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Underground > Laboratory >

Tumor linked to paedophile's behavior.

  
  

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netbanshee
17:30 / 21.10.02
In New Scientist:

The sudden and uncontrollable paedophilia exhibited by a 40-year-old man was caused by an egg-sized brain tumour, his doctors have told a scientific conference. And once the tumour had been removed, his sex-obsession disappeared.

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This seems to be fairly interesting...since it's a direct link to a physical abnormality that's creating a mental and emotional one, especially to a touchy and loaded topic like this. Anyone?
 
 
gridley
19:32 / 21.10.02
but I would suspect people who have brain tumors removed (or any kind of brain surgery) experience all kinds of personality changes, don't they? I guess what I'm asking is, how significant can this be? I mean, it's not as though all pedophile have the same tumor, eh?

I suppose it could be argued that they've tracked down the general area that predeliction is located in the brain...
 
 
Kase Taishuu
19:52 / 21.10.02
Oh, look! Another scientist trying to support an unlikely theory with one single case! >)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:42 / 21.10.02
Scientists, eh? The Devils' own henchmen. Modern-day Frankensteins. I hear they've created mutant mice with human scrota growing on their backs. Evil, I tell ya, evil.

Alternatively, if we actually read the link we find that the neurologists involved aren't trying to support any unlikely theory (the Earth orbits the Sun, you say?), but are bringing a one-off possibility to wider attention.

Evil.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:49 / 21.10.02
Then I suddenly realise that your post may have been sarcastic and that you stuffed a winking smiley with a typo. Bah.
 
 
Kase Taishuu
14:04 / 22.10.02
oh boy.

Ok, think of that italics on scientist as a less obvious alternative to writing it with quotation marks, and everything will be clear. You are right about one thing, though, there were in fact more than one of them involved.

anyway, can we get back to brain tumors making you fond of little boys, please?
 
 
grant
14:12 / 22.10.02
Hmm. Is there a physical/neurological phenomenon associated with Tourette's?

If so, I could see this being similar enough to make it worth investigating.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:29 / 22.10.02
Not sure what the point of this thread is. Brain tumours can cause strange changes in behaviour, up to and including paedophilia. If true, this is moderately interesting. But it probably says very little about paedophiles in general.
 
 
netbanshee
17:16 / 22.10.02
well...when I saw this, it came across as a possible connection between the physical condition of a brain and a psyche linked result. And since the connection is to paedophilia, it makes the prospect all the more interesting. As we've seen at Barbelith before, there's a great deal to be said about sexually fancying the young.

It struck me as..."Isn't it obvious that behavior is linked to the physical?" It's not like one can behave more than a vegetable without a primitive brain. But a tumor possibly effecting sexual interest and in a specific way sounds a bit new. So much of the psychoanalytical process seems to focus on behavior and give general treatment or observation to the physical condition of the patient. But are there very small physical abberations that cause things like touretts, autism, etc.?

I'm just curious if the approach is a fresher way to look at things like this. It might give scientists more to look for...
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:33 / 23.10.02
I should probably let someone who knows about biology and psychology comment. However, I don't think it is a particularly new idea that physical affects the mental and that the mental can be seen in the physical. But this does not open up the possibility of tackling most psychological problems via physical methods. This may be because understanding of brain function, as far as I can tell, is rather crude. More importantly, it is unclear that of the many "mental" problems which develop there might be "physical" treatments for very many of them.

By way of analogy, my computer develops many faults in its operation. Some of them are to do with hardware and hardware can certainly make pretty much anything function badly. But there are lots and lots of problems that I wouldn't dream of tackling at the level of physical circuitry.
 
 
grant
15:41 / 23.10.02
Even if a technician fixed a similar problem by resoldering a single connection?
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:47 / 23.10.02
Yep. A mate of mine had a broken fan/dodgy connections that caused lots of data to corrupt. Another mate had a virus that did a similar thing.

That doesn't mean that you can "cure" computer viruses by replacing the fan.
 
 
netbanshee
20:18 / 23.10.02
True...there is a dividing line somewhere in there. But in this particular instance, it seems interesting that a "hardware" defect caused a problem usually associated with the "software". It seemed to me that paedophiles probably become the way they are due to internal and external conditions imposed on them (abuse, etc.) or a gravitation to unhealthy and abnormal behavior that's been reinforced over a period of time.
 
 
Fist of Fun
06:50 / 30.10.02
I think this tumour thing is just one of many examples of brain abnormalities / damage giving rise to unusual / aberant mental behaviour.

When I was studying the philosophy of mind I read a couple of psychology books which had a number of great examples of brain damage resulting in peculiar behaviour. A large number came up in the war from shell fragments that didn't kill but couldn't be removed, resulting in (from memory, so could be inaccurate):
(i) a man who went from being a wizzard at billiards, to unable to figure out the angles and could hardly play at all;
(ii) a number of people who could no longer remember certain things / words / events, or recognise certain objects (see, also, "The Man who Mistook His Wife for a Hat" by Oliver Sacks - not actually on brain damage, but related points).

My favourite was an example given in a Daniel Dennet essay "Brain bisection and the duality of mind". The brain is in two hemispheres, left and right, and the connective tissue between them (the corpus calloseum, if I remember the term correctly) used to be removed sometimes in an attempt to cure epilepsy. No help with epilepsy but produced some bizarre results. Everyone knows the left side of the body generally connects to the right side of the brain, but did you know the speech centre is generally in the right side of the brain? When these people had their left eyes covered up and were shown something they could not say what it was, because the message was not getting to the speech centre. Women were less affected (more generalised brain functions I believe) and over time the effect wore off - presumably as the brain developed alternative connections to compensate. Probably off topic, but pretty cool anyway.

Back to paedophilia and tumors: -
As a lawyer I have regularly seen massive evidence of personality change from brain damage. In my experience it usually results in loss of impulse control / increased agression / sudden changes in tastes (alcoholism often comes up too) / changes in libido (both up and down). I suspect I only see the bad sorts of personality change - people don't tend to sue if they change for the better. However, I have no doubt that this tumour is simply one example of many cases of sexual urges changing as a result of changes to the brain, although I must admit I have never come across a shift to paedophilia.
 
 
grant
20:05 / 06.01.03
Here's an update on the sorry fellow's life.

Dr Swerdlow said: "We're dealing with the neurology of morality here. It's one of those areas where you could have a lot of damage and a doctor would never suspect something's wrong."

The teacher had secretly started visiting child pornography websites and soliciting prostitutes, activities he had never engaged in before.

Dr Swerdlow said that while the man felt his new behaviour was unacceptable, in his words, the "pleasure principle overrode his restraint".
 
 
Ganesh
18:29 / 07.01.03
Erm, "physical" causes for mental or behavioural disorders are common, and are the basis for pretty much all pharmacological treatments for schizophrenia, depression, OCD, ADHD, etc., etc. To some extent the splitting off of a certain group of disorders as 'psychiatric' is an arbitrary one based more on historical tradition than aetiology.

Frontal lobe tumours nearly always cause some degree of sexual or behavioural disinhibition. It's rare to hear of a paedophilic attraction arising spontaneously where there was none before, though, and I have my doubts. Given that around a fifth of men (when tested with the doughnut thingie that measures penile response) registered at least some degree of arousal when shown pictures of children, I think it's more likely that the tumour's presence sharpened and exaggerated an attraction that was already there...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:52 / 07.01.03
Doubts over here, too. Just because someone hasn't been caught molesting children before doesn't mean they haven't done so, or considered doing so. It's just possible that the loss of inhibitions due to the brain tumour didn't create this man's abusive behaviour out of whole cloth, but instead pushed a fantasy into actuality.
 
 
000
22:25 / 07.01.03
Frontal lobe tumours nearly always cause some degree of sexual or behavioural disinhibition.

This interests me. A while ago, I happened upon a vile, English documentary on serial killers, or other notables. I sat through the part where a Japanese man innnn Paris[?] detailed his physical lust for a Dutch young woman; after killing her with a gun, he ate her. At some point, it was mentioned that the serial killers or other notables had a desensitized frontal lobe activity.

I'm not saying that this "frontal lobe tumours cause paedophilia" is applicable to every last paedophile; no, but find it likely that some people can develop physical lust for children, especially marrying this with your trusty, good old friend Wai and the foods causing side effects.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:53 / 08.01.03
From the perspective of neurological science (and leaving morality behind) this change in behaviour is fascinating because it indicates a physical reference point for paedophilia. Quite apart from that I know very little about this kind of thing but would probably lean towards Ganesh and Mordant's doubts about this spontaneously appearing in this man's character.
 
 
Ganesh
05:29 / 08.01.03
There certainly is an overlap between serial killers and frontal lobe anomaly, whether by head injury, birth trauma, or whatever. There's also speculated links with low serotonin and high testosterone balance (I think these were mentioned in that particular documentary) but, as ever, it's difficult to prove any sort of causative association.

And I don't think this does imply a "physical reference point for paedophilia", merely for behavioural disinhibition. Given the relatively high potential for males to be aroused by paedophilic imagery (and I've been reading a whole slew of studies on this, if anyone's interested), I find it much more likely that this unfortunate chap was one of the 20% but had never before acted on what may well have been a secondary or subsidiary sexual attraction - or even an unconscious one.
 
 
000
11:18 / 08.01.03
And I don't think this does imply a "physical reference point for paedophilia", merely for behavioural disinhibition

I follow you there, Ganesh, but there are other factors to consider.

Paedophilia abuse is widespread in the white countries, and these countries consume the most unnatural food sources. The reason why the Quran says why we should not eat pork, is that because - and here I am not implying that the Quran writers knew the exact reason - pork meat is the closest to the human meat. Pork meat is known as an aggressor, due to the arosen substances through preparation, and it is the most cancerous of all red meats.

Pork consumption in the white countries is - as an example - one of the highest in the world; a wholesome human being is not meant to, 1) Eat of his kind, 2) Eat food sources that pervert the physical balance (to my disgust, a recent article claimed that children in day care centres ate too little red meat) and 3) have an unnatural sexual preference (= a decadence which disrupts the unwritten mating rules).

In short, it is highly likely that exposure to factors which cause a perversion in the physical body, can cause a sexual perversion -- how widespread this might be, I have no guesses for, and I am not concluding that every Paedophile has a tumour to blame for his preferences.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:57 / 08.01.03
So what the fuck are they eating in South Africa then?
 
 
000
03:07 / 09.01.03
Oh please, lady.

Spare me that tone.
 
 
000
03:17 / 09.01.03
(In other words, debate with me like a normal human being -- that is, if you're interested in pursuing it)
 
 
the Fool
03:48 / 09.01.03
Paedophilia abuse is widespread in the white countries, and these countries consume the most unnatural food sources. The reason why the Quran says why we should not eat pork, is that because - and here I am not implying that the Quran writers knew the exact reason - pork meat is the closest to the human meat. Pork meat is known as an aggressor, due to the arosen substances through preparation, and it is the most cancerous of all red meats.

Pork consumption in the white countries is - as an example - one of the highest in the world; a wholesome human being is not meant to, 1) Eat of his kind, 2) Eat food sources that pervert the physical balance (to my disgust, a recent article claimed that children in day care centres ate too little red meat) and 3) have an unnatural sexual preference (= a decadence which disrupts the unwritten mating rules).

But don't they eat a lot of pork in asian countries? Asian countries would certainly at the very least (and yes this is a generalisation without proof) consume more pork than beef?

Do the generalisations you present still hold in an Asian context?
 
 
000
15:20 / 09.01.03
Well, there are certainly many options to consider, and some of these were to be after Mordant Carnival's expansion, of what I consider to be a knee jerk reaction.

- Modes of preparation of pork meat is generally not the same in, say, Asian or African circles as in white countries.

- Climate plays an important part, plentiful sun exposure means a healthier human being, whereas large parts of the white countries endure months with next to no sun (and since I moved, one of my losses were sadly some articles where it is noted that enough sun exposure has a healthy effect on cancer, even curing some people completely).

- The effects of food sources are generally different from the white people to the indigenous people (example: the much fabled lactose intolerance has been shown to be way higher in indigenous populations).

- Personal economical restraints that determine which food sources are obtainable; generally that which the given country produces (example: in most white countries, agriculture and farming).

- And that pork meat served as one example, sadly, time constraints mean I will have to provide a fuller response later.
 
 
Ganesh
19:55 / 09.01.03
At the risk of triggering yet another paedophilia/nutrition shitstorm, "paedophilia abuse" doesn't appear confined to any particular ethnic group. Some cultures are more or less permissive of underage sex (and even marriage) but, allowing for the inherent flaws within much research on the subject, there's no real evidence for the geographical distribution you suggest.
 
 
000
21:59 / 09.01.03
Ganesh,

"At the risk of triggering yet another paedophilia/nutrition shitstorm, "paedophilia abuse" doesn't appear confined to any particular ethnic group."

It doesn't have to be a shitstorm, and unless you're inclined for that particular angle, this won't be. Recorded (and I know "recorded" doesn't necessarily cover the actual amount of child abusers the world over) stats are higher in the white countries.

"Some cultures are more or less permissive of underage sex (and even marriage) but, allowing for the inherent flaws within much research on the subject, there's no real evidence for the geographical distribution you suggest."

Now, what could be the most common reason? Could it be that underage sex and marriage (in this case thinking of the muslim communities, in particular) is to avoid any disease that more sexually experienced and mature women might inhabit?

And believe you me, there's real evidence for the geographical distribution. Could you provide something otherwise?
 
 
eye landed
02:57 / 10.01.03
As long as we're on the subject of pork, I must point out that there is a widespread causality assumption being made here. Why did the tumour cause the pedophilia, rather than the pedophilia cause the tumour?

We're pretty sure around here that brain processes precede behaviour, but we don't know if there is causality between mentation and the other two. Lustful thoughts about youngsters could have led to the tumour just as it led to the viewing of pornography. Perhaps we eat pork and get cancer because we are mentally sick.

The point has already been made about common tendencies to lust and the removal of inhibition by physical abnormality, and it is one I agree with. But just bear in mind that it may be easier to understand from the other side, as it were.
 
 
Ganesh
03:19 / 10.01.03
Well, if being aroused by children caused cerebral cancer, then presumably we'd see a lot more cerebral cancer...

Chrome, I know that (particularly in countries where STDs are rampant and religion/culture rails against contraception) sex with underage girls (and boys) is often 'justified' in terms of avoiding such diseases, it's only one of an array of reasons given, past and present, for selecting a (presumably virginal) child as one's sexual partner.

And yeah, assuming we're both gonna play nice, I'll dig out the stuff I've read recently about the cultural and historical context of paedophilic attraction, and post it here in due course.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:58 / 10.01.03
Tdneb Chrome Pork consumption in the white countries is - as an example - one of the highest in the world; a wholesome human being is not meant to, 1) Eat of his kind, 2) Eat food sources that pervert the physical balance (to my disgust, a recent article claimed that children in day care centres ate too little red meat) and 3) have an unnatural sexual preference (= a decadence which disrupts the unwritten mating rules).

Other than for reasons of morality and convention, what's wrong with those things you list above? 3 seems especially dodgy, going back to that discredited 'you only have sex to make babies' argument.
 
 
Ganesh
14:47 / 10.01.03
Who, exactly, decides what human beings are and aren't "meant" to do, anyway?
 
 
000
18:35 / 10.01.03
TransFlower;

I know it isn't a perfect phrasing of intent, but really, school, work and a home where the public transport takes an hour to reach both ways means I won't be wording it out perfectly, however, the intent was this:

Any desire that goes below the age of teenagedom. Anything that is not consentual.

And Ganesh, bring on the knowledge.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:57 / 11.01.03
Okay, that's three, and we can argue another time about whether biologically there is anything wrong with something that current morality frowns upon. But what is wrong with 1 and 2?
 
 
000
13:57 / 11.01.03
TransFlower,

Humans are meant to eat of their kind

&

Humans are not meant to eat of their kind

Which strikes you as the truest?

Especially considering that, prepared pork meat is one of the most addictive things ever, mutates the body in an unhealthy manner (cancer and a long list of others), including the brain.
 
  

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