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I Ching

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18:52 / 26.09.02

I've been discussing with exp the idea of pulling together a Barb I Ching thread similar to Tarot and the Runes indexs, only using the 8 trigrams as a basis at first, rather than going through all 64 hexagrams: that could be a looong thread Before I dive in, anyone else up for this?
Alternatively we could have a much looser I Ching discussion thread incorporating questions, ideas, people's thought on alternative versions of the text, different methods of divination, thoughts and feelings, that sort of thing. I tend to use the WIlhelm version, which can be found online here . A biography of Wilhelm can be found here . An interesting character and worthy of debate himself.
So who's up for it? Your votes, please!

18:54 / 26.09.02

And a question to start with - have you ever used the I Ching - if so which version? How useful did you find it? How does it compare with other methods of divination

19:24 / 26.09.02

we touched on the topic here.

10:01 / 28.09.02

I kinda fell in love with the book as soon as I opened it. To date, I'm working my way through Part II of Wilhelm's translation, savouring it a bit at a time. I've done five or six castings, and they've provoked the following preliminary amateur questions:

(i) Jung (in his introdcution) disagrees that only the changing lines are relevant to a particular casting - he claims he finds meaning in all six. Do experienced users recommend taking the whole hexagram into account, just the changing lines, or both to an extent?

(ii) RE: When the hexagram becomes a second hexagram due to the nature of the changing lines. Do you take the entire hexagram into account, just the changing lines, or do you ignore the lines altogether? I tried an online reading, and it didn't reproduce any of the lines for the second hexagram.

(iii) I sometimes have difficulty relating the second hexagram to my original question. Is this because it's descriptive of a state that I haven't reached yet, or because of my uncertainty in (ii) above?

As far as the nature of this thread, I think it would be useful to do things free-format, in which general questions are raised and people post their own commentaries on individual aspects of the text. I for one am going to find this extremely useful.

11:21 / 29.09.02

Hi Exp.I agree with you about the book. I'm similairly enamoured. I've been using it for a few years and have found it a really striking and compeling tool for thinking and insight. I've read around a little on it and it seems there are inumerable ways to divine, just as there are innumerable versions of the text. Best thing is to keep on experimenting!
Having said all that, I tend to stick to Wilhelm's "rules" when I use the text. I don't count the mon-moving lines, as Jung did, neither do I take account of changing lines in the second hexagram. Taking account of all these extra lines seems like it might get a bit confusing, if you are divining about a specific situation, though it may well be a good way of gaining insight into the hexagram itself. Perhaps this is what Jung is getting at in his introduction, as he seems to be investigating the I Ching's nature at first, rather than exploring a specific situation?
As for the third question, about relating to the second hexagram, hmmm.... well, some commentators say that the initial hexagram indicates the current situation while the second shows "what is to come" but I actually think this is too fixed and linear an approach myself. Sometimes the first hexagram seems to be the situation in hand, while the second and the moving lines indicate advice as to how to bring things to their best resolution. It varies from reading to reading though, sometimes I discount the second hex. (or the moving lines) entirely.
What I tend to do is look through the whole reading (first hex> moving lines> second hex) and look for points in the text, or insight I have about the hexagrams/lines that strike me as relevant, discarding any information as I see fit. I then try and take this as advice to cultivate in my life (that's the hard bit!)
If you're not already doing so, perhaps keep a record of your readings and refer back to them, to see if this generates any more insight. I often take a few days to make my mind up about a reading. I've often found that the most seemingly inaccurate consultations have been that which I've learnt the most from, it's just that I'd closed my thoughts/options down to a little box, and the reading is refering beyond these limits.

12:11 / 29.09.02

Quick aside to the main thread: I'm working on formatting Wilhelm's translation with an commentary based on his work for Pocket PC Word. Mainly so I can cast anywhere without necessarily having the big text to hand. Anyone who wants the files can PM me their email address. Takes up about one meg in total.

20:33 / 29.09.02

I used it more in my youth, an old mass market paperback from the seventies was my favorite one. I used five pennies and a dime rather than yarrow sticks, which worked just fine. It was a quality oracle, like a particularly blunt friend it got quite snarky at times. I can't honestly remember why I stopped using it.

18:23 / 30.09.02

Pocket PC Word - will it only work on the PDA, then?

05:02 / 01.10.02

Nah, it'll work on any PC with Word Pad. It's just for convenience, and I guess turning on a PC is less convenient for most people than opening the book.

The Tower Always Falls

03:00 / 25.11.02

heh. Just found this thread.

I actually don't use the Wilhelm translation exclusively. My I-Ching is done by some guy named Rudolf Ritsema and the Eranos group, and specifically translated from the 1715 "Kang Hsi" (Palace Edition). Kind of like the King James version of the I-Ching in the East. This is the text that Wilhelm used for his translation and was also the basis for that Harvard edition. They basically cut out a lot of the Confucian commentaries and imperical thoughtful asides out of this translation, leaving this version to be poetic at best and obtuse at the worst. Personally, I kind of like the fact that these guys tried to make as pure a translation as possible based upon the original Chinese with no added interpretation. The differences are apparent right from the get-go. Hexagram 1 (Ch'ien) is translated as "Force" as opposed to "The Creative", and for me- this gives the whole oracle a more primal feel when I use it. Having said that, I have a copy of the Wilhelm edition set aside for added help in decoding and I use it pretty regularly.

I always count the moving lines in the first hexagram, as that seems to be where the really interesting bits and color arise for me. I occasionally look at the second hexagram but I very VERY rarely bother looking at the chagning lines in it. The inital oracle is almost always spot-on for me, whereas the second hexagram is sometimes a bit more confusing. I agree that looking at it in terms of just "present" future" is a bit simplistic, and I prefer to look at it as "Here's what attitude you should consider now." Like I cast an oracle asking if I would get any call-back on this resume I sent somewhere. The first oracle was 62 (Small Exceeding), meaning basically no progress. The changing line at second implied bent rules and a servant not being allowed to advance by his master, which, um... sort of summed up what happened when my boss found the fax confirmation of my resume on the fax machine. The second hexagram was 32, "Persevering" (Continuity in the Wilhelm version), which seems to sum up the situation quite nicley for me.

heh. Didn't mean to sound like "My I-Ching is better than YOURS, NYAH!" Hope no one took it as such.

I used to do the I-Ching... But I had to feed the meter...

11:21 / 25.11.02

I've been interested in the I ching for years but I don't have a clue where to start. Please could somebody explain this simply to me?
Thanks in advance

13:36 / 25.11.02

This seems like a good explanation of the Coins method which is simplest to start with.

I use the Richard Wilhelm one, not to disparage any of the others, if you've got an esoteric booksop near you you might be able to look through a selection.

This guy knows far too much about the I Ching.

This is the biblography from his site. I've seen the Alfred Huang one he mentions - it's pretty nice.

16:37 / 25.11.02

So, I have this rocking 'Easy I ching' app on my palm pilot that I've been consulting on and off for a month. Only problem being, there's no way to go back and look at the hexagram afterwards. That is - you cast it, you read the commentaries, then you do something else (i.e., finish that game of hearts).

But you can't then look up your hexagram for further pondering. So, does anyone have a site that has cool analysis and commentaries on the hexagrams? Is that what we're trying to do with this Barb-Ching idea?

And, thirdly, with the Barb-Tarot, Barb-runes, and other such compendia, is there a way for the moderators to have a permanent part of the forum, where such things could be stored? Maybe an FTP site, maybe just an HTML glossolaliary or somesuch?

Wrecks City-Zen

20:59 / 25.11.02

If you only knew how long I have been petitioning for a permanent home for those indexes. Tom is sick from hearing from me...start a thread in POLICY if you are so inclined.

Thanks in advance.

22:08 / 25.11.02

iconoplast - The files I have are just a paraphrase of the Wilhelm edition in a Wordpad format. You're welcome to them if you don't mind me clogging up your email inbox.

02:55 / 26.11.02

I use the Aktiv E-Ching on my PDA, and I like it a lot. It gives the moving lines, and the movement following hexigram, and all the relevant entries. You can also troll through the hexigrams, so its like a pocket Book of Changes.

04:13 / 26.11.02

funny... i'd just been bounding through the I-Ching threads, and considered posting my appreciation for Aktiv's E-Ching, and thought, "nah, these people are Serious; they probably cut their own yarrow stalks, y'know?" Thanks, cus. I definitley don't know what I think I know.

07:26 / 04.02.03

I've got to stick in a plug for this excellent I Ching site.It exists to make available a reviews of I Ching books, formerly published by "The Oracle" a journal of I Ching studies, now defunct. It features loads of reviews including this excellent critical exposition of books available, an introduction to the subject and these hints on divination which I think anybody with an interest in the subject will find useful.

I'm going to be ploughing my way through it over the next couple of days. An invaluable resource, I think.

Nietzsch E. Coyote

19:37 / 04.02.03

Simulations of the Yarrow Stalk Oracle

This is a webpage that uses chaos math to approximate the process of using yarrow stocks. Because the coin process has a different probability they argue that it distorts your draw.

Casting of 6 hyperlines(changeable)

13:31 / 27.07.03

Question for Illmatic. El duderino.

(Although I guess anyone can answer)

What do you generally do if one of the coins lands in an indeterminate position? I know it's unlikely, but I did a casting just now when one of the coins landed on my bag, and it didn't land on either side.

As it was it was more on one side than the other. When I recast the opposite side was uppermost. Whichever way I choose to go, both hexagrams seem applicable to my situation. I was thinking about taking account of both ways the coin fell, especially as when I take the second option the two hexagrams cast are linked by transformation.

What do you reckon? I'm leaning towards using it.

08:01 / 28.07.03

Well, this tends not to happen to me, cos I use a die. (A four sided one, rectanglular, 1+2 Yin/Yang - unchanging and 3+4 Yin/Yang - changing, just in case anyone is remotely interested).

But.... the site I link above covers this. The author states that in this situtaion you should probably go with what you see first ie. if the coin is on it's side, but one side catches your eye first then take that. But then again, it's best just to use your intuition, I think. Go with what you feel best with - the same counts if you drop the coins or whatever. There's nothing wrong with recasting for clarification anyway, it's just recasting over and over trying desperately to get a result, without making real efforts to understand that is to be avoided. (having said that, I tend not to do it, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it).

If the same hexagram has come up twice in both readings, I'd say it's important and pertinent to the situation. I'd take both the reading on board and look for correpspondences between the two, I guess.
Sounds like your leaning toward the second anyway, so go for that, I guess.

14:58 / 28.07.03

I've always used 3 coins; Mazarine, how do you use 6, with one silver?

Second, I bought a Shambhala pocket classics version of the IChing for travel purposes, because I'm something of a luddite, I guess; it's interesting, anyway, to have a different translation of the text--this is by one Thomas Cleary. It doesn't replace the trusty Willhelm for me (but I'm interested definitely in the Ur-text by Ritsema and Eranos
that TTAF mentioned. This book, rather than seeming to hold to the changing line theory, emphasizes that one should look to the primal correlate of the original hexagram and its structural complement.

For example:

#10 Treading (or "Conduct" in Willhelm) has a correlate with #46 Rising (Pushing Upward in Willhelm) and a complement with #15 Humility (Modesty, Willhelm).

It's seems to want to emphasize a holistic understanding of the book; remembering that all the signs are interconnected, and that it's important to have familiarity with the whole in order to best understand the parts.

I love it because it's like being given a strange poem to work with and intertwine with your life while you meditate on a situation or problem.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

20:26 / 28.07.03

The I Ching just blows me away (hah) every time. I actually laugh out loud at many of the results for being so unbelievably uncanny. It is so blatantly Ronseal (sorry non-GB peeps, it's an England TV thang) that I find I actually treat it with great respect and don't abuse it by trite or inconsequential meanderings.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, but the results are never so good, and it feels great to work through stuff in a Chingy way before hand and find that it's all there anyway.

09:19 / 16.01.06

I thought I'd revive this thread as there seems to be a bit of an interest in the I Ching lately, spinning off Moneyshot's thread.

Also, I'm shocked and appalled to find I said upthread that I sometimes discount the moving lines. Since writing that I've changed my focus and now regard these as the most important part of the divination. If I throw a heagram with mutliple moving lines, i now use a method (taken from the site linked to above) to highlight one of them. I find find this brings a real precision and increased clarity to my readings.

09:39 / 16.01.06

Do any of you cast the I Ching in a ritual context? As in, call on the Spirits of the Oracle or something like that, prior to casting the coins? How do you frame your interactions with it? What do you do/think in the instants before throwing the oracle? How do you think the I Ching works? How do you frame the intelligence behind it? What is it supposed to be that you are consulting?

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

09:50 / 16.01.06

That's an interesting question, and one I'll definitely answer when I have a bit more time...I'm back to work after being all mangled up with nasty last week, so I have a mountain to climb right now...so, later...yes, in a word...

10:15 / 16.01.06

I normally light some incense and say a short prayer to the spirits of the Yi and other lineages I wokr with. But it doesn't seem to make a big difference compared to when I don't do it. I do this out of respect to whatever-it-is that makes it work. I'm aware of some more complicated procedures that go alongside working with the triagrams but I've never tried them. These seem to be moving away from divination into Taoist magic.

I try and ask questions that will point me towards a course of action - "how should I react to x ...", "how can I make best use of situation y ...". Works better for me than more passive questions. I'll sometimes do two different readings for going ahead/not going ahead with a certain course of action, which works quite well.

What do you do/think in the instants before throwing the oracle

I try and focus on the question but my mind invarably wanders and again, it doesn't seem to matter if I've slipped off into a bit of a reverie ...

As to what makes it work, I just think of them as "spirits", to be honest. This certainly makes more sense than any of the psychological explanations, to me. I wish I knew. I do feel that the intelligence behind the I Ching doesn't have an agenda of it's own to push though. It's like still water, and will reflect back what you throw into it.

Historically, dinvination links to ancestor worship, as the earliest divinations would have been carried out by Shang royalty, consulting the spirits of ancient kings, to seek their approval and oracles for coures of action.

10:23 / 16.01.06

Obviously, very interested in other people's take on this..

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

10:49 / 16.01.06

Aye, traditionally, one is consulting the ancestors, who make it work...

On a side note, I still don't have proper time to attend to the GL question, but something I'd like to know off users:

Have you ever asked it what it is? What result did you get?

If not, give it a whirl.

10:54 / 16.01.06

I am just starting to work practically with this, after a long time background interest..

Biroco's site has been very helpful. Good discussion of the moving lines there...

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/basics.htm

17:46 / 16.01.06

I started something on the wiki.

If we do start indexing trigrams or hexagrams, it'd be neater to do them as threads on the messageboard first, and then just link to them. (We did that with the Barbelith Runes and Barbelith Tarot wiki pages.)

But anything generally about the I Ching -- links to other pages, comments and/or reviews of various translations -- would make a really nice addition to the wiki. So if you got anything, please add it!

18:06 / 16.01.06

Just so you people see how much a begginer I am, I didn`t even knew we could read lines separatedly, only the hexagrams as a whole. INterpretation arising solely from the difference between first and second hexagrams.

I`m using a pocket-book version of the I-Ching that does not even mention the changing lines individually, or how to interpret them. M$ have already helped me a little, but, man!, long road ahead, I reckon...

18:15 / 16.01.06

Not really sure about a trigram index now, Grant. I don't think they "map over" to that kind of qabalistic thinking in the same way that other systems do. I'll try and add some stuff to the WIKI when I get the time. Others may feel different though.

Dead Megatron: Get yourself Richard Wilhelm's edition, pronto. The full length one, as well, not the pocketbook. I Ching without changing lines is a car without wheels.

18:24 / 16.01.06

I dearly love the I Ching, although I'm in no way an expert on it - it's the idea of the thing, the 'capturing' of the ebb and flow of the Tao, and its sheer simplicity that I like.

I first learned about it from PK Dick's "The Man in the High Castle", where it's put to fascinating use.

18:53 / 16.01.06

Ilmatic, for a moment I was worried if there's a Portuguese translation of Richard Wilhelm's I-Ching, but after a quick Google search, I find out there is, so I`ll follow your sugestion.

But I'm keeping the coins I got with the pocket-book, they are cool, and they seem to be working so far.

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