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Raising Children as Atheists???

  
  

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Devin 1984
18:39 / 04.08.01
I'm a newbie here, so I apologize if this topic has been presented before...

I became an atheist two years ago. At first, I was gung-ho on raising my future children as atheists (at least show them all religions as well as atheism and let them go from there). But now, I'm reluctant. Why? Because I don't like the feelings that come with being an atheist. The depression, the meaningless existence, the knowledge that I will never "be" once I die.

So my question is... Have any of you had these feelings? And, what are your perceptions of this quandry?
 
 
z3r0
23:26 / 04.08.01
From my experience - from my nick even, you could say - , I think that... I don't know man, you receive a lot once you become an atheist. Freedom, don't have to worry about the all-knowing eye above...
You can transcend being a egoistical person, you can even try to see yourself as part of something bigger, something that you contributed with a little bit of yourself.
One of the most precious things I think we have is the capacity to inquire, to ask, to doubt...
Of course, there are gloomy aspects in being an atheist, but you can always comfort yourself - on the cold nights when the weight of realizing that one day you'll cease to be - thinking: "In the end, I might be wrong."
I don't BELIEVE in life after death. I think the whole idea just does not make sense - but I sincerely hope to be wrong.
 
 
SMS
23:30 / 04.08.01
"...The depression, the meaningless existence, the knowledge that I will never "be" once I die."

There are spiritual paths that don't involve believing in God. Look into a Buddhist philosophy (this is pretty darned close to Christianity, in many respects).

You may also consider chaos magic as a psychological healing. While a few on Barbelith have found it useful to use magic to actually cause a physical change (like getting cigarrettes, a job, and so on...), some consider it to be useful solely because it helps focus and organize the mind.

There's also no reason you can't teach your children about Jesus and all that stuff and still tell them that he was probably just a very wise man that some people think of as God. But that God probably doesn't exist.

Also, note for yourself and your children that the existence of God does not imply a meaning to your existence. In the end, the question must be asked why God is so important. Since everything else in the universe is given meaning by God, what gives God meaning? Himself?

I would also recommend that you teach your children to respect people who do believe in God/somethingelse. There's currently nothing that bothers me more than an atheist who views Christians as imbecilic and immoral.
 
 
Devin 1984
13:57 / 05.08.01
I've studied up on all the religions. I'm not on a spiritual search, I'm just wondering how other atheists feel about what they will and will not teach their children.

While I personally look down on Christians that try to convert me, I never condemn anyone for their beliefs. I will point out inconsistencies when they are preaching to me, but aside from that I ignore it all.

I think my question then is this.

If you are an atheist and you don't believe in life after death, would you consider teaching your children religion(s) so that he or she will have the comfort that comes along with the beliefs?

Religion lets people have these comfortable feelings...

- "I will see Aunty Em in the afterlife, so it's ok that she died."

- "That rich dictator will be punished in the afterlife for killing all those people, it's ok that he's not brought to justice on Earth."

- "It's ok if I die, because I will still be around afterwards."

These are very comfortable feelings, and give a person a sense of security in their life.

So, as a parent. How do you choose? I know you can't mold your child's mind, but you can steer them in certain directions.

Would you not teach your child about atheism so he/she would live a more mentally comfortable life?
(Not to say atheists aren't happy).

Or, would you teach your child atheism and see what happens?
 
 
SMS
15:28 / 05.08.01
I would guess that teaching your child something you personally don't believe will be recognized by the child. If you lie, they will resent it.

Keeping in mind that parents lie about Santa Claus. I don't think this would have nearly as much impact as something so important as God.

[ 05-08-2001: Message edited by: SMatthewStolte ]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
17:37 / 05.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Devin 1984:
I've studied up on all the religions...


Yeah, it looks like it.

quote:Religion lets people have these comfortable feelings...
- "I will see Aunty Em in the afterlife, so it's ok that she died."
- "That rich dictator will be punished in the afterlife for killing all those people, it's ok that he's not brought to justice on Earth."
- "It's ok if I die, because I will still be around afterwards."
These are very comfortable feelings, and give a person a sense of security in their life.

Yes. All religions teach this. Of course. And all people involved in all religions are easily able to accept the above. In no way does a belief in a god/God occasionally make this more difficult. Gahhhh...

quote:Would you not teach your child about atheism so he/she would live a more mentally comfortable life? (Not to say atheists aren't happy). Or, would you teach your child atheism and see what happens?

Is anyone else seeing textbook evangelical atheism here? Or is it just me? And are you American or something, because the lack of irony implicit in the above is breathtaking. You're informing us that you've abandoned religion and religiosity, and have become an atheist. Now you're asking us whether you should bring up a child with your atheist teachings and dogma? Jesus, from the way you're talking about it, sounds like you're a nihilist, or at the very least suffering from clinical depression. You don't sound happy in the slightest, Devin.

Let's clear this up. As expressed in our modern Western culture, 'atheism' is generally a kneejerk reaction to an unhappy past experience with religion, or a towering contempt for religion and the religious (which usually come from the former anyway). In this context, 'religion' is nearly always Christianity-specific - the 'theism' of 'atheism' is nearly always the monotheistic Christian church, in whatever form the 'atheist' experienced it in the past.

If you really don't believe in God, or any other gods, or whatever, and it's a mature decision you've made over the course of a great deal of pondering, then you won't feel the need to strut it in front of others. You won't feel the need to give it a name, and label yourself as 'atheist'. And you won't ask whether you should "teach your child atheism".


"...while dull atheists came and explained to me that there was nothing but matter, I listened with a sort of calm horror of detachment, suspecting that there was nothing but mind. I have always felt that there was something thin and third-rate about materialists and materialism ever since. The atheist told me so pompously that he did not believe there was any God; and there were moments when I did not even believe that there was any atheist."
-- G.K. Chesterton, Autobiography
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:10 / 05.08.01
How about letting your children come to their own conclusions? If you want them to be happy in their own lives, I'd suggest that trying to force them down one road isn't really the way to go about it.
 
 
Dharma Bum
19:07 / 05.08.01
Yeah, let the little punks believe in Ninja Turtles if they like, if that will make them happy, because if all you need religion for is a security blanket, then it really doesn't matter what specific content is used, does it?

Personally, I think any "comforts" one would get from believing in God would be outweighed by the sheer bloody terror of some sort of vast alien being who sits outside the troposphere and wants you to go to burn forever if you masturbate. I mean, even if you don't teach the rugrats that specifc kind of view of "God", sooner or later they're gonna come across it, and at a young age, it can be very hard to reconcile contradictory views of "God".

I also second the idea that there is plenty of "spirituality" to be found in atheism, whether through mysticism, either Western or Eastern, or even just through a joy of nature and science (ie, the Carl Sagan Approach).
 
 
GRIM
06:03 / 06.08.01
I'm an Atheist, but willing to be proved wrong.

I don't see it as depressing or meaningless.

If anything it should teach you to make the most of this life, this one chance you get and to make sure you're happy!

It doesn't need to be presented as a bad thing.
 
 
Tom Coates
08:13 / 06.08.01
I think the issue with all this stuff is that you have to bring up your children to be questioning individuals. I think if you lead them to conclusions then you are going to be in trouble, because they'll either slavishly follow you or they'll react completely. Neither of which is particularly satisfying for a parent.

'will I see auntie em in heaven' - the reply is 'some people say that there's a heaven and you'll see her again, some people say that she'll be reborn, some people say she'll be at peace, some people don't think anything will happen at all. Truth is - no one knows for sure."
 
 
6opow
08:25 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Devin 1984:
At first, I was gung-ho on raising my future children as atheists...

Save yourself the hassel and the distress by not having ANY of those "...future children." And while you're at it you'll contribute to your atheist position by not bringing any more future supporters of any religion into being.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:59 / 06.08.01
Devin- What I get from your two main posts is a feeling of nihilism
quote:
Because I don't like the feelings that come with being an atheist. The depression, the meaningless existence, the knowledge that I will never "be" once I die.
and that you can only be happy if you are religious.

Also, what makes you think you can imprint either atheism or a religion on your child? Were your parents atheists? And why do you think being religious will make your child happier? Think of all the religious depressives we've had. And it seems strange that as an atheist you think it would be better for your child to be brought up in a religion of some kind.

Much better to raise your children with the ability to think and question what is around them. They may then choose a religion, they may not, but if you give them the ability to think that will probably give them the best chance of happiness.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:34 / 06.08.01
My Bodiless doppelganger has, i think, hit it on the head. If what you've drawn from your investigations is the conclusion that religion is a construct intended to comfort, to you I say: Look deeper.

Religion, at its heart, is not a comfort.
Religion is a challenge.

It's a brass ring to reach for, a standard of ethics and compassion, a reversal of the natural kill-or-be-killed, law-of-the-jungle responses with which we are programmed by our biology. Religion dares us to believe that we are more than our bodies.

And it's fucking hard work. It's supposed to be.

This is widely misunderstood by atheists and believers alike.

Dharma Bum: two points. Firstly, "mysticism" and atheism are by definition mutually exclusive: the dictionary definition of mysticism is the intuitive, unmediated experience of or communion with God, or Spirit, or Ultimate Reality--all the stuff the existence of which atheism's WYSIWYG ethos denies.

Secondly:
quote:...the sheer bloody terror of some sort of vast alien being who sits outside the troposphere and wants you to go to burn forever if you masturbate......rather tends to prove JtB's points that quote:As expressed in our modern Western culture, 'atheism' is generally a kneejerk reaction to an unhappy past experience with religion...Mileage varies. Your baggage is not mine.

Now get your hands out of there.
 
 
Cavatina
12:52 / 06.08.01
z3rO quote:'One of the most precious things I think we [atheists] have is the capacity to inquire, to ask, to doubt ...

And this is denied to us if we are part of a religious community? The most inspiring person I know with this capacity is a Dominican sister. Christianity is not monolithic. There are, for example, Catholics who are not shackled or silenced by the Vatican and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Whence comes the notion that 'religion lets people have these comfortable feelings ... '?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:05 / 06.08.01
A related point: Atheism is not about inquiry or doubt. Atheism is about certainty. A=no, theos=god. The starting point for atheism is an utter certainty that there is no God.

That very certainty always struck me as a monumental arrogance.

The only intellectually honest choice, it seems to me, is agnosticism. Gnosis=knowledge; to be an agnostic is to admit, "I don't know."

I don't know, and don't claim to know: I believe, and that's the crucial thing. And yes, that leap of faith is difficult. As noted above, it's supposed to be.

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Seth
13:38 / 06.08.01
I’m with the Jacks and Cavatina here.

I live with all the positive and negative aspects of a questioning nature (which does have a downside: doubting/questioning everything often leads to paralysis) as well as the ups and downs of faith (which can be terrifying in its implications. True faith is to live in a state of constant change).

My advice? Let them find out about this stuff by themselves. When it comes to teaching them anything, show them the importance of looking out for others, caring for friends/enemies alike. Teach them about agape. They’ll work out the rest of the important stuff within this context.

Man – that sounds really corny. Normal service will resume shortly.
 
 
z3r0
13:56 / 06.08.01
People who question and doubt are not well seen in western religious history. Don´t need to come up with examples.

It IS needed an inquiring mind to try to look out of what is offered as explanation of things by religious people. An atheist will always be asking questions about a whole lot of issues, not only religion.

However arrogant it may be, isn't it in people´s right to fome forward and say: "I truly believe with all my capacity of judgement that the existence of a godlike conscience can´t be true"?

---
By Jack The Bodiless
quote:Let's clear this up. As expressed in our modern Western culture, 'atheism' is generally a kneejerk reaction to an unhappy past experience with religion, or a towering contempt for religion and the religious (which usually come from the former anyway).

Jack, you truly think that atheism can only come from disastrous experiences with religion, and never from rational inquiry? That sounds a lot like arrogance to me...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:16 / 06.08.01
People seem to be offering the PC shibboleth of "raise the children so that they question everything and figure things out for themselves" as a blanket answer to the posed question. However, these same people are forgetting that the reason you have to raise children and instill values is that children by definition aren't capable of figuring things outs. Sure, we want to let our teenagers come to their own conclusions about what's valuable in life. But that, I would say, is not an appropriate way of dealing with an 8 year old's mind. Children of different ages need different types of education. Perhaps formal religion is a valuable tool, to use as a viral "shell" for encouraging certain types of behavior, even if there is disagreement with certain of the religion's tenets.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:19 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
A related point: Atheism is not about inquiry or doubt. Atheism is about certainty. That very certainty always struck me as a monumental arrogance.


Just to clarify; Would you agree that having absolute certainty that a God does exist is equally arrogant?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:20 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by z3r0:
People who question and doubt are not well seen in western religious history. Don´t need to come up with examples.How convenient for you.

Need I remind you that Jesus was executed as both a heretic and a revolutionary? That St. Francis of Assisi was nearly branded a heretic? Joan of Arc? Hell, the entire discipline of theology is based on questioning--and theology is not supposed to simply reaffirm the status quo--it's meant to get us closer to Absolute Truth.

To paraphrase St. Paul: Our knowledge now is imperfect, and we perceive the Truth imperfectly--"as through a glass, darkly." Organized religion is NOT claiming to have it all figured out.

Atheism--true, hard-ass atheism, not doubtful agnosticism--DOES make that claim. No God: case closed, no need for any further questions. And I find that a lazy and untrustworthy conclusion.

quote:It IS needed an inquiring mind to try to look out of what is offered as explanation of things by religious people. An atheist will always be asking questions about a whole lot of issues, not only religion.This cuts both ways. The religious person questions "received truth" also, on all manner of issues. Science says that universe is random, that consciousness is a purely electrochemical phenomenon: science says all kinds of things that I don't believe to be the whole truth. I questions the validity of scientific assumptions. I inquire into alternative viewpoints.

quote:However arrogant it may be, isn't it in people´s right to come forward and say: "I truly believe with all my capacity of judgement that the existence of a godlike conscience can´t be true"?Believe whatever you like. But atheism--flatly stating "There is no God," full stop, no room for a shadow or a shade of a doubt, makes a claim for absolute knowledge--gnosis.

Which is, frankly, pretty much like me saying that I know for sure that God exists. Unless I have His home phone number and have a lunch date with Him for Wednesday, I can make no such claim.

Any inclination to believe or to disbelieve are is just one shade along the long spectrum of agnosticism. And that's fair and honest.

Gnostics of either type, though--those who claim to be blessed with some special Absolute Knowledge unavailable to the rest of us poor slobs, some knowledge that frees them from the burden of doubt or belief--tend to get my back up, though.

quote:Jack, you truly think that atheism can only come from disastrous experiences with religion, and never from rational inquiry? That sounds a lot like arrogance to me...Read more closely. Not "only"--but "generally." As in, very often.

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Jack Fear
14:22 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Ungodly Lozt and Found Office:Just to clarify; Would you agree that having absolute certainty that a God does exist is equally arrogant?Absolutely. The early Christian gnostics were insufferable, pharasaical fuckheads--exactly the sort of holier-than-thou know-it-alls you'd expect.

I make no claims for God's existence, only for my own belief.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:29 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by todd:
Perhaps formal religion is a valuable tool, to use as a viral "shell" for encouraging certain types of behavior, even if there is disagreement with certain of the religion's tenets.

"Give me a child at 4 and I have him for life." Or something similar, I forget exactly what. If you put a child in forthesakeofargument, a Catholic primary school, they might never be in a position of questioning their faith.

And are you saying atheists can't raise their children to have morals, because thats what your post implies.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:36 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Ungodly Lozt and Found Office:


"Give me a child at 4 and I have him for life." Or something similar, I forget exactly what. If you put a child in forthesakeofargument, a Catholic primary school, they might never be in a position of questioning their faith.

And are you saying atheists can't raise their children to have morals, because thats what your post implies.

I went to Catholic grammar school for 9 years, grades k-8, and I'm pretty much an atheist at this point in my life. I don't think formative religious experience has much bearing on what you believe as an adult.

By the same token, my girlfriend was raised an atheist, and I would consider her extremely moral (in fact, the most moral people I've known in my life (actually, the people whose behavior the nuns in my catholic grammar school would have most approved of) have been raised by atheists.)

My point was not against Atheism at all. It was against the mushy, figure it out for yourselfism that is offered by free thinkers as a panacea for all ethical and moral dilemnas. I think you'd be doing your pre-adolescent child a great disservice if you raised hir as a relativist. Structure, whether atheistic, Catholic, buddhist, hindu, whatever, is what I am arguing for.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:40 / 06.08.01
This thread has degenerated into Theism v. Atheism when really a much more interesting issue is the one it began with; that is, are there advantages/disadvantages to instilling certain beliefs in your child (or having others instill those beliefs for you...)? Is it ethical to lie to your child in order to get him/her to act a certain way? Is it ethical to treat a child as if she/he has the decision making capacities of an adult?
 
 
belbin
14:49 / 06.08.01
Jack Fear:
quote:A related point: Atheism is not about inquiry or doubt. Atheism is about certainty. A=no, theos=god. The starting point for atheism is an utter certainty that there is no God.
Atheism does imply a position of belief ("conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence") however it does not imply "utter certainty" anymore than a belief in Christianity implies "utter certainty".

SHOCK! HORROR! Both atheists and believers in various faiths can be dogmatic, rude, arrogant, blinkered - in short, human. Can we move on now please?

quote:Religion, at its heart, is not a comfort.
Religion is a challenge. No, it can be a challenge. It can also be a security blanket, a justification for oppression and bigotry. But then this flexability of use is common to all human inventions (and that may seem like a belittlement but truly it is not). Some religious faiths are towering achievements of human endeavour. Some are worthless.

Jack the Bodiless:
quote:As expressed in our modern Western culture, 'atheism' is generally a kneejerk reaction to an unhappy past experience with religion, or a towering contempt for religion and the religious (which usually come from the former anyway).
So atheists are all psychologically maladjusted? I hope this is tongue-in-cheek dig at comments by atheistists about Believers. The interesting thing it does draw out is that few people make a decision about faith (nbe it to accept or reject)based solely on "rational" criteria. For many, life experience and emotional turmoil are as much drivers as scientific evidence. But do these feeling invalidate the conclusions? Not necessarily. But you have to be aware of why you've made such key decisions in order to have any self-understanding and ultimately maturity. Otherwise you go thru life with blinkers.

Jack Fear again:
quote:The only intellectually honest choice, it seems to me, is agnosticism. Gnosis=knowledge; to be an agnostic is to admit, "I don't know."
A bit ambiguous about this actually. At it's self-critical best, agnosticism is a position of generousity and honesty. However, it can also be cover for intellectual laziness and an unwillingness to confront difficult questions. "I don't know" becomes "I can't be bothered to find out".

Devin:
A the risk of falling into amateur psychology, it sounds like you're still trying to reconcile yourself to a life without (a) god(s). Are your children imminent? If not, you may want to get your own head together first. I'd start by believing six impossible things before breakfast. Okay that was flippant but you get the idea. Try stretching your mind if you're not doing so already.

Tom: Emminently sensible advice. So for the kiddies, we want:
- Respect for other people but also
- A questioning attitude to the beliefs of yourself and others
- A belief that life here on earth is GOOD and WORTHWHILE and DIFFICULT but FUN
Piece of piss, eh?

What's next? World Peace?

Finally some quotes:
"Religion is the sigh of the soul in a soulless world" Karl Marx
"Atheism is privative only in the sense of a collapsing dam" Nick Land
 
 
T
14:58 / 06.08.01
isn't atheism a belief system with its own internally consistent dogma, an atheology? call it what you will, but it sounds like a religion to me.

devein, you've studied all the major religions, dabbled a bit here and there, see hwta works for you? you've tried atheism for 2 years now and comew to the conclusion that it doesn't work for you? you're trweating atheism as you do religion, and now you want to know whether to raise your kids in this tradition? as someone pointed out earlier, the irony is too much, its all circular tautology.

and raising kids, i'd go with the principle to raise your kids to think critically, but that doesn't mean not taking a position on anything. as kids grow up, if they're raised thinking critically, they will begin to develop their own positions distinct from their parents, either subtly or massively, but that will be they will draw conclusions based on their own critical thought. they may find stimuklation and a sense of meaningful existence in religious traditions you may not agree with or necessarily understand, but as a loving parent, you should respect that - even if they decide be become aetheists after you've moved on and found jesus.
 
 
belbin
15:04 / 06.08.01
quote:This thread has degenerated into Theism v. Atheism when really a much more interesting issue is the one it began with; that is, are there advantages/disadvantages to instilling certain beliefs in your child (or having others instill those beliefs for you...)? Is it ethical to lie to your child in order to get him/her to act a certain way? Is it ethical to treat a child as if she/he has the decision making capacities of an adult?

todd. you. are. great.

May I throw in a thought here? Whatever you teach your children, they are more likely to be influenced by your actions. So you whatever you tell them, if you behave like a two-faced, good-far-nuttin-varmint, they'll probably turn out a bit screwed up?

So if you have some sort of ethical system that makes your behaviour seem more than the arbitary whims of a maniac and you actually follow it thru, then you may be doing okay.

But I also think some flexibility and encouragement towards self-critique and examination are vital. I didn't get this as a child (things were either "Right" or "Wrong" and you weren't allowed to ask why) and I feel like it's taken me years to catch up.

On to some specifics:
quote:are there advantages/disadvantages to instilling certain beliefs in your child (or having others instill those beliefs for you...)?
Well, yeah. But that's a little bit to general to get my teeth into now...
quote:Is it ethical to lie to your child in order to get him/her to act a certain way?
Not ethical but often expedient. I would try to keep this to a minimum if you want to keep the trust of your child. Particularly about things that are important to you because the pressure of maintaining a pretense will show and may sour things a bit.
quote:
Is it ethical to treat a child as if she/he has the decision making capacities of an adult?
Not all the time, but where do you draw the line?

I am not a parent so can we have some input from some mommys and daddays in the house please? (and identify yourselves as such) With examples if possible.
 
 
Dharma Bum
15:23 / 06.08.01
quote:isn't atheism a belief system with its own internally consistent dogma,
an atheology? call it what you will, but it sounds like a religion to me.


Okay, I'm contributing to further degeneration of the thread, but at least personally, atheism is not a dogma. Not internally consistant. There is no "atheology". All it's saying is that for such a momenumental supposition as the existence of a Supreme Being, we'd like to see some proof. And until we do, we're not going to accept it. Everything else is up to the individual to decide.

Which relates back to raising kids and the idea of teaching them critical thinking-- which is to never just teach your kids to accept something on faith or without reason. This is not being wishywashy or refusing to take a stand, it's refusing to take a stand that's not supported.

It means any time your child asks "Why?" you never just answer "Because." You give as much of an explanation as you can, and when you can't explain, you admit that you don't know.
 
 
z3r0
15:34 / 06.08.01
quote: How convenient for you.
Need I remind you that Jesus was executed as both a heretic and a revolutionary? That St. Francis of Assisi was nearly branded a heretic? Joan of Arc? Hell, the entire discipline of theology is based on questioning--and theology is not supposed to simply reaffirm the status quo--it's meant to get us closer to Absolute Truth.


Yeah, but how they ended? I don't really care that nowadays Jesus is acknowledged as son of God, but I care a lot about the poor fuck who ended crucified 2000 years ago because the establishment saw him as a risk.
Luther, Galileo, Spinoza, excomungated at 24 years old, even in more recent times, with Leonardo Boff - sorry if I only give examples of christian religions.

You are talking about things at their definitions, their pure theorical concepts -"atheism", "theology"... in a perfect world it would really make sense.
I am talking about these things when it comes down to what really happens.

I can tell you that no significant theological questioning is directed at the Church's more vital dogmas. It just isn't. When such a thing occurs, it would imply a reorganization, a step back, and those who benefit from the status quo don't like this kind of stuff, see Leonardo Boff and his Theology of Liberation, which I already cited - he was excomungated by Leo X - or the Charismatic Movement here in Brazil. They don´t like changes because it's like saying, "despite all our efforts, this is still a organization ran by imperfect men. We are sorry, but we were wrong.", and people don't want to hear this. They want to be comforted. And in the end, tht's truth. It is only an institution ran by fallible men.
 
 
Devin 1984
16:11 / 06.08.01
Jack Bodiless - You stated that it doesn't look like I've studied religion. When did I ever state anything to make you believe the contrary? I said I've studied up on all religions, and I have. I've come to my conclusions based on this research.

Your quote: "And are you American or something, because the lack of irony implicit in the above is breathtaking. You're informing us that you've abandoned religion and religiosity, and have become an atheist. Now you're asking us whether you should bring up a child with your atheist teachings and dogma? Jesus, from the way you're talking about it, sounds like you're a nihilist, or at the very least suffering from clinical depression. You don't sound happy in the slightest, Devin."

For an intellectual, you sure do rely on stereotypes. Yes, I am an American. I guess that means I own a gun, have a personal attorney, and watch television five hours a day.

I wasn't looking for any answers, I'm just wondering how others are dealing with this issue.

I wholeheartedly believe we are just animals. With no soul. Nothing. When we die, we die.

I don't think I want to instill this belief in my children, because with it, does come a sense of sadness and insignificance.

No, I am not depressed. This newfound belief has made me appreciate all forms of life much more than I did before. I kill absolutely NOTHING. Except of course air borne and invisible creatures, but anyway.

Of course I will let my child make up his or her own mind, but inevitably, children pick up on parents beliefs. I have to talk to him/her about my beliefs, but I will wait util they are the right age.

So again, my question...

Is it philosophically or morally acceptable to purposely NOT teach a child about Atheism. To just let them embrace religion and live that existence?
 
 
Myfi
16:26 / 06.08.01
Hi

I think you need to look at atheism as more of a shift of power. It's giving the power back to the people (I know that sounds pretty awful)..but really, it gives you back the control. You are free to raise your children to believe in themselves, and the power and magic of everything around them...

I don't see that this has to be a negative thing, after all, okay so maybe you don't believe that you go to heaven when you die, but how about belief in the fact that you're part of some huge human effort spanning thousands of lifetimes. You're a part of that huge human experiment and you have a chance to make it count. You don't have to rely on you ideas or expectations being spelled out to you by any secular group or texts, you are free to go in whichever direction you choose.

What you have to do is bring the 'magic' and all-mighty power of whatever deity you happened to believe in and place it in what your kids see and what they want to see. Also, don't forget, although alot of Jesus' teachings were politically swayed over the centuries, the basic principles are still OK, so there's no reason why they should be avoided.

If it's any consolation I can tell you that when my little sister was eight, she told me she was going to kill herself so she could have fun in heaven, and also that strict Christian upbringings have much more to answer for than we shall ever know (and I'm not talking happy ever afters).

I say go fot it, whatever you go with, they'll only end up running in the opposite direction anyway
 
 
z3r0
16:32 / 06.08.01
By Myfi:
quote: I think you need to look at atheism as more of a shift of power. It's giving the power back to the people
Totally.
 
 
grant
19:00 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by belbin:
I am not a parent so can we have some input from some mommys and daddays in the house please? (and identify yourselves as such) With examples if possible.

Well, I'm not a daddy, but I've recently found myself in a step-fatherish role (older girlfriend has a seven-year-old son; he recently asked if i could be his stepfather for real over dinner). Kids, especially young kids, need to learn how to make their own decisions, yeah, but they also need to have what the child-rearing books call "structure."
Explanations that make sense to a four-year-old mind.

my girlfriend, she self-describes as an atheist, but it's more of a hunch than anything. we're both fairly agnostic (in the traditional sense), so we meet in the middle. her extended family is close-knit, and her older sister takes the boy to the local Episcopal church and occasional Sunday school along with his cousins. girlfriend thinks it's cute when he says things like "I've also got a Dad in the sky" and occasionally yells up to God, asking for favors and whatnot. i haven't noticed any inconsistencies; like most Westerners, we don't really live with religion every day.

on the other hand, i'm never quite sure how to react when he starts asking me questions about the Eleggua/St. Anthony I've got set up by the front door. he's a little kid; loves the stacks of coins in the basket. last saturday, he asked me if the little guy could talk. i had to say, "well, inside my head, yeah, but not so my ears could hear him."

so: he's got a grasp of religious principles, but it's pretty clear that his mom's not that into it. which seems to work OK.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:16 / 07.08.01
quote: A related point: Atheism is not about inquiry or doubt. Atheism is about certainty. A=no, theos=god. The starting point for atheism is an utter certainty that there is no God.

That very certainty always struck me as a monumental arrogance.

The only intellectually honest choice, it seems to me, is agnosticism. Gnosis=knowledge; to be an agnostic is to admit, "I don't know."

I don't know, and don't claim to know: I believe, and that's the crucial thing. And yes, that leap of faith is difficult. As noted above, it's supposed to be.

I consider myself an atheist and I don't think it's a particularly arrogant position at all. It's like saying that you're an adaemonist - or an a-pinkcowsfallingoutsidemywindow-ist. I can't see any NEED for a god in the universe, and while there may very well be one, it seems to me to be only as likely as a pink cow falling outside my window at this very moment. I can't KNOW that it's not happened, but I have to think it's unlikely enough not to have any impact on how I live my life. Therefore atheist.

I think there is a horror associated with atheism that derives from there not being any fixity of moral values, no one to impress or live up to, but I think this is associated with our relationship with our parents and our compulsion to find 'point' in everything. If I believed in 'self' I would probably argue that you could follow your own instincts and desires and do precisely what you want, since there is no consequence to any action that one could make in larger terms. But I don't really believe in that either...

One of the things that I realised as a teenager was that you realise when you're fifteen that there isn't any point to anything and then have to spend the rest of your life convincing yourself that that isn't the case. I salute those amongst us who have managed to convince themselves accordingly, they are the most useful people alive.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:47 / 07.08.01
When you're fifteen you also realise that the world revolves around you, that you're intellectually superior to everyone else and that you're never going to get the girl/boy of your dreams to like you.
 
  

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