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Raising Children as Atheists???

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09:47 / 07.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:

One of the things that I realised as a teenager was that you realise when you're fifteen that there isn't any point to anything and then have to spend the rest of your life convincing yourself that that isn't the case.

Alternatively you could spend that time convincing yourself of the folly trying to convince yourself that there either is or is not a 'point' at the end of the line.

By the end of that I'm sure you won't be sure of anything, anyway.

And what's this all got to do with a nice walk in the park on a sunny day is anyones guess...

09:47 / 07.08.01

...I think grant had a decent crack at it because he comes from a realm of personal experience with issues related to the topic. Anyone else here who can claim a similar stance? Not saying that you should, cause I can’t either…

I agree with people who allow the opportunity for discussion, encouragement, and the ability to have the integrity to say that they're not sure about some of the biggest questions one is capable of asking. I can’t say I’m sure but have personally felt a connection with things I am not completely aware of. I also know I can't validate anyone else’s opinion whether or not that they are wrong with how they feel about these things, only rationalize it to the point of insanity sometimes.

Came from all the years up to college with catholic schooling but my parents were good enough to open the floor. Now I'm ignostic but through experiences (martial arts, etc.) with some amazing people and thinkers I've come in contact with "magic" or energy or whatever one feels appropriate to call it. Might sound kind of Taoist...but not exactly.

Also the whole goal oriented conversation of life and death and what you do in it and afterwards can often times fail to see the beauty that lies in the process. I personally see some "god" or otherness in the flow of things, the energy that brings about existence, non-existence, and the chaotic wonder of it all. Whatever anyone else wants to call it is fine. Also, I can see how one's experience with the process kicking them in the ass constantly can turn them off to it. But who says the process ends at death…

So what does this have to do with the conversation? Go with the process, worry about it when you’re there and keep an open mind…the only ones who are completely sure are liars.

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:47 / 07.08.01

quote:Originally posted by The Ungodly Lozt and Found Office:
If you put a child in forthesakeofargument, a Catholic primary school, they might never be in a position of questioning their faith.
My mum's Methodist and my dad's Catholic. Both of 'em had had a previous marriage before they got together - so they weren't exactly letter-of-the-law as far as religion goes. They sent me to catholic schools while I was growing up, not so much for the catchecism aspect, but because they provided a better quality of education (in Australia, at least) than most of the government schools. Sad but true. I don't think that a religious education is necessarily tied to making you a dyed-in-the-wool follower of a faith - a lot of times it's just a decision to provide what is perceived as (and sometimes, in fact, is) a better opportunity for a child. Hell, I was disinterested in religion and spirituality for most of my time there - it became a free period that I could use to do my homework in - but it hasn't stopped me thinking about religion/spirituality/whatever now that I'm at an age where I think I can appreciate the process of questioning. I mean, the teaching that meant (means, even) the most to me was when I learned about the Didache, which pretty much instils the idea that God doesn't care if you fuck up, as long as you try; something that I find (as I investigate) in more religions. (Hell, substitute "society" or "people" or "family" for God and you could even have a reasonable non-religious belief.)

I think there is a lot to be said for "figure-it-our-yourself"-ism, and people should question what they feel (or don't) in spiritual terms. But it is something that will be difficult for a kid. Don't kids need, as has been suggested, some kind of structure? Religion can provide that, but so can atheism, or a strongly scientific mindset.

On the whole, though, I'd say that if you're raising the kid yourself, surely a system that you believe in, or at least give passing credence to is the best thing to be teaching your kid about? I think that strength of character in the kid will, though it may not happen for years to come, overcome whatever you imprint on them in youth if that's what they want to believe.

Goodness Gracious Meme

11:10 / 07.08.01

quote:Are there advantages/disadvantages to instilling certain beliefs in your child (or having others instill those beliefs for you...)? Is it ethical to lie to your child in order to get him/her to act a certain way? Is it ethical to treat a child as if she/he has the decision making capacities of an adult?

Think Tod's hit the (or a, at least) nail on the head here.... these are very important questions, and I'd also like to hear from people who actually deal with them every day...

I'd like to add another one.

If you have a strong belief in some principle that you think makes the world a better place, has positive implications/effects upon those who adhere to it etc, where do you draw the line bewteen teaching them something that you think will benefit them (eg this questioning spirit that people have mentioned a few times, or a faith or guiding principles, eg veganism) and inflicting your principles upon them, or doing that 'trying to build them in your own image' thing that so many people complain about in their parents?

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Lick my plums, bitch. ]

14:20 / 07.08.01

>>>>If you put a child in forthesakeofargument, a Catholic primary school, they might never be in a position of questioning their faith.<<<<<

I am a recovering Catholic myself. I went to parochial school for 10 years. Religion class every day. Only two of the people I went to school with became atheists. Me and my best friend.

I can see how a daily dose of religion would affect people. That's one of the reasons I posted this topic. My wife wants to send our kids to catholic school, and I think it might be good. Only because the education is better and safer (in america at least).

14:40 / 07.08.01

I don't think you should treat your child as a pre-person. They're people, who, yes, need help, but they don't really need more help than I do. Different help, certainly, but not more. And they need structure, of course, but I also need structure in different ways. I very much want something stable in my life, whether everything else is stable or not.

What I'm trying to say is that you can talk to your child about what you believe without trying to force that belief on hir, just as you discuss with a friend what you believe. A child can have very sophisticated thoughts, even if they aren't very good at expressing them. In fact, I find that, lately, my beliefs have been moving back towards what I believed as a child, but had abandoned because I couldn't put it into words.

I doubt that either putting your son or daughter in a Catholic school or a public school is going to scar hir. But when you speak to hir, tell the truth, and note that, even if there were a God, you aren't one. So you could be wrong.

14:48 / 07.08.01

If you're going for the safer and better argument as far as Catholic schools (somewhat off main topic, but part of the whole raising thing), I'd agree in most instances but as I'm sure you know that being bombarded by a religious context isn't for everyone. I feel that the opportunity to know one way well, coupled with the openess to consider other options isn't a bad way to go. But from many experiences, there's still plenty of unquestioning people going through there. It's everyone's right to be ignorant or better yet self-assured.

At the same time though, other aspects of being raised in a religious school can be detramental. The people there are generally a bit more concentrated, more clique oriented, and sometimes a little naive insofar as appropriately dealing with certain situations. And since it costs $, you have to deal with the facts surrounding little bastards who flaunt the advantages available with it. Public schools usually don't tolerate as much since it's a larger institution and there's so many more people to get in contact with.

But there's pros and cons to all things discussed so far...glad you're being active in your search for a better future for your young.

Jack The Bodiless

14:52 / 07.08.01

Gahhh... you can't teach someone atheism. That's got to be a given, right? It has no tenets. There is nothing to teach. It's the absence of belief/faith in a religious paradigm.

And morality is nothing to do with religion. Being a good person is nothing to do with religion. Bringing someone/something up well is nothing to do with religion.

If you believe something passionately yourself, it's practically impossible for that not to impress itself even a little on your child. It's like trying to stop yourself from thinknig about white elephants. If something's that powerful in you, then most of the things you do day to day will be baed on it. Even something as simple as the books on your shelves can touch on a child.

So the best thing to do would be to explain to your child what made you come to that conclusion. It will make them understand you better (which has to be a good thing in a parent/child relationship), and give them the opportunity to make an informed choice about their lives (at the point when they're ready to do so) without reacting against a forced dogma.

And no, I don't believe that any school run by dogmatic types is good for a child. A school run by lovely, sweet, kind Catholics would be a great place to visit (I make the assumption that such a place could exist because I'm being nice), but a child needs a little more mental space to grow. You wouldn't send your kid to military school at that age, would you? You would? Oh.

15:43 / 07.08.01

Ah...I would very politely suggest NOT sending your kids to catholic school. It can be an extremely humiliating, soul-crushing experience, especially if you are NOT raising the child as a catholic. (I speak from personal experience here.) Your child/ren will be "different" and therefore treated "differently", and don't be surprised if the school officials treat your child/ren "differently" as well.

17:04 / 07.08.01

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Mordant Carnival

19:49 / 07.08.01

Ierne is right. Really, really, really, really don't send the kid to Catholic school.

As to atheism vs. religion... Well, I suppose the best thing I can suggest is to let the nipper be aware of the concept of a God/Goddess/pantheon/whatever, but also let them know that you don't share these beleifs. (And BTW, I'm nobody's Mummy, I'm just speculating what I think I'd do in your position).

22:28 / 07.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:

I think there is a horror associated with atheism that derives from there not being any fixity of moral values, no one to impress or live up to...

I don't agree with this *at all*.

I belief in God doesn't of necessity imply a moral code, just as being atheist does not imply a lack of one, as much as say, existentialism does. I think the structure of religion makes it easy for these *vastly* separate philosophical issues to run together in our minds: matters of ethics, theology, ontology most prominently seem linked in these dogmas and for some odd reason, in our arguments about them.

I also think that atheism doesn't necessarily imply unhappiness, just as religion definitely doesn't imply happiness. Any sociological evidence to the contrary is usually intermingled with some many other factors it's difficult to see the forest for the trees.

Personally, I think teaching anything other than agnosticism is pretty dangerous, these days. I have this lazy formulation in my mind about how modern youth doesn't learn personal morality because all it's ever been taught is dogma (religious, or scientific)- which is implicitly easy to reject out of hand if you haven't been taught some of the philosphical basics - and what's left is a gaping amoral hole - and an elementary misunderstanding of how morality is earned, how freedom is earned. And consequently we're all f**ked.

Sorry. Went on a bit of a rant there.

04:36 / 08.08.01

Just beware of teenage rebellion. Yon't want you children becoming bible thumpers at 14.

The Return Of Rothkoid

04:36 / 08.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:
Ierne is right. Really, really, really, really don't send the kid to Catholic school.
Ierne and Mordant - when did you go to school? I went to a Catholic school and found that it wasn't as jackbooted as you'd suggest. Could it just be a quality-of-individual-school thing, rather than necessarily a religious one? I went to a couple of Catholic schools in two countries and am no worse the wear for it, I think. If anything, I felt that I was a little better prepared for university; which isn't a bad thing, I guess.

To a certain extent, I think that a kid getting a certain amount of shit at school is natural. No, it's not good, no it shouldn't happen, but teenage years are generally filled with that kind of thing, aren't they? I think difficulty and acceptance aren't necessarily strictly based on the religious code a child's educated under.

You'll note that I'm not a rabid catholic now, or even a churchgoer. I think they've got parts of it right, and I think other religions offer answers I prefer in some ways. At no point, though, during my education was the consideration of other religion or philosophy a forbidden thing. I don't think that it's necessarily as bad as has been suggested - but maybe that's just my experience. Vet your school, I guess. It's true, some catholic schoolteachers can be fuckwits - but so can people of any belief system you choose - including atheist/agnostic/purple, y'know?

12:13 / 08.08.01

You'll note that I'm not a rabid catholic now, or even a churchgoer. – Rothkoid

Were you or your parents practicing catholics at the time?

The Return Of Rothkoid

12:35 / 08.08.01

Practicing? In terms of attending church outside the times it was expected at school? No. My parents would get the guilts every christmas/easter and take us to mass, but that's about it. I didn't get treated any differently for the lack of church attendence at school, either, but all the major catholic maturity milestones were reached, regardless.

Additionally, it's worth considering whether a kid would bother talking to a parent about spiriality. I didn't, and still don't; I just found/find it more comfortable to do it myself.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Rothkoid ]

14:34 / 08.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Rage:
Just beware of teenage rebellion. Yon't want you children becoming bible thumpers at 14.

I'm absolutely convinced this is how Dubya got elected, by the way.

So: yeah. Don't shut out any avenues.

Also: I went to Catholic school for three hellish years. This may be more a function of this particular school.
I'm glad we actually studied religion -- all kinds of religion. It's like classes comparing Buddhism to Hinduism to Islam to Lutheranism to Catholicism are forbidden in America's public schools, and that's messed up.
In fact, of all the things I learned there, the two that I use most in my career are the required speech class (useful for interviews) and Bible study (useful for, well, End Times prophecies, mainly).

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: grant ]

15:56 / 08.08.01

Rothkoid: Perhaps I asked my question in the wrong manner...whether or not you or your parents were dedicated believers wasn't so much the point as whether or not your parents were catholic and had you baptised as catholic. This would make your case quite different than mine, or indeed that of 1984's kid(s).

And while Rothkoid's experience is valuable and pertinent, I think it is also quite rare. I refuse to rot this thread by discussing what I dealt with personally, but parochial schools are NOT safer than public schools. The very same things go on, but it's never discussed at the same level as public schools.

Mordant Carnival

16:05 / 08.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:

Ierne and Mordant - when did you go to school?

I didn't. I was home-educated. My comment was based purely on the experiences of ex Catholic school pupils of my aquaintence. Whilst at least one person I know speaks affectionately of his old alma mater, on balance I'd tend to say that it would be a mistake if the child isn't being raised Catholic at home.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

16:26 / 08.08.01

I'm about 80%/20% Atheist/Agnostic, and I got most of my moral values from society and my non-religious (but not atheist) parents. I find it a bit irritating that some people seem to confuse having no religion with having no moral code, as though the two were interchangeable. Do we need to have the 'religion caused the most wars' argument again?

BTW; My sister went to a Catholic secondary school. Although she never read the Bible or took to wearing a veil or anything like that her 'general religious' level went up a couple of notches, only to plummet when she turned 16 and discovered boys.

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