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Barbe-Lexicon

 
  

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ynh
06:32 / 02.07.01
Significant usage issues have arisen lately, prompting my own searches for meanings and etymology. Particularly charged jargon like “politically correct” and “feminazi” made me wonder if Barbelith would benefit from a generalized Lexicon thread.

I found a site that claims the OED defines politically correct as: a body of liberal or radical opinion, esp. on social matters, characterized by the advocacy of approved causes or views, and often by the rejection of language, behaviour, etc. considered discriminatory or offensive.

The site also claims the term was first used in 1789, to precisely clarify the difference between “United States” and “people of the United States.” The OED usage apparently arose circa 1970, and persisted into the 80’s.

Peter Ives notes that charged debates between feminist and marxist scholars over which analytical perspective – gender-based or class-based – was more correct institutionalized the term. conservatives (admittedly also a charged term) skillfully twisted the meaning into what we see today, a parody of the OED definition centered on the derision of “approved causes or views.” In 1977 the New York Times first used politically correct to paraphrase a radical statement, and the abbreviation PC was apparently first used by The Washington Post in 1986.

quote:Peter Ives, “In Defense of Jargon” 1997
With the clever manipulation of the term 'politically correct,' the Right has managed to get many people on the Left to tacitly accept its logic. The only thing that all the perspectives that are slandered with the term 'politically correct' have in common is that conservatives are against them. It is only from a conservative perspective that a concept of 'politically correct' as a derogatory epithet makes sense. In the past, the fact that these diverse struggles have common enemies has been used positively to build alliances. But for the past decade, partially due to successful use of jargon, conservatives have used this one attribute to slag a host of progressive movements and pit them against one another. This overtly political perspective has been smuggled into everyone's minds and language including not only the mainstream of society, but also Left, progressive people. Without thinking about it, we strengthen the worldview that we oppose by using its language. But we can also learn from this example how a well-placed phrase can do so much work in changing how people view the world. . We need to take heed of this example, and follow it for our own purposes.


We know who we are; we who have used and debated the term. And hopefully we can put it to rest. It belongs to the Right and it oughtta stay over there. Presumably the Left, from liberal through progressive to radical, might benefit from defining new terms and appropriating old ones.

1) Can we start with Queterosexual? Is the word useful, beautiful, valid, already in use? And what does it mean?

2) ‘Queering’ pronouns: Kate Bornstein suggested, in Gender Outlaw, the use of the gender-neutral pronoun hir, widely in use on the board, and from personal experience is acceptable within the academy. Bornstein also suggested ze (in place of he or she), a somewhat less appealing term. S/he is similarly unappealing, but better than ze, he or she, she, or alternatiung between the terms. Does anyone know which, if any, are in use; particularly within feminist and queer communities.

3) Do y’all think this is worth doing?

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: [Your Name Here] ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:27 / 02.07.01

1) Can we start with [b]Queterosexual
? Is the word useful, beautiful, valid, already in use? And what does it mean?[/b]

man, thanks for asking. I've seen that word come up a bunch of times, and I've been wondering myself. I've looked it up on Google, and nothing comes up. Where does this word come from? It must be new, right?

I'm supposing that it's some kind of hybrid of Queer and Heterosexual, but what connotations does it have? Does it mean 'bisexual'? Does it mean sexual ambiguous? Does it mean some kind of mixed sexuality vibe, as in it represents both hetero and homosexual views?

I'd love to know.
 
 
deletia
12:38 / 02.07.01
I think I coined it. As for what it means - I think Rosa saved the thread which discussed it. When she or Jackie have a moment, could they rummage through it and whack some stuff up?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:04 / 02.07.01
think i've got it somewhere, will dig it out. but wasn't it basically a new word coined in an attempt to discuss what a queer heterosexuality might be/consist of?

an exploratory term rather than a definition?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:22 / 02.07.01
I'll happily use s/he in chat like this, but I won't use it or any other created pronoun in creative writing. It just breaks up the flow. However, sooner or later either one will enter common use from other kinds of writing or the issue will lose charge and the problem will be solved.
 
 
janosch
23:10 / 05.07.01
Perhaps not entirely relevant to this thread, but I have some observations from Japanese that are interesting if you're into psycholinguistics...


In Japanese there have traditionally always been quite distinct ways of speaking for men and women - broadly speaking:

Women tend to use "polite" (desu/-masu) forms of verbs and use gender-neutral (eg. "watashi") or specifically feminine (eg. "atashi") words for "I".

Men (outside very formal situations) will prefer "plain" forms of verbs and use masculine first person pronouns* (eg. "boku", "ore"). Using polite forms and neutral pronouns with peers is considered effeminate.

In addition, there are several gender-specific words which add emphasis to a sentence in some way, eg:
F: "wa","kashira","no"
M: "zo","na","kai"

Recently these norms are being increasingly broken down, particularly in urban areas. Young women will speak to their peers (F or M) in plain form. Young men no longer use "masculine" forms for questions - these have been almost completely replaced by the "feminine" form ("no?") in casual speech. I have even heard a (straight) female friend use the masculine pronoun "boku" to refer to herself on more than one occasion, something that other Japanese people have trouble believing when I tell them!

All of this convergence is resulting in a sort of homogeneous metropolitan dialect that distorts gender boundaries in ways that are probably very alarming to the older generation. It will be interesting to see if the Japanese language continues to change to a more gender-egalitarian form, or if it will itself be a barrier to equality in what is still a very sexist society.**

* Japanese pronouns are not equivalent to what we understand by pronouns in European languages as they function much more like nouns, eg. they cannot be repeated twice in the same sentence.

** By way of illustration, the characters "inside" and "house" together have the meaning of "wife" ("kanai"), and although this word and others like it are disfavoured, they are by no means unused.
 
 
SMS
00:51 / 06.07.01
quote:3) Do y’all think this is worth doing?
I don't. I have only met one person who prefered the sexually neitral terms to the his, him he convention. I'm not really satisfied with any of the alternatives that have been offered, no one seems to be dreadfully offended. Maybe someone here could correct me on this?

When I start to think about why we would wish to change to the neutral terms, it really doesn't make sense to me. I do believe language affects strongly the way we think, but when I look at the context of its use, it never seems to imply that women are excluded from the statement. We will form a sentence, saying that a genralized "he" does something. But the action itself has no bearing on whther the "he" will be used or the "she" will be used. Even actions that might be considered somewhat feminine are, according to the traditional rule, done by a "he," unless the specific sex of the actor is known. So what claim is there that says that the "he" is discriminatory? Is it to say that all actions of women are simply disregarded? Is this type of language likely to make us consider women non-entities, since something which cannot interact with the world strictly does not exist? To me, this sounds so far from anything I've ever believed that I have great difficulty taking it seriously.

I rarely use the sexually neutral terms "hir", "s/he" (& I've never heard of xe<---how is this pronounced?) Now, I don't want to offend people (although I don't go terribly out of my way to avoid it), but what I would hate is to be misunderstood. I would hate for people to think that I use the convention as a sign of disrespect to women, or feminists. And if I ever get the impression that this is what people think, I will change.

Regarding questerosexual, I think it's a very aesthetically appealing word, and I hope that it creeps outside the walls of barbelith... eventually.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:55 / 06.07.01
Queterosexual was about asking whether or not it was possible for 'heterosexual' people to be 'queer' in the sense of queer being in opposition to straight (challenging vs not challenging sexual categories).
 
 
methylsalicylate
08:40 / 06.07.01
quote:
Queterosexual was about asking whether or not it was possible for 'heterosexual' people to be 'queer' in the sense of queer being in opposition to straight (challenging vs not challenging sexual categories).

So, (and I missed the original discussion; please excuse me if covering well-trod territory), it's therefore possible for homosexuals to be 'not queer'?
 
 
methylsalicylate
08:45 / 06.07.01
doh. thick. apologies.
 
 
deletia
08:45 / 06.07.01
And I'm not sure a polar opposition of straight/queer is quite the angle of entry adopted. One interestiung thing about the Queterosexuality thread, and its "Boring Lesbian Boys" spin-off was the alacrity with which some of the men involved set up a polar opposition of themselves and the rough boys, which, while on e avenue of exploration, I don;t think shoudl be held up as the only possible way of mediating the irruption (or intrusion) of queer heterosexuality or queer heterosex.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:45 / 06.07.01
quote:Originally posted by SMatthewStolte:
When I start to think about why we would wish to change to the neutral terms, it really doesn't make sense to me. I do believe language affects strongly the way we think, but when I look at the context of its use, it never seems to imply that women are excluded from the statement. We will form a sentence, saying that a genralized "he" does something.


I don't agree with this, and will try and post a more coherent reason why later. For the moment, I'll point out that the generalized "he" can have very 'real' gender-specific consequences.

For example, the Swiss Constitution uses the generalized "he" to refer to citizens of Switzerland - and this, among other things, was used as a tactic to deny women in Switzerland the vote until (I think) *1976*. Constitutional lawyers were able to argue that in this case the generalized 'he' did *not* include the feminine.

Otherwise, one argument I can think of against the use of the masculine as the 'neutral' pronoun is the unsettling effect that is still produced for me by the use of the feminine in, eg, philosophical texts referring to 'an agent' or whatever. It's this shock effect that has made me realize how much is at stake when one assumes that the masculine category is the human category, and the feminine category is specific to women.
 
 
deletia
08:45 / 06.07.01
Absolutely. I can sympathise with Nick's argument that degendered or polygenered pronouns can feel unnatural, but sometimes what is held up to be "natural" is also dangeorus, unhealthy and (generally) instinctively privileges the prevailing structure of power.

That, it could be argued, is what nature is, and why one should be suspicious of it. And to argue that there is nothing phallocentric in assuming that any agent is by default male is to admit, surely, that one cannot see that prevailing structure of power for exactly the same reason that you cannot see your own lungs?
 
 
Cat Chant
21:56 / 08.07.01
Which makes me think (cf also my rant in the 'marriage = dead?' thread) that an important purpose of a barbelexicon would be to list "danger words" - words that if you catch yourself using them you should start thinking about what political relations are being obscured behind said words. (God, my grammar's good.)

Top of my hit list here would be "natural", of course. I'd also be interested in adding "love" since the last time I looked at the "first love" thread no-one was listing "my mum" or "my first cat" or "that Diana Wynne Jones book that turned my head inside-out when I was eight" or "my teddy bear" or "Blake's 7". But that might just be me.

Maybe even "gender", if you think of Derrida's "The Law of Genre" and Donna Haraway's "Gender for a Marxist Dictionary" which both point out the varying meanings of "gender" which implicate race, literary genre, grammatical gender, etc... Oh, and "race", of course, which implies a genetic/natural component to something which strikes me as being mostly culturally-historically produced. Both those words are useful shorthand, though, whereas I think "natural" is a dangerous shorthand for "historically produced and almost certainly oppressive".

"The Herd"/"Sheep"/"Daily Mail Readers" is another candidate but has been discussed enough to not need to be put on the lexicon, maybe.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:20 / 09.07.01
quote: So, (and I missed the original discussion; please excuse me if covering well-trod territory), it's therefore possible for homosexuals to be 'not queer'?

Yes - absolutely. The concept (which is not an astonishingly new one) indicated that a person who shagged people of their own gender but who challenged the biological 'typing' of person according to same would be considered queer, whereas one who accepted the role assigned to them would in a sense be a 'straight homosexual'. I always had slight problems with this conceptualisation as the queer homosexual tag or the queer heterosexual tag seemed to me to be kind of oxymoronic...
 
 
No star here laces
12:53 / 09.07.01
Um...

Suggestion for more words/terms:

4) Subversive

5) Reactionary
 
 
Not Here Still
16:22 / 09.07.01
from the Bootleg OED:

lex-i-con ['leksIk@n] n. 1 a dictionary, esp. of Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, or Arabic. 2 the vocabulary of a person, language, branch of knowledge, etc. [mod.L f. Gk lexikon (biblion book), neut. of lexikos f. lexis word f. lego speak]

from [YNH]

3) Do y’all think this is worth doing?

Well, it's an interesting exercise. But what do we want to do with the Lexicon? Is it being created so that we all understand each other's vocabulary, use of words and so on?

Great. I'll never say no to anything which means I'll learn something. And anything which expands my vocabulary is all right, because it needs all the help it can get...

I'm also always up for things like learning a new and clever way to say mediocre, or interesting slang terms, or just new concepts I haven't considered.

However, if this is going to happen, is there any way that it can end up more than a thread? I don't have the tech know-how, but surely there could be some way of doing it, and allowing it to be added to when new terms come along. I think such an idea could be a great resource.

Having said that, I'm uneasy with the idea that the lexicon would be a guide for the *right* or *wrong* words to use.

I like my words to have a number of multiple meanings, I realise that my opinions are opinions, not necessarily the truth, and I don't like the idea that we should all be speaking the same way.

But hell, tell me if you disagree...
 
 
Mordant Carnival
13:21 / 22.07.01
I don't really feel the need for a unisex pronoun. But I rather like "per", which I discovered in a novel.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:14 / 22.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:
I don't really feel the need for a unisex pronoun.


But surely the point is that not everybody has this luxury: some people do feel the need for a unisex pronoun, in some cases because the one that currently exist do not adequately describe them...

On a related note, there's a fantastic article on gender and pronouns here (Makezine.org is rapidly becoming my favourite new website in aaaaages...):

quote:there is no innocence nor insignificance to the mistake of ‘she’ for ‘he’ when referring to a person who has chosen to take on a ‘wrong’ pronoun. even if it is done thoughtlessly, that thoughtlessness comes from and supports the two cardinal rules of gender: that all people must look like the gender (one out of a possible two) they are called by, and that gender is fixed and cannot be changed. each time this burden shifting occurs, the non-trans person affirms these gender rules, playing by them and letting me know that they will not do the work to see the world outside of these rules.

[ 22-07-2001: Message edited by: The Flyboy ]
 
 
Cat Chant
18:15 / 22.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Mordant Carnival:
I don't really feel the need for a unisex pronoun. But I rather like "per", which I discovered in a novel.


Ooh! Ooh! "Woman at the Edge of Time", right? I just finished that yesterday! I loved it! Luciente is fiiine!

Overexcited again now.
 
 
ynh
18:54 / 22.07.01
I think I owe some sort of debt to Flyboy for defending threads I neglect or something.

The issue of non-gendered language is pretty invisible in English (for more of the same, see Jackie's Karl Marx With a Hard On, Ganesh's Public Display of Emotion), which is what makes this important. Haus and Deva dig right in and attack the normalization of gender/gendered language/heterosexual dichotomy. That also defines the sort of lazy "I don't see it as a problem" sort of resistance evinced above.

The academy's pretty forgiving, so students should have no problem with hir; I didn't. I've yet to use "ze," but s/he works just fine; I even no prof's who advocate it. It also shouldn't be too much of a pain in the ass for professional writing. Nick makes a decent point about creative writing, though, and it may extend to certain political spaces.

Queer text is very invested in highlighting m/m or f/f pairings, so it might be a mistake to deny, at this point in such a context, gendered pronouns. On the other hand, when the subject is gender neutral, it makes sense to deploy gender neutral terminology.

Ty/Brother/Simon: play nice, try providing definitions for your suggestions, you silly goose.

reactionary = change is bad... gets thrown around too much as a term for "your position does not advocate enough change." We have a term for that, already, conservative. Of course, since liberal and conservative have both been narrowed so as to be identical economically, and very close socially, it's easy to see why there's some confusion. ?

The other one is probably garbage. From the right, subversive elements are a danger to society. From the left, we should just reclaim deviance and terrorist; social and economic respectively. So queer, fat, ugly, dirty are deviant behaviors. Bombing, protesting, theft are terrorist activities. For... unclear... activities I've seen 'refunctioning' used: postering, the stuff Hakim Bey later called poetic terrorism... any thoughts?

Anyone know the gender neutral for sir/mam?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:19 / 23.07.01
A gender neutral term for Sir/Ma'am. Interesting. I haven't found one. But maybe I'll see if I can hunt one up....

I have a general definition for 'reactionary', and it has far less to do with left or right political conviction than a way in which people can get mired in simply reacting to the things they don't like, instead of being proactive in creating visions, goals, political objectives. Thus, a lot of the so-called 'right' are not at all reactionary; rather they are more radical. And a lot of the left are reactionary.

(This seems like a fairly simplistic definition but i can be far more useful than simply labelling the right as reactionary. Which I hear quite a lot.)
 
 
ephemerat
07:47 / 23.07.01
Rosa: Absolutely – great point. This is one of the many cases in which a concept is inaccurately ascribed to right or left-Wing politics and, I think, highlights exactly how constraining and (ultimately) redundant that R/L division has become. Or how artificial it always was (but then I’m becoming less of a fan of dialectics with every passing year).

[YNH]: I’d also add that having both terms is of real importance because they describe different forms of behaviour and (again) my current obsession - connotations. A large number of people are proud to be conservative because it doesn’t simply imply a resistance to change; it can also represent wisdom, experience and prudence – a willingness to maintain useful traditions in the face of fads and fashions, a reverence for history and an attempt to apply its lessons in a competent and rational manner to contemporary issues. Reactionary behaviour on the other hand is an unthinking, knee-jerk response to any new experience or idea – there is no evaluation, no cognition.

Also concepts like ‘subversion’ and ‘deviancy’ are drawn in contrast with societal norms, values and power structures and again can be used in reference to believers in either right or left-wing politics. Let’s not forget the fact that there are large numbers of right-wing thinkers who are itching to destroy the status quo and remake the world in their mind’s own image as well.
 
 
ynh
09:35 / 25.07.01
Brief burst of activity anyway. I wasn't suggesting using the terms specifically to define a right-left spectrum. Thanks for thoughts on it, though...

My new one:

Tolerant/Tolerence

I'd go grab some quotes but I'd rather see what y'all think.
 
 
Margin Walker
09:35 / 25.07.01
A gender neutral term for Sir/Ma'am.

Funny. "Yo" or "Hey You" works for me. Who says it needs to be in a formal, genteel context? Like You Am I once sang "There's no need to be so fuckin' polite."
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:35 / 25.07.01
[threadrot]
...and with that, Tim Rogers becomes a theoretician.

Well, the Hourly, Daily version, anyway.

You rock, MW.
[/threadrot]
 
 
YNH
16:49 / 28.08.01
fictor:

1. one who shapes and fashions

Will this do for chucking the scare quotes around "writer," "author," or whatever while retaining some of the everyday speaking as fictive action stuff and leaving writer as a privileged position?
 
 
RiffRaff
18:36 / 28.08.01
I'm a bit late on this topic, but when I was participating in a Nomic game elsewhere on the 'net, we used the Spivak set of gender-neutral pronouns: e, em, eir, eirs, emself - basically, singular forms of the words they, them, their, theirs, and themselves.

It works pretty well, once you're used to it. I still tend to use it for technical-style writing.

--Riff
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:57 / 17.12.01
Here's a good one:

pretentious

Would someone like to disagree with me if I claim that what people inevitably mean when they call something pretentious is "I don't understand it, therefore I must rubbish it"?
 
 
Not Here Still
16:23 / 17.12.01
OK. I will.

For me, it means 'I understand it. But It's overblown, often dull, over-confident of its own importance and annoying.'

I don't doubt that there are instances where misunderstood things are dismissed as 'pretentious' but to suggest in such a sweeping generalisation that everything which is called pretentious is misunderstood is a bit excessive.

Take, for instance, an idea someone I knew had for a film when I was in college with him.

It was a fairly direct rip-off of Resevoir Dogs' warehouse torture scene, except that at the end the torturee(?) turned to the camera and started saying things like 'This is all your fault, the viewer. That's why I'm here - and I'm not real, you know.'*

I'd seen it done before, and better. I understood the idea behind it.

Didn't stop it being as pretentious as Hell....

*[edited to add: and It wasn't the Knowledge, neither.]

[ 17-12-2001: Message edited by: Not Me Again ]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:38 / 21.12.01
A gender neutral term for Sir/Ma'am.

Sam?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:04 / 22.12.01
That Sam-I-Am!
That Sam-I-Am!
I do not like that Sam-I-Am!

But do you like Green Eggs and Ham?

Where Seuss and Theory collide.

OK. Rot over.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:06 / 25.05.04
BOOM! Because that first section on "political correctness" ought to be required reading before anyone uses the term here. And because the term "feminazi" has cropped up again and I guess we ought to discuss it. Personally I'd go with a paraphrase of something Haus said elsewhere: "n., a shorthand way of implying that radical feminism is bad, mmmkay?"
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:54 / 25.05.04
Not only bad, but somehow dictatorial and totalitarian, oppressing the God-given rights of men/the predominant culture to objectify women and deny them equality.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:02 / 25.05.04
Actually, I had quite a lengthy PM correspondence attempting to explain, among other things, why use of the term "feminazi" might predispose others to give your utterances less credence - with the permission of my interlocutor, I could cobble together something forom that - PM me?
 
  

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