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I Ching

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
illmatic
14:37 / 28.05.07
Hey Disco

Glad you are finding so stimulating and useful. Your account of your I Ching experience mirrors my own.

I was hell-bent on the first option for a while, and this reading changed my mind entirely.

I’ve often found that when I am unable to understand a reading it’s because I am “hell bent” on a certain interpretation of a situation and actually can’t see the alternatives being depicted.

With regard to multiple changing lines, I used a method given by Joel Biroco’s on his site linkage. In short:

1 line changing – pretty obvious

2 lines changing – top is the most important

3 lines changing – middle is the most important

4 changing – switch to the second hexagram (the hexagram that results from the changes). Take note of the two lines that didn’t change and read the line text for these in the the new hexagram. Bottom of these is the most important.

5 lines changing – again switch to the second hexagram. Take note of the line text for the one line that has not changed.

To illustrate: If you had Hexagram 1, Ch’ien changing into Hexagram 23, Po – you’d read the line text for hexagram 23, line 6. Tell me if this isn’t clear.

6 lines changing – I always see this as a situation where the situation described in the first hexagram is already passing, and I just read the judgment/image for the new hexagram.

I initially used to read all of the changing lines, and focus on the one thrown up by this method, but nowadays, I just go straight for this line. Sometimes I read the others, sometimes I just don't bother. My experience of this is it really clarifies readings for me – I feel like I’m getting very precise, specific advice. I don't think this is the only "right" way to read the Yi, but this works really well for me.

PM me or something if any of this isn't clear. Joel B goes more in depth over on his site.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:50 / 28.05.07
Thanks; that's awesome. I'll try the method and report back on how it goes.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:21 / 09.06.08
It's amusing that I came to look for this thread to add some wisdom, and realised that last time I was here I promised to report back. Well -- the method for indentifying a single moving line to read really does work, beautifully, and it can clarify a situation down to precise co-ordinates. I've been using that method since this time last year, and have never looked back.

But more importantly... Has anyone done any work with Bradford Hatcher's translation and commentary on the ZhouYi? It's amazing. Hatcher's writing is quite beautiful, for a start, but the hexagram and line commentaries often give you a really meditative, broad perspective on the Wilhelm translation. I am moving more and more towards using Wilhelm and then Hatcher afterwards, and it's always Hatcher that makes everything crystal clear.
 
 
illmatic
10:43 / 09.06.08
hey Disco, you might find the forums here interesting http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/

I don't use these forums that much as I can't seem to get into them for some reason, but Bradford is a regular contributor there. Never read his book myself, I should have a look at it. The one I use for backup is a book called "Tao of I Ching" Jou Tsung Hwa. It's an odd book but very interesting. He gives details on the Plum Blossom method of divination (which is basically pulling hexagrams out from events around you through a combination of numerology and intuition, rather than using coins or stalks), a series of woodcuts of the hexagrams (for some visual/intutive stimulation) and best of all a translation of the hexagrams into everyday situations ie. rahter than archaic Chinese, he'll draw comparisions with the line and running a small business, having a burst tyre or an evil boss etc. Sounds cheesy, but it actually works really well and shows his insight.
 
 
Tomb Zero
17:22 / 09.06.08
I've been using the Yijing for somewhere between 15 and 20 years, now. Until a couple of years ago, I always used Wilhelm's translation - but then a friend who has been using the Yi for at least 40 years told me that he thought Wilhelm's translation was next to useless, and suggested that I use Stephen Karcher's translation (published as "Total I Ching" - death to Giles-Wade! Long live Pinyin!). So I bought myself a copy of Karcher's Yi - at first I did not trust it. I'd become so used to Wilhelm, that any other version would have felt 'wrong'. But I persevered, and after two or three months, came to vastly prefer it to Wilhelm. Now, I use it all the time - sometimes I dip back into Wilhelm, when confused over the meaning of a line, and always find that his interpretation is much muddier and harder to understand than Karcher's (for instance, hexagram 26 - Wilhelm calls it "The Taming Power of the Great", whereas Karcher calls it "Great Accumulates", and backs up his translation with reference to the actual Chinese characters that make up the hexagram's name - I don't want to get bogged down too much in details, here, so suffice it to say that Karcher's interpretation is much better, since it takes into account the fact that the characters contain a pictogram of a field with things growing in it).

Also, I find Wilhelm's translation to be absolutely brimful of misogyny, which I am glad to have left behind me. The first example of this sort misogyny to come to my mind is in hexagram 37 - Wilhelm's translation of line 2 reads "She should not follow her whims. She must attend within to the food." - Karcher, on the other hand, translates this line as "Have no concern for achievements or glory. Locate yourself in the centre and feed the people." Having moved away from Wilhelm, I never cease to be amazed at how people who in every other aspect of their lives cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as misogynists, swallow this rubbish, and pass over a line that says, essentially (in Wilhelm), "a woman's place is in the kitchen" (although I should also point out that when the line speaks of "her whims", it is implying that women's desires are not serious, but merely trifling "whims") without their bullshit detectors going off.

I also like the way that Karcher has kept Confucius at arms' length. There was always something about the phrase "the superior man" that made me shudder. There's the "man" thing, to begin with (why not woman?), but also the "superior" bit - I'm deeply uncomfortable with the the way Wilhelm's Yi attempts to make it's users feel superior to other people. This "superior man" stuff comes from Confucius, though, to be fair to Wilhelm. The Chinese term is "Junzi", which Karcher translates as "noble one", which I find much less loaded. That said, Karcher does not throw out the baby with the bathwater, and brings Confucius into the equation when Confucius has something useful to say. For instance, in the second line of hexagram 13, I've always found Confucius' commentary to be both highly poetic and illuminating. Karcher does not ditch Confucius, in this instance, but references the passage to which I'm referring, here. In case your interested, Confucius says, of this line:

"Life leads the thoughtful man on a path of many windings. Now the course is checked, now it runs straight again. Here winged thoughts may pour freely forth in words, there the heavy burden of knowledge must be shut away in silence. But when two people are at one in their inmost hearts, they shatter even the strength of iron or of bronze. And when two people understand each other in their inmost hearts, their words are sweet and strong, like the fragrance of orchids." (beautiful, huh?)

None of what I say here is to suggest either that Wilhelm's translation is completely without worth (I used it for many years, and feel that the Yi still managed to speak through his distortions of it), or that Karcher has come up with the 'final' or 'best' translation of the Yi. There are things about Karcher that deeply irritate me - I find that his philosophy borders, at times, upon the New Age, and get particularly annoyed at his repeated use of the phrase "turn conflict into creative tension", for instance. I also think there's times when he makes mythical connections that are simply not present in the original text: hexagram 3, for instance, shows a picture of a seedling piercing through the soil to climb up into the light: Karcher connects this image with the World Tree, although to me the World Tree is completely irrelevant to the hexagram, which is concerned with the tenderness and delicacy of beginnings (for once, Wilhelm's version of the hexagram's general meaning is probably more spot-on than Karcher's). But despite Karcher's shortcomings, I can hand on heart say that I think it's a much better translation than Wilhelm.

None of this is intended to belittle anyone's use of Wilhelm's Yi, you understand. I just wanted to outline my own experience of the two versions, and the conclusions I've come to after using both.
 
 
Tomb Zero
18:43 / 09.06.08
It just occurred to me - the reason I prefer Karcher to Wilhelm is, in a nutshell, that Wilhelm's Yi constantly moralises, like some puritan preacher, while Karcher's simply describes the situation and the best course of action.
 
 
grant
18:58 / 09.06.08
Wilhelm was a missionary to start with, wasn't he?

On translating "superior man" - gender's a minefield in the Yijing, since the trigrams are gendered (sons and daughters and mother and father) while the language is gendered in some ways and not in others (no "he" or "she", only "ta"). I'm not familiar with the word "junzi" but "zi" is the same honorific tagged to Laozi and Kongfuzi... and to the word "erzi", which means "son," or even "son-son." ("Daughter" is "nuer" or "nuzi"; "boy" is "xiaozi" - "nu" means "feminine" and "xiao" means "little.")

Zhongwen.com tells me "junzi" means "noble/monarch"+"son".

I'm not sure what I'd do with it if translating it was my job. Probably something like Karcher, but Wilhelm/Baynes might be closer to the original in some ways.

I kinda like the Star Daodejing mentioned elsewhere, as far as translations go. It's kind of three-in-one - first, something readable in English, second a literal word-by-word version, then a third that shows each character with its meaning next to it. I don't think anyone's done that with the Yijing, but it'd be nice.
 
 
Tomb Zero
13:59 / 10.06.08
I think you have a point, Grant - much of the misogyny was probably present in the original text. But then, what is the original text? The Yijing is older than the Zhouyi, so it's possible that the earliest versions were not so anti-female. Although then again, perhaps not - China is, after all, infamous for the poor treatment meted out to women, there (female friends of mine in Hong Kong have many sad, sad stories to tell), and misogyny is very deeply ingrained in Chinese culture. Who knows how far back it goes? Perhaps it would have been more appropriate for me to say that Karcher's is a better version of the Yi, rather than a better translation.

As for Junzi - personally, if I were putting together a translation of the Yi, I wouldn't translate it. I'd have a section near the beginning explaining the term Junzi, and discussing its various problems, and then I'd just write "Junzi behaves in such-and-such a way, in such-and-such a situation", rather than either "the Superior Man" or "Noble One".
 
 
grant
23:48 / 10.06.08
Just out of curiosity, have you seen Alfred Huang's translation? I kinda like his character definitions, although I've read they're not as accurate as they could be (I don't think I've found discrepancies when I check 'em against the Zhongwen dictionary, but I've only looked up a few of them.)
 
 
Tomb Zero
19:50 / 11.06.08
I've not seen the Alfred Huang Yi, Grant, no. Sounds interesting, though, and I think it's about time I had a new Yi, since for all my praise of Karcher, I still don't think I've found the best Yi for me. I'd like to see some of the versions listed in Karcher's bibliography, too - namely Richard Alan Kunst's The Original Yijing: A Text, Phonetic Transcription and Index with Sample Glosses, Rhichard Rutt's Zhouyi: The Book of Changes, and Wu Jing-Nuan's Yi Jing. I'm not sure I'll ever find my ideal Yi, though - I may attempt writing my own, one day (although I'm wary of attempting this, having seen the rather under-achieving results of various friends' efforts in that direction). I'd like to see a Yi without a modern author - a Yi that just presented the original chinese text (the pithy, poetic stuff, you know) without any glosses.

The Star Daodejing you mention sounds like something I need to see, too! Of all the translations of the Daodejing I've read, so far, I find the one by Stephen Addiss and Stanley Lombardo to be the best - it helped me understand Laozi in a way that I would never have got to without it.
 
 
Tomb Zero
19:57 / 11.06.08
I kinda like his character definitions

I think what I found most useful, in Karcher's Yi, was the way that he explained the Chinese characters that name each hexagram, detailing not simply the meaning of each word, but also what each character is a picture of, and how this relates to the hexagram. It opened my eyes to a strata of meaning, in the Yi, that I was unaware of, until then, because Wilhelm's Yi doesn't explain anything about the Chinese characters at all.
 
 
grant
22:25 / 11.06.08
Yeah, Huang does the same thing. Biroco is kinda down on Huang for not citing sources and playing a little fast and loose with the history, but I kinda like his sense of *story* more than authority or scholarship, if that makes sense.

I like the way he strings the hexagrams into a narrative, and I like the discussion he gives of the bits of the pictures in the characters. And I even like the historical bits that he gives around the lines commentaries - making them all illustrate some anecdote or other about King Wen or someone.
 
 
Tomb Zero
06:01 / 13.06.08
The more I hear about Huang's Yi, the more I want to see it! I think a sense of story is really important to the Yijing, and personally, I'd be prepared to sacrifice some historical authenticity in the name of meaningful story. Again (and at the risk of sounding like a broken record), this is one of the things I like most about Karcher.

I wanted to mention, here, that none of my Chinese friends have any idea of what the Yijing is - the younger generation, it seems, is not familiar with it at all. Face-reading, palm-reading, Kau Cim ('Chi-Chi Sticks'), and Zi Wei Dou Shu are *far* more popular, in contemporary China, as methods of divination. But then maybe this is thread-rot, so I'll be quiet!
 
 
Tomb Zero
06:21 / 13.06.08
I do have some hesitations about stories in the Yijing, mind you. One is that I've yet to see a version that links the 64 hexagrams together into one linear narrative - all the versions I've seen make some attempt at this, and all those attempts have, if you ask me, failed. I'm not sure the order that the hexagrams come in is meant to tell a story (or that that order is the 'original' order). My other hesitation is that I'm wary of the potential for Zhou propaganda, and mistrustful of the whole 'mandate of heaven' thing - I'm no expert on Chinese history, but I find it difficult to believe that the Shang were eviler-than-evil, and that the Zhou were gooder-than-good - particularly since it's the Zhou who won, and who therefore got to write the history. These things said, though, I do think that story is essentially what the Yi is dealing in - it uncovers the 'story of the time', the archetypal tale underlying your particular situation. So I'm all in favour of the lines being presented as stories.
 
 
Tomb Zero
06:24 / 13.06.08
I've yet to see a version that links the 64 hexagrams together into one linear narrative

I meant to write "into one convincing linear narrative".
 
 
grant
13:44 / 13.06.08
On narrative: Well, I think there's supposed be some kind of connection between the hexagrams in order (and with their inverses, and with whatever the changing lines send you to), so it's less a story in Huang than a sense of causation - some of the connections are pretty tenuous, and I half-suspect he was using these connections in a mnemonic way when he was studying the Jing in prison.

Which segues into: none of my Chinese friends have any idea of what the Yijing is - the younger generation, it seems, is not familiar with it at all.

That was part of the project of the Cultural Revolution in the People's Republic - stamping out all cultural remnants of feudalism. In Taiwan, I've heard you can still find fortunetellers casting yarrow sticks on street corners during festivals. And I know there's some kind of cultural currency to it in Japan, because it gets quoted by characters in the recent Gamera remakes the same way the Book of Revelation gets quoted in, like, The Omen (which is, I guess, not terribly accurately, but still *there*, you know?).

Anyway, Huang's own story is dramatic enough to be fiction - studying the Yijing in secret, imprisoned, sentenced to death, exiled to Hawaii.
 
 
Tomb Zero
06:10 / 05.07.08
I just wanted to add that I think that the spirits of the Yi work with whatever version you happen to be using - Wilhelm, Huang, Karcher, whatever. Whichever version I've consulted, I've had answers that contain text that is uncannily appropriate to my particular situation - and that text is often part of the particular author's interpretation, rather than from the original text of the Yi itself. That said, I also think that the oracle prefers some versions to others, and will work better with some versions than others.
 
 
Dusto
19:14 / 05.07.08
I haven't looked at the original Chinese of the yijing, so I'm wondering: with regard to gender, which "ta" does it use? In modern Chinese, at least, there are three separate characters (all pronounced "ta") that mean variously he, she, and it. Is this the case in the Classical language, or does it just use one "ta" for all three?
 
 
Tomb Zero
17:11 / 06.07.08
I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question, Dusto. However, perhaps this can help you to find out - it's the 'original' Chinese text.
 
 
Dusto
17:41 / 06.07.08
Great website, thanks. Interestingly, I just glanced over about ten of the 64 hexagrams, and none of the text (including line text) used any pronouns, even when the English did. Line 3 of Hexagram 10, for instance. In English "he," but no "ta" of any sort. My Chinese isn't great, and I've never studied the Classical language at all, and my cursory glance probably doesn't mean much, but interesting nonetheless. If I find anything else, I'll let you know.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
00:01 / 07.07.08
As far as I know, all of the Sino-Tibetan languages traditionally only had epicene pronouns; the differentiation in written Mandarin only came around after the May Fourth Movement. Cantonese, I think, still only has one written 3rd-person singular pronoun.
 
 
grant
19:05 / 08.07.08
Here's a pretty good piece on translating classical Chinese poetry. The Yijing might not exactly be poetry - or not *only* poetry - but as mentioned above, the original texts do seem to have been written as little songs.

The essay shows how a translator gets from a string of characters literally translated as:

bamboo/flute cold/disheartened invade/encroach_on lie_down/crouch inside/domestic

field/wilderness moon/month full/satisfied courtyard/hall corner/remote_place

heavy/double dew/exposed completed/fixed brook/select/pure drip/drop_of_water


to the lines:

Into my room comes the smell of cold bamboo,
and beyond the courtyard: fields, wilderness, a full moon.
I watch the water drops collect from the clear dew....


The real emphasis of the essay is on what's happening with the last three lines of the poem, which may be about war, or may just be about the weather.
 
 
Tomb Zero
09:16 / 18.07.08
I've been using the Yi for years and years, as I think I probably said, and I find it to be the oracle that is most suited to me (I found that I just didn't 'gel' with the tarot or the runes - although I use both as meditational tools). But, over the last couple of years, I've found myself more and more aware of the limitations of any oracle. What I find with the Yi, is that forewarned doesn't mean fore-armed. Often, it tells me things that only become clear later, after the events it was talking about have happened - and even when I can understand what it's talking about before what it's talking about happens, I often don't feel as if that makes me any more able to deal with the situation (whatever the situation may be). I also think that there's a big 'dark side' to any oracle - when the shit has hit the fan, and you're in one of those horribly distressing times that life has a habit of throwing at you, an oracle, I find, can easily become an escape from reality, rather than a means of dealing with reality better - and it can also just encourage you to obsess upon your problems. One more problem I find is that oracles often just pick up on what you're already thinking, and throw it right back at you, like a mirror - so if you really, really want a particular outcome, then the oracle will often reflect that desire by giving you a reading that makes it looks like all your wishes are going to come true, when in fact it's just the oracle acting like a mirror. I wonder if anyone here has similar feelings, and can perhaps point me in a useful direction...
 
 
grant
15:41 / 18.07.08
Divining mirror.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am. I still find them fascinating and useful, but all oracles seem to be based around a hermeneutic conversation - you and the text. Which means you're carrying at least half the water as it is.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:49 / 19.07.08
Tomb Zero:

I use the I Ching in a slightly different way to you, I think. This line in particular touches on something that I've found:

What I find with the Yi, is that forewarned doesn't mean fore-armed. Often, it tells me things that only become clear later, after the events it was talking about have happened - and even when I can understand what it's talking about before what it's talking about happens, I often don't feel as if that makes me any more able to deal with the situation (whatever the situation may be)

I very rarely use the I Ching to tell me what is going to happen; rather I describe an existing situation that has a number of (equally valid) options for resolution, and ask for advice on which one.

Some years ago, for example, I had an issue with someone at work, knew that I had to take some action, and asked for advice. The advice was to deal with it one-on-one, and the outcome would be favourable. It would have been equally valid for me to have done nothing, or to have raised it in a group environment. I did what was advised, and the situation resolved itself to everyone's benefit.

If I'm trying to forecast, then I use the runes; for whatever reason, these seem 'better' to me.

Runes = "What is going to happen."
I Ching = "What will happen if I do X."

I hope that helps.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:47 / 14.09.11
Bumping for awesome.
 
  

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