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Do you support the death penalty?

 
  

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Char Aina
20:17 / 28.11.02
no shit sherlock.

i didnt say i had defeated any arguments, i had only got as far as vaguely waving a hand in the direction of where i might go looking for holes.
i think i said as much...
and i definitely said can think round, not did.


to the argument relating to a life for a life...

if that is truly the basis for an argument for the death penalty, then the killing of two people stumps it straight away. i will be charitable and assume it is rather death for death, of an unspecified amount. i do think it is relevant who is killed, and how many. as you begin to suggest, there is a difference in killing a cop and a hooker. you have to kill a lot of prostitutes to get anything like the notice you get for just one officer of the law.(a sudden tangent occurs to me; the likeliehood of capture, depending on your crime and status)
i also think that basic revenge thinking or eye for eye punishment has been proven innefective by many parents, with cycles of abuse to show for it.

i really dont think this bears much going in to, its fairly obvious to me that the motive is vengeance in most cases and not actually the justice it gets labelled.

the concept of removing the perpetators of violent crime from our society...

we do already when we jail them.

we would give the accidentally convicted less chance of appeal if we kill them. (the short time they have, i believe, is currently being eroded by the present US administartion...? did bush not disallow a law regarding mental health and death row while governor too?)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:08 / 28.11.02
Ok...well, if it is obvious that the death penalty is not about justice could you perhaps think about *why* the death penalty still exists, both in the US and elsewhere?

On the removal from society - it has been demonstrated that an unlimited tarriff is a legally complex thing, requiring significant political involvement to ensure. It is always possible that an offender will, if not given an unlimited tarriff, live out their sentence and be released into the world.

Meanwhile, you say "vengeance" as if it's a bad thing - and here comes Foucault, as I rather predicted he might. The process of law is an act of punishment against the individual by the state. This is intended to replace the settling of individual scores by the offended relatives or friends of the victim. The state takes on itself the desire and the need for retribution - by harming its citizen, you harm the state. In which case the death penalty can be justified as one fo a range of punishments viable as a means of ensurinbg that the role of the state as righter of the perceived wrongs of the individual is not undermined by apparent laxity. If people are to be killed, the argument goes, better that they be killed through rather than outside the process of the law. If the perpetrator kills more than one person it is an irrelevance - the point is that they must pay for the deaths they have caused. If they have onyl one life to give, then they must give it. To asume exact mathematical parallelism is Heinleinian at best.

Deterrence is an interesting one - there seem to be two readings of the concept. One states very simply that one can hardly reoffend after one is dead, the other that one's death will encourage others not to offend in the first place (which is why you have to go the chair weeping and begging). The first is inarguable, the second debatable.
 
 
Char Aina
07:16 / 29.11.02
To asume exact mathematical parallelism is Heinleinian at best.

explain.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:15 / 29.11.02
During his right-wing nutter phase (that is, most of his life, now that I think about it), Heinlein proposed a n ideal state in which offences were punished by "balancing". Thus, if a drunk driver hit somebody and broke their arm, they would then be he'd down on a road and the injured part could drive over *their* arm.

Your position on "a life for a life" depends on an overly literal reading of the phrase. Better perhaps to say "life for life"; that is, under a particular set of conditions (those idenitifiable as "Murder One", for example), the taking of a human life (or any number of human lives) removes the offender's own right to live.
 
 
Char Aina
10:53 / 29.11.02
yeah, thats pretty much what i said, though.
rater than be a dick about it, and attack the actual words, i assumed the better interpretation.
which of course you knew.



(what IS the posting limit?)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:03 / 29.11.02
Yes, but your only arguments so far against "life for life" or "death for death", if you'd rather, were i) that there is a difference in the value of the people who might have died, which is not entirely relevant, and that eye-for-eye retribution has been shown to be an ineffectual form of punishment by unhappy families, which doesn't make an awful lot of sense without a bit of explanation. Abusive familes *don't* practice "eye-for-an-eye" punishment, do they? Isn't part of the *abusive* nature of the relationship is that the punishments are disproportionate to the offence? Unless you mean that, just as those who are abused in families become abusers of their own families subsequently, those who were executed using the death penalty will subsequently...um...kill people.

Possibly you mean that the social effects of the death penalty are so detrimental as to make the death penalty unsustainable, but you are going to have to present an actual argument for that, rather than drawing a largely inappropriate comparison.

And the posting limit is 25 posts in a 24-hour period, but nobody can ever quite understand *which* 24-hour period. It's a mystery.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:26 / 29.11.02
Because the lesson from Tim McVeigh that you are trying to get across is that killing people is wrong.

Um, no….anyone who has reached the age of reason, if not before that, knows that killing people is wrong. I suppose we could be killing retarded people, who might not know that killing people is wrong, in order to demonstrate to other mentally handicapped people that killing people is wrong. Or children. Children can learn that killing is wrong from the death penalty, though I'd like to think there's better ways to teach them that.

To think of the death penalty as having a "moral" lesson, such as the demonstration of "right" and "wrong" is to humanize the actions of the state too much. To think of the state as a moral actor in the same way you and me are is incorrect. The citizens of the state are the moral actors, and their desire and need for retribution (as Haus sez) is delegated to and executed by the apparatus of the state. The state, like karma, is a blind machine. The state doesn't teach ethics through its actions, it teaches a simple cause-effect chain. What you're supposed to deduce from the actions of the state in this case is not that killing is wrong, but that if you kill someone, you'll be killed as well, not because what you did is wrong, because that's what the state does when one of it's own is killed. It kills you. So it's not a moral imperative that the state is imparting.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:40 / 29.11.02
I've read too much on how the death penalty 'works' in America to be able to support it. Basically, a person can commit terrible crimes in one state, but if they have enough money for the right lawyer, or the state Governor has a vested interest in not having anyone be put to death, then they won't get the death penalty. Do the same thing in another state, or have no money for a good lawyer, or a Governor who wants to get elected on a hard line ticket, and you've had it.

Oh, and being black is, of course, not a good idea if you want to avoid the death penalty.

So the system appears to me to be incredibly unfair, as much down to politics and money and race as the actual crime perpetrated. The threat of capital punishment does not appear to act as a deterrent, either. What it does do, of course, is stop that particular person from committing another crime: I have to say, the thought that someone like Peter Sutcliffe (the 'Yorkshire Ripper') could have been sentenced to death and so there be no chance of his ever being out on the streets again would make me breath a sigh of relief. But a reliable justice system shouldn't need, and shouldn't have, the death penalty. Life imprisonment should mean just that.

So the answer to the question is no, I don't support the death penalty. We no longer have it here in the UK, and I'm glad we don't. Too many factors get in the way of justice.
 
 
some guy
15:40 / 29.11.02
anyone who has reached the age of reason, if not before that, knows that killing people is wrong.

It might be fairer to say that anyone who has reached the age of reason knows that killing people is wrong in certain circumstances, and applauded in others. Any society with a military or armed police force effectively admits that killing is not wrong, as long as the killer and victim are the right people.

Children can learn that killing is wrong from the death penalty, though I'd like to think there's better ways to teach them that.

Given that children are shortly going to be hearing about state-sponsored carpet bombing on television, I'm not sure why you think they're being taught that killing is wrong...

The state, like karma, is a blind machine.

Except that it's not, unless the statistics relating to capital punishment correlate with the statistics on crime. And they don't.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:47 / 29.11.02
I've sent this letter to my student paper, it's pretty self explanatory and it seems to apply to this thread so I'm gonna stick it here.

Dear Gair Rhydd,

In the features section on the 25th November Abbi Shaw wrote that
Myra Hindley posed for her 'one of the only concrete cases for
reinstating the death penalty'. I would have to disagree with her. No case is bad enough, no crime great enough, to justify the death penalty.

Capital punishment fuels a disgust in me that nothing else can come
close to. Once you kill one person through the state a gateway is
opened and many more are punished in such a way. Innocent people
begin to die. The death penalty allows a nation to kill a human being
because that person has killed. So what next? Do you kill the executioner who has killed a murderer? There is no logic in allowing this kind of killing.

For many years people have used the existence of serial killers as
proof against the above argument but surely we, through this type of
punishment, create state executioners as serial killers. A nation that
allows the death penalty sanctions the existence of cold-blooded
administrative murder.

Myra Hindley's life was taken away from her in a way that can be
justified. We should not seek her blood, we should not have sought
her death, as she sought the death of her victims. She did forfeit
her rights as a human being and the state imprisoned her and gave her
time, space and allowed her stories to spread. This country did good by
its people because it did not, in any way, mimic her actions. It did not sentence her to death.


As you can see I'm very very anti- capital punishment.
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
02:50 / 30.11.02
This is a difficult subject; the difference between actual justice and ideological justice are great. On a fundamental basis, society is run on a concept of might is right. The powerful few rule over the weak majority. But because the powerful few need to acknowledge the weak majority (due to their size and practical importance), they afford them a certain amount of Pseudo self-determination, the democratic state. Many changes in the law can be traced back to post feudalistic times when peoples challenged the authority of the lawmakers. But despite all of the battles between classes the state still remains (to an arguable extent) the battleground between the classes, who has power over the state is another argument.

To get to my point, if people could issue a death penalty this would mean a greater power of the people. However without the state, a situation where might is right would be predominant.

All that a lack of a death penalty does, is to smooth away the corners. In most working class communities the lack of a death penalty for the worst crimes is anathema, yet this power to decide confers power to the state. The state decides the punishment. A death penalty was usually reserved for murderers or treacherous. The benefit for the majority is that no dissenters will be killed. This is largely significant, as in today’s world a dissenter would not normally be put to death.

I think that the death penalty represents primary fears and control, death penalty or no death penalty, the state decides.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
09:58 / 30.11.02
On further contemplation of this subject I'm thinking that the death penalty is stooping to the level of the condemned. Therein is the state no better than a murderer? It saddens me to think that a governmental system is not capable of management it's judicial and rehabilitation systems without resorting to destruction of life. It appears as if they have just given up on trying to achieve the best result.
On a tangental note I find it very strange that the United States is so fractionated in their approaches to justice and cannot form a unilateral policy.
 
 
some guy
13:15 / 30.11.02
On a tangental note I find it very strange that the United States is so fractionated in their approaches to justice and cannot form a unilateral policy.

Well, you've got to remember that in theory the United States isn't so much a big country as a collection of 50 smaller, independent governments. Of course, this really isn't the case any more, but there are still awkward throwbacks like the one you point out...
 
 
Char Aina
09:41 / 02.12.02
yes, haus, obviously i meant to say that if you kill someone they will only go on to kill others.
i mean, christ, the logic was so transparent, i didnt even feel it needed said. obviously.

oh. wait. you were being a twat....gotcha.

i was talking about the deterrent effect of the death penalty.
"do this or i smack/electrocute you" being a rough wording of the parrallel.

when i was threatened with such punishment(fairly rarely, ill admit)it did not ever make me cower, but instead made me even more angry. even at a young age, six or so, i was aware of the stupidity of violence to cure violence, even if i would not have been able to argue the toss efficiently.
and although my parents would not have ben working on a precise eye for eye basis (else they would have made me drink my cousins cough medecine that i gave her in error), i think that their rule of law was at least influenced a little by that kind of thought.

yes i could have gone into more depth, on both points, but as i felt i was answering an unelaborated side, i felt i need not elaborate myself.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:29 / 02.12.02
That's nice, Toksik. Good to know you were right all along. Shall we talk about the death penalty now? Or would you like to shout abuse a bit more? Then you could run up to the girl you liked, punch her on the arm and run away again...

The contention that deterrence through the threat of violence is useless is worth noting. But how does this vary from lenghty imprisonment, which is presumably, although not physically violent, more violent against the person? If we are claiming that the fear of execution is no deterrent at all, whereas the fear of imprisonment is a functional deterent, then I'm afraid I will struggle to believe that. If the contention is that the death penalty is no more effective a deterrent than the threat of imprisonment...well, that is a different and far more credible position. Does anyone have any useful stats on this one?

Panarchy - I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the death penalty would be more democratic (because it would follow the will of the people), or that it would show the cruelty of the elite responsible for makign and enforcing the laws more plain? Would you then go for a situation where criminals could be executed, but only if a majority of the people (tm) supported that punishment?

One of the interesting things, looking at the US (one of...what...seven nations that have the execution of minors as a legal recourse?) is that the existence of the death penatly seems to focus the liberal mind wonderfully; it shows, in comprehensible numbers and with a killer punchline (if you'll forgive the levity), the incredible danger that being poor or black (or indeed, mentally ill, especially if combined with poorness or blackness) exposes you to in the justice system of certain states. Perhaps, then, the main utility of the death sentence is to provide penal reformers with a handy beacon to rally around. But if it is so apalling, why do these states still both have and use it, and why is the willingness to perform executions apparently such a desirable electoral characteristic (George W., famously, claimed that he attempted to conceal his drink-driving offence because he did not want to encourage his children in such bad ways, but was happy to stand on his record as having given gubernatorial sanction to a good few executions)?
 
 
Char Aina
11:21 / 02.12.02
it is likely to be a better deterrent if someone like myra hindley is in prison, as visible as all heck, for years and years, than if one person fries/hangs/etc for a brief moent of history.

can you name any one who was exectued in the last ten trials in this country that ended with a death sentence?
or even, to be more recent, in the states?
maybe you pay a lot more attention and can, but i am hard pressed to. its that slow drip of the time being served, and the absolute destruction of possible martyrdom, made possible by witnessing the violent offenders become old and infirm.
the ones i remember are those who got time, and that would scare me nore than dying anytime.


and man, just because you name call in a more snotty-nosed, highbrow way, does not mean it is any less childish. if anything, your manner is less mature.
you know what?
i dont care. slang away as much as you like, just make sure you dont do it at detriment to the main points.

ps
what was i right all along about? or was that one of the barbs that make up your hooks?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:03 / 02.12.02
Well, about "the logic being so transparent". In essence, if you want to start a thread in the Conversation about how good you are at presenting arguments through telepathy, then feel free to do so. In a thread about capital punishment in the Head Shop, I'm afraid we slower readers will need you to explain and support your position. And, if your argument is demonstrably inadequate, try not to take it out on other people. It's distracting.

For reference, the last men hanged in Briton were Peter Allen and Gwynne Evans in 1964. In the years before this, executions had become increasingly rare through a combination of public disquiet resulting from the executions of, in particular, Timothy Evans (the Rillington Place murders - he was pardoned posthumously in 1966 or thereabouts, I think) Derek Bentley and Ruth Elis, and the uncertainty caused by the muddled and incoherent homicide act of 1957. I might suggest that the fact that these people were executed 38 or more years ago (Evans was executed in 1950) is perhaps more relevant to whether or not you or others remember them than the fact that they were executed.

Hindley, conversely, may not have been a martyr (and is it likely that she would have become so if executed? Fred West is dead, and not many people are queuing up to form fan clubs), but she did become an icon. Whether this process would have been augmented or retarded by her execution is questionable. However, the abiding image of her remains the bleach-blonde photograph taken at the time of her arrest - only one of the papers chose a more recent photo to mark her passing, for example, and her constant presence to lobby for her release kept her in the public eye and the public mind far more, surely, than if she had been executed decades back.

Ultimately, the question on deterrence, assuming we do not mean by that the deterrence of recidivism, is not whether we as individuals would rather be imprisoned or executed, but whether people in general and people considering what are currently (or were) capital crimes would rather be imprisoned or executed, and whether the likelihood of one over the other is likely to deter people from attempting to commit crime more successfully. I ask again, does anybody (from the US, I would imagine) have data on the incidence of such crimes, say, per capita, in states with similar demographics but different attitudes to capital punishment?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:12 / 02.12.02
can you name any one who was exectued in the last ten trials in this country that ended with a death sentence?

Here's a complete list for 1932 up to the death penalty's abolition, part of an Excellent site on the death penalty in Britain.

(Interesting to note that James Doohan, who played Scotty on STAR TREK, was apparently hanged in 1954. And one John Constantine got it in 1960. Bastard no doubt deserved it.)
 
 
Char Aina
15:04 / 02.12.02
i guess i should be using sarcasm brackets.
i was taking the piss out of you (yes, badly, fair enough.) and your ridiculous assertion that i thought killers would seek revenge for their execution. that was what i was calling transparent, becaus to me you were plainly being obtuse.

i really do think that the image we have of hindley, although a dangerous nutter(or easily led fool), is one of an old lady dying.

i think the fact that the last executions were a while ago was why i was moved to write or even, to be more recent, in the states?
...but i might be wrong.

i was also not really interested in where i could research this, more pointing out that it is not commonand/or general knowledge. which , in the case of haus, i am wrong about.




did you already know all of those details? or did you find them out prior to posting?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:09 / 02.12.02
I suspect that who we recall is dependent on the amount of media coverage they get and not their imprisonment or death. Who do I recall? From this country Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, the West's, Harold Shipman and Ruth Elis. These names belong to people who have been in and out of the papers constantly for (just about) the last ten years and all of them are British. The debate about the death penalty surrounds each of them whether they are dead or alive but that really doesn't matter, the press has chosen them because of the stories, we would have constant images of them whether they were living or killed.
 
 
Char Aina
15:18 / 02.12.02
a fast lived, good looking corpse would make a better image to parade, though.

rather than a sad old man/woman
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:34 / 02.12.02
I didn't know the date of the Homicide Act, just that it was after Ruth Elis and before the last hanging; otherwise, yeah, I don't know if that's common knowledge anymore but I knew the names and dates. Regarding the "good-looking corpse" - as i mentioned, the picture of bleach-blond Hindley is iconic; it doesn't really matter that she died an emphysemic brunette when the original vintage is staring outof every red top front page or being exhibited in "Sensation". Likewise, the picture we have of Fred West is not how he looked when he died. It is the photo chosen as most suggestive of Fred Westness by the press. Does anyone know what Rose West looks like now?

I don't think that that in itself is enough to make a convincing case for imprisonment being a more successful deterrent than execution. If you just want to say that you personally would rather be executed than imprisoned, then well and good, but that's not really a generalisable principle.
 
 
Char Aina
16:56 / 02.12.02
you know whö:

I guess its hard to prove, but i think the iconic status of brady/hindley would be more so if they had been killed. It makes it so much easier if the people you want to deify/demonise are not able to fill in any background on your propaganda.

Its as hard to prove as a preventative cure.

But i think what you say is not borne out by any studies; i think you are taking your belief and weighing the likeliehood of it being less true than mine.
The problem with that is, as you are no doubt aware, you are someone with a far more confident rhetorical style, and with far more patience for/speed at typing than I.

i am not saying 'blast your flashy arguing', no. i dont think its that special, nor do i think its altogether convincing in itself. i do think, however, i would not defend myself against you in a court of law, even if i were innocent.














(why does it always seem to end up being about your approach? i certainly did not intend to bring it to this, but now that i think about it, it does always seem to go this way... but then i am sure there is a flaw in me that causes it.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:25 / 02.12.02
Yes. There is. You are advancing your own opinion, based on personal prejudice, and using a series of inappropriate analogies and wild rationalisations to justify it. Then, when unable to defeat ideas not your own with the confidence you originally claimed, you are dropping out of the argument completely and instead talking about the other people (or in this case person) in the thread.

That is a flaw. Specifically, it is a flaw called "threadrot".

So, to get back on topic, let's assume for a second that it is easier to make a symbol out of somebody who is dead than it is from somebody who is alive but incarcerated. What is the consequence of that in terms of jurisprudence? Are you suggesting that this should be a deciding factor in whether or not to execute somebody - whether they will subsequently be easier to make into a martyr?

In the case of, say, Salvador Allende I would say you had a point; there is a dilemma there between killing him, and thus creating a martyr, or imprisoning him, and thus creating a locus for dissent and a clear objective (free Salvador Allende) for opposition ideologies.

But that is the case of a political prisoner, not a felon in the sense that we have been looking at it so far. Is, say, Fred West any more iconic than Harold Shipman or, for that matter, Myra Hindley, just because he died shortly after his imprisonment, as he might have had he been sentenced to death by a court in the 50s? And if he is, what does that signify? Is this more likely to inspire people to take up sex crimes and serial killing, as Allende's martyrdom might have inspired people to take up the cause of left-wing, anti-American politics in Chile? I don't follow why this would be an argument for or against the death penalty.

Your other thread is that death is preferable to life imprisonment, at least for you. Let's assume for a moment that this *is* universalisable, and that anyone would rather die than spend their life in prison. The first, obvious statement is that there are plenty of ways to end one's life in prison with a bit of ingenuity. But let's assume that suicide is worse than both judicial execution and life imprisonment. In that case, if we are claiming that the death penalty is barbaric or inhumane, then we must accept that life imprisonment, being more unpleasant and undesirable, is *more* barbaric and inhumane. Therefore, no civilised society should dirty its hands and souls by imprisoning felons for life.

There are two possible objections to this position that I can think of offhand. One is that the death penalty is irreversible, whereas life imprisonment is reversible. The other is that execution is in fact worse than life imprisonment. Would you like to take either of these, or is there another option?
 
 
Char Aina
20:19 / 02.12.02
so, we all run and hide at the power of your truths?


never mind then.
im schooled.



as to the argument over the death penalty, i really cant be bothered. yes, i am giving up. i forefit, i lose, whatever the deal.
i am unable/willing to do enough research, and rather than educate me, you are attempting(and oft succeeding to) just tear at/apart my arguments.

thank you.

now tell me what you think, and i will read it in awed and hushed reverence.
and not respond.


this is not a joke, and i am not trying to get you to flame on. i am bored of this is all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:00 / 02.12.02
If you aren't interested in discussing the issue in the topic abstract, and you aren't willing to make the effort either to check some facts or actually think about the issues, or even both, then I'm afraid I don't think you'll have much fun.

We are all trying to educate each other, or make each other think, or just give each other an awareness that there are other ways to think about things, around here, all the time, as far as I can tell. Sometimes in the process of doing this we disagree, or get into almighty slap fights. If you are so upset at having your arguments torn apart, then work on better arguments, or stop claiming you can disprove any claim supporting capital punishment without breaking a sweat and listen to some of the thoughts going around. Or stop whining, or if you must whine do it by Private Message. But don't expect people to accept your beliefs uncritically. If you want that, try here. Many Barbeloids speak very highly of it.

Now, I hope that your voice from the creche has not derailed the discussion.
 
 
Slim
00:20 / 03.12.02
You two have definately sucked the life out of the argument. I place most of the blame on toksik because Haus is right, he came sauntering in without actually being able to back up his claims. It takes a lot for me to say this considering the fact that most of the time I think Haus acts like the Asshole Supreme.

Anyways Haus, I'm glad to see you're addressing a point I brought up earlier. I think that there's a 3rd option. It's not the finality of death row or the execution itself that makes capital punishment worse than life imprisonment but Death Row. Inmates on the row have even less priviledges than inmates in other sections of the prison. Less exercise and far less human contact, even the visual kind. It's a dehumanizing process that mentally kills the inmates long before they ever get to the chair or the chamber. Most prisoners go to their execution like lambs to the slaughter because they were begging to die years ago and every day since then was pointless. There's no point to living if you're living to die. Perhaps it's not so odd that the death penalty would be much more humane if it happened quickly after sentencing, although this would surely increase the number of innocent people put to death.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:33 / 03.12.02
Indeed. It does seem that the entire process is designed to make life yet more unpleasant for the inmate> the average time spent on Death row is - what? - about nine years? It's a vaguely remembered figure, so it could well be wrong. But that's nine years of living on the brink of death. Which is, as I believe you mentioned earlier, extremely expensive, with the lengthy processes of legal challenge - how much does it actually cost the state (who are, presumably, often funding both sides of the process - appeal and condemnation) to kill somebody? As you say, if you were prepared to be a little faster and looser with actual guilt then it would be easier and cheaper to send people off, but then you would have to admit that your system was prepared to execute people at a far earlier and thus perhaps more imcompelte level of certainty.

On a subsidiary note, I'm still strugglign to understand *why* the imposition of the death penalty appears to be a political bonus. GW Bush Jr. and his cousin Jeb have both, as governors, been responsible for the execution of a lot of people, yes? I sort of assume that in this country even those who support the return of capital punishment would be a bit icked out by the peple who zealously imposed it (the appointed hangman in Britain was respected, but generally not much liked). Likewise, the attempts in this country to return various offences to the status of "capital murder" (the last one being in the 90s, trying to make the murder of a police officer in the execution of duty a capital offence) generally just highlighted what weird, marginalised little freaks tended to favour the return of capital punishment (although Thatcher, a weird little freak but for a long itme a far from marginalised one, was among them).

Why are things so different in the USA?
 
 
Slim
04:04 / 03.12.02
I read on a website a couple years ago that the average cost to execute someone is just over $1,000,000 whereas life imprisonment is between $500-600,000. However, I must point out that this was on an anti-death penalty website. It sounds about right though because you're correct in that the state pays the court fees because most of the time the inmates are too poor to afford an attorney. Also, death row really is a separate unit. Separate housing and separate guards. The guards the inmates interact with on a daily basis for 10 years are so are also the ones that pull the switch or push the button. This creates a process where the guards try to distance themselves from the inmates so they don't feel bad when they kill them but this further dehumanizes the inmates. It's a bad cycle.
I'm not sure what the average wait on death row is but I would guess that a large part of it depends on how much of a fight one puts up. The fewer the appeals the quicker the process (quick being relative, I suppose). I will say this- prisoners aren't allowed to quicken the process by suicide. Apparently there was an inmate who kept trying to kill himself. They ended up keeping him in a straightjacket. Imagine how powerless that would make one feel. Sorry bud, you can't kill yourself because we want you around for when we fry you 5 years from now.

I'll try and tackle the real issues of why capital punishment might be seen as a benefit tomorrow. My bed is calling me. I must point out that Texas is an anomally when it comes to executions. There are all sorts of horror stories coming out of Texas- men being sentenced to death when their attorneys fall asleep AT THE DESK DURING THE TRIAL, Bush laughing in the face of someone strapped down in the injection chamber, etc. More tomorrow.
 
 
Turk
04:24 / 03.12.02
The last British politician I heard talking about this was TV's Ann Widdecombe. She chose to do so during the hystericals of the aftermath of the Soham murders, said she wanted a sombre discussion on the subject. The boos she then faced from her colleagues, priceless!
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:44 / 03.12.02
Why are things so different in the USA?

The USA is a another country. They do things differently there.

Literary pretensions aside, off the top of my head, policies are more influenced by public opinion than ours and they have no whips in Washington. They also have states' rights, over which (or partly at least) they once fought a civil war, so not many are keen to rock that boat.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:56 / 03.12.02
Well, in 'Bowling for Columbine' Michale Moore is advocating the 'people are just scared' theory for gun deaths, and a common reaction in times of high paranoia, stress and dicky tummies is an increase in either/or thinking, certainly a lot of the 'we love our guns' community in the film acted as though 'bad' people came from somewhere else (I don't mean another country, but almost like another reality) entirely, and it wasn't possible that 'one of us' could become 'one of them'.

The point? Shit, you got me there. Oh yeah, stress levels go up, people turn to binary thinking, the Old Testament forms the backdrop to the moral code over there, eye for an eye.
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:43 / 03.12.02
... the Old Testament forms the backdrop to the moral code over there, eye for an eye.

I think it does here too, though not so obviously because we are less overtly religious. Given the chance to vote for its reintroduction, the majority over here would also support the death penalty (pick a poll), which is why the question is never asked.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:58 / 03.12.02
Ah, but it is. There were several attempts to reintroduce the death penalty for anumber of offences throughout the last three decades, the last one being in either 94 or 97, I think. The death penalty was not abolished until the signing of the Human Rights Act in 1998, just very highly specialised - you could still be executed for treason or arson in Her Majesty's shipyards. The question of broadening the range of capital crimes was never put to a public vote, but then neither were decisions about joining the ERM or going to war against Iraq.

In general, though, he's absolutely right - the parliamentary dmeocracy in the UK stands against the will of the people on this one. Which forces the democratic middle-class liberal towards two difficult propositions. Either the institutions of the parliament are intended not to facilitate the will of the people but to protect against it, or politicians, although venal, immature and malicious, are less venal, immature and malicious than the people they represent.
 
 
MJ-12
14:46 / 04.12.02
Which forces the democratic middle-class liberal towards two difficult propositions.

If you restate it like so

the institutions of the parliament are intended not to facilitate the will of the people but to protect against it, because politicians, although venal, immature and malicious, are less venal, immature and malicious than the people they represent.

the two propositions dovetail quite nicely.
 
  

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