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Women's Space and Trans Exclusion

 
  

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Disco is My Class War
08:27 / 19.12.01
Also, Haus, I think a lot of mtf's would question your categorisation of them as 'men'...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:36 / 19.12.01
That's an extremely good point, Rosa. I guess what I was trying to say is that the mainstream media are fascinated by the idea of the transformation, or perhaps complication of a male (rather than a man's) body into/with something other than a male (in the sense of exhibiting the "natural" - normative - characteristics of maleness) physical narrative. This may be a purely British phenomenon, but our tabloids are always wild for an MTF story.
 
 
pantone 292
10:53 / 19.12.01
'tis indeed a shame that Rosa, Ierne and myself are cursed by this continental drift...
anyway, ouch, hot potato subject, still can't decide what i really think here or whether i have any definitive thoughts, which may be good, ergo some randomly ordered ones which may not add up

like, I think it was Rosa, I've also lost faith in the assumptions about safety in women's space - one of the sources of recognition I found in Gender Trouble was Butler's writing around the policing of identity - including from 'within' marginalised identities. One of the most tiring aspects for me in my former lives in the north of england was around looking 'too' femme. Even in Manchester myself and several bisexual female friends were asked to name lesbian films [!] before being allowed into clubs. How brief a time it seemed that any lesbian or queer appropriations of feminine signifiers had any degree of credibility before the promotion of kinging.

i always wonder about the effects of sexology - still - in the discourses of sexuality even as used by transfolk [and my encounters have largely been through academic and other public talks]. There frequently seems to be a call to the 'truth' of the subject's being - as 'really' male or female rectified by surgery. Though I remember liking Sandy Stone's article called I think 'The empire strikes back; a post-transexual manifesto' for breaking the retrospective narrative installment of the sex that the subject desires to be.

I suppose I have an intense love of and for the ficto-critico-rhetorical figurations of sexuality and the call to biology always somehow disappoints me.

the last time i saw del speak he was using 'he' and requesting 'he' as his pronoun of choice. Here I come up against a mismatch between wanting to respect someone's wishes but also the most extremely phallic and instrumental use and expectation of language - I'm thinking of del's self-presentation of himself as an Artist which has always struck me as wholly conventional - as massively invested in [I]his[I/] signature. [Ironically, or not, 'del' is used in print history to mean 'signed by'.]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
12:52 / 19.12.01
top
 
 
pantone 292
13:04 / 19.12.01
and, er... bottom?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
15:28 / 19.12.01
haha.

want to keep this near the top cos del grace wanted to check out the discussion.
 
 
Ria
16:02 / 19.12.01
haus (and others): the notion of a MTF sex change seems to have an erotic charge for many het men don't they? [rhetorical question] even Dave Sim copped to that one*.

(perhaps I have this wrong because I believed that everyone shared my interest. before I myself transitioned.)

SFD: when you say "that's fucked up" relative to strap-on.org and discussing FTM's... did you mean fucked up to accuse FTM's of 'trendiness' or fucked up for them to go through this because other more people do nowadays?

pretty much it seems to me tricky. on one hand making something trendy makes it more easy for someone who has not transitioned to summon up the courage to do so.

dykes who call themselves TG... yeah... pretty widespread. I have witnessed some conflict over that at a specific workshop a few years ago. basically TS people saying, "you stole our label." IMHO the word genderqueer works just as well. hope I won't cause a shitstorm over even bringing this up.

I don't know what to say when a woman who I regard as more female in style of reasoning and actions and reactions in every single way refers to themselves as TG. she has/had a big attraction to MTF women apart from which I think she mostly or only feels attraction to (non-macho) men. with her I think, "self-deluded". but I don't know her inner self as much as I would have called her a close friend at the time she said this to me.

* -- he did itin the introduction to the bi-weekly Cerebus re-prints, one of the Deadalbino ones).
 
 
Ria
16:03 / 19.12.01
oh and if anyone would like hand me my own head on a plate for what I have said please do so off the list rather than cause the shitstorm on barbelith. ta!
 
 
Shortfatdyke
16:15 / 19.12.01
ria - for the life of me i cannot find my quote that you referred to. i want to answer your question - i might be being rather dim here, but can you pinpoint where it is you quoted from?
 
 
Ria
16:36 / 19.12.01
SFD, I messed up. both about the content of the post and its authorship.

quote:Originally posted by Rosa d'Ruckus:
There has also been an 'interesting' debate on www.strap-on.org recently about transitioning in an ftm sense as 'faddism'. A few people expressed the feeling that they'd seen lots of dykes get right into genderqueer and start taking hormones, get top surgery, etc etc because 'everyone was doing it' or 'it was trendy'. Which, people said, was fucked up.

I have no idea what to say to that.
 
 
grant
18:06 / 19.12.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of a sudden chill:
On another thread in the Head Shop, Grant pointed out that the "natural" (and I use the term precisely because it will make all right-thinking people break out in hives. And I use the term "right-thinking people" precisely because it will make all etc.) pronoun is the masculine. Is this at all relevant to the fact that Del Grace is now referred to by Rosa as "he"?


Was that me? How unnatural.... Sure it wasn't Nick?

quote:This may be a purely British phenomenon, but our tabloids are always wild for an MTF story.

No, ours are too in the US.
Odd, I don't recall doing a FTM story except in the context of a marriage. Whereas MTF stories are always "lone rebel faces unfeeling establishment" format, with a bit of a (squirmish) jokey edge to them.
I treasure this thank you card I got from a MTF transsexual politician from Houston for fair treatment in a story (of course, it's still in the desk in the off-limits building). Interesting character. Was married for decades, fathered a (gay) son before depupating into herself. Son wrote an off-Broadway play about it.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:43 / 20.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Ria:
SFD: when you say "that's fucked up" relative to strap-on.org and discussing FTM's... did you mean fucked up to accuse FTM's of 'trendiness' or fucked up for them to go through this because other more people do nowadays?


I wasn't saying it was fucked up or not, Ria, I was merely relaying an argument exprssed on strap-on. I don't think explaining people's incredibly life-changing decisions to transition as 'trendy' is polite or considerate. People have all sorts of reasons for transitioning and in yr average ideal world it wouldn't be up to anyone to make judgements about the validity of their reasons for doing so. Making ftm bodies/narratives visible does seem to have opened up possibilities for many dykes (and not-dykes) -- the only people who would say that's a bad thing are the people who feel threatened and worry that the dyke community will be either 'decimated' or 'taken over'.


[/QB]dykes who call themselves TG... yeah... pretty widespread. I have witnessed some conflict over that at a specific workshop a few years ago. basically TS people saying, "you stole our label." IMHO the word genderqueer works just as well. [QB]

Well, maybe and maybe not. What difference does it make? And to me, TS is a very different qualitative word to TG, although I'm wary of getting too semantic about this whole thing. What people call themselves is obviously important to them, right? Personally (with all the investments I have about 'genderqueer' or 'transgender' or 'ftm', which I wouldn't call myself now but may do in the future) I would like to help create a world in which the possibilties of genderqueer and transitioning multiply with every person who does it, and where people can access medical and legal and psychological support, whatever 'kind' of transition they prefer. Whether this is known as genderqueer or transsexuality or transgenderism is far less important to me. But y'know, that's me.

(And Ria, don't worry about creating a shitstorm... Argue with me, argue with me!)
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:46 / 20.12.01
quote:Originally posted by shortfatdyke:
haha.

want to keep this near the top cos del grace wanted to check out the discussion.


Am I allowed to swoon now?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
04:55 / 20.12.01
go right ahead, rosa!
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
06:42 / 20.12.01
*Thud*

Easy there, tiger - that one nearly crushed my toesies!

[ 20-12-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Huggling Wolery ]
 
 
Ria
15:02 / 20.12.01
I consider Barbelith 'neutral turf' enough to say some things I hope I won't regret later.

on a queer-specific mailing list I don't think I would...

quote:Originally posted by Rosa d'Ruckus:


I wasn't saying it was fucked up or not, Ria, I was merely relaying an argument exprssed on strap-on. I don't think explaining people's incredibly life-changing decisions to transition as 'trendy' is polite or considerate.


oh I did understand that you yourself did not nessecarily believe this but that you only meant to paraphrase what others had said.

and I agree with you on that and doubt that many people would go through a lot of hell as gender change entails merely to make a point or whatever.

(I still can't wrap my mind around the trans man who I saw on a talk show more than ten years ago [one of the first I ever I ever 'encountered' in a media context] who said that he had transitioned for "political" reasons. that disturbed me then and still disturbs me for some reason.)

quote:dykes who call themselves TG... yeah... pretty widespread. I have witnessed some conflict over that at a specific workshop a few years ago. basically TS people saying, "you stole our label." IMHO the word genderqueer works just as well."

Well, maybe and maybe not. What difference does it make? And to me, TS is a very different qualitative word to TG, although I'm wary of getting too semantic about this whole thing. What people call themselves is obviously important to them, right? Personally (with all the investments I have about 'genderqueer' or 'transgender' or 'ftm', which I wouldn't call myself now but may do in the future) I would like to help create a world in which the possibilties of genderqueer and transitioning multiply with every person who does it, and where people can access medical and legal and psychological support, whatever 'kind' of transition they prefer. Whether this is known as genderqueer or transsexuality or transgenderism is far less important to me. But y'know, that's me.


hmmm. let me clarify a little. this had more to do with (hypothetical examples) very femme gay men or masculine women calling themselves TG. as opposed to say, me, calling myself TG but not TS.

I witnessed more upset than felt upset myself. at the end of it I felt something like, "definitions, semantics, concepts, not worth shedding blood over."

the woman I most personally disagreed with I considered a friend. I chose to not bring it up and never have, never will, because I do not consider it worth it to do so.
 
 
inteceptor
00:25 / 31.12.01
oh my god how do i react to a situation that is being reinforced by those supposed to be implementing change. . its a constant struggle to 'create a space for an idea' and certain idoits trample intimate spaces but i do not understand this womans motives as division is surely the cause of problems between the sexes. the lesbian verses gay mentality really puzzles me, i thought my boyfriend might dump me for being a part time trannie, i just hear cruel digs from both sides what a pavlova
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:36 / 31.12.01
Mmmmmm, but tasty though. It seems to be an almost unavoidable part of the political process, you define your group by how other people don't fit in it. I remember hearing about some trans group that were campaigning for Mumia Abu Jamal and got some complaints about why they were 'wasting time' on that when it wasn't a trans issue and the chairwoman patiently explained it was a human rights issue...
 
 
grant
15:28 / 09.04.07
Bumping this old thread to point out a recent Boston Globe story about how those pesky FTMs are messing with New England's noble all-girls institutions.



The Seven Sisters colleges were founded in the 19th century, and famous graduates have ranged from anthropologist Margaret Mead (Barnard) to actresses Stockard Channing (Radcliffe) and Meryl Streep (Vassar) to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (Wellesley). Vassar started accepting male students in 1969, and Radcliffe officially merged with Harvard College in 1999, leaving just five sisters – Mt. Holyoke, Bryn Mawr, Smith, Barnard, and Wellesley.

But the same empowerment and opportunity for self-discovery that an all-female school provides may also make survival as single-sex institutions that much harder for the remaining sisters. After all, the real challenge that transmen are forcing women’s colleges to face is an ideological one: Is it still a women’s college when some students who were female as freshmen are male by graduation day?


and

A member of Smith’s Republican Club and editor-in-chief of its conservative newspaper, junior Samantha Lewis, 20, doesn’t mind speaking on the record. “I think it’s ironic that there are Smithies who do not want to be women, and, to be completely honest, it seems to me that it defeats the purpose of being at a women’s college.” While Nicole guesses that the trans population at Smith is 30 out of about 2,500 undergraduates, Lewis thinks that the number is at least twice as big. “The first person I met on campus was a man,” Lewis says. “He said, ‘Hi, I’m Ethan, and I use male pronouns.’ ”

It *seems* from my cursory reading to be better than most coverage of this type. Is that an accurate reaction?

It also tangles with ideas of safe spaces and gender exclusion. And uses the phrase "politically incorrect."
 
 
Ticker
15:43 / 09.04.07
I though it was interesting that there was no mention of MtF applicants or students?
Did I miss it?
 
 
grant
16:47 / 09.04.07
Well, given the age of yer average college freshman (oo! gendered language!), I'd be surprised if there were that many trans-women interested in applying to women's colleges. I could be way off on that. I certainly didn't see any mention of MtFs in the article.
 
 
Ticker
17:02 / 09.04.07
ok so are we back to the question of creating safe space for people who self-id as female? What are these school's policies on non female students applying? Is the question specificly about what should these communities do or how they should reply to questions of transitional gender?

I'd like to see how they handle MtF transwomen applicants though I realize that's moving the goal posts a bit.
 
 
Lugue
17:56 / 09.04.07
I think it's interesting as an occurence that underlines gender as, in particular instances, temporal, and that seems to be how the question needs to be framed. Rather than in terms of "who is female (enough)?", a question of categorization, in terms of "are we built for the past, for the present, for the future, for all, or a combination of these?". Which I understand may seem an idiotic distinction to be made, but it highlights a gendered experience as a temporary one in a potentially useful way; are they preparing individuals who have lived as women, or are they preparing those who will function as women in society?

It might be a silly point, but I hope it at least gets across; I'm just chewing the idea.
 
 
*
19:20 / 09.04.07
Va de Folia, I think that's a helpful way of looking at it. Thank you.
 
 
*
20:59 / 09.04.07
Quoted from someone on my LJ friends list about this article, grant, which maybe could give you pause for reflection before you add any more (faint) praise:

To the editor:

PLEASE STOP FUCKING PUBLISHING THE BIRTH NAMES OF TRANS PEOPLE WHO NOW GO BY DIFFERENT NAMES. STOP FUCKING ASKING, AND STOP FUCKING PRINTING THEM.

Love and Kisses,
The angry transman

PS You're really fucking close on the pronouns, but you can't quite manage it can you? Funny how even a college newspaper reporter can do it right.

PPS Yes, all transmen were lesbians. Who can afford surgery.

PPPS I see you're interested in my genitals and noted that T "enlarges the clitoris." I've enclosed a picture of my tranny cock. Please do print it with this letter. Inquiring minds want to know.

To transmen:

"But at Bryn Mawr, L[.] Gold can’t wait to begin to transition and started seeing a gender therapist last month. 'I feel like other transmen accept or validate you based on where you stand in your transition,' Gold says. 'I don’t want to be sneered at for still having a woman’s body.'"

Yes I know it's really hard not to make people feel like there is a hierarchy based on bodies, but those of us who have the desire and ability to access physical transition should really make the effort not to make people like Gold feel that they have to physically transition in order to be accepted by other transmen. Thanks.


I'm quoting someone else (with permission) because I don't think I should be one of two out trans men active on the board representing a vast swath of different opinions. What I felt was that this article isn't particularly better than others on the subject, and I'm not terribly happy with it. I was somewhat relieved to see that I wasn't alone in that.

I gather from having heard many other trans folk talk about the situation with women's colleges that they don't include trans women. I don't know if some have a policy in place about this or if it's simply never come up, for which there would probably be several reasons.
 
 
nixwilliams
08:37 / 13.04.07
From the article: Murphy is practically indistinguishable from a very small, fairly handsome young man.

What. The fuck. I have to second the letter to the editor quoted above.

(And I'll add myself to id's count, though I post very infrequently!)
 
 
godhole
06:41 / 25.04.07
Id wrote, "I gather from having heard many other trans folk talk about the situation with women's colleges that they don't include trans women. I don't know if some have a policy in place about this or if it's simply never come up, for which there would probably be several reasons."

Many do have policies, not widely publicized, and not nearly as tasty a hook for a Sunday Globe article. Sorry to say, the same systems that see male-identified FTMs as a subset of "women" see female-identified MTFs as a subset of "men." (I specify male- and female- identified, since there are many who occupy the label FTM as 'not-women' rather than as 'man.') Some women's schools in Mass. (where Smith is located) require that transwomen have their birth certificates changed in order to be able to apply for school. People who know the arbitrary nature of documentation changes for transsexuals in the U.S. have an idea of the barrier that this presents, since any required SRS is most often an out of pocket expense...even if every transwoman wanted to have lower surgery.

It is a complex issue, but as I see it, an injustice lies in a common blindness or lack of advocacy on the part of most FTMs on these campuses in arguing for their sisters. There seems to be a taint of "male privilege" misused - that many of those who wish to be known by male pronouns and names, who might medically transition to live in society as males, do not cede women's space to those least able to access it, yet who are truly most in need of that access. As a longterm post-transition man of transsexual experience, who is a gay man (but het female-identified for the first few decades of life) - the way I think of it is that when I move apartments, I turn in the keys. So what would happen if a male-identified privileged young adult argued for inclusion of MTFs at hir college? Why, sie might just have to transfer, and that would be uncomfortable and inconvenient. (Again, my sternness is more directed at those FTMs who are male-ID'd, and not those who are not-women-ID'd. If that makes sense.)

All that said, I have heard of some deep stealth women of trans experience attending women's colleges, although that would imply so many personal history ducks in a row, at that age, that the mind boggles. As someone who is often in male-only spaces, sexual and otherwise (poking at a strand from further up the thread) - I sincerely hope they had friends to confide in when necessary. And yes - young transwomen ~do~ desire to attend women's colleges, especially as more youth are shaping a trans identity earlier, in supportive contexts, in ways that would allow them to successfully navigate a competitive college application process. I have seen close up how heartbroken and destabilized they are when they are told they are not allowed to attend classes at the very schools where female-born trans students give their seal of approval to the trans-friendliness ~they~ have found on campus.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:25 / 25.04.07
All that said, I have heard of some deep stealth women of trans experience attending women's colleges, although that would imply so many personal history ducks in a row, at that age, that the mind boggles.

FWIW, I applied last year to attend a mature women's college (without disclosing my sexual history), and I didn't come across anything that would suggest it would involve significantly more "personal history ducks" than I currently have to make at w*rk (which is very few, really). I don't see college/university experience as being qualitatively different from other environments in this respect; "stealth" inherently involves a degree of compromise in how much personal information one can reveal, so it's not really exclusive to inhabiting gender-exclusive spaces.

Erm, happy to answer any questions if I can be of any help.
 
 
godhole
16:01 / 25.04.07
Thank you for prompting me to clarify my words. I was speaking to Grant's question about transwomen in colleges, in the context of the women's schools discussed in the article. Those are for the most part comprised of young women in their late teens and early twenties. In my work with trans youth (both professional and a decade+ of activism & mentoring), I have seen very few young MTFs who got through high school with high grades and extracurricular activities (not saying trans teens aren't smart - quite the opposite! - but stresses take their toll on grades and performance). Now select from that group those who have transitioned physically (with parent's help and permission and finances) enough to get birth documentation changed, which in some states (like Mass.) includes lower surgery, which iteself might stipulate at least a year fulltime on hormones...and all of that completed in rough accordance with the compressed timing of college application schedules. Those are the "ducks" I was referring to.

Not saying it doesn't happen, but access, medical privacy and self-advocacy & agency, and independence from family pressures looks very different for those of us who are older, compared with young people who might also still be on parent's health insurance (if any). It is indeed possible for transsexuals to access gendered spaces - stealth or less so (in my case as a sexually active gay man born female, when I play with a guy, some info gets away from me!), and I would say "less so" as far as stealth would apply to emergency situations where colleges are in loco parentis. In that sense, the challenges faced by younger transwomen seem to me to present more barriers than I myself face.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
16:46 / 25.04.07
Ah - sorry, I thought you were referring to having to constantly "duck" being compelled to give away one's personal history, inherent to a greater or lesser extent in "going stealth" in any environment, rather than more institutional difficulties. I suspect the latter are probably more relevant in the USA than where I am in the UK; at the age of 19 or so I didn't have any difficulties changing my passport, and have certainly never been asked by any place for a birth certificate (except as one form of identification amongst multiple other options). Thanks for clarifying.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:53 / 26.04.07
I'm surprised the article didn't appear to have any interviews with the people running these universities.

And to one of 'the angry transman's points, is it really so bad to use female pronouns to refer to a period in someone's past when they were a different sex? This article was a hell of a lot better than the articles you can see in newspapers even today which insist on using the wrong pronouns throughout, but this isn't like that, is it?
 
 
Ticker
14:03 / 26.04.07
And to one of 'the angry transman's points, is it really so bad to use female pronouns to refer to a period in someone's past when they were a different sex?

Well IMO I tend to take the individual's direction. Many folks I know source their gender not from the state of their bodies. So where you would define their 'different sex' is blurry. If someone has felt they have always been gendered male it seems respectful to honor that by using the pronouns they request be used even retroactively.
IME, asking what pronoun is appropriate from a sincere desire to respect the other person's experience has never resulted in offense.
 
 
nixwilliams
11:42 / 28.04.07
I guess this is getting a little off-topic, but:

And to one of 'the angry transman's points, is it really so bad to use female pronouns to refer to a period in someone's past when they were a different sex?

To echo XK, that should ideally be a decision made by the individual and respected by the speaker/writer. I would personally prefer that someone used my current pronoun, and I quite like the (apparent) conflict in statements like, "When he was a young girl, he . . ." I'm sure others feel differently.

Part of the problem is that a lot of reporting, as pointed out, is excruciatingly bad in the pronoun department, so trans people are already on edge regarding this issue. However, sometimes it can feel that a writer is undermining a transguy's gender identity in a really sly way by using feminine pronouns in reference to a time he was 'really a girl', without realising/acknowledging that he might never have felt he was a girl even before 'coming out' as trans. Because this is seen as an appropriate use of feminine pronouns it's quite hard to argue against or to show that it can be disrespectful. When it happens over and over it can be extremely frustrating.

I think using feminine pronouns in reference to 'life before' and masculine for 'life after' (or vice versa) also creates/fosters a sense of dichotomy that may not be the experience of the individual. It can exaggerate the femininity of 'before', the masculinity of 'after' and it can make the break between the two seem much more pronounced. I think, too, that it can make it difficult for transpeople to claim their own histories in a positive way - for instance, if the only way I am allowed to imagine my childhood is by being/seeing/imagining a girl, I am less inclined to visit that space. Then again, this is my own view and other people might disagree.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:34 / 28.04.07
Thanks to XK and nixwilliams for their responses, it had never occured to me quite what a minefield this whole thing can be.
 
 
godhole
15:31 / 28.04.07
nixwilliams wrote, I think using feminine pronouns in reference to 'life before' and masculine for 'life after' (or vice versa) also creates/fosters a sense of dichotomy that may not be the experience of the individual.

That is my take too. I am glad to see that many people (transfolks and nontrans service providers) are starting to use the phrase "Gender Confirmation," rather than "Sexual Reassignment" (for surgeries, hormones, etc.) - even though referring to "SRS" is still common. That points out that for a lot of us, medical technologies are not about re-assigning so much as re-aligning.

As far as news articles, there are guidelines put out by the AP, and you can find a summary plus other helpful links here. This might seem a tad off-topic for the thread, but I would offer that how we speak about people's gender in common sources does indeed influence where transfolk fit in or do not, even if those spaces are primarily those of our common imaginings.
 
  

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