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Ultimates #7

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yawn - thing's buddy

07:04 / 04.11.02

Falk: you obviously don’t remember Fiends of The Eastern Front.

Tharg had us rooting for a nazi soldier!

It was either Hans Shmidt or Captain Constanza, the snidey Romanian vampire.

The Natural Way

07:44 / 04.11.02

Gerg, I think Millar is going to go for the it's-really-dodgy-pitting-Cap-against-a-civilian-because-he's-a-rock-hard-marine-trained-to-kill angle. I think, in order to make this point, Hank has to take some kind of beating. And has his body even recovered enough yet for him to pull off a height multiplication? If he can't do that, he's fucked. But, anyway, we're not supposed to be thinking "Great! Kill him, Cap!" Millar's fully aware of how dangerous and scary the super soldier should be.....

And, c'mon, this is Barbelith - how misinformed do you guys want to be? Runce-geek to the rescue:

Millar has stated categorically (over on his web-site) that Jemas and co. specifically recommended the Skrulls and Kree be ommited from the Ultiverse, and that, on reflection, he decided to go with them. The alien threat may be based loosely on Marvel's favourite intergalactic assholes, but, ostensibly, the idea's that the Ultimate littlegreenbastards should be completely original, w/out the usual head-nod to the regular line.

08:24 / 04.11.02

Of course, but if Marvel Boy is indeed the first Ultimate title, Kree's are present in the Ultimate U.

yawn - thing's buddy

08:51 / 04.11.02

inside knowledge says its still up in the air.

but we all know it really was the first title in the line.

The Natural Way

09:48 / 04.11.02

Marvel Boy isn't from the Ultimate U, though, is he? He and the rest of the crew "crash land" in the Ultiverse.

So clears that up then.

Oh, but then there's Midas's Kree, Skrull and Badoon trophies... Fuck it - just put it down to a continuity error. Whatever...Yr not going to see Ultimate Super Skrull any time soon. Sorry.

Personally, I don't give a shit. Give me a big fight and I'm happy.

13:19 / 04.11.02

Yawnster, sorry - I meant superhero comics never used to be like this.

I don't care what we're supposed to be thinking, Runcey, because I am thinking: "Cummmon!! You Republican hardcunt - rattle him! Aye, right in the puss."

I read about Marvel Boy being an Ultimate title in Wizard (didn't buy it, like.) Wizard is a liar and a whore.

Mind you - Captain Marvel, Avengers, Kree-Skrull war; Millar, Morrison. That'd be pretty smart indeed. And Marvel Boy could then die of cancer, cursing 'our' world.

And the (Ultimate) Fantastic Four? They were in one panel of MB, and referenced, constantly, by Midas.

But....

Midas stole Iron Man's original armour, and it was in the MU Iron Man annual, apparently.

So I think Noh-Varr done landed in the Marvel Universe.

Still, there's always Judd Winick's dimension-hopping Exiles. hahahahahahahahaha.

I hope not.

The Natural Way

13:53 / 04.11.02

The Ultimate MB thing originally wafted out of the Wizardarse, but has since been given the winky headnod by Morrison himself over at Newsarama. So there is something in it.

The Iron Man stuff (like the aforementioned alien trophies adorning Midas's...err...house[?]) is probably just a continuity error. And who gives a fuck if it is? I don't think Jemas and co. would knock the idea back because of that there lame duck, d'you?

yawn - thing's buddy

14:42 / 04.11.02

Well, I for one, could not stomach the Ultimates or Marvel Boy if their temporaral and spatial integrity were to be compromised by an Iron Man annual.

I just wouldn’t be able to take those titles seriously if they brazenly accommodate such oversights.

Would you?

Hahaha - mind you, I’d sorta like Marvel Boy to have droppppped into the Popuverse: a kind of idealised ultra-pop continuum distilled from pure ‘nowness’.

This continuum would be the front end of the Marvel multiverse: a shiny lolly to suck off while The Ultimates etc. (and the ‘old’ marvelverse) rumble and fart at the bottom of the slush machine.

Anyway….back to masterplanning a fuckin retail park (yawn)

Matthew Fluxington

15:24 / 04.11.02

Wow. This bit of this review of Ultimates #7 makes my head spin:

I loved Hitch’s The Authority, as well as his Stormwatch work. Hitch’s pencils during the seminal runs of both books delightfully hid the facist undertones to Warren Ellis’ writing. Hitch mixes the best aspects of the Hollywood action film with a wonderful expressiveness to create viceral action involving immediately empathetic characters, and his work on The Ultimates is no exception. Unlike The Authority, Hitch’s work is not hiding the dark undertones, but accentuating the essential goodness in many of the characters.

Essential goodness of MANY of the characters? I can't find "essential goodness" in ANY of the characters. It seems like he has it backwards - the Authority may be fascist, but they had a powerful and well-meaning idealism informing their actions, whereas every last character in The Ultimates is an evil thug, with the possible exception of Thor. I'd say the best thing about The Ultimates is that it's not much of a secret that the villains of the story are in fact the protagonists, and that's the way the Avengers really would be all along. They are evil, status-quo upholding bastards. They are thugs. Especially Captain America, the biggest thug of them all.

15:51 / 04.11.02

Marvel Boy is not the first Ultimate book. It was pretty much stand alone Marvel Knights. What they mean by "first Ultimate book" Is it was the first Marvel Comic to have that Ultimate sensibility. But he's not set in the Ultimate universe. Hell, in the beginning there wasn't supposed to be an Ultimate universe... the comics were supposed to be self-contained and not spill over at all.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

16:18 / 04.11.02

How is Captain America the biggest of thugs in this book? Sure he had a hand in contributing to the mockery that is the Post-Hulk Ultimates PR, but he is, without any kind of government steering, taking it upon himself to beat the living fuck out of a vicious piece of shit. Not all that evil. Thuggish, yes, but, in this instance, a good way. This is why superhero comics exist, right? To see people bigger and stronger than you do things you wish you could. Change the world, beat the fuck out of a wife beater, those sorts of things. (Not murder three hundred people. Not those sorts of things. The Cap sorts of things.)

Matthew Fluxington

17:03 / 04.11.02

Alright, so you're admitting that you agree that Captain America is a thug, but then you're confused about it?

Sorry, I'm just not very convinced that Captain America is in any way on a higher moral level than Hank Pym. Hank Pym beats his wife, Captain America brutalizes defenseless men because he's a sadist with VALUES. Pym deserves what's coming to him, but Captain America is just as worthy of a righteous beat-down himself, the smug fascist thug motherfucker that he is.

18:10 / 04.11.02

The Cap kicked a tossrag, responsible for 300 deaths, in the chops. To which I say: fuckin' right in!

Hank Pym is a shit.

I kind of want Marvel Boy to be MU, but I can see the advantages of Ultimate-ness.

Is Tony Stark a shit? How so? Janet Pym?

Come on, Fluxy - try harder.

18:32 / 04.11.02

Wow, Flux, I think that gets a lot closer to what I was thinking towards the end of the previous page (re: Cap) than what I wrote. Apparently I was lacking the words - or balls - to just state it so succinctly.

19:36 / 04.11.02

I don’t think it’s that easy. Captain America is an interesting character because he represents all of that ‘greatest generation’/‘we won WWII’ bullshit that we’re maybe kind of coming to grips w/ now. Not sure if he’s a thug, though. Are your grandparents thugs?

20:52 / 04.11.02

No, but they're physically weak.

The Natural Way

07:33 / 05.11.02

Yeah, Jan clearly isn't a shit. Stark clearly isn't a shit. Thor clearly isn't a shit. And Steve's just too hard to be as old fashioned as he is. Dangerous, yes, but hardly "evil". Thinking about it, you'd hardly describe Banner as evil - ridiculously insecure and self-pitying, maybe.

I'm not sure how you reach these conclusions, Flux, other than an overwhelming desire to find fault w/ the book.

yawn - thing's buddy

09:19 / 05.11.02

I kinda agree with flux bout Cap.
I’m not impressed with his actions thus far.
But he is a product of his times.
ie. simplistic.
He comes from an age when things were a lot blacker and a lot whiter.
Hence his rather dumb response to the wasp/giant man domestic.
But that kick to banners balls was gratuitous.
I like the contrast between this title and New Xmen.
Bruce Lee versus Rambo.
Anyway: maybe cap won’t bust hanks ass.
Maybe he’ll go talk to him.
That’d be interesting.
I can see tensions between Thor and Cap on the horizon.

The Natural Way

09:28 / 05.11.02

Talk to him? Are you joking, yawny?

yawn - thing's buddy

09:44 / 05.11.02

xavier's infected my attack systems.

no, i wasny joking.

but I'd like a surprise of some kind rather than the usual scrap.

I doubt there will be a technicolour battle anyway. It'll probably be off camera. (mostly)

10:05 / 05.11.02

Cap is a plain dumb autistic piece of an asshole super-thug. I think the book is pretty straight on this side of his portrait. And in any case, how can you disguise yourself as a country's flag every time you go into action? Nobody ever told him whatever happen in Japan when he was asleep in the ocean??

Tony and Thor may be probably the most "redeemable" characters in my opinion, and maybe Millar is saving some sort of redemption for Rogers too in the future.

The Natural Way

10:32 / 05.11.02

No, you see, as I pointed out above: Millar's enjoying playing w/ *the other*. This isn't just a vague surmise on my part - he says as much on his web site. And he has NO interest in playing those characters whose ideology he does not share as one dimensional thugs. We're not supposed to hate any of the characters, Seb, least of all Cap.

When Bucky's blathering and Cap just grabs him and hugs him, etc, etc, what are we supposed to be thinking? I'll give you a clue: it's not "You evil THUG!" Cap's constantly played as a sympathetic, complicated character...the idea that we're supposed to in some way dislike him is ridiculous.

And, Yawn, I really think Millar wants to show us just how frightening Cap can be - the Pym stuff can't be off panel. And, dramatically, what would be the point, anyway?

yawn - thing's buddy

11:15 / 05.11.02

runce: off panel stuff: I just reckon after the hulk fracau and then the g.man/wasp domestic it's unlikely we'll see a full blown scrap. If it happens, I'd imagine we'll see the events prior to and maybe just after the actual event. I don't mean we'll only hear about it through other characters referring to the incident or anything like that. i just don't expect to see a big scrap rendered on the page.

Dramatically this may be more powerful than 'Wham!' 'Pow!', 'take that you wifebeater!' (okay, I'm being very simplistic here)

Actually, I reckon this 'off panel' approach to both the graphics and dialogue would probably show 'just how frightening Cap can be' in a VERY dramatic manner.

I also feel it'd be a bit long winded as far as story telling goes. Y'know, uneconomical. We only get 23 pages of this every 3 months or whatever and to spend, what 10 pages, on a fight is probably not the best way to do it.

regarding cap giving Giant man a doing: Morally and narratively it's a bit dull too. Plodding? Yeah. A little.

Unless of course we see Captain America getting slapped about all over the place.

(with some new Hank Pym technology?)

We'll see.

I'll read all 7 issues this weekend and try and get a greater feel for the characters and their projected narratives.

I do like this comic.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

12:22 / 05.11.02

Okay. He's a thug because he beats people up instead of talking to them. That's sort of my dictionary definition. I had problems with your addition of the word "evil", which I've never seen Cap as, at least in this book. Sure, he's got the flag of a country with a very questionable history behind it on his chest, but he's supposed to represent the ideal of that country. Although it's plodding and more than a little slow-witted, the new Cap series illustrates this aspect well, that Steve has very little to do with his country's behind the scenes political dealings (and even less acceptance of it). He represents what America is supposed to be, even if it rarely turns out that way.

That sounds like a Post Office ad, doesn't it?

13:01 / 05.11.02

A lot of people I know are willing to dismiss the Cap, offhand, as an exemplar of cultural imperialism, or somesuch. The MU Cap, as Benjamin correctly states, is the American Ideal, as morally close to Superman (if not better - less of a Christ figure) as is possible. Earth X made me really love Cap, having read him very rarely prior.

The UU Cap is closer to America, as is. He's much more complex, and dubious. But this is classic Marvel isn't it? Fallible characters, who can be scary and wrong. Superhumans are scary, conceptually, aren't they though?

13:25 / 05.11.02

He [Cap] represents what America is supposed to be, even if it rarely turns out that way.

I would say: he is supposed to represent what America is supposed to be, but neither America nor Cap are what we see in Norman Rockwell's paintings. The moment where he kicks Banner's face reminded me of those all-over the world home videos showing american policemen hitting people. Not much of a difference.

I had problems with your addition of the word "evil", which I've never seen Cap as, at least in this book.

"Evil" is not much of a problem unless you are into religion. You will not solve world problems by getting rid of "evilness". Just change it for the word "Murder". Cap has not murdered anybody so far in the book. Can we say the same about any nation?

19:29 / 05.11.02

but the shield satellite was in marvel boy, and the bannermen, and the skrulls in the fantastic four issue of Uteam-up and ooh all sorts really...

i don't really like any of the characters: fury's a shit in Uspidey. stark's just some breadhead piss artist. thor's an eco-fascist[battlin' DNA/the biological world and the divine spark of creative chaos? wow hippy long hair doesn't make you a wimp no sir]. cap, obvious, mates with george w. giant man [or yellow jacket, as i prefer, great name] smug wifebeater. and i hate the wasp because i hate the normal universe wasp SO MUCH.

but they're all very cool, that the point no?

19:39 / 05.11.02

I'm with Runce on all this EvilCap nonsense. Flux, can you tell me you wouldn't have kicked a terrorist in his face on Sept 11th? This guy is a soldier and he just watched Banner kill a couple hundred people...and then stop and say "oops sorry." All this "Cap represents what American is supposed to be" stuff is being carried over from people reading the mainstream Marvel Universe. Ultimate Cap hasn't been presented as anything other than Americas premere soldier. Don't be suprised if he does kill someone along the way.

Anyway.

It looks like the lady in the purple hat is actually multiple people. On the page where Cap is talking to Bucky and Gail, the purple hat starts off behind Cap (on his left). In the next panel the woman has moved further away while Cap, Bucky and Gail stand on the stairs and talk. On the final panel of that page there is another woman in purple approaching them (its a different woman because she has a pony tail). In this pannel you can also see two other people with the same type of hat off to the sides at the corners of the word balloons. Hmm.

yawn - thing's buddy

19:53 / 05.11.02

purple? colour o' kings and queens innit?

and helmets.

lissen: my girlfriend's mum's best friend is called Shirley Purple.

crazy name huh?!

hoestly. it's true.

19:55 / 05.11.02

Purple hat people = Skrulls? Dirty, dirty reconnaisance Skrulls.

01:54 / 06.11.02

No no no.

What you're really thinking is: is the purple-hatted lady Kang the Conqueror?

Good question.

Sebastian: micro- and macro- cosm. Surely Ultimate Cap kicking Banner right in the coupon can be considered analogous (albeit controversially) to an event like the Gulf War.

The Natural Way

07:52 / 06.11.02

right: THERE ARE NO FUCKING SKRULLS.

The Natural Way

08:56 / 06.11.02

(I'm gonna be dead embarrased if Millar's done a U turn on the skrull thing)

yawn - thing's buddy

11:22 / 06.11.02

you'll have to change your name to skrunce as punishment.

Murray Hamhandler

15:39 / 06.11.02

If the FF issue of Ultimate Team-Up was Not a dream! Not a hoax!, then Skrulls are indeed part of the Ulty-Marvy universe. Whether they'll be used in Ultimates, whey-ul, that's a horse of a different color, I reckon.

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