BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


New X-Men #139

 
  

Page: 1(2)3456

 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
03:25 / 27.01.03
The effect is the same, but there's a hell of a lot more meaning in Jean kicking back with the Black Queen wear than with her sittin' on a cloth.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:00 / 27.01.03
It still looks like retrogressive pseudo-Victoria's Secret tit-claw stuff, though.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
15:42 / 27.01.03
While you're right about the tit clawage, I'd hazard a guess and say that the regressiveness is the point. Both are dressed in their early 80's "super villian" costumes.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
17:48 / 28.01.03
Only Claremont to come up with such a crappy issue - does Emma at least have a reason to humiliate the pair, or is just a whim of hers?


Considering the history between Emma and Sage, the reaction is pretty in character.


Come on, Laurence, Emma and Bishop are grown-ups; isn't a bit ridiculous to have them fighting like kids? It's damn silly, actually.

Besides, Emma is way too subtle to manifest a direct attack on Bishop - considering she's a telepath, and she wanted to humiliate him, she could have planted some fake and sick memories in his mind to mine his confidence and stuff - that would be a 'pretty in character' reaction.

I thought Marvel was beyond this crap of putting hero fighting against hero, but i'm wrong, i see.
 
 
some guy
19:30 / 28.01.03
Come on, Laurence, Emma and Bishop are grown-ups; isn't a bit ridiculous to have them fighting like kids? It's damn silly, actually.

Have you read the issue? It had nothing to do with Bishop - he was involved only because she was there. Sage effectively betrayed Emma for years as a Hellfire Club mole. Her rage is perfectly understandable. And based on the way she treats people, allowing her students to get their kicks in is in keeping with her character - degrading the adults and maintaining plausible deniability.

Emma is way too subtle to manifest a direct attack on Bishop

Right. This would be the Emma who once swapped bodies with Storm before engaging in an aerial catfight. And she's subtle. With those clothes. Sure.

I thought Marvel was beyond this crap of putting hero fighting against hero

You think Emma's a hero? Not only are you talking without reading the X-Treme issue in question, but it appears you haven't been reading New X-Men very closely, either. Emma and Sage have two decades of history between them as Marvel villains...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
01:01 / 30.01.03
Two decades of being really kinky villans I should add. And since BSDM and fetish are such big parts of X-treme X-Men (no, I'm not kidding), I'm thinking the humilation games between Emma and Sage are particularly fitting.

If still a bit creepy since I keep picturing Claremeont writing one-handedly.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:44 / 30.01.03
Yeah, speaking as a person who now owns the X-Treme issue in question, has read it, and has a very strong handle on X-history from actually reading the things, I've got to say that Claremont was in the ballpark with his characterization of Emma. Do I think he was being over the top? Yes. Do I think he was being particularly reverent of Grant's version of the character? Nah. But he was generally on the mark, and it didn't really contradict anything Emma's ever done. Either way, I think Claremont should be cut some slack. Emma's his character, after all.

The other thing that should be kept in mind about X-Treme X-Men is that it is not meant for the same that reads NXM - it's supposed to be the melodramatic traditional superhero X-Men comic. However, if you've read the recent Austen/Asamiya issues of Uncanny X-Men, nothing Chris Claremont and Sal Larocca could work up could compete with the insane melodrama and general shittiness of that comic.

I thought XXM #20 was pretty decent, all told. It has its quirks and flaws, but it was perfectly acceptable for what its meant to be.
 
 
some guy
10:38 / 30.01.03
I thought XXM #20 was pretty decent

What the fuck is wrong with me that when Claremont hits "pretty decent" I get all gooey inside? Damn childhood!
 
 
perceval
18:00 / 30.01.03



Well, in Emma's case, it was a little over a decade being a villain. She's been playing the heroine since that crossover that Generation X spun out of.

E
 
 
Quireboy
16:54 / 09.03.03
With Emma and Jean's psychic catfight approaching I thought that Morrison's comments in the Newsarama Filth interview might also be relevant to the Phoenix plotline and Jean's ascension to godhead...

GM: There's a whole level of Qabalistic symbolism which runs through the series [The Filth]. As a practicing magician for over two decades now, I reached a point over a year ago where I felt it was time to take the terrifying 'Oath of the Abyss' and ascend to the 'grade' of ipssissimus - as it's known in the Aleister Crowley Golden Dawn hierarchical system of magical attainment. This requires undergoing an ordeal, the nature of which amounts to a personality-shattering meditation upon and encounter with the incoherent forces of 'the Dark Side' of the so-called Tree of Life, that is, all the negative states of consciousness available to us as human beings - fear, guilt, shame, hatred, loneliness, sickness, pain etc..
 
 
Quireboy
18:51 / 11.03.03
Ok, looks like I'm talking to myself on this one! Anyway, had a glance through Claremont's original Phoenix storyline - and it's clear Morrison is taking Jean down a path that Chris was exploring but probably got diverted from by Byrne and his editors.

Like Morrison Claremont was drawing on the Qabala in his portrayal of Phoenix. In All New X-Men 108 when Jean enters the M'Kraan crystal and repairs it, he refers to her as "Tiphareth, child of the sun, child of life, the vision of the harmony of things." The energy lattice she forms to contain the neutron galaxy is "shaped like the mystic tree of life - with Xavier at its lofty crown and Colossus at its base. Each X-man has a place, each a purpose greater than himself or herself."

Tiphereth, the sixth principal of the Qabalistic Tree of Life, encompassing beauty and harmony. Tiphereth mediates between Kether (the crown, the pure spirit), and Malkuth (kingdom, earth), Tiphereth also reflects Kether (the first sephiroth of the tree of life).  "That which is above is like that which is below, and that which is below, is like that which is above".  Kether is also linked with the grade of Ipssissimus, the highest possible attainment of the consciousness.  "I recognize every phenomenon as God, that is, as my soul."  

The definition of Ipssissimus is that which is, "Wholly free from all limitations soever, existing in the nature of all things without discriminations of quantity or quality between them, she has identified being and not being, and becoming, action and non-action, and tendency to action, with all other triplicities, not distinguishing between them in respect of any conditions, or between any one thing and any other thing as to whether it is with or without conditions."

Now from the Bomb: "In the Mystical Qabalah, there is a model for existence called the "Tree of Life" (TOL). It has 10 spheres, leading from the world to the divine and back down again. Mysticism is to rise into the oneness of everything. Magick is to bring the connection with the divine intent back down into the world and manifest it. To do it, one ( an individual, a collective, etc.) must cross the Abyss.

The Abyss is represented on the TOL as an 'invisible' sphere just below the last three spheres, which are called the supernals. The supernals possess no duality. Communication with them does not come from knowledge of opposties. It comes from oneness. I digress. To reach the supernals, you must cross the Abyss. The Abyss is 'invisible' because, although it has a representation on the tree with proximity to the supernals, it is neither here nor there. It is everywhere and no where. Just as the supernals are. The thing about the Abyss is that it is the gateway to the unconscious. It is the gateway to the reverse side of the TOL. What is sometimes called Universe 'B'. The front of the TOL being Universe 'A'. The reverse side of the TOL represents the demonology (archons), what quabalistically is called the Quilpoth . It represents all of our supressed, unrefined, unacknowledged apsects of unconscious awareness. To successfully cross the Abyss, we must first resolve all that is unresolved within the Abyss.

Another attribution of the invisible sphere is the sphere of 'knowledge'. But it is knowledege without understanding. The understanding comes from communion with the Supernals. Without the 'divine' understanding of the knowledge, one has only 'false' knowledge. Magick without understanding is Colonel Friday. Knowledge as the godhead is a false god. It is communion with life that is the intent of our existnece. That is what we are programmed for.

Notice the Tree of Life contains the Tree of Knowledge. This is no accident. We must first have knowledge of who we are not, before we may become who we are. "It all follows a plan.."

There, in The Abyss, resides the gatekeeper, Choronzon. Choronzon is frequently referred to as the dispersion of false knowledge. The eater of the Ego. The Trickster. "Surprise! That wasn't you!" Until we integrate all that exists in both the Universes of A and B in a way that resolves our intentions into that which allows us to pass encumbered into the divine, we will never truly cross the Abyss. Hence, we will never truly realize the manifestation of what we truly are. "

Now in the origninal Claremont Phoenix storyline Matermind is Chorozon, Jean doesn't see through his lies until it is too late by then she has looked into the Abyss too long and becomes Dark Phoenix.

In NXM Chorozon is Phantomex, only this time Jean sees through his deception early on. (Though she's attracted to him, as she was to Mastermind.) So perhaps we can see the breakdown of her relationship with Scott and her possible disillusionment with Xavier's dream as the trials that lead Jean to realise that she is no longer Scott's wife or just an X-Man, which in turn leads her to realise her true self - as the Phoenix.
 
 
Aertho
19:24 / 11.03.03
Okay, I've been down with Kabbalah for a while now, but your explanation probably helped a lot of people not that far yet.

Anyway... As far as your Kabbalistic analogy of the Phoenix storyline:
1.How do you know Claremont had all those Qaballic intentions during the late seventies? Where did you read it? Or did you happen across Claremont peppering his exposition with a cool-new-Jewish word? I'd be very interested in the furthering of the X-TOL if you could tell me besides Phoenix=Tiphereth, Xavier=Kether, and Colossus=Malkuth, who among that team corresponded to each of the other spheres? Wolverine=Geburah? Storm=Chesed?

2. While I agree that the Phoenix is becoming an analogy for "NO-LIMITS JEAN" (read: not Jean Grey-Summers) I feel that this current incarnation is only Jean's mutation tapping into her full limitless potential, not the Phoenix Force tapping into the body of Jean Grey. I could go on about her subconscious processing her power and developing an alternate consciousness if you'd like. The assumption that Jean is becoming the mutant-manifestation of Tiphereth seems limiting to me.

As the saying goes, the student must surpass the teacher... and I see Jean as actually getting to Kether. Xavier might be the one limited into worshipping the False Knowledge Godhead. The mere fact that she's ALSO a telekine and he's not might be all the difference. I could elaborate that as well.

3. The analogy of Choronzon in both stories seems accurate -but only to an extent. Like I said before, do you have CC on record as wanting to bring the Qabala in to the X-Men? Mastermind may have only been a big baddie. I see Fantomex in a completely different light. He challenges Xavier, and will continue to challenge him.

Keep talking -you're interesting.

However, I am NOT interested in fanboys trying to "correct" the Jean-was-Phoenix-all-along case. Played the F out, thankyou.
 
 
Quireboy
20:02 / 11.03.03
I don't KNOW for sure that was Claremont's intention ... but it seems likely. He didn't want Phoenix to turn evil - that plot twist was the work of the editors, backed by Byrne, who couldn't see how the storyline would pan out and didn't want an all-powerful 'good' character on the team.

I'm not interested in whether Jean has always been Phoenix, or any of that crap (- read the X-Fan messageboard and weep at their Jean Grey/Phoenix thread). My advice to anyone new to the X-Men is read up to Days of Future Past (ok, maybe a bit further) then jump to Morrison's run.

I might just email Claremont to see whether he'll shed any light on his original intentions (unlikely).
 
 
ciarconn
20:07 / 11.03.03
Two short things:

firt, i had been trying to understand this Cabalah, and Quireboy's explanation really helped me with personal doubts (Thanks Quireboy) (Sychronicities)

two, I did read those old Claremont/Byrne issues (in a mexican reprinting, mind you), I do remember the scene where Phoenix holds together the MKrann crystal, helped by the will/soul of the other X Men, and there really was a drawing of the tree of life, and those words cited by Quireboy. I think It was also shonw in the adaptation in the 90's X Men cartoon (obviously simplified)

God, this is sooo... after all these years, it's going to result in Claremont being an esoterist or a mage...
 
 
Quireboy
20:20 / 11.03.03
Yes in that crappy animated series from the 90s they do show the X-men making up the Tree of Life. Anyway, I just emailed Claremont ... don't hold your breath though.
 
 
Quireboy
20:33 / 11.03.03
OK I've started a new thread to discuss the Phoenix and the Qabala connection further.
 
 
Quimper
13:51 / 08.04.03
Ethan Van Sciver posted: "They're getting ready to pose for the real cover. The photographer is working out the lighting."

I'm going to take this comment seriously for a minute. Why would Morrison (I'm assuming it was his decision) want to portray the setup before an actual event? This issue could be a setup for the actual murder, which will take place in #140. The two X-Women, portrayed in their "girls gone wild" personas posing for an event that will never take place. I somehow no longer question the innate morality of both of these characters. I think next issue will be the beginning of Jean and Emma learning to play nice-nice.
 
 
Eskay Uno
14:04 / 08.04.03
I doubt Grant has much control over the covers on NXM. I think they'd be a lot more interesting if he did.

As for Jean and Emma and Scott, WHY NOT have a threesome? It fits in with the "integration of opposites" and "make friends with your enemy" themes Grant's got going...


Yeah, I know it won't happen. Even if Jean proposed it, Scott and Emma wouldn't go through with it.
 
 
Quimper
16:58 / 08.04.03
When was the original Dark Phoenix saga? Late 1970s? Regardless, the cover reminds me of two catty 1970s supermodels, like cybill shepherd and cheryl tiegs or farrah fawcett and kate jackson after a bad day on the Charlie's Angels (woah, just made a connection there!) set. We see their jealousy and overall bitchiness before they get fake and smile for the promo poster.

I bet Farrah told Jaclyn Smith to go fuck herself right before she smiled for the camera and forgot her nipple was peaking out. Now imagine if there was a psibolt involved.

Although I'd imagine that Farrah Fawcett's psibolts wouldn't do all that much damage.
 
 
Seth
18:28 / 08.04.03
Stone: That's your answer to everything.

How many times do you have to be told? The Chasing Amy solution never works.
 
 
Quireboy
20:20 / 08.04.03
The Dark Phoenix saga was late 70s. But if this is going to be a psychic catfight with claws, I'd expect it to be more in the Dynasty Alexis vs Krystal shoulder pad bitch-slapping mold - albeit tongue in cheek.

I mean strip away the Phoenix element and the superpowers and the psychic affair is sooo daytime soap - as was the evil twin coming back for revenge from the dead, etc, etc...

If I remember rightly most of the Krystal/Alexis scraps were over Blake - Krystal's husband and Alexis' ex-husband - and goody two-shoes Krystal - the physically stronger of the two - always came out on top in the end with Alexis inevitably left looking ridiculous - usually half-drowned in a pool.

I'm not going to dare predict a similar outcome of the psychic catfight - but if you take the Dynasty model, Emma would try to undermine and provoke Jean with bitchy comments about her marriage then Jean would firmly put her in her place. Emma being further humiliated - or faced with her own weaknesses - would continue her characterisation in the Riot arc.

Hard to know how Morrison's going to play this fight. Will it follow the model of psychic confrontations in NXM so far - which are clashes of ideology as much as displays of psychic power? Or do the old costumes mean that Grant's going to play on fanboy fetishes? If the two women end up ripping each others clothes off Dynasty-style then I'm sure that will realise many fanboys' wet dreams.

The murder's the spanner in the works here that makes me hesitant to predict what will happen. We know that Scott is soon to suffer a breakdown and that the X-MEN are due to have a big male bonding session, supposedly after some tragedy. And the team is to take on Weapon Plus. It seems reasonable to deduce from this that Jean either leaves Scott - and the Institute, hence no one opposes the more aggressive approach - or is somehow killed; or that Emma is killed and Jean leaves - though she's not the murderer. That does seem a bit too obvious though and would have to be handled well to avoid being OTT.

However, I seem to recall that Jean and Hank make a discovery, either next issue or in 140, that will change everything. Now that could be the murder victim - or it could be something that provokes the attack on Weapon Plus - e.g. a link with Kick - (or, of course, the two could be the same). Then again it could be something about secondary mutations.

Anyone got some better guesses?
 
 
Quimper
20:40 / 08.04.03
We shouldn't forget two things about those who are involved in the attack on Weapon Plus. One, Fantomex will be there. Does he show up at the mansion by the end of the arc? Does HE kill someone in the mansion who was somehow linked to the Weapon Plus programme? Rictor? His invulnerability to Weapon XII was never really touched upon. Two, Beast is not mentioned in the assault team of Scott, Logan and Fantomex. However, while it is plausible, I do not think Beast will be killed in the next arc, despite his playing with sociological fire. I am still waiting for the mustachioed couple he saved to go to The Advocate or Out with Beast as the new gay icon—Hank McCoy does Midler and Streisand.

I think Jean is going to leave Scott, only to become the uninhibited spirit that Scott wants her to be. Ironically, though, it may be their breakup that makes her the ideal—and untouchable—mate for the new Scott Summers. An irony that will drive him mad...HA HA HA! But I think Emma will dump him too, either because she forges some kind of connection with Jean, or because it\'s no fun anymore now that they got caught.
 
 
Quireboy
21:47 / 08.04.03
Hmm well Beast's death has long been speculated upon. He's a mutant and pretending to be gay - so he's an obvious target. I fogot he wasn't mentioned in previews to Weapon Plus.

Back to Jean it does seem likely that she'll leave prior to that Arc, after all she's the only one to see through Fantomex so far. Unless of course she leaves WITH Fantomex in the murder arc...
 
 
Aertho
13:08 / 09.04.03
Fantomex is some kind of uber-telepath or something. I almost thought he was a Weapon Plus Program clone of Xavier... but that's very non-Grant.
 
 
petar_g
14:36 / 09.04.03

Quimper made some excellent points about Fantomex's upcoming appearance, and what I thought was a throwaway reference to Rictor's invulnerability towards Weapon XII. It would be great to see the storyline played that way.

Re: Beast, he will actually be making a guest appearance in NEW MUTANTS after "Murder at the Mansion", so I'm assuming by that he won't be taking the long nap in the immediate future.

Hope that helps,

Petar
 
 
Quireboy
17:04 / 09.04.03
Hmm. I don't think that Fantomex is a telepath. If he has any psi powers, it seems more likely he's a reality warper - or perhaps if his ship Eva is really part of his power and not an illusion - a virtual reality warper. Morrison has said that Proteus was his favourite villian, so that sort of power would make sense.

I don't understand why Fantomex would kill Rictor though - Rictor was immune to Weapon XII - who is now dead. The only person to have caught a glimpse of the real Fantomex is Phoenix. But, with regards to Jean, I got the impression he was playing the role of the trickster during her Qabalic crossing of the abyss rather than her murderer.
 
 
glassonion
17:43 / 09.04.03
it's a ship with a man, not a man with a ship.
 
 
The Falcon
17:59 / 09.04.03
Hmmm, maybe...

'Our minds are leaking...' I think he and his immediate environment may be comprised of several billion sentinel nanomachines, ergo the house and flying saucer. Bit of a Sharon Jones-connection, too.
 
 
Mike-O
19:28 / 09.04.03
Just saw the preview....oh damn... Jimenez is a far cry from Quitely. That opening panel don't look so good... I mena, it's alright... but I was just expecting a little more, you know?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:36 / 09.04.03
Preview where art thou?
 
 
Optimistic
20:52 / 09.04.03
(preview)

Hope that's right. Doesn't look it but I copied it from the address bar so it should.

Preview looks pretty good. It's fair to say that Jiminez isn't Quitely but I think that's true of a lot of artists. Quitely's in a league of his own. However, I do like Jiminez, I'm looking forward to his work on this issue. I don't think the book will suffer from a drop in quality, art-wise, like it has in the past.
 
 
Quireboy
21:55 / 09.04.03
OK, so it's not Quitely but it's still pretty good.

From the preview pic of Emma at the top I'm guessing this IS going to be a character assassination of the White Queen - with Jean forcing her to face her demons at last. (Although the scenes in the background are slightly confusing - is that jean on the floor, Emma and Jean scrapping, or images of some of Emma's dead students?)

Most of the telepathic confrontations in NXM have involved stripping away or seeing through the image a character projects, this could well prove the deconstruction of the White Queen.

I like how Jean incinerated Scott's psiform.

Interesting comment by Xavier - will he intervene?

And who's that in the laboratory with Hank ... with the lead piping ... it's bloody Cluedo!
 
 
Quireboy
23:10 / 09.04.03
Hmm, having looked at the front page of popcultureshock it certainly looks like those are Emma's dead students in the background of the picture where she looks distraught.
 
 
Mike-O
03:40 / 10.04.03
Good call on that, Quireboy. Jimenez has grown on me in the past few hours... may have just been my initial reaction... sorry to seem so ridiculous. His Emma is beautiful.... especially that pic with her dead students behind her... nicely done, I think.
 
 
A
06:20 / 10.04.03
Emma looks like kinda Uma Thurman the way Jimenez draws her.
 
  

Page: 1(2)3456

 
  
Add Your Reply