budgets that governments have.

Another example is, for instance, Murdoch and News International. In the UK they ran the Sun and The Times newspapaers at a loss in order to squeeze the competition. They did this for some time, in fact. Microsoft also has a history of those kind of anti-competition practices.

Another good example is in trade union relations (of course, economics doesn't tend to recognise unions but still...). Companies often prefer to lose large amounts in revenue, rather than be seen to be giving in to trade union demads. I remember one Railtrack strike where the losses were of the order of ten times the amount requested by the union. Justifiable, perhaps, but politically based.

Many decisions about cost aren't simple, in fact. Different prices relate to differing qualities of a product and the choice then is not entirely about supply and demand.

I am sure collusion is commonplace. The burden of proof is on the state to show if businesses are engaging in anti-competitive practices (collusion, monopolizing, etc.), and it's often hard to prove.

Right. The game theory argument is that it is collusion, rather than competition, which one would often expect to be the default. Even if that collusion is tacit. Price wars may be "good". But they may be evidence that normal economic activity is far from competitive.

Some argue that if they agree to set the price above market equilibrium, there will still be an incentive for one of the businesses to undercut the other, because they could possbily gain more revenue

Yeah, but I don't believe in a "market equilibrium". The demonstration of such is essentially ideological, in my view, by means of quantitative economics which takes as axiomatic the principles of a free market, capitalist economy. You can dismiss this as leftie nonsense if you want, but I think there is a demonstrable inadequacy of quantative economics to work in practice. I suspect that it is largely a con game.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
14:19 / 02.05.03
I'm talking specifically about supply (the amount of a good or service an entity is willing to supply at every price level) and demand (the amount of a good or service an entity is willing to buy at every price level). You are getting into cost and revenue analysis with your government examples. I really wish that there were ways to draw stuff on this messageboard so I could draw out some graphs to explain what I am talking about.

How are price wars not competitive? To me they are the very definition of competition.

Quantitative economics time and time again support economic theory. If it didn't, the theories would be dismissed. Just because you don't "believe" in it, doesn't make it not true.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:32 / 02.05.03
You are getting into cost and revenue analysis with your government examples. I really wish that there were ways to draw stuff on this messageboard so I could draw out some graphs to explain what I am talking about.

I've seen the graphs and not found them convincing. They tend to rest on assumptions like perfect information, the motivations of every actor, etc. What about my newspaper examples.

How are price wars not competitive? To me they are the very definition of competition.

Because they are playing Tit-for-Tat. I've said this already.

Quantitative economics time and time again support economic theory. If it didn't, the theories would be dismissed. Just because you don't "believe" in it, doesn't make it not true.

They have some validity in limited problems. But, for example, economists are hopeless at predicting the direction that the stock market will take. There are lots of people - hell, even economists - who believe that economics is largely ideological. I don't believe in it for some very good reasons.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
17:23 / 02.05.03
Well, it's going to be hard for us to effectively debate about economics if you don't believe in any of the commonly held prinicipals of it.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:37 / 02.05.03
Not really. One can still talk about real examples in a qualitative sense. I mean, we have discussions about AI without buying into all the exaggerated claims of its proponents. I've had discussions about cosmology while remaining sceptical about the objective nature of any of the models.

More generally, one doesn't need agreement on ideology to have a debate. Scepticism about economics theory as currently taught is really quite widespread so it seems slightly odd to declare a debate impossible if that theory is not accepted.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
18:28 / 02.05.03
Is it really that you don't believe it, or you don't understand it? Because from what I have gathered from your posts, you don't even have that great of an understanding of the economic theory you claim to not believe in. Wouldn't it make sense to learn as much as you can about it before you dismiss it?
 
  

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