BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Tumor linked to paedophile's behavior.

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Ganesh
15:59 / 25.01.03
There are certainly apocrine glands in armpits, face, nipples, anal and genital regions of both sexes, which become 'activated' at puberty - so the concept of a specifically 'pheromonal' smell seems pretty plausible to me.

Lurid: Like yourself, I'm sceptical of evolutional theory which attempts to do more than speculate on the impact of biology on social groupings; and, like science fiction, evolutionary psychology invariably tells us more about contemporary cultural assumptions/obsessions than past ones. The 'Selfish Gene' strand is certainly influential and seems intuitive, but I would hesitate to base too much on the concept that men are invariably driven ('biologically') to fertilise widely, and women to nurture solely. I think the influence of culture is often undervalued in such accounts.

I can't find specific descriptions of the material in the plethysmographic studies, but there's an implication that partial or total nudity was the standard, rather than specifically 'explicit' poses, etc. (The latter would've been difficult to get past an ethical committee, for one thing).

Sorry to sound critical again, Chrome, but I'm finding the phrase "physically meant to" rather difficult to establish to my own satisfaction. If we're talking in terms of what does and doesn't cause tissue damage then you're quite right - but this would also apply to oral or anal intercourse between adults, vaginal penetration between adults who are mismatched in terms of genital size, and fisting. When it comes to sex, humans (and other animals) appear to have evolved a range of uses for our orifices which, on the face of it, weren't 'meant to' be so.

I'm not saying that the tissue damage aspect is irrelevant, morally; on the contrary, I think it lends weight to the larger issue of consent (ie. is a prepubertal child able to give informed consent to sex), where penetrative intercourse is concerned.
 
 
000
17:04 / 25.01.03
Originally posted by Ganesh:
"Sorry to sound critical again, Chrome, but I'm finding the phrase "physically meant to" rather difficult to establish to my own satisfaction. If we're talking in terms of what does and doesn't cause tissue damage then you're quite right - but this would also apply to oral or anal intercourse between adults, vaginal penetration between adults who are mismatched in terms of genital size, and fisting. When it comes to sex, humans (and other animals) appear to have evolved a range of uses for our orifices which, on the face of it, weren't 'meant to' be so..."

I welcome any critical thinking and reasoning, Ganesh, no doubt about that. However, I would also expect a more thorough analysis. Or, failing that, paraphrasing contradictory studies, opinions and else.

Is it true that the bowels are more susceptible to damage during the growth from child to pubescent kid/teen?
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:09 / 25.01.03
I would hesitate to base too much on the concept that men are invariably driven ('biologically') to fertilise widely, and women to nurture solely. I think the influence of culture is often undervalued in such accounts. - Ganesh

Yes, but one shouldn't be too quick to dismiss it either. The pronouncements of evolutionary psychology aren't meant to be inescapable laws, but tendencies. Much like the rest of biology. So one can say that men tend to be taller than women without implying it is always so and yet still be left with something valid.

I'm reading Pinker's The Blank Slate at the moment and he argues, quite forcefully, that the influence of culture is overvalued in accounts of behaviour. Personally, I'm not sure, but his case is sometimes quite compelling, especially when he takes care to make cross cultural comparisons.
 
 
Ganesh
18:28 / 25.01.03
Chrome, what sort of "thorough analysis" could possibly prove, one way or another, the specific 'purpose' of particular body orifices? Either one of us can doubtless produce data on the incidence of oral or anal sex between adults, or possibly even the incidence of tissue damage to throat, anus, etc., etc. - but none of this would go any way in proving or disproving the existence of some sort of biological User's Guide for our bodies, from which we have somehow strayed. I doubt that you, I or anyone else could establish that X body part is or isn't "meant" for Y sexual practice. Ultimately, it's all gonna be speculation, isn't it?

Or is it? You tell me.
 
 
Ganesh
18:32 / 25.01.03
Regarding anus and rectum, I don't think the pubertal period represents any particular period of 'risk', damage-wise. In both child and adult, the mucosal surfaces are relatively thin compared with the vaginal lining - and therefore more susceptible to abrasive damage.
 
 
Ganesh
18:47 / 25.01.03
Lurid: I'm certainly in agreement that evolutionary theory is valuable in proposing tendencies toward particular behaviours; I guess I'm particularly wary of the way evolutionary arguments can be twisted to shade into moral/'natural' ones, particularly regarding the respective roles of men and women. I haven't read 'The Blank Slate' (is it any good?) thought, and my own experience of the subject may be similarly distorted by the fact that I've been drawn to evolutionary 'explanations' of homosexual or transgender people; these are particularly unconvincing.

One analogy that does spring to mind - if you don't mind my straying into the vexed area of animal comparisons - is that of certain mammals (big cats, hippopotami, etc.) which do follow the 'male impregnates widely, female nurtures young' model. Interestingly, the males in these situations also have a tendency to kill the young of the group, particularly if there's a change in male hierarchy and a newly-dominant male 'takes over' a vanquished male's female and her cubs.

Animal models, however, are even more treacherous than evolutionary theory when attempting to argue what is or isn't 'natural'...
 
 
000
18:52 / 25.01.03
Or is it? You tell me.

So, tissue damage by penetration is similar in effect and damage with children and adults? There are no discernible differences?

I'm really curious how wide your knowledge goes Ganesh, and what you base your assumptions on, in order to refine this debate.
 
 
Ganesh
19:00 / 25.01.03
I'm not claiming any knowledge I don't possess on this subject, Chrome, and I'm quite happy to be proven wrong. How about you start evidencing some of your propositions?
 
 
Ganesh
19:04 / 25.01.03
Oh, and you didn't ask whether there were specific differences in anal tissue damage between adults and children; you asked whether the transition period between the two reflected a particular period of vulnerability. I don't believe there's any fundamental (ho ho) change in the microscopic tissue structure between children and adults; obviously the macroscopic differences mean that, if you put something big in a small hole it'll damage it more. That applies whatever one's age.
 
 
000
19:08 / 25.01.03
How about you start evidencing some of your propositions?

In due time, my love, in due time...

in anal tissue damage

I, hereby, include not only anal tissue damage but vaginal tissue damage in my query also.
 
 
Ganesh
19:16 / 25.01.03
Well, I think I'm gonna wait until you actually evidence your line of reasoning before I attempt to critique or analyse it. I am more than happy to admit my relative ignorance of the 'fine print' microphysiological genital changes during puberty, and welcome whatever you'd like to reference on the subject. If we're debating specific pubertal changes to such a degree, my role here is a participative rather than an authoritative one. Research your subject, present your hypothesis, then I'll address it.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:23 / 27.01.03
...I'm particularly wary of the way evolutionary arguments can be twisted to shade into moral/'natural' ones, particularly regarding the respective roles of men and women. - Ganesh

Agreed, but I think that Pinker would contend that this wariness shifts the debate too far one way - it is akin to rejecting medical science as sexist on the grounds of the (historical) maltreatment of women.

Also, "natural" is a loaded term. Evolutionary arguments provide little moral imperative, but rather provide a realistic framework in which to make decisions. (At least, thats what its supporters believe.)

A foray into the animal kingdom is instructive here since if evolutionary arguments of this kind work at all, they should not make some artificial distinction between humans and animals. Pinker claims (and I've no reason to doubt him) that the argument for the male tendency to mate widely is followed in the animal kingdom as long as the investment for the male is small. If that investment is higher than that of the female, then the roles are reversed.

Pinker is smug and overly one-sided in his presentation, but he writes well and does a good job of making evolutionary psychology seem like real science sometimes. However, I'd probably recommending reading the Language Instinct and How the Mind Works first and in that order, if you have the time.

But to try and drag this back on topic, I think my point is that there might be a basis for saying certain acts are or aren't "natural". People surving on a diet of rocks isn't natural. Completely depriving people of sunlight isn't natural. In both cases you end up with serious problems, in a biological sense. There may similarly be psychological situations in which people will tend to experience problems. Actually, I think it is pretty clear that this is true if we think about basic needs.

Still, any case needs to be argued very carefully. I'd suggest that if you want to proceed, Bendt, that you outline the points you'd like to make.
 
 
000
17:14 / 27.01.03
Instead of outlining my points in a single setting, which, I think would anger Ganesh just a little in the way it is presented and which is not a viable solution, given that I had to promise him 2-3 times to not engage in a shitstorm about this issue (when in reality it has only been the Humouring THOHT thread where we had one in regards to paedophilia).

Also, this is the most inopportune moment in my life, a call has sounded and I, having made commitments years ago, have no other way but to answer it, so, in effect, Barbelith becomes largely a luxury of time I no longer can afford.

But the most irritating thing must be that my emails have been unanswered, because I needed a few specialists to help me finetune some things, and through chance, I called someone up that I had written to a few hours beforehand -- they had received no email.

So, sorry to throw in the towel when in fact I have so many things to add.
 
 
Ganesh
21:42 / 27.01.03
You need not worry; I'm certainly not angry. I'm simultaneously relieved and disappointed.
 
 
Ganesh
22:26 / 29.01.03
Lurid: I'm not sure that something can be labelled "unnatural" solely on the basis that it leads to serious problems, biological or otherwise; well, it can but the term then becomes somewhat meaningless within a modern-day cultural context because virtually anything can arguably be 'against nature', depending what one chooses to consider a "serious problem". It's certainly not especially useful as a "realistic framework in which to make decisions".

I'll definitely give Pinker a go, though.
 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
  
Add Your Reply