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Tumor linked to paedophile's behavior.

 
  

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Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:37 / 11.01.03
As a white European I say that man should not eat of his own kind. If I were part of some small tribe of people, who practice cannibalism, not because they're nasty but because that's a natural part of the way their society has developed, then I'd say that man should eat of his own kind, then I'd be going off to put a spike in my genitalia or something.

I can think of one good medical reason why eating human flesh is a bad idea Chromeo, I'm just asking for you to give me some more.
 
 
000
19:07 / 11.01.03
Since this is something that will take me a fair bit of time, perhaps you could tell us what is on your mind, TransFlower.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:57 / 12.01.03
Well, I was mainly thinking of when you said
Paedophilia abuse is widespread in the white countries, and these countries consume the most unnatural food sources. The reason why the Quran says why we should not eat pork, is that because - and here I am not implying that the Quran writers knew the exact reason - pork meat is the closest to the human meat. Pork meat is known as an aggressor, due to the arosen substances through preparation, and it is the most cancerous of all red meats.

Pork consumption in the white countries is - as an example - one of the highest in the world; a wholesome human being is not meant to, 1) Eat of his kind, 2) Eat food sources that pervert the physical balance (to my disgust, a recent article claimed that children in day care centres ate too little red meat) and 3) have an unnatural sexual preference (= a decadence which disrupts the unwritten mating rules).

In short, it is highly likely that exposure to factors which cause a perversion in the physical body, can cause a sexual perversion -- how widespread this might be, I have no guesses for, and I am not concluding that every Paedophile has a tumour to blame for his preferences.


and hoping that i could get you to justify that, by giving a biological justification (NOT a moral based one on your dislike of paedophiles) for those three things you list as being things a 'wholesome' (whatever they are) human doesn't do. I'm only trying to engage with you as you asked further up in the thread.
 
 
000
20:24 / 12.01.03
TransFlower: "I can think of one good medical reason why eating human flesh is a bad idea"

And I would like to hear that. As for the rest, I have contacted an outside biochemist, and am just waiting for a reply.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:22 / 13.01.03
This is an extraordinary conversation.

First things first, I read an article recently which I think was by Marina Warner about cannibalism, and how there is no evidence of cannibalism for food anywhere in the world - although there is evidence for ritual cannibalism and the eating of parts of ones enemies.

Secondly, conversations in which the words 'human beings are meant to' always worry me. Like most other organisms, human beings have evolved in ways that allow them to survive and breed most effectively. We're not 'meant to' or 'meant not to' do anything. Nonetheless, as social animals we have chosen limits which we aim not to cross and we punish those who do. I'm unconvinced by any food correlation which is presented without information, I remind everyone to keep their minds open to the difference between cause and correlation (and coincidence for that matter) and that the categories by which we understand the world need not necessarily be any core attribute of the world in and of itself...
 
 
000
17:15 / 13.01.03
Tom,

1) In the interest of clarifying some matters, I have chosen to broaden up a little bit, however, I do not think I have strayed too far from some basic concepts. Although you might have moral objections to terms as "we must" and "we must not," evidence suggests that information is passed on through generations, in a complex interplay of natural substances (the womb/breastfeeding) and outside influences. A program is encoded in animals, which to a large extent determines their behaviour in life.

2) It is possible to disturb these naturally occurring information transfers, or - to use your word - evolve into something that goes against these basic concepts of life; an aberration. Paedophilia is cruel, disgusting, inhumane behaviour and totally unnatural to every mammal species (but I could stand corrected if you were able to show me otherwise). The fact that it is so totally out of line to me indicates a great deal, that something unnatural and corrupted is the cause. What sickens these minds? What do they have in common? Living conditions? No way. Experiences during childhood? Maybe. Intake of mind altering substances? Most likely. Were there not cases where molested children later took over behaviour they learned from their abusers? Yes, indeed. Is it not thinkable, that paedophilia is both, a vicious circleof behaviour passed on between generations accompanied with the intake of mind altering substances? And is it not unlikely that these (mind altering) substances occur in man's diet since paedophilia is so destructive? And is it too bold to imagine that paedophilia began with the corruption of man's diet, with the intake of alien substances?

[There are millions of discovered and undiscovered chemical compounds created daily in the chemical experiment, called cooking]

3) Cannibalism, as brought up by me, has nothing to do with "savage" tribes periodically devouring other human beings; and actually, refers to the 90-something% likeness between human meat and pork meat.

4) I have convinced myself today, that I should not bring in outside biochemists (biochemists with whom I have no prior history) and reinforced my decision not to clutter up this debate with "broken" links (as Bio K9 might say). I leave it all up to you and your reasoning minds, to either a) pick holes, b) find evidence that corroborates or c) bring in outside players that are specialists in paedophilia, biochemistry or anthropology.

5) Extraordinary conversation in what sense? That I am not willfully confrontational and unbending in my views? If so, then it is my attempt to heal a cycle that needen't go on.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:27 / 13.01.03
Bendt Chromeo TransFlower: "I can think of one good medical reason why eating human flesh is a bad idea"

And I would like to hear that.


Kiru (Or Kuru or however it's spelt) and, depending on whether our cannibal likes hir food fresh or cooked, diseases like HIV are transmissable as well too, I believe.

And technically paedophilia is unique to the human species because no other species has evolved sufficiently to create a newspaper naming and shaming the members of that species that indulge in it. Do adult gorillas mate with their children, or does their hierarchy prevent that?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:39 / 13.01.03
And Chromeo, I'm not asking for or wanting exhaustive medical data to back up your beliefs, I probably wouldn't be able to understand it anyway, but surely you know enough to be able to provide some examples to back up your point of view?
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:06 / 13.01.03
Especially considering that, prepared pork meat is one of the most addictive things ever, mutates the body in an unhealthy manner (cancer and a long list of others), including the brain. - Bendt Chromeo

I'm really intrigued by the idea that pork meat is so addictive. Somehow this fact has completely passed me by.

I would also suggest that most of your arguments beg the question. You seem to have arbitrarily decided on a collection of "abhorrent" behaviour and ask us to believe that the causes are "most likely" to be found in the process of ingesting unnatural substances. You essentially assume your conclusions and use your confidence in them as an argument.
 
 
000
20:35 / 13.01.03
I haven't assumed the position of being right all the time, or phrasing everything correctly, rather,

"I leave it all up to you and your reasoning minds, to either a) pick holes, b) find evidence that corroborates or c) bring in outside players that are specialists in paedophilia, biochemistry or anthropology."
 
 
The Monkey
22:35 / 13.01.03
Chromeo, having grown up in Muslim regions of the world, your interpretation of the Quranic edict against pork is a bit a stretch. The very explicit statement of the ban on pork is not consuming "creatures that crawl in the mud and soil," and is often applied to shellfish, most crusteaceans, and various bottom-dwelling flatfish.

I'm a little non-plussed by the rest of your assertion, too, but I figure you'll explain or not in your own time.

To the topic of the abstract, I'd say that the idea of paedophilia-causing tumor even in a single case is interesting, but likely as much a rara avis as other brain-damage-induced behavior problems. If you really dig through the individual cases, you can find cases of traumas, lesions, and tumors striking some region and generating changes that sound like something from a bad SNL-skit. Many of my neurology texts mention the apocryphal case of a subject with debilitating OCD attempting suicide, and the bullet's passage through his brain was not merely nonfatal, but had no effect except to expunge his OCD tendencies by winging a certain ganglial node.

There's a lot of work to be done from a pretty slim basis...one case does not a pathology make. When a neurologist finds a case where trauma or tumor have created a natural (non-surgical) lesion of the brain that *seems* to be tied to a specific change in the subject's behavior, it suggests that a ganglion pathway through the damaged region relays information regulating the affected behavior, when things seem to have gone majorly awry, that the damaged region is a node for many ganglia-pathways all dealing with aspects of a behavior, with in/out regions spreading to many other parts of the brain.

The first thing sought is a case-study match: a description of another patient - actually, as many as can be located - with similar damage experiencing similar side-effects. However, a tumor (or trauma) generally does not do so neat a job as to damage only one clear pathway, so pathology work is need to look at the pathways going through a region...tracing both the intiation and termination points of the ganglia, and thus getting some sense of what line conveys what...and there's a lots of ganglia routes that aren't mapped.

After round after round of clarification of the path work...and possibly animal model studies where applicable, one might get permission to do work selectively stimulating and inhibiting specific regional pathways in volunteer subjects, to perceive the results. But most neuropathological study and discovery is done in the area of motor and sensory damage/change because there's typically a pretty clear correlation between cause (brain damage) and effect (a very noticeable change in sensory perception or motor control capacity). With this case, a very complex and fuzzy set of behaviors by comparison to a reflex or perceptual range it would be a lot harder to say that there is a simple, one-to-one impact going on. A very simple difficulty would be demonstrating whether the lesion *produced* the behavior or if it *disinhibited* cognitive restraints. In the case of something as involved as a set of behaviors that comprise paedophilia, things get even ickier. That involves associative learning processes - basically the way your brain learns is to bud new synapses, etc., etc., neuro-cakes - and thus where the bits of the brain go to and from and at what rate is really hard to track.
 
 
Ganesh
12:42 / 14.01.03
I think we're in danger of conflating subjective and objective 'truths' here: because I (as a product, yes, of my genetics but also my time, place and culture) find something disgusting does not mean it is objectively so, or has always been seen as such. The objection to terms like "meant to" is not merely a moral but also a logical one, as one cannot authoritatively infer meaning and purpose from what we perceive to be "encoded programs".

(Much of the following is paraphrased from the 'Archives of Sexual Behavior'; I'll provide more detailed references to anyone who's interested.)

Regarding paedophilic attraction:

In the DSM-IV, the boundary for paedophilia is puberty; the younger person is to be prepubertal. Quite apart from the fact that puberty varies between individuals (and may be changing over generations), it is not a marker that's particularly grounded historically or cross-culturally.

The diversity of sexual behaviour in a cross-cultural perspective is amazing to those who assume that their own (or their own society's) moral standards are somehow laws of nature. Although child-adult relationships are currently condemned in Western society as being inherently abusive and exploitative, there have been (and still are) many societies that don't share this viewpoint.

A handful of examples: Ford & Beach (1951) described child-adult sex among the Siwa Valley North Africans - "All men and boys engage in anal intercourse. Males are singled out as peculiar if they do not do so. Prominent Siwan men lend their sons to each other for this purpose"; among the Aranda aborigines of Central Australia, "a man, who is fully initiated but not yet married, takes a boy ten or twelve years old, who lives with him as his wife for several years, until the older man marries"; Diamond (1990) reviewed child-adult sex throughout Hawaiian history and Polynesia, including public sex between an adult male and an 11-year-old girl "without the least sense of it being indecent or improper". Sexual relations between adult and child were seen as benefitting the child rather than gratifying the adult.

Bauserman (1997) reports that among the Etoro of New Guinea, from about age 10, boys would have regular oral sex with older men, swallowing their semen "to facilitate growth". Among the neighbouring Kaluli, when a boy reached age 10 or 11, his father would select a man to inseminate him for a period of months to years.

Finally, for three centuries the age of consent in England was 10 - up until within 39 years of World War I. The impetus to raise the age of sexual consent was fuelled not by outrage over paedophilia per se but concerns over child prostitution...

I'm giving these examples not to argue that child-adult sex is a really great idea but to point out that, as with ritual cannibalism, the practice is not inherently wrong or 'unnatural' but contingent upon cultural context.

Oh, and arguments that paedophilia is unknown among animals are flawed. The obligatory example is that of the bonobo: not only are 'non-fertile' (same-sex or juvenile-adult) sexual pairings as frequent as 'potentially-fertile' (adult male-female) combinations, but a third of sexual contacts by an adult with an infant were initiated by the infant (De Waal, 1990).

My previous assertion that around one fifth of adult males experience sexual arousal toward children may have been a conservative recollection. In Briere & Runtz's 1989 study of around 200 university males, 21% reported some sexual attraction to small children, 9% described sexual fantasies involving children, 5% admitted to having masturbated to sexual fantasies of children, and 7% indicated they might have sex with a child if not caught (the researchers concluded that "given the probable social undesirability of such admissions, we may hypothesise that the actual rates were even higher"). In a later sample of 100 male and 180 female undergraduate students, 22% of males and 3% of females reported sexual attraction to a child (Smiljanich & Briere, 1996).

In plethysmographic studies (those measuring penile responsivity), the rate of penile arousal to pictures of prepubescent girls "equalling or exceeding arousal to an adult" averages between 17-50%. The subjects of these studies vary from being 'normal' undergraduates and hospital workers to Czech soldiers.

The fact that sexual arousal patterns to children are subjectively reported and physiologically demonstrable in a substantial minority of 'normal' people - and historically common and accepted in varying cultures at varying times - would seem to make the term "perversion" rather questionable. Our current Western culture views paedophilic attraction as abhorrent, certainly, but claiming that this contemporary abhorrence is somehow translatable into 'hardwired' genetic or biological 'truth' is, at best, speculative.
 
 
Ganesh
21:58 / 17.01.03
For Chrome and other interested parties:

Green, R (2002) 'Is Pedophilia a Mental Disorder?' Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol.31, No.6, December 2002, pp467-471

American Psychiatric Association (2000) Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (4th ed., Text Rev) Washington DC

Ford, C S £ Beach, F A (1951) 'Patterns of sexual behavior' New York: Harper & Row

Diamond, M (1990) 'Selected cross-generational sexual behavior in traditional Hawaii' i. A sexological ethnography. In J Feierman (Ed.) 'Pedophilia: Biological dimensions' (pp379-393). New York: Springer

Bauermann, R (1997) 'Man-boy sexual relationships in a cross-cultural perspective' In J. Geraci (Ed.) 'Dares to speak: Historical and contemporary perspectives on boy-love' (pp120-137) Norfolk, England: Gay Men's Press

De Waal, F (1990) 'Sociosexual behavior used for tension regulation in all age and sex combinations among Bonobos' In J Feierman (Ed.) 'Pedophilia: Biological dimensions' (pp379-393). New York: Springer

Briere J & Runtz M (1989) 'University males' sexual interest in children: Predicting potential indices of "pedophilia" in a non-forensic sample' Child abuse and Neglect, 13, 65-75

Smiljanich K & Briere J (1996) 'Self-reported sexual interest in children: Sex differences and psychosocial correlates in a university sample' Violence and Victims, 11, 39-50

Hall G C N, Hirschmann R & Oliver L L (1995) 'Sexual arousal and arousability to pedophilic stimuli in a community sample of normal men' Behavior Therapy, 26, 681-694

Quinsey V L, Steinman C M, Bergersen S G & Holmes T F (1975) 'Penile circumference, skin conductance, and ranking responses of child molesters and "normals" to sexual and nonsexual visual stimuli' Behavior Therapy, 6, 213-219

Fedora et al (1992) 'Sadism and other paraphilias in normal controls and aggressive and nonaggressive sex offenders' Archives of Sexual Behavior, 21, 1-15

Freund K & Watson R J (1991) 'Assessment of the sensitivity and specificity of a phallometric test: An update of phallometric diagnosis of pedophilia' Psychological Assessment, 3, 254-260

Freund K & Costell R (1970) 'The structure of erotic preference in the nondeviant male' Behavior Research and Therapy, 8, 15-20

Phew!
 
 
000
14:08 / 21.01.03
Ganesh,

Sorry for taking so long to reply. But before I can continue, I need you to provide a clarifying post how your previous posts fit in to the discussion and topic at hand.
 
 
Ganesh
14:16 / 21.01.03
Sure - when I get around to it.
 
 
000
14:18 / 21.01.03
Goody.
 
 
Ganesh
20:05 / 21.01.03
It's a slightly unusual request, Chrome, but I'll do my best to accede.

My first post in this thread points out that "physical abnormalities causing mental and emotional ones" is a commonplace phenomenon - and, to some extent, the terms 'physical' and 'mental' represent an artificial dichotomy. This relates to the central concept of the thread - as does my second, more specific, point, the likelihood (IMHO) that, given the high estimated prevalence of paedophilic attraction within the population at large, the unfortunate individual's tumour merely served to disinhibit an existing prediliction.

My second post responds to the side-point you initiated regarding the neuroanatomy/neurophysiology of serial killers, and notes the difficulty of deducing causation from association. I also address, more explicitly, Banshee's original suggestion of a "physical reference point for paedophilia", pointing out that mooted 20-odd % might suggest a less straightforward cause than specific brain lesion.

My third post queries your proposal of a specific ethnic/geographical distribution for paedophilic attraction, observing that, while cultural attitudes vary, there's no good evidence for such a distribution. I also express apprehension - hopefully unfounded - that this thread will degenerate into a "shitstorm"...

My fourth post addresses Substatique's point about neuroplasticity (the concept of behaviour changing neuroanatomy), pointing out that the high estimated prevalence of paedophilic attraction would suggest a corresponding prevalence of brain tumours - which isn't the case. I also make reference to the practice of sleeping with underage children in order to avoid certain STDs - again, relating to your preceding post. Also, since you asked me to cite information relating to the geographical distribution of paedophilic attraction, I mention that I intend to do so.

My fifth post challenges your use of "meant", which seems a rather subjective assumption to use within a predominantly evidence-based forum.

My sixth post makes further reference to the dangers of conflating subjective (assumption-based) and objective (evidence-based) observations, and illustrates this point by citing examples of societies which have framed child-adult sex in a different way from our own. This also expands upon some of my earlier arguments regarding possible 'causes' of paedophilic attraction (for example, while I'm not equipped to comment on the specific diets of the cultures concerned, it seems unlikely, statistically speaking, that every individual was possessed of a specific brain tumour or other lesion) and geographical spread. The studies of the prevalence of paedophilic attraction within the general population elaborate upon my original "20%" comment which, in turn, relates to observations within my first post regarding likelihood of the phenomenon arising 'afresh'. Finally, I challenge the assumption that paedophilic attraction is inherently abhorrent or 'unnatural' (a supporting strand of your 'perversion of the mind corresponds with perversion of the body' argument), suggesting that what is and isn't 'natural' is, in part, a modern societal construction.

My seventh post contains my references, as requested (via PM) by yourself.

I hope this is what you meant.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:52 / 21.01.03
I assumed that Chrome wanted a summary of the results contained in the references you posted as well as an explanation of their relevance - something that would be of general interest. Perhaps Chrome made a typo and meant to say

But before I can continue, I need you to provide a clarifying post how your previous post fit in to the discussion and topic at hand.

"Post" rather than "posts"? Asking you to expound on the medical literature you provided?
 
 
Ganesh
21:41 / 21.01.03
Ahhh, I see. Well, I think I've referenced the articles by author name within my sixth post; the subsequent list is an addendum at Chrome's request. If any one of them in particular isn't clear, let me know and I'll attempt to expand on it.
 
 
000
21:52 / 21.01.03
Lurid Archive, you were right on the dot.
 
 
Ganesh
22:13 / 21.01.03
Like I say, they fit into the discussion where I've quoted them by author name in the body of my larger text. They're a mixture of specifically medical/psychiatric research studies and general science/anthropology texts. Some are single studies, some are reviews, editorials or collections of articles. To attempt to summarise even one would take me hours and would likely wander some considerable distance from the topic at hand - hence my merely referencing those parts with special relevance. The purpose in providing complete references is to allow those who wish to know more to look up the pieces themselves: the abstracts, at least, should be available from any good science database.
 
 
000
22:14 / 21.01.03
Ganesh: "I think we're in danger of conflating subjective and objective 'truths' here: because I (as a product, yes, of my genetics but also my time, place and culture) find something disgusting does not mean it is objectively so, or has always been seen as such. The objection to terms like "meant to" is not merely a moral but also a logical one, as one cannot authoritatively infer meaning and purpose from what we perceive to be "encoded programs"."

This in turn creates a question, which is simple and simplestic: When did Paedophilia start? Has it always been around, is it a natural deviation?

Is it a healthy sign of the society which 'spawns' paedophiles?

Should we have a more inclusive attitude towards paedophiles? Should we openly discuss their 'problems,' and just because we find known paedophile perpetrators disgusting, should we always pause to think and say to ourselves that it is not objectively so? You know, some paedophiles swear by that the children love/like being sexually penetrated, who are we to argue against that?

"Quite apart from the fact that puberty varies between individuals (and may be changing over generations), it is not a marker that's particularly grounded historically or cross-culturally."

Yes, puberty has been shown to occur earlier than before. Is it normal? Evolution? Mutation?

(Actually, although I can't offer the same satisfying explanation as a biochemist, it is scientifically possible to demonstrate that the unnatural, physically altering substances that are in our everyday foods can mess up and 'mutate' the normal development of children -- I have seen reports where children as young as 5 and 6 have begun to menstruate, grow pubic hair, etc.)

And Ganesh, I need you to explain "it is not a marker that's particularly grounded historically or cross-culturally" a bit further. Which sources and evidence is this statement based on?
 
 
000
22:17 / 21.01.03
Darling:

Like I say, they fit into the discussion where I've quoted them by author name in the body of my larger text.

You completely misunderstood me. I just needed you to show how the post in question, with all the reference points, fit into the discussion that happened before you brought them in, or to rephrase it: What is your point for including them on the ongoing discussion?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:42 / 21.01.03
Foucault, of course, in the History of Sexuality, points out that, although men were having sex with men since whenever, the idea of the "Homosexual" is a fairly recent one. By continuing to argue as if the concepts "paedophile" and "paedophilia" are precisely congruient with the state of sexual attraction towards children, or the act of sexual congress with children, Bendt is missing this concept rather, which I think is a theory-flavoured version of what Ganesh was saying. You are the structure of a society and culture with a lot invested in certain conceptions of sexuality functioning in a certain way. Doesn't mean that the ethical component of a response to paedophilia is irrelevant, but does mean that the terms do not exist in perfect congruity with the world and the history of the world in the way they are often imagined to.

Of coruse, all of this *is* irrelevant to a discussion of "physical abnormalities causing mental and emotional ones", itself a rather tasty phrase. The moderators will have to work out whether this is threadrot or acceptable thread reorienting.
 
 
000
22:42 / 21.01.03
"The diversity of sexual behaviour in a cross-cultural perspective is amazing to those who assume that their own (or their own society's) moral standards are somehow laws of nature. Although child-adult relationships are currently condemned in Western society as being inherently abusive and exploitative, there have been (and still are) many societies that don't share this viewpoint."

Well, simple question time again.

How long have the Siwa Valley North Africans engaged in child-adult sex? How far back does it go? Does it still continue this day and age? What is the statistical figure of children who engage in adult sex? Does it remain a constant? Has it remained a constant? How far back in time, if any, does the statistical analysis' go? Any other sources that verifies these facts? Why only boys, and not girls? What is the inherent tradition behind this?

(Substitute Siwa Valley North Africans with a) Aranda aborigines of Central Australia b)Hawaiian and Polynesian people and c) Etoro of New Guinea (and ignore the irrelevant questions))

Sexual relations between adult and child were seen as benefitting the child rather than gratifying the adult. (-- Hawaii and Polynesia)

How? What particular reason is given?

Does child prostitution exist in the cited cultures above? Or is it mainly a western 'problem' or 'occupation'?

Finally, you cite these 4 examples about child-adult sex, is there any more? I mean, this figure pales a little bit when compared to the number of societies that exist/existed.
 
 
000
22:47 / 21.01.03
Haus:

"By continuing to argue as if the concepts "paedophile" and "paedophilia" are precisely congruient with the state of sexual attraction towards children, or the act of sexual congress with children, Bendt is missing this concept rather"

Or it could be that he is saving this particular aspect for a rainy day. I will eventually dive into this aspect.

The moderators will have to work out whether this is threadrot or acceptable thread reorienting

Which is exactly why I have asked Ganesh to clarify why he included the post that he did, instead of starting up a thread that is inclusive to what he wanted to convey.
 
 
Ganesh
23:13 / 21.01.03
A host of questions! I'm not at all sure that they can all be addressed within a single thread (or even a single forum) without going off at numerous tangents and straying way off the topic at hand - but, bearing in mind that we're in the Laboratory, I'll give it my best shot. This may take some time...

Firstly, my objective in including the references I included was to 'show the working' behind the discussion points I've developed in the course of this thread (eg. the varying cultural contexts of paedophilic attraction, its estimated prevalence within the general population) and provide my sources, so that interested parties can check out my evidence-base for themselves. I've already explained at some length how my discussion points evolved from the topic itself.

How did paedophilia start?

I haven't the foggiest. The concept - like 'homosexuality' - is a relatively modern one, but I'd make an educated guess that child-adult sex has been around as long as mankind. Obviously, this is largely speculation on my part.

Has it always been around, is it a natural deviation?

The Bible certainly includes several examples of relatively old men married to very young girls, and other cultures (eg. China) provide historical examples of child-brides. I'd guess again that some sort of child-adult sex has existed in most societies, but I can't know for sure. It's certainly a "natural deviation" in terms of being a statistical deviation from the sexual norm. If you're using 'natural' to mean something like 'in harmony with nature', I'd have to say I find that rather a meaningless definition.

Is it a healthy sign of the society which 'spawns' paedophiles?

Who or what defines 'healthy' and 'unhealthy'? Historically, humanity has dealt with child-adult sex in a variety of ways. In some cultures (including the various examples I've provided thus far) it's been considered 'healthy'; in some - obviously including modern Western society - it hasn't.

Should we have a more inclusive attitude towards paedophiles?

Now we're straying outwith the bounds of science-based discussion and into what I do or don't think - my personal opinion. This, and your subsequent questions tend more toward cultural discussion, law & order and medical ethics than science. I'll be quite happy to answer them if you're really interested in my personal opinion, but I'm not sure the Laboratory's the right forum. If we're talking about how society should address the question of paedophilia, perhaps we can have another crack at this one in the Head Shop?

Regarding puberty itself:

Yes, puberty has been shown to occur earlier than before. Is it normal? Evolution? Mutation?

I don't know. I alluded to this (rather clumsily) with my "not particularly grounded historically or cross-culturally" comment (meaning societal 'coming of age' in other time-periods and cultures has differed from the strictly 'physical' definition of puberty - and even that has shifted over the centuries) but I don't know enough about the subject to speculate confidently as to what's causing it. If the majority of children are reaching puberty earlier, then statistically yes, it is "normal". It may be an example of micro-evolution at work; I'm not sure.
 
 
000
23:24 / 21.01.03
Unless we are kicked off this thread, I say let's keep it here, whut?

I am going to weawe in many tangent notions, but it shouldn't be a huge problem because they fit into the larger picture.
 
 
Ganesh
23:48 / 21.01.03
Chrome, you have asked me approximately forty questions requiring moderately detailed, specific answers. Assuming you're not about to go and search for Ford & Beach, Diamond and Bauermann's publications yourself (which was, after all, the point of my providing references), you'll appreciate that it'd take me a considerable amount of time and effort to track down that information. I'm naturally reluctant to do so without some assurance that is isn't merely another 'you & me' shitstorm waiting to happen. I'd also suggest that we:

a) decide exactly which discussion(s) we're going to have,

b) decide which forum(s) it's gonna go in,

and

c) decide what's a reasonable amount of research/summarising to expect from one another. If I'm expected to evidence my arguments to the nth degree, I expect you to do so also.

Like yourself, I have 'broadened up' this particular discussion with the inclusion of information which I feel is relevant to the points I wish to make: as a result, we've strayed somewhat from the original premise. So far, within this thread, we seem to have touched on the historical and geographical basis of child-adult sex, its cultural context, possible links to nutrition, the specific etymology of the term 'paedophilia' and how one would like to see it managed within society in general. Any and all of these would make a fulsome discussion in its own right.

This is a loaded series of topics but I can play nicely if you can...
 
 
Ganesh
23:52 / 21.01.03
I am going to weave in many tangent notions, but it shouldn't be a huge problem because they fit into the larger picture

Well... I think one of the problems we've experienced in debating this in the past is that we don't all share the same "larger picture" or views regarding what is and isn't relevant. If we're going to expand the discussion to encompass the strands I've mentioned so far, I'm not sure it should stay here. I've a feeling we're both gonna go beyond science...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:00 / 22.01.03
On the positioning of this discussion:

First, I think that the Lab should have the scope to discuss moral questions from a scientific perspective rather than the Headshop style theory perspective. The potential overlap need not be a problem. So I tend to disagree with the following,

If we're talking about how society should address the question of paedophilia, perhaps we can have another crack at this one in the Head Shop? - Ganesh

But it comes down to what people want of the Lab. As to where the discussion should go, I'd say that I'm finding it pretty interesting and so am happy for it to broaden out to include a discussion of the prevalence, causes and history of paedophilia.

As to the discussion itself, I do remember reading Pinker giving an evolutionary psychology explanation of paedophila and incest. The idea is that men "want" (in an evolutionary fitness sense) to spread genetic material as far as possible. I suppose this explanation only really works for females able to bear children, but there may be an advantage for a male to get a girl to "commit" to sex with him shortly before puberty.

This explanation goes hand in hand with the ev. psychology explanation of the differences in male and female sexuality being, in part, products of biology. (Women are fussier becuase they need to invest more in childrearing.) That seems to tally with some of Ganesh statistics - in that women have little interest in the underaged.

I'm never sure I believe, ev. psch. but it produces some interesting stories.
 
 
000
18:44 / 23.01.03
Lurid Archive: "The idea is that men "want" (in an evolutionary fitness sense) to spread genetic material as far as possible. I suppose this explanation only really works for females able to bear children, but there may be an advantage for a male to get a girl to "commit" to sex with him shortly before puberty."

This is an important point that left me to wonder how long it would take another poster to include it.

Because there are distinctions to be made with (mostly) men and their sexual preferences. You're right, this evolutionary notion that men have a higher sex drive (I'm sure this can be explained hormonally) in order to plant their seeds is an important factor -- but to which degree? Could this help explain, in part, why "In plethysmographic studies (those measuring penile responsivity), the rate of penile arousal to pictures of prepubescent girls "equalling or exceeding arousal to an adult" averages between 17-50%."? In that, sexually charged pictures (I figure they must have been, although there is no direct mention of it) can awaken the sexual lust in men, but you have to factor in:

-- Prepubertal children have a different hormonal smell than kids who are going through puberty, and adults.

-- Prepubertal children aren't physically meant to handle an erect penis in their lower orifices (I will have to check the actual, general age). Mentally, is it an open debate?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:41 / 24.01.03
Is there any proof that humans consciously react to the 'hormonal smell' of others, adult or not? I must admit I'm not entirely sure what Chrome means by this phrase. Do you mean the same thing which is thought to be a factor in women's menstrual cycles synchronising when they live/work together.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:09 / 24.01.03
I vaguely remember reading about some pheromonal effect within families that made siblings sexually unattractive to eachother. But I don't recall that particular source suggesting a distinction between before and after puberty.

However, isn't it pretty uncontroversial to suggest that people smell a bit different after puberty? Which is why you get lots more deodorant use after a certain age. And it isn't that much of a stretch to suppose that this might signal the onset of sexual maturity to others - as acne apparently does. But I'm not confident about any of this, so please feel free to correct me.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:49 / 25.01.03
Oh, I know people have an odour, but is this the 'hormonal smell' that Chromeo is talking about?
 
  

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