BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Capitalismo

 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
 
Lurid Archive
18:51 / 02.05.03
I understand some of it. Though you are right, I could understand more. Such is always the case. By contrast, you seem to mostly argue by authority. You seem very keen to tell me I don't understand why you are right, rather than telling me why you are right. Pointing to graphs and formulae isn't really going to convince me in the absence of empirical justifications.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
19:20 / 02.05.03
I haven't pointed to any graphs or formlae yet, but if I did, I would explain them and why I used them. I'm sorry if I come across snotty. I guess I get irritated when people have misconceptions about a field I have specialized in. You'd probably feel the same, I am sure, if I had misconceptions about a field you have specialized in. It would be easier to explain much of what I talk about if there was some forum for me to draw out graphs and move lines while explaining things and providing quantititative examples. But I don't know of any.
 
 
grant
20:23 / 02.05.03
(I think here's where someone points out that Lurid Archive is actually a mathematician by profession.)

Just to clarify my above suggestion, I was actually talking about real barter, although in a networked system, having money (or some cybernetic equivalent)would probably be necessary to speed things along. I just don't see a reason why I couldn't say, hey, I've got a movie camera for sale, and I'm looking for an accordion (or whatever) and have a direct exchange. Although again, money's good for evening up the balance. (A movie camera would definitely be more worth an accordion plus somebody mows my lawn for two weeks).
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
20:26 / 02.05.03
Grant, nobody is stopping you from doing that now.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
20:28 / 02.05.03
Also, math is a tool used by economists, but it doesn't mean one would automatically understand economics because they understood math.
 
 
grant
20:34 / 02.05.03
Oh, if you want graphs, plasticbag.org just plugged some free graph software for Macs.

I think you can also use this site to create graphs online. You'll have to save 'em as files and put 'em on an image hosting service, but still, it's something.

like so:
 
 
_pin
22:17 / 02.05.03
To come back to the point I made earlier about the collectivisation fo farms, and also Lurid's point about Tit-for-Tat price warring being tantamount to collusion: can you please show me that free markets don't ultimately create their own forms of "Soviet-style repression"? Sure, I can choose between supermarkets, but I can't not choose supermarkets.

One of the interesting points about the traditional right in England is that they're still espousing a doctrine of local power and determination and a community spirit created through capitlaism and I agree that that's a good thing. But they follow this up with open markets that crush local busineses, with large chains buying out their leases because they can and so forth. This is then justified because people go to these places because they have nowhere else to go. Is that community?

And your point about the consumers winning in price wars: but if prices are cut so low that staff benefits are curtailed, everyone has to be super-efficent on the shop floor and don't get bonuses and have their wages cut and free water machines taken away- are these people not consumers too? Their quality of life drops, but they get TVs to crash in front of when they get home a bit cheaper.

You seem to be making an artifical distinction between consumer and worker- are you?
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:27 / 04.05.03
Also, math is a tool used by economists, but it doesn't mean one would automatically understand economics because they understood math. - CP

Yes, a very good point. Especially for someone like me who is self taught and liable to talk shit some of the time.

I guess I just wanted to make the point, for people like _pin, that there is debate in and about economics. Let me quote from what most would agree is a fairly neutral source, Wikipedia on Neoclassical Economics.

Neoclassical economics is frequently criticised for having a normative bias. In this view, it does not focus on explaining actual economies, but instead on describing a "utopia" in which Pareto optimality obtains.

and

...economists often refer to what has evolved out of neoclassical economics as "mainstream economics"....

Neoclassical economics is also often seen as relying too heavily on complex mathematical models, such as those used in general equilibrium theory, without enough regard to whether these actually describe the real economy. Many see an attempt to model a system as complex as a modern economy by a mathematical model as unrealistic and doomed to failure.

Critics of neoclassical models accuse it of copying of 19th century mechanics and the "clockwork" model of society which seems to justify elite privileges as arising "naturally" from the social order based on economic competititions. This is echoed by modern critics in the anti-globalization movement who often blame the neoclassical theory, as it has been applied by the IMF in particular, for inequities in global debt and trade relations. They assert it ignores the complexity of nature and of human creativity, and seeks mechanical ideas like equilibrium...


So, contentions that statist intervention and regulation always lead to inefficiency, the market always knows best and that there is no viable alternative to laissez faire capitalism are...debatable. Game theory, in particular, offers some models that demonstrate the inefficiency of unregulated competition. I'm not saying that these models are "right", I am saying that they might not be "wrong".
 
 
Leap
08:21 / 06.05.03
Pin –

One of the interesting points about the traditional right in England is that they're still espousing a doctrine of local power and determination and a community spirit created through capitalism and I agree that that's a good thing. But they follow this up with open markets that crush local businesses, with large chains buying out their leases because they can and so forth. This is then justified because people go to these places because they have nowhere else to go. Is that community?

Such problems arise chiefly from a tax funded national transport infrastructure; where our taxes support a road/rail network that is primarily used by business and which enables big business to out price small local businesses by means of bulk buying and by supporting weaker stores with stronger ones long enough for small local competition to disappear.

Of course us shoppers have a responsibility to shop at our small local stores instead of big-business, in order to counter this monopolisation, but our high speed society (highly supported by our media system as well!) increasingly requires we use the cheaper supermarket one-stop over the small local stores…………a fight we cannot win without changing the focus of the entire economy and removing much of the transport infrastructure (and of course that means we would have to accept a phenomenal drop in wealth (kiss those playstations and SUVs goodbye).

And your point about the consumers winning in price wars: but if prices are cut so low that staff benefits are curtailed, everyone has to be super-efficient on the shop floor and don't get bonuses and have their wages cut and free water machines taken away- are these people not consumers too? Their quality of life drops, but they get TVs to crash in front of when they get home a bit cheaper.

I wish people would catch on HOW Asda / Wal-mart et al get “lower prices” and hwo such is NOT the be all and end all of shopping!!!!!
 
 
cusm
17:49 / 06.05.03
Such problems arise chiefly from a tax funded national transport infrastructure; where our taxes support a road/rail network that is primarily used by business and which enables big business to out price small local businesses by means of bulk buying and by supporting weaker stores with stronger ones long enough for small local competition to disappear.

That would be the effects of globalization in action, there. Its a typical example of the power of a national government in the hands of a private corporation. Transportation and communications allow an organization to span much further than ever before, growing in some cases (like the supermarkets) to where they can effectively dominate the market, rendering it no longer free but controlled in that sector.

This is a new animal to contend with in modern economics, which largely isn't contending with it at all. I mean, there's debate over if something like Walmart is even a "bad" thing. They certainly are able to offer goods to consumers more efficiently and at a lower price than private merchants, but the other effect is that other businesses can't enter the market. So, it seems to be a case of good for the consumer (at least initially), bad for free enterprise. One can no longer open a store, one must instead work as a clerk for the corporate giant, whose effect is indistinguishable from a soviet style controlled market in this way. Ironic, as it is unregulated free enterprise that allows such a thing to happen in the first place.
 
 
Leap
08:18 / 07.05.03
Cusm –

That would be the effects of globalization in action, there. Its a typical example of the power of a national government in the hands of a private corporation. Transportation and communications allow an organization to span much further than ever before, growing in some cases (like the supermarkets) to where they can effectively dominate the market, rendering it no longer free but controlled in that sector.

Yup.

This is a new animal to contend with in modern economics, which largely isn't contending with it at all. I mean, there's debate over if something like Wal-Mart is even a "bad" thing.

Or why it appears on Word’s spellchecker as default?!

They certainly are able to offer goods to consumers more efficiently and at a lower price than private merchants, but the other effect is that other businesses can't enter the market. So, it seems to be a case of good for the consumer (at least initially), bad for free enterprise. One can no longer open a store, one must instead work as a clerk for the corporate giant, whose effect is indistinguishable from a soviet style controlled market in this way. Ironic, as it is unregulated free enterprise that allows such a thing to happen in the first place.

This is what happens when folks mistake Capitalism for a Free Market. Capitalism starts from a Free Market, but abuses it, destroying its freedom by allowing two classes to develop (Ruling/Owner/Lords and Disenfranchised/Worker/Serfs). This in turn creates a call for Socialism (to half-measure re-enfranchise the workers by collective ownership – they all become sleeping partners who have no actual power of ownership….owners in ‘name’ only).

For a Free Market to remain free is must be self-regulating by participants who recognise the dangers of allowing monopolies/power-elites to dominate the market (ok, the idea of monopolies that dominate the market is a tautology but it works for purposes of illustration and emphasis!) – we need to hold ourselves, and each other, back, by seeking neither to become a monopoly/part-of-an-oligarchy our self nor allowing others to do so by our actions.

Our intensive transport and communication network is a situation that allows monopolies to develop (anything that allows quick, bulk, transport really), and so should be high on our list to ‘undo’ if we wish to embrace a truly free market (and incidentally undo the high degree of instability found in transport intensive societies – Hypermobility). The problem with that of course is that our current level of wealth is based upon a non-free-market with a massive tax-supported transport infrastructure (albeit a complete BS level of wealth given the amount of national debt in the UK and US, the amount of “trade” based in ripping off the third world, and the amount of wealth generated by environmentally unsustainable practices…often to maintain socially and physiologically damaging social practices (low exercise, crap diet (high in processed food, low in nutrition), high waste generation (from packaging to energy generation), high ‘soma’ intake (TV Soap/quizzes/sport/etc))).
 
 
cusm
13:39 / 07.05.03
Now the only problem I have with all this is, until this argument appears transport and communications are hailed as definitively beneficial powers of the modern Way Of Life. Indeed, they are in many ways the finest fruits of our technological advances, and a sign of how far we have progressed as animals. If we accept these things as good and do not wish to remove them (as would be necessary to prevent globalization), what does this mean for economy?

Should full globalization occur, what would we have? Lets take this to the extreme. For one, the chaos and competetion of free markets would disappear, as commodities can now be controlled completely by a single entity. But a megacorp would not stop with just one commodity, would it? The final economic arena would be the last remaining corporate giants battling amongs eachother for control of the remaining markets, until cooperation wins over competetion and all merge into one massive economic corporate structure. The end effect then of capitalism left to run to its extreme is global controlled markets.

Now the interesting question (since this thread is on capitalism, afterall): would this be a good thing? Certainly, it would have the power to regulate prices such that goods may go where they are most needed. It would also contain a vested interest in not exploiting the market too heavily, as a market collapse with only one player means that that player suffers from their own mistake. So, this entity must assume the role of government in protection of the system as a whole, for it IS the system. It must ensure the distribution of wealth is curved enough to support verying degrees of class, to allow the desire to rise in class to modivate economic growth. It must in a way allow for the effects of free markets to occur at the lower levels, while still maintaining a control over the market to ensure its success. Competetion in this case would have no meaning for profit, but would still be important for gathering market data on what products or services are needed and successful. So you end up with a sort of simulated free market, within a governemnt structure much as we have today.

In effect, by privatizing government of economics, the system may well work better than it does currently, with the seperation between government and corporate interests, by simply making those who desire responsible for what they have taken. Its also a bit like questioning if the world would work better if someone took the lot over. As really, if this is the final destiny of capitalism (should it succeed) it should be taken into account on how this force is dealt with presently.
 
 
cusm
13:41 / 07.05.03
Short version:

The question in the topic abstract: "What is capitalism all about?"

Answer: Taking over the world.
 
 
Leap
14:15 / 07.05.03
Cusm –

The question in the topic abstract: "What is capitalism all about?"

Answer: Taking over the world.


A free market that allows greed creates a rich elite. A rich elite become ‘nobles’. The nobles create capitalism (a two class system of lords and serfs, owners and workers). This creates a desire for enfranchisement by the now institutionalised serfs, so they seek “collective ownership” (where they all “own” but have no “power of control over what they own”). Socialism. Ta-dar!

All because the original free-market did not recognise the responsibility of each participant not to seek, or support, greed. Tsk Tsk.
 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
  
Add Your Reply