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SPOILERS: Order of the Phoenix

 
  

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Foust is SO authentic
20:52 / 21.06.03
Why is it that even positive comments about HP don't make me want to read it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:23 / 21.06.03
Because you don't liek the premise?

K-C C - does Potter swoon from his wounds and awaken in the San in the penultimate chapter?
 
 
that
21:27 / 21.06.03
Sigh... is it safe to spoilerise wildly now?

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Poor Sirius. Actually, I thought it dragged dreadfully for big chunks...and angsty-Potter bores me rather. I like my angst a little more sophisticated, with less 'bellowing' and usually I like my prose with less of an Adam's Apple fixation, too...wtf? Over-use also of the word 'repressively'. I can't remember ever having heard anyone say anything 'repressively'...and certainly it does not happen at such an alarming rate.

Snape was too useless for my liking (though not so much as Really Useless Ron - for Christ's sake, the poor kid. I expected Snape to help in a more substantive and communal kind of way though, whereas Ron is now quite obviously a bit of a lost cause), and I can't believe HP still gets away with hating him. Having Potter get all stressed about his evil bastard father, and then forget all about it five minutes later was a bit shit too - any reader who was ever bullied at school will never ever forgive James, and possibly not Sirius or Remus, either. I wonder if JKR banked on that? Poor Snape.

I'm still sorry Sirius is dead, because I liked him (mostly because of the slash, admittedly). Indications if one cares to note them that Sirius and Remus were a couple - like giving HP a joint Christmas present. Not followed through, but that's hardly surprising... ugh, such a headache now. I guess that was the Empire Strikes Back of the Potter books, no?

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Kit-Cat Club
21:29 / 21.06.03
Sadly, no, as that would have been infinitely more effective: he is portkeyed out by Dumbledore and given a not-terribly-shocking piece of info about his background, and then mopes until page 766. She can't do climaxes, really...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:37 / 21.06.03
Chol - saying things repressively is a characteristic of Miss Annersley et al (and one which I find myself emulating reasonably frequently, though usually in fun) and makes me think that JKR might be a True Chalet School Girl...
 
 
that
21:40 / 21.06.03
Ahhh... that might explain it. Am woefully ignorant about the Chalet School.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:20 / 22.06.03
Well, I think this is a complete swiz.

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SB isn't a major character at all. He's a lowering absence in PoA and the spare father figure, halfway between Hagrid (kind, paternal, protective) and Dumbledore (mentory, knew James Potter). I was expecting Hagrid to take the dirt nap and Black to step up to the plate as father figure, and possibly develop into an important character, but right now he hasn't got much more screen time than Diggory did - we've been *told* how glad Harry is to have him about, but only intermittently *shown* why.

Presumably this is changed in OoP, but it's not exactly breaking up the Beatles...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:25 / 22.06.03
There is a little more showing in OoP, though it is supplemented by yet more telling. The sequence set in the Headquarters is the most effective at showing what the bond between Harry and SB is, but for the rest of the book it's mostly telling.

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it looks as if Arthur Weasley is going to cop it, and although he's just as much a minor character that would in some ways have been more interesting - with Ron and Harry both fatherless it might have changed the dynamic of their friendship - made it a bit less 'all right, mate?', which is what it is on the surface... but that is now the stuff of AU fanfic, I suppose.

The death scene itself is quite interesting - no build-up to it, very little aftermath in terms of the fight - which makes it, I suppose, more realistic in some ways, but in terms of the book it's not quite satisfying enough.

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I thought Harry's angst was quite convincing, personally - he's totally wound up in it, so much so that Hermione has to tell him where he's been going worng on Valentine's Day. I mean, HP is not exactly a subtle young man, is he? Clumsy great oaf, in fact, so I thought it fitted quite well.
 
 
that
10:38 / 22.06.03
Do we really have to keep adding spoiler space? Can't we all just assume Spoilers Ahoy from here on in?

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Convincing it might have been, but 766 pages of thick, self-absorbed angsty Potter was also very bloody annoying and headachy...

After it turned out it wasn't going to be Weasley, I assumed that she didn't have the nerve to kill off someone whose death would really shake things up emotionally... but then she went and did it anyway. SB is more sympathetic and *potentially* interesting (again, my impressions of him are slightly skewed by the slash, so...) as a character than most of 'em, IMHO, and his death actually depressed me considerably.

I too found the death scene to be deeply unsatisfying, and I also kind of felt that the death was not exactly integral to the plot - like she was trying to up the stakes by killing someone off, rather than facilitating character/plot development. Because, though it ought to shake stuff up hugely, it probably won't. Obviously, in RL people just conk out for no good reason, but books need a little more structure and sense, methinks.

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Kit-Cat Club
10:53 / 22.06.03
I was going to call off the spoiler hounds tomorrow - but having said that, anyone who's got this far in the thread must surely be aware that it is absolutely riddled with spoilers and can't complain too much if they take it upon themselves to read them.

SPOILER

I suppose part of the reason he cops it though is because of his tendency towards derring-do beyond the bounds of safety, so it is in character... and what it does is to leave HP facing adulthood with no close 'family'... I guess it will become obvious why (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's some sort of growing respect for Snape over the last two books). But I agree that it was poorly handled.

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that
11:17 / 22.06.03

SPOILERS






Respect for Snape has already been far too long in coming, but then I suppose that also fits with Potter's complete lack of awareness of the feelings of others - even when he is essentially peeking into their heads with the Pensieve.

Not sure if Harry really *needed* to lose the rest of his family - just too harsh for my liking, I suppose. I liked Sirius and there were plenty of slashy possibilities with him...I suspect that is why the whole thing bothers me.



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Matthew Fluxington
13:56 / 22.06.03
SPOILERS











I haven't read the thing, and I'll just wait for the movies, but the death of this Sirius Black character seems rather lame to me. I thought it was supposed to be a big deal central character from the way they were playing it up in the press - I've only seen the first two films, and correct me if I'm wrong but this Sirius Black isn't even in those stories, is he? Ugh. In New X-Men terms, this is like killing off Fantomex and pretending that it's a major thing. If this was the Sopranos, it would be like killing off Ralph's morbidly obese pal Vito.
 
 
that
14:03 / 22.06.03
SPOILERS





Flux, that's basically Haus' point, no?

Sirius is in it a little more this time, you find out some stuff about his family history, you glimpse a little bit more of his personality (not all of it good). For me, only Snape's death would have been worse...but, as I've freely admitted, the slash is a large chunk of the reason I am so invested in the character. However, there is not that much subtlety and shading in JKR's people...and Sirius had the potential to be quite interesting, I think. So, I guess it depends on your perspective. Either way, killing off the only person who is sort of 'family' to Harry is a biggish step, even with Mrs. Weasley going on half the time about how harry is like a son to her... so the impact could be said to lie there, the death of the character for who he is in relation to Harry, as opposed to who he *is*, in and of himself...





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Burning Man
17:30 / 22.06.03
Knock Knock?
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Spoilers below
I just finished it today, and man do my eyes hurt. I thouroughly enjoyed the book. I think it was written well, and matches it's audience. I was happy that Harry was angsty and angry all the time. I feel that way constantly whenever I watch the news and think about the mass insanity going on in the world. I want shake people too.

Ok, so it was Sirius Black. BFD. Yes, lets add more pain to Harry. At this point you could have written off anyone and still added the pain of loss to Harry's life. I was thinking that if JK bumped off Herminone Harry and Ron would be right Fucked. I suggest we move past this part and discuss the stealth character development of Neville, which I thought was great, secondly only to the Fred and George Weasley taking off the kid gloves.

Neville comes of age and does battle with the forces of evil. Rock fuckin on!

I enjoyed the big fight at the end, and know that I would love it even more if I were 15 again. Kids going up against the Big Bads and holding their own for while? That was great. I don't really get the Luna chick, but I suspect subsequent readings will bring her more into focus, or not. She seems to radiate quite a zen-like calm around her. No wonder the kids don't get her. She's too advanced.

I'm also glad that JK had Harry use more magic in this book. I was starting to believe he was a little dense.

Overall, it was a great Empire Strikes Back, complete with an active Jedi Order who get to kick ass too.

Oh yeah, I liked the fact that JK really doesn't talk down to her audience, uses the word Damn a few times , and that Dean and Seamus were hustling to get some "firewhiskey" for a party. I wonder if its "Jake Danial's" whiskey.

Flux...I suggest you read them, I think they are pretty good. You know books to movies suck for the most part. Join us, sumbit, fnord, you know you want to.......

Burning Man, out
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:38 / 23.06.03
Hmmph. Fred and George Weasley. Wish fulfilment for anyone still in school.

I don't really get the Luna chick, but I suspect subsequent readings will bring her more into focus, or not.

Erm actually I wondered- Harry Potter's wife to be?

And as for the continued foolishness of Draco Malfoy. Oh, JK, why do you torture me with your petty attitude towards our Slytherin King?
 
 
nedrichards is confused
12:47 / 23.06.03
Look Anna if you can't accept that Weasley is our King then there's no hope for you.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:02 / 23.06.03
Flux...I suggest you read them, I think they are pretty good. You know books to movies suck for the most part. Join us, sumbit, fnord, you know you want to.......

No thank you. My interest in Harry Potter is pretty low (I have a real aversion to magic and mysticism), and it was just enough to get my through two movies. Having the stories concentrated into films is just about the only way I'm willing to give this stuff any time at all.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:59 / 23.06.03
But I do accept it, there's no hope whatsoever! All hail Draco! God love the Slytherins and Severus Snape!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:47 / 23.06.03
OK, it's been out for nearly 72 hours, I think we can chuck the spoilers within the thread now, as devoted fans will either A) have finished it already or B) not be mugs enough to complain if they read spoilers in a thread with 'spoilers' all over it. I will move to amend the title of this thread to make it more screamingly obvious.

The Moderator Has Spoken.

W/r/t Sirius, perhaps it isn't just slash fans who are disappointed - I talked about it today with a friend of mine who was totally unaware that such a thing as slash existed (he is only really interested in homoeroticism in Renaissance sculpture) and he said that he was fed up about it because he really liked SB. He also said, FWIW and w/r/t house elves, that perhaps what JKR is trying to show with them is the internalisation of slavery by oppressed peoples, and thought that an alliance between the peoples represented in the Fountain of Magical Kindred or whatever it was called would be key to defeating Voldemort. Sounded plausible to me...
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
00:48 / 24.06.03
And with a mighty and Hagrid "Aw'right, then" I shall join this fray, having just put the book down completed about ten minutes ago.

I'm not sure what to add about SB, possibly more later, especially after I go through 1-4 again, but I'd like to say a few words about Luna, who, I swear to God, just destroyed me in that final scene with Harry. She was just so sweet and innocent and honest and most of all believing in the genuine goodness of people ("They'll turn up"), such an unwavering belief in wonder (believing all her father's stories), just the image of her putting up the list of her things that every cruel pissant kid had taken from her for a laugh, it was just a truly amazing moment.

This book above all things, was about the characters. There were really amazing emotional notes played with Petunia, Molly Weasely, Dumbledore (!), and Harry's berzerker mode in Dumbledore's office was really well done.

There was a lot less capering in this book and a lot more set up for the next two volumes, and although I felt the need to peek ahead more than any other book previously, I definitely learned more about the PEOPLE in this vivid world than I did about the vivid world itself (which is what 1-4 really centered on, along with all the adventures one can find therein).

I think, above all, Rowling has really found herself as an emotional writer, not just a crafter of tightly woven plots.

And, although I'm sure more will come to me, Fred and George's literal ride off into the sunset was the best send-off in the series yet, totaly kicking the ass of the previous prize-winner: Dobby's Liberation.
 
 
nedrichards is confused
08:17 / 24.06.03
Significantly dealing much more with the whole bullying thing this time, to which I say yay! We've finally got a couple of sympathetic important and vaguely cool main characters who the other kids torment evily. Hopefully, maybe, you never know it may get some budding Crabbe and Goyles to think again. But Most Encouraging Of All is the emergence of Neville Longbottom as a poweful figure, go Neville! I've always been rooting for him and it's a pleasure to see his newfound power in action.
 
 
suds
11:16 / 24.06.03
you guys read bloody fast!
i only finished last night. but i was working full time over the weekend and stuff and i told myself to pace myself and relax and pause after each chapter to digest it all...

ANYWAYS

who else found this book laugh out loud funny in places? i think that's what was missing from "goblet of fire". the weasley twins yelling at umbridge and ron's one-liners. & is it just me or is ron getting sexier? did i say that out loud? and all we got was one kiss on the cheek from hermionie! i thought they'd get it on by now...

benjamin - i know what you mean about luna! she seems lovely and beautiful and mysterious! i also agree what you mean about j.k. rowling as a writer. everyone goes on about the magic and the plot but what i like best is her descriptive prose. unbelievable.
 
 
Mono
11:25 / 24.06.03
okay...i won't beat around the bush...who wants to lend this book to me? no job=no money to spen on dear little harry. if anyo#ne's feeling generous, PM me because i don't want to be spoiled by the spoilers. i will, of course buy pints/cheap eats/whatever for whoever wants to help me out.
 
 
suds
12:26 / 24.06.03
i read some woman on teletext saying that children are going to break their wrists and irreversibly damage their hands because the book weighs 1kg!

mono - i have no problem in mailing you the book...i'll pm you.
 
 
Persephone
04:57 / 25.06.03
Eight hundred in one blow, ugh. Earlier this week I moderated a post that said that Hermione was going to bite it, damn my eyes. So I just rejected that she was okay after she was struck down and then read very glancingly over Sirius's death. It sucks to be Sirius, doesn't it? He gets stuck with the "ruined life" narrative. Bad dog, no redemption.

I wish I had never heard of these books until they had all been written. It's impossible for me to read normally under these conditions.

Ah well, now I can enjoy my summer.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:55 / 27.06.03
I expected to enjoy this book, with reservations. I was sort of whizzing through the opening pages (Dudley, Vernon, blah...) when Rowling dry-gulched me for the first time:

Aunt Petunia is a human being.

She did something right. She was almost... a good person.

And that was it. I was reminded of the thing about Rowling: she's not just another kid's author writing pale escapism. She's smart and just a little bit edgy and she's very, very good. Oh, sure, then we had the continuing collapse of the simple wizarding world, the corruption of the Ministry and a Free Press where the truth only gets printed in the kind of magazine which is the Potter-equivalent of the Daily Sport or the Fortean Times... But she showed her class right there, right then.

If I have a problem it's that the reveal - Harry and Dumbledore - doesn't seem revealing enough. Maybe that's not all there is to it - in which case, fine.

Oh, and the adults' continuing inability to tell the kids the truth. But that's par for the course in children's books - and, come to think of it, in the real world, too.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:21 / 27.06.03
Bravo Nick! In total agreement. I too would have barely anything negative to say about 700+ page fifth volume of a much hyped series, which I find bloody remarkable. Respect to that fine woman and earnest thanks for giving me such pleasure over the days the book filled. Several satisfying shifts in perception of some shibboleths and I like this angrier, less sugary Harry.

I would have said Sirius was a major character. There has been the longing building over several books, on the part of him and Harry both, for what they might find with each other that neither had previously had more than a taste of, and neither was able to explore in the present because there was always a greater priority and too many physical impediments. Much of the sadness was for what might have been rather than what was. This is how the world is, kids.

I thought Rowling's toying with our expectations as it seemed it might be Professor McGonagall, then Hermione, then Ron, then Neville, was well judged. Ganesh, like Persephone, through mod duties, had had to read more than he wished to know and didn't let the cat out of my bag, Sweetie. I was so-o-o relieved it wasn't Ron but there will be no counting our chickens with the next two books, I fear.

My twelve year old niece loved it too. The eight year old gave up half way and took up Captain Underpants and the Problem of Professor Poopypants instead. Think I'll try it next. I need something to fill the Potter-shaped gap in my leisure time.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:27 / 28.06.03
Can I just point out that I'm liable to develop a monster crush on Tonks?
 
 
that
20:27 / 12.07.03
I'm dragging this thread up again because I'm still...I dunno, like...embarrassingly...grief-stricken over Sirius. And I know that's a bit weird (please bear in mind I've been a bit funny since I came off my pills). But I was wondering if anyone else felt similarly? I mean - it's just so shite - shite for Harry (all on his own, again, never having worked out the dynamics of his relationship with Sirius, forever having to bear his status as James' replacement), shite for Remus (just when they were getting the chance to mend their relationship - and he's the only one left now, basically, poor fucker), shite for poor Sirius himself (13 years in Azkaban, then locked up in Grimmauld Place, then just dead)... I mean, even with the possibility of life after death and all that bollocks, as is hinted at by Luna and Nearly Headless Nick...well, you know, it's still really grim, entirely, thoroughly, impressively depressing. So, yes, I'm impressed. JKR must be doing something right if I'm still thinking about it a few weeks later and it's actually painful to do so. Kudos to Ms. Rowling. Mm.

Am I all on my own here?
 
 
Persephone
02:48 / 13.07.03
If I thought about it, I could get very upset. The ruined life narrative. Because it sometimes happens that way. It's not what I really wanted out of Harry Potter, though. But what I really didn't like was that she diminished him all through the book. before she killed him. Why? To lessen the impact of his death? Because say Sirius was developing into a really useful character & then was struck down, that would have been a blow. To have him moldering in his house and being mean to his house-elf, then just snuffed out... it just struck me as nihilistic, in a way. So I'm responding with stoicism --which isn't that much fun, but keeps me from getting hurt.
 
 
that
06:46 / 13.07.03
I know what you mean. It wasn't what I wanted out of Harry Potter, either (war, death, teenage angst - none of these things I really *wanted* from the Potter books, I admit)...but I guess you have to take what you get or stop reading. It was an awfully cruel fate (sadistic was the word that sprang to mind to describe JKR's actions here, but nihilistic is probably better for the overall tone). I did wish at first that she hadn't decided to be so damned severe with the characters, because then the book would have been more *fun*, but I can't deny that she's had an effect. And, as she's gone the misery route and there's nowt any of us can do about it, at least it's well done.

I think Sirius was quite...human. Believably flawed. Not terribly nice, in a lot of ways, but so damaged... so, I'm not sure I agree -his 'diminishment' fit in with his character and the situation, and for sheer emotional impact, and genuine and surprising *uncomfortableness*, she couldn't have done it much better.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:48 / 13.07.03
My take on this is that the waste of Sirius' life is actually what makes his death more poignant - and that that's what makes it work (though I still think it was a bit too throwaway to be successful in terms of the book's structure). You know - this great wizarding talent and animagus, thrown into Azkaban for a crime which he did not commit, and though his strength of mind carried him through that experience with less damage than most other prisoners of Azkaban, his development was effectively arrested - so he's still the same impulsive, attractive, daredevil character that he was when he went in. He hasn't had a chance to mature, and that's why he finds it hard to distinguish between James Potter and Harry. Presumably this is also partly why he is kept cooped up in Grimmauld Place, though that's something that Harry can't quite comprehend. And it's also why he dies - he's being deliberately reckless in his final battle, taunting Bellatrix like that. I think it's a waste of his life, but not really a waste of a character (in terms of the books, rather than for the fans, obviously). Yes, it leaves Harry alone again; but it's also a warning to him in some ways - of the necessity of some caution and maturity (which he also does not display in his dealings with Snape, for example, and look at the results of that). Frustrating, because who wants to listen to stuffy, careful old so-and-sos like Dumbledore who keep you in the dark... but Dumbledore's admission of his fault at the end perhaps indicates that the series might not be espousing the traditional 'authority knows best' school story theme which it initially seemed to propound. It'll be interesting to see which way the balance tips.
 
 
that
09:51 / 13.07.03
My take on this is that the waste of Sirius' life is actually what makes his death more poignant

I definitely agree with that...
 
 
Persephone
00:42 / 14.07.03
I can see what you're saying. I really was imagining Rowling as unhelpfully trying to make her readers feel not as bad about Sirius being marked for death ("no worries, he was ruined anyway"). That was probably not fair on my part. But if this was a competent choice on her part... aagh, I just wasn't expecting hard realism from a book about a boy wizard! I don't half mind the tragedy as much as I do mind Sirius being denied any sort of redemption.

but I guess you have to take what you get or stop reading

I agree, I really do... I mean, you could substitute "living" for "reading" and you would have my basic philosophy for staying alive. But again, reading is not living & thank god, at least you can stop reading...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:57 / 17.07.03
Pah, after Sirius died I expected another surprise attack, because I assumed that when Rowling had said she'd cried after killing off a character she couldn't have meant Sirius, if only because of the crapness of his dispatch. And it did all feel a bit like 'New X-Men', 'this issue, a beloved character DIES!' 'Oh wait, it's just one of the cuckoos!'.

What most browned me off was the oh so important talk at the end between Dumbledore and Harry. And what important information do we learn? That he and Voldemort are mortal enemies, that they will fight and one will live and one will die, and that the shared blood between his Mum and Aunt Petunia is what keeps him safe at home. The last point does justify why Dumbledore is happy to send him back there each summer (and on a sidepoint, the Dursleys are threatened again to look after Harry. That's not had much luck before) but is hardly important.But on the first point, it's rather stating the bleeding obvious. Harry has fought Voldermort four times now, did he think that in the end Voldermort would give up and go off to become an Ibiza DJ? I'm sure that if Voldemort had been succesful in hearing the prophecy about him and Harry he would have said "I've spent the last eight months working my arse off for that? I've been wasting my time!"

Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and the Other One. FUCKING FUCKING FUCKING FUCKING FUCK! This is so bloody tedious! Every year we have the same thing, with Malfoy and co. making a nusiance of themselves in various ways but doing nothing useful to the plot in terms of menace. In the next book I want Malfoy to kill either Ron or Hermione or I want him gone, practically every time he appears the plot slows down so that he and Harry can trade weak insults. It's more tedious than Quiditch. I don't care if in the final book he turns 'good' like Snape, Malfoy merely bores me.

Remind me, what's the difference between a half-blood and a mud-blood? Hermione is a mud-blood because her parents are Muggles, and Harry is a half-blood because his maternal grandparents (at least) were Muggles? Is that right?

Does anyone else suspect that Neville will turn out to be important to destroying Voldermort? Maybe sacrificing himself to deliver the killing blow so Harry doesn't have to?

I notice that despite his promise to tell Harry everything Dumbledore hasn't actually told him anything about his plan for defeating him. It involves giants (I'm sure Hagrid's trip will have reprecussions) and nothing that was set-up at the end of the last book is actually resolved that far here. What worries me is that with two more books to go Rowling will keep stringing us through book six before finally bringing things to a head in book seven.

I did like the fact that though it was a little too long there weren't huge chunks of filling space as with last year. The whole thing with Umbridge was a bit tiresome, did anyone not expect her to take over control of the school?, but did help increase the tension and the thing with the pen was pretty fucked up in a good Roald Dahl kind of way. The two main points this book was advertised on (Dumbledore telling Harry 'everything' and someone dying) were disappointments, but the rest was okay.

Characterisation was pretty much standard with how you feel about Rowling really. The token ethnic minority characters had a little more to do, with obviously Cho having the most. I think Rowling handled the awkwardness between them quite well, especially as Harry is emotionally backward due to his upbringing. It did occur to me that because Hogwarts doesn't teach any normal subjects like home ec, Muggle languages and so on, that anyone that goes through education there has no idea how to live a normal life. So sex education-wise no-one has any idea what goes on! And at last Rowling tries to expand the wizard-universe, as up to last year the job opportunities seemed to be work for the Ministry of Magic, be a teacher, lurk in pubs in Diagon Alley.

All in all then, a pretty good read and better than I expected from Rowling.
 
  

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