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The pedophile debate (subtopic of little girl model post)

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
000
19:53 / 09.09.01
Ganesh Darling, Well Said.
 
 
Ganesh
09:43 / 10.09.01
Firstly, there is no straightforward test - genetic, psychological or 'psychic' - by which one can readily identify a paedophile. As with other aspects of personality, there may well be a genetic component predisposing to paedophilia - but, as with homosexuality, the belief that a single 'on/off' gene is responsible is naive and simplistic. As has been said already, untangling genetic 'loading' from early childhood experiences is difficult in the extreme, and would require long-term prospective studies (like Bowlby's famous Isle of Wight study of attachment). Similarly, attempting to draw general conclusions from single cases - particularly high-profile celebrity cases - doesn't particularly illuminate the situation.

'Brass Eye' satirised the common 'tabloid hysteria' reaction and highlighted the double-standards inherent in the 'sex monster' stereotyping. This lazy, knee-jerk demonising externalises the problem of paedophilia as Other, a lone predatory bogeyman existing (we try to convince ourselves) on the edge of 'civilised' society - and most definitely Not In My Back Yard, thankyou very much. More importantly, it draws fire away from the larger issue of child abuse and muddies any attempt to debate the subject in any sort of rational manner. 'Brass Eye' emphasised (brutally) the need, as a society, to take some measure of responsibility for our choice to sexualise the portrayal of children in the general media: if we allow the likes of kiddie beauty pageants and child starlets, we ought to face up to the consequences and discuss ways to deal with it, rather than make it all Someone Else's Problem.

I agree that there needs to be clarification of what constitutes child pornography and that it's important to root out those who produce and distribute it. I disagree, however, that the problem lies predominantly with The Men At The Top; I think that's just another way of externalising things, albeit from a different, more conspiracy-themed angle. I think we need to acknowledge, as a society, that the bulk of child sexual abuse lies within the family.

I'm not entirely sure how one balances issues of civil freedom with child protection, but here're some personal opinions:

1) The tabloid furore is hugely unhelpful, as is the inflammatory and histrionic 'sex beast' terminology. Bearing in mind that the vast majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by individuals who don't fit the profile for 'exclusive paedophilia', we need to foster a climate in which they a) know that abusing children is utterly wrong, but b) feel able to admit to their sexual desires/impulses and seek guidance without the fear that admitting to it will result in automatic stigmatisation and lynching. After all, if the majority of child sex abusers are not driven primarily by paedophilia, there's perhaps scope for helping them modify their behaviour - especially if they feel able to come forward and seek help before actual physical abuse takes place.

Going a stage further, if someone admits to having already abused a child, there should, ideally, be an attempt to assess and quantify the nature and extent of the abuse in a relatively calm manner (and, crucially, whether whether the individual's abused before). Needless to say, I'm not sure how such a climate could be achieved without accusations that society is somehow 'excusing' child abusers by not immediately stringing them up, etc., etc.

2) The main (some would say only) predictor of future dangerousness is previous offending and, in this context, repeat child abusers should be taken extremely seriously. Individuals who repeatedly molest children are more likely to fit the criteria for 'exclusive paedophiles' and, as such, are likely to be far more resistant to attempts at 'treatment'; the penalties for repeat offending should, therefore, be appropriately harsh, in order to deter these individuals from physically acting on their fantasies (and I'm talking prison sentences along rape/murder lines). Difficult to achieve, I know, but if society could somehow draw a distinction between a) those who merely fantasise, b) 'one-off' perpetrators of child abuse (in those whose circumstances are somehow extenuating - they're severely depressed, say, or borderline learning-disabled) and c) more resistant repeat-offenders, rather than tarring all with the same, indelible 'paedophile' brush, we might better communicate the bottom line that the actual desire itself isn't necessarily a crime, but acting on the desire to have sex with children is absolutely wrong.

3) There will always be those individuals who masturbate over Pampers ads, or whatever - stuff we might call 'incidental' pornography. We need to be clear that this, in itself, is not a crime. Producing material which exploits children sexually, however, is - and we need, as a society, to try to decide where to draw this line. I've no idea how this is to be achieved, but the first aim should be to encourage rational debate on the subject.

The theme underlying all this is the need to hammer home an unequivocal understanding that, while one can fantasise all one likes, actually, physically having sex with a child is wrong and will be punished - but by law rather than by lynch-mob.

So, one episode and the abuser's closely monitored for a while, psychologically, with (depending on the specifics of the situation) an effort being made to help him/her modify the offending behaviour. Two strikes, and (again, obviously depending on individual circumstances, blah blah) they're seen as a repeat offender with much harsher punishment, likely imprisonment.

Naive? Over-general? Impossible to implement? Too much emphasis on 'treatment' and not punitive enough? Too much focus on the management of the offender at the expense of the victim's 'need' for protection or even 'revenge'? Maybe. At least it'd be a start. What do others think?

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh ]
 
 
Ganesh
09:43 / 10.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Laila:
Ganesh Darling, Well Said.


Uh, thankyou. I think.
 
 
Rage
09:43 / 10.09.01
Am I late? Can I jump in? Look what I started. Hehe.

quote:Funny. I've been here a year and I have never actually run across an actual Laila post. Really. I've heard about them, but never actually had the experience.

I feel like I've just seen Bigfoot.


Laughing My Ass Off. I thought that Laila's post was pretty funny, but not as funny as Bone's follow up. Laila was putting words into my mouth and twisting my statements around a bit. Not fair play. I said that pedophilia shouldn't be accepted due to lack of consent of the child, and Laila took this as a pro "pedophilian" (yes, wtf?) statement when it was nothing of that sort. It was the direct opposite, in fact. But somehow Laila decided that I was waving a pedophile pride flag around this board or something. Not to mention the final dance of calling me a pedophile.

Hey, guess what?

I'm a 17 year old chick. You'd be commiting a crime by jacking off to a .gif of my tits.

My post was about how these "scum" who are deeply hurting these children are ALSO deeply hurting due to their alienation. I wasn't talking about who was hurting MORE.

You twisted my shit around, and I became your anger target. Distorted and polarized thinking indeed. What's up with that?

Good job.

But now it seems like everyone is herding you, and I don't want to herd you because I am a non-herder absurder. I'm immature too. (raise the roof!)

To think I consider the possibility that pedophiles might be humans with feelings. I mean... shit! That's WRONG!

Glad you got your energy out though. You must feel empowered!
 
 
Rage
09:43 / 10.09.01
I think I'm too late. Should have checked this post a day or two ago. Damn.

I didn't realize this debate had been had before. Without a resolution.

Maybe this was a mistake. Or maybe a resolution will finally come the second time around. Optimism.
 
 
deletia
09:43 / 10.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Laila:
PE-ADO-PHILIAN MAN-LOVE-CHILD or shortly childlover.
Seriously this is what its suppose to mean according to old documents, the link has been taken out of the air in the beginning of the year, so I can not give you the document.But it was originally in old Latin.


Oh, for the love of Christ.

Paedophilia is derived from the ancient Greek paidos, the genitive form (the form at which the full stem of the noun is used) of pais, a child (boy/girl depending on gender of the preceding article) and philia, love, a noun itself derived from the verb phileo, I love.

Christ knows what you think Old Latin is, but I can't think offhand of any Latin construction that could possibly look like "peadophilian", and mean what you want it to mean, especially due to little things like Latin not having the diphthong "ph" except in words it has borrowed from Ancient Greek.

Not being able to spell or etymologise paedophilia is not a capital crime, but this kind of lazy scholarship does little to advance your claims to be the Noncefinder general.
 
 
Rage
09:43 / 10.09.01
You're all spelling it wrong.

It's

P-E-D-A-F-I-L-E stupids!
 
 
000
09:43 / 10.09.01
quote:by GaneshI disagree, however, that the problem lies predominantly with The Men At The Top; I think that's just another way of externalising things, albeit from a different, more conspiracy-themed angle.
You are right on this one as well. But to be able to do something about this problem, it is necessary for the people to understand that peadophilians are not necessary sick and that the picture of such a man is not just a sick, poor, lonely, filthy sex beast and that the most dangerous peadophilians are men in power as well. Its because of this we can not change the law for in the weirdest way the law protects them, all the way into prison. In Holland there is a row going on about child sex offenders, and I am talking those who repeatedly have raped and killed little children.
They have been receiving well-fair (according to unemployment) money from the government all the years that they are in prison. Example who gets this money in Holland Michel S. a 3 fold child killer and child rapist, martin W. he raped a little girl was send to jail, then he got out on leave and immediately raped another girl age 12 on that same day, got back in jail and then got out again and raped a little boy age 8, and got back into jail. From the beginning until now he amongst others have been getting money from the state. The money all these people have bee receiving ( thiefs and so on did not get this money) have been hundred thousands a head. Now who is responsible for this? The minister of justice, his name is Korthals. He wrote a letter to parents from a 7 year old boy who was raped and killed and who found out that these people receive such high monthly income while being in jail, they wanted this to be stopped. The minister wrote to them that its not a; wished for, b; politically incorrect and c; politically unwished for. We don’t have any proof that he is a peadophilian ( yet) , but insiders know he is and as long as we don’t have proof we can not do anything. It’s the men in politic who can change things in one day if they wished to but needless to say, this would not serve their ‘needs’. To change something at the bottom we need to change the law that is been made at the top of the pyramid.
quote:I think we need to acknowledge, as a society, that the bulk of child sexual abuse lies within the family
AMEN! And absolutely. But we need to acknowledge as well that as long as we cant change the laws concerning peadophilia we can not change the abuse in the family. We need openness and we need to be more confronting and telling about what happens to a persons body and mind when being abused as a child. We need to listen to the story of the child and not to the story of his/her abuser. We need to show faces. We need to connect the flaws in society with this. The kings of child abuse wear the crown of peadophili.
quote: by GaneshNaive? Over-general? Impossible to implement? Too much emphasis on 'treatment' and not punitive enough? Too much focus on the management of the offender at the expense of the victim's 'need' for protection or even 'revenge'? Maybe. At least it'd be a start. What do others think?
Its not naïve, if we acknowledge the problem.
So lets say we here at barb would be judges and we have to make new laws that satisfy every body here including me. Lets say , you are reason, doubt and disbelieve. I am revenge and my judgement is clouded with pain so I don’t listen to reason. Now if we can bring my world together with these other worlds we have scenario.
I give you examples ( this can be very graphic and to most even way to absurd and unbelievable) of what child abuse means and if there are others on this board who have been abused as a child who dear to speak open and share the fear they felt, or know stories about others they know, we have a good picture of what child abuse means and does. And according to these examples we play trail, and come with sentences.
How about it? Do we wait for politics to change the law? Or do we make a new law in name of the ‘people’ and collect signatures and contact a news paper to present this plan of the people who demand safety for the children and as such create a better future for all, and our society. Sounds silly? Maybe but its possible. The men in charge will never change anything, if any they have made it worse and with Bush in charge it has gotten worse. If we, the people, want things to change , we the people have to take action ourselves, and this action needs to be in the language they speak, we need to combine the language of law, politics and of the people to come together, remember the real power does not lay in the hands of a few, but in the hands of the masses, if we can all come to one taught. Now, we are divided in groups that represent pain, anger, revenge, fear, doubt, reason and disbelieve.
Again Ganesh Well SAID. Sincerely N.
 
 
000
09:43 / 10.09.01
quote: by The Haus of Willow Not being able to spell or etymologise paedophilia is not a capital crime, but this kind of lazy scholarship does little to advance your claims to be the Noncefinder general.
No that is not true, have you any idea how hard it is to keep reminding myself to write it wrong? I have been waiting for somebody to come with the explanation of the meaning of this word and when it did not came I put my little post and now somebody has, thank you.
 
 
Ganesh
09:43 / 10.09.01
Bloody hell, Laila, I'm getting the distinct impression that, beneath the mutual rhetoric, we actually agree on much of this. Now, that's weird...

 
 
000
09:43 / 10.09.01
quote: by Rage Not to mention the final dance of calling me a pedophile.
I did Not call you a peadophilian. I asked you why did you start this tread for real? This is because I am very much interested in the way youngsters think about this issue, for the simplest fact that the future lays within the mind of youngsters.
quote:Why did you start this tread for real? You said “I've been wanting to have this debate for a while, actually.” Why? You are advocating in the weirdest way the safety of peadophilians, you are concerned about the well being of peadophilians hardly mentioning the children who suffer tremendously every day until they are to old or until they are dead.

quote:Who the fuck cares about how alienated peadophilians feel? Except peadophilians .
I did not accuse you, I stated who cares about this except peadophilians. I don’t see your name any were in that line. Do you?
Only peadophilians care about this, they don’t want to be alienated. For ages they have tried to get the people to find this sexual act between a child and an adult normal. Look at society, finally for them, everything is heading that way. Kiddy porn, kiddy music, kids as fashion models, future minded ads and kids, kids labour, movies with old actors and very young teenage girls. Stories that are more frequently coming in the mainstream media saying that children are sexual beings and that they have a sexual world and that they have sexual feelings as well. Lowering the age of child labour and giving them so called rights in politics, makes a child mature in the eyes of the people. Saying that a girl is a women as soon as she menstruates is also very misleading. Especially considering the fact that as young as 5 years they are menstruating in our time and that the average age is 8 years ( due to hormones in our foods and due to abundance of food). Menstruation means that the body of the girl is changing to maturity. And not that she is now a woman. Example in Holland their has been a case of a Muslim man age around 50 who got married to a 8 year old little girl, according to their religion a man can marry a women as soon as she gets her period. Needless to say that there has been a fight and demand from the people working in this field, to declare this marriage illegal. In to the mainstream news and out the same day, with comments stating that politics can not and will not interfere with religion. If you give a child rights especially the same rights as grownups, than you make them become mature at a younger age legally, even that they are body and mind wise still a child. So if a child can be considered mature at the age of 14 than its not absurd for the child to have sex before that age. Think of it, we are supposed to be legally mature as of 21, but most of us have sex way before that age. So if its legal for a child to work as of 14 the next step will be voting rights as of that age, talks have been already about making it possible for children to be able to vote as of 16 years old. Working legally used to be 16 years, so voting plans as of that age follows and now they have managed to lower the age to 14 years, these voting plans as of 16 have become deadly serious. With all this going on and the talk about children being sexual beings, the age of when its normal to have sex has lowered as well, and with all the input trough movies ( Manga films etc) and especially video games and hormones in our foods, children find it normal to have sex as of 12 years old. Now this being the case a story that tells of sexual abuse of a child of 8 is not that shocking or eye opener.

quote: by Rage Hey, guess what? I'm a 17 year old chick. You'd be commiting a crime by jacking off to a .gif of my tits
He guess what? I made a bet that your age could be no more than 18 and yes it would be crime.
quote: Laila was putting words into my mouth and twisting my statements around a bit. Not fair play
Just imagine what would happen if you would be talking to a peadophile, at the end he would have changed your words in such ways that it would look to others as if you agree. I did not twisted your words around I was merely showing you how your words can be used.
quote: You twisted my shit around, and I became your anger target. Distorted and polarized thinking indeed. What's up with that?
No thanks, you did not become my anger target, don’t flatter yourself.
quote:To think I consider the possibility that pedophiles might be humans with feelings. I mean... shit! That's WRONG!
quote:Pedophiles need their community just like we do.
quote: Let them have their pictures. Let them have an underground network of sexual desire and community on the internet. What ELSE do they have, but society telling them that they are sick perverts? Society from the right and middle and the left. Do you know how ALIENATED they must feel?
So what sort of feelings, then, are you talking about?
I am not attacking you at all, I know what you mean and I believe you.
quote:I didn't realize this debate had been had before. Without a resolution.
it was not about finding a resolution, it was more about opening minds to the absurd and some fun as well.
quote:Maybe this was a mistake. Or maybe a resolution will finally come the second time around. Optimism
No this was not a mistake it was and is a good idea. And this time it will be possible to come to a resolution. Optimism? maybe but its worth trying.
Again Rage I did not accuse you of being a peadophilian and feelings of empowerment I do not seek trough ‘attacking’ a minor.
 
 
Ganesh
09:39 / 11.09.01
Rare as it might seem for me to side with her ( ) I actually don't think Laila was accusing Rage of paedophilia here. Inquiring somewhat aggressively as to her motives, sure, but not making a direct accusation.

Going back to Rage's initial posting, I realised I hadn't really answered her points:

quote:Originally posted by Rage:
Pedophiles need their community just like we do.

...

But here we're talking about the pedophile picture swappers, who are merely exchanging pictures with other individuals who share their sexual desires. The pedophile picture swappers who realize that they can't rape some little kid... no matter how much they desire to... because it's wrong.

Let them have their pictures. Let them have an underground network of sexual desire and community on the internet. What ELSE do they have, but society telling them that they are sick perverts? Society from the right and middle and the left. Do you know how ALIENATED they must feel?


I can see where you're coming from, Rage, and I agree that it's important to avoid 'sex monster' stereotyping. However good one's intentions, however, I think it's naive to suggest we encourage the growth of online 'paedophile communities'.

Kennedy & Grubin, in 1992, noted the general lack of insight, amongst 'exclusive paedophiles', of what constitutes a normal adult/child relationship. In fact, both intra- and extra-familial abusers displayed distorted perceptions and attitudes in this regard: a father or stepfather would report that he only acted out of love for the child; the child loved him above all others; the child acquiesced, encouraged or even demanded increasing sexual contact; the child enjoyed it; he was just educating the child in sexual matters and was doing nothing wrong; the child suffered no physical or psychological damage. These views were maintained even when contradicted by the facts of the relationship; denial or minimisation of abusive behaviour were common findings.

Given that there seems to be such a powerful drive, amongst paedophiles in general, to 'rationalise' (and, in doing so, 'excuse') their abusive behaviour, it seems unlikely that any 'community' of such individuals would confine its activities to 'harmless' picture-swapping alone. As I've said, the Internet provides an ideal forum for such minority groups to meet and bond, to establish a shared mindset that 'it's okay really, the rest of the world's overreacting'. This, in turn, is likely to lower paedophiles' thresholds for acting out their fantasies.

I agree that, as a group, they seem damned to fantasise about that which they can never actualise, but that's just the way it is. Paedophiles should be allowed to live peacefully within society on the condition that they never act out their desires - it cannot be otherwise. Allowing paedophiles to form 'communities', ghettoes, networks, clubs, exchanges would, in my opinion, be asking for trouble...
 
 
000
09:39 / 11.09.01
Ganesh lets get married ( = compliment)
As I said before I am anger you are reason.
 
 
Ganesh
12:22 / 11.09.01
Fuck. Me and Laila agree on something and the End Times commence...

 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:44 / 11.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
Fuck. Me and Laila agree on something and the End Times commence...


...and look what happened!
 
 
Rage
16:21 / 11.09.01
Wow.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
17:16 / 11.09.01
Taking back and ingesting my earlier words as we speak...
 
 
Molly Shortcake
02:39 / 12.09.01
Originally posted by Laila

quote:I asked you why did you start this tread for real? This is because I am very much interested in the way youngsters think about this issue, for the simplest fact that the future lays within the mind of youngsters.

She's a Velvet Acid Christ fan. This is typical behavior.
 
 
Rage
11:16 / 12.09.01
Hehe. You think you have me all figured out.

Ok, Laila. Here's your answer. I started this thread because I wanted to talk about this shit. Why else would I start this thread?

I think you got a little too pissed off at my initial post, and took this out in a manner that was very harsh. I was just stating my opinion. Pedophiles have feelings, whether you want to admit that or not. They're human. They're hated by practically everyone for something they don't choose. That's all.

It's cool though. I don't want to argue with you. I'm not in that type of mood now. I'll need to be in an arguing mood to argue. I'm in a "peace" mood now. Peace, sister. Love and happiness too.

Wanna dance in fields of daisies with me?
 
 
w1rebaby
09:00 / 13.09.01
ganesh, never agree with laila again, okay?
 
 
cusm
14:11 / 07.06.02
Interesting. I missed this shit fest the first time around.

I'll have the say the item that interests me is the idea that the pedophile can not control or help that he is attracted to children sexually. I have problems with this concept. There is a school of thought that one desires and preferences are set in stone by some higher power and are beyond the reach of the individual. You are who you are, and that's just that. Its like saying that the Pedophile likes to fuck little boys because God made him that way. Sorry, that's a justification, not an explaination.

I believe the human psyche is an inherently mutable and flexible system that can be shaped, changed, and reprogrammed with effort. Were it not, the practice of psychology would be rather useless, wouldn't it? I'll let that body of evidence speak for itself.

As a mutable system, one can change one's self, even unto ones primary programming. That is the very gift of sentience. If one discoveres that one likes to fuck little boys, one has a choice to make. One can accept and revel in this, form support groups, and generally try to justify it so as to allow it to continue. Or, one can realize this is vile, and strive to change it. One has to look deep within one's self to understand why it is one is associating sexual attraction with a non-sexual object, discover the reasons for this, and work to reassociate those things to a different outlet. For example, if its the androgieny of youth, find a waify goth to go at it with. If its the thrill of perversity and forbiddenness of it, then grow a conscious you sick sociopathic fuck.

Either way sexual attraction can be changed, just like any other element of the psyche. As evidence, I have my own experience, where I as an hetersexual decided it would be more fun to be bi (it was also a challenge to test my abilities, give my self a Turing test. I figured that was a good place to start), and as a magickal exercise (magickal in this sense meaning self applies psycholgical reprogramming initiated by my will) reprogrammed how I view gender. Now, what excites me sexually is not the specific gender, but rather the quality of it. I like pretty people. I have learned to be attracted to male sexuality as well as female. I was not born this way, I learned it. I therefore pass my Turing test. If I can do it, it is therefore possible, and so I at least will take the opinion that a socially inexcusable condition such as pedophilia can and should be corrected. If it is not, it is due only to the weakness of the individual, be it a weakness of ethics or ability.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:48 / 08.06.02
I think it's entirely plausible that there might be individuals who for whatever reason are only able to get sexually stimulated by children. Certainly sexuality is a strange enough thing that people can find themselves only able to reach sexual climax via fetishes, humiliation or by wearing the underwear of a different gender. Whether or not it makes sense to ascribe these 'needs' or 'urges' to 'nature' or 'nurture', that doesn't make it any less permanent, irreversible or implicitly part of an individual.

Speaking as a gay man - whatever that means - clearly I would not wish to start associating homosexuality with paedophilia. But while attempts have been made to make gay people straight (through torturous and universally disasterous hormone and electroshock techniques), no one has ever tried to make straight people gay - so we have no comparison that CAN be made.

It seems to me unlikely that an urge embedded so deeply within one that meant one was actaulyl CAPABLE of raping a child could be removed via therapy. More likely the individual concerned might be made more able to deal with the implications of their desires and control them. Morality has very little to do with this, I fear. Any more than morality stops bacteria killing children.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:19 / 08.06.02
I've just been reading an extremely interesting/disturbing (at various points) conversation on the Coil mailing list- basically, without going into the whole bitchy argument it turned into, somebody claimed their consensual (which they did stress) experiences as a minor with an adult were entirely that. Consensual. And that twenty years on, that was still their deal with what had happened to them.

Fair enough, thought I. A bit weird, but there you go.

However- it then turned into a big shitfight. People using the argument that "look. it's dumb to think you suddenly develop sexual maturity at the legal age for whatever country you're in" (which, let's face it, it is) to justify the theory that- as the age of sexuality is so nebulous, why shouldn't it be 6 or whatever?

At which point I (who only read, never post, on said list- mainly cos it's always a fight) thought- WHOAH there man! Just because YOU thought it was OK when you were a kid, and with the benefit of hindsight STILL think that, doesn't mean that's always gonna be the case, now, does it?

I was reminded of a friend I had (from when I was about 13 to 18) who was about 26 when I first met him, and used to come round to my house every day... we were best mates. That was all it was. I'd play records at him, he'd bring horror movies... that was the deal. And that was the ENTIRE deal.

Then one day (when I was about 17- he'd have been about 29?) he came round in tears. He'd been busted for a relationship he'd been having with a 15-year old boy. This was news to me.

I had to give evidence. I'd been friends with this guy for years, he'd never laid a finger on me or given the slightest sign of having wanted to. Which is what I said in court. To be honest, I wanted to- and still want to- believe his story. That the kid (who wasn't stupid, but was still legally underage) had instigated it. I'm not sure I do believe it, but I'd like to. I'm still not sure whether that would make it right- nor am I sure that he'd have been quite as ostracised afterwards had it been a 15-year old girl.

I kind of lost touch with him a while after I moved to London- wasn't a deliberate thing, it just happened.

I'm still not entirely sure of my opinion on that entire matter.

Part of me thinks "I hope he's OK and has justified my faith in him by not molesting children etc..."... another part of me (the one that really frightens me) is saying "I hope the News of the fucking World or somebody don't decide to trawl back through records and have him burned by an angry mob".

Not really sure what I was saying with that anecdote, but it's not one I tell very often, so have it as it stands.
 
 
Tom Coates
15:38 / 08.06.02
I think it's a very useful story. It seems to me entirely possible that someone under the age of consent can have a consensual relationship / sex with someone over the age of consent - even by quite a way. Whether or not it is legally consensual is another matter completely.

I had a relationship with a 17 year old guy when I was in my early twenties. Because of the disparities in the age of consent in the UK I was strictly speaking doing something illegal. The fact that he instigated it, that it would have been legal had one of he or I been a woman, that actually I didn't *know* his age etc made it something that ethically I had no problem with. He'd slept with many people the same age as him, older and younger and none of those had been a problem. But at that stage the law really isn't there to stop people of that age having sex (what happens to the couple who have their 16th birthdays three months apart), but to put more protection on young people because they are overly vulnerable to exploitation.

There is a line in the sand here somewhere - unfortunately it's one that's defined by whether the police decide to bring charges rather than on what's 'morally right' - because over a certain age, it's very difficult to tell what's appropriate for that individual...
 
 
Ganesh
15:47 / 08.06.02
Cusm: interesting story but, as with Laila's viewpoint, largely anecdotal and not backed up by any wider body of evidence. Even those paedophilic individuals motivated enough to engage with therapeutic programmes (including medication, intensive psychotherapy, etc.) are generally unable to alter their basic desires. At best, they become more able to suppress, displace or redirect them. As Tom says, broadly analogous attempts to 'de-gay' people have proved similarly unsuccessful.

As far as ages of consent go, I think it's fairly obvious that anything legally-defined would be largely arbitrary. Some young people are gonna be (physically and psychologically) mature enough to consent to sex before that; some aren't. Point is, as things stand, anyone below 18 is legally unable to consent, whether you reckon they're mature enough or not.
 
 
Turk
04:20 / 09.06.02
"I'll have the say the item that interests me is the idea that the pedophile can not control or help that he is attracted to children sexually. I have problems with this concept. There is a school of thought that one desires and preferences are set in stone by some higher power and are beyond the reach of the individual. You are who you are, and that's just that. Its like saying that the Pedophile likes to fuck little boys because God made him that way. Sorry, that's a justification, not an explaination.

I believe the human psyche is an inherently mutable and flexible system that can be shaped, changed, and reprogrammed with effort. Were it not, the practice of psychology would be rather useless, wouldn't it? I'll let that body of evidence speak for itself.

As a mutable system, one can change one's self, even unto ones primary programming. That is the very gift of sentience. If one discoveres that one likes to fuck little boys, one has a choice to make. One can accept and revel in this, form support groups, and generally try to justify it so as to allow it to continue. Or, one can realize this is vile, and strive to change it. One has to look deep within one's self to understand why it is one is associating sexual attraction with a non-sexual object, discover the reasons for this, and work to reassociate those things to a different outlet. For example, if its the androgieny of youth, find a waify goth to go at it with. If its the thrill of perversity and forbiddenness of it, then grow a conscious you sick sociopathic fuck."




Absolute bull-twoddle, shit, crap, nonsense, wrong, wrong, wrong.
 
 
Tom Coates
08:17 / 09.06.02
Ganesh (your post)- that's everyone under sixteen, surely? In the UK at least.
 
 
Ganesh
14:12 / 09.06.02
Yeah.
 
 
alas
15:41 / 09.06.02
premise set #1: desire, all desire, is socially constructed. therefore it is inextricable from the culture in which it arises.
premise set #2: as a culture (broadly interpreted, especially applicable to US pop culture, however) we worship and demonize youth. as a culture, we worship and demonize sexuality. we desire both youth and sex, and fear both youth and sex. we can't really fully control either.

now, I'm not going to assert any simple syllogism, here, because it would be full of logical holes etc., but it seems to me, that if both my premises have some degree of legitimacy, then we have created a recipe which, if you mix all ingredients and bake at 350 degrees for a couple of millenia, it should not be surprising that you open up the oven and discover both paedophilia and the Lailas of the world baking quite nicely, but that no toothpick will ever come out clean when poked in the middle of their loaves.

I'm not sure how much agency we have in relation to anything, let alone sexuality. I'm sure that when we start talking biology, we are still in the realm of culture, because biology is a cultural discourse, inextricable from the scientistic, rationalistic culture that produced it. I also believe that somehow paedophiles serve some cultural functions for our culture, and i strongly suspect that the real problem is likely to be something that is within most of us "good people" rather than "out there" in paedophiles, which seem to be the sexual equivalents of terrorists (re: the sept 11 references in the previous discussion).
 
 
Ganesh
16:44 / 09.06.02
I don't think all "desire" is socially constructed - not 100%, anyway. Sexuality (which, I grant you, is not the same thing as desire) appears to include a 'hardwired' (for want of a better term) component. There's compelling - if confusing - evidence from research into transsexuality (and, to some extent, homosexuality) that pre-natal hormonal factors play a large part in influencing one's perceptions of gender and gender/sexual behaviour. It's not a huge logical step to suppose that other, more esoteric 'disorders of sexual object' (and yes, I'm aware that transsexuality might more reasonably be viewed as a 'disorder of subject') might combine environmental, societal and 'biological' elements in a similarly complex fashion.

I'm in total agreement that the media construct of The Paedophile serves a particular function within society - and that externalising the phenomenon is seductive but ultimately unhelpful. I've always maintained - and continue to maintain - that banally-destructive common-or-garden sexual abuse within the family circle is much, much more common and, in many ways, more insidious.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:27 / 09.06.02
And talking of the "family circle" and the othering of the paedophile....

I think an important step forward would be some attempt within pop-culture to demythologise children (and the pre-adolescent experience).... I've just seen Star Wars and the Jedi-kids made me want to puke - piping, chirping, cutesy sentimentality x n. NASTY. The utterly perverted, kinky "innocence" fetish fostered/reinforced by Hollywood really wants deconstructing.

The "Magic" of childhood is much better, much worse and all consumingly total than any of George Lucas's ghastly, confused, wank-fest renderings of same.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:31 / 09.06.02
But I suppose the above is just the standard appeal for 3D representation made whenever prejudice/objectification rears its ugly head. So I don't suppose it really adds much to the conversation.

Carry on......
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:45 / 09.06.02
Cusm: "I'll have the say the item that interests me is the idea that the pedophile can not control or help that he is attracted to children sexually. I have problems with this concept. There is a school of thought that one desires and preferences are set in stone by some higher power and are beyond the reach of the individual. You are who you are, and that's just that. Its like saying that the Pedophile likes to fuck little boys because God made him that way. Sorry, that's a justification, not an explaination."

Interesting. Is your problem that as an evil act you want to punish the paedophile, yet if he has no control over the desire you'd feel guilty for punishing him for something he has no choice over?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:51 / 09.06.02
Runs: "I think an important step forward would be some attempt within pop-culture to demythologise children (and the pre-adolescent experience).... I've just seen Star Wars and the Jedi-kids made me want to puke - piping, chirping, cutesy sentimentality x n. NASTY. The utterly perverted, kinky "innocence" fetish fostered/reinforced by Hollywood really wants deconstructing."

Have you seen the Aphex Twin 'Come to Daddy' video? I think that's what you might be looking for.
 
 
Sleeperservice
20:40 / 09.06.02
Something that will never go away/be solved/cured or what ever you want to do to it.

So what does that leave us with? It leaves us with a fairly constant (I would guess) level of child abuse within society. These people seem on the whole unable to stop themselves. Repeat offending is high despite the extremely high (highest?) social/legal implications which indicates to me that it's something the individuals concerned cannot do anything about. (or very little at any rate).

So, what do we do? Laila, it seems, would bay for blood at every available opportunity, which is much the situation we are in at the moment. Keep them all hidden in fear until after they've already abused someone and then been caught. Clearly, I hope, Laila would like to reduce the levels of abuse and I just can't see that happening with this approach.

Quite how you would get people to talk about their desires for children so that you could catch them before they abused, however, is beyond me.


On a rather OT point raised earlier but which is related; I also tried to change my sexual preference (gay to straight, who'd want to be gay? I was young...) but it just doesn't work. For me anyway. Sure I could sleep with a woman, but men are best This is only the way *I* am though. Just because this is the way it is for me doesn't make it so for anyone else. Nature is infinitely variable and what is possible for one does not a sweeping generalisation make. There are lots of people on this board (in general) who should take note... (yes, yes, myself included :P)
 
  

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