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I Ching

 
  

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grant
19:41 / 20.01.06
Here, I almost forgot about this:

The Wengu Yijing. It's one of the best I Ching (Yijing) presentations I've seen on the web. Roll your cursor over things to find out what positions mean, what constituent trigrams there are, and bunches of other stuff. Uses the Wilhelm translation. It's actually a French site in English, so there are occasional... oddnesses. But nothing severe.
 
 
c0nstant
00:10 / 21.01.06
I have nothing massively useful to add to this thread as a neophyte, but I just tried my first casting and...well, the results are incredibly accurate. I could recount if anyone's interested (I doubt ya will be!). Other than that thank you for a great thread at the perfect time!

those links were great as well, cheers Illmatic
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:22 / 04.04.06
Bumpity-bump.

So, anyway, Illmatic suggested that I:

Buy a copy of Richard Wilhelm's translation of the I Ching, and use it every time you feel appropriate for a minimum of 6 months. Keep a diary of your readings and note how accurate they seem to be. Work at the interpretations (feel free to PM if you need help with this). You might begin by asking how to best approach it, or about your skepticism!

I'm always open to suggestions (and it seemed an appropriate time as I started learning Mandarin this year) so I picked up the suggested version over this weekend just gone. It'll be a little while before I start using it as I thought it would be a good idea to read through the first chapter and just get an idea in my head about the hexagrams themselves and what they're about.

Of course, your basic Evil Scientist is going into this with more of a "psychological tool" view of things rather than getting all !!23!11!! about it. The description of it as a method of interrogating your unconcious seems to ring nicely with my personnal views on the reality of magic.

I'll be kicking off my little investigation as soon as possible, most likely using coins as it seems a lot easier and straightforward than messing about with yarrow stalks. We'll see how it goes.

But; thoughts, advice, and comments are all welcome.
 
 
illmatic
13:52 / 04.04.06
Well, good on you for being open minded.

I agree that it’s good to get some familiarity with the material. I think Grant’s blog is doing a basic look at the trigrams at the moment (link someone!).. Jung’s introduction is quite fun However, I wouldn’t too much about being unfamiliar with the material though. It’s not really something you learn in advance – I suppose it’s a language and you learn on the job, like most languages.

I often tend to reinterpret the sometimes military/governance-like symbolism as referring to internal situations. – ie. Something like the “superior man gathers allies” might mean “pull together the different parts of yourself”. Not always, but it’s useful if you’re stuck. I also find, as I said upthread – that the readings I’ve learnt the most from are those I couldn’t make sense of at first. Largely, this is because I’ve become fixed in mind/attached to a certain outcome and am not being open to alternative understandings.

Also, I use the method given on Joel Biroco’s site for narrowing down the changing lines. ( See here - scroll to “How to interpret changing lines”) Each line can be moving from yan to ying, or vice versa so you might have as many as 6 in each reading. To narrow this down I use the method suggested to focus in on one. This seems more precise somehow, and you’re left with less material to ingest.

Hope you enjoy it and find it useful – let us know how you get on!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:56 / 04.04.06
Approach without any agenda/mindset, and delay forming one until after a couple of months of using it and applying what it suggests. Open minded, like.

If using the coins method for obtaining hexagrams, be sure to meditate for at least 15 minutes on your question before casting...at least until you are more familiar with divination and able to recognise when it is appropriate to begin.

In spite of what Wilhelm and many other translations may tell you, 'heads' equals 2 and 'tails' equals 3. The Correct Significance of Rites of the Tang dynasty (7th Century) is the source for this, so if anyone has any better info, please share. It's not that big a deal, but authenticity and non-appropriation of culture tends to be a crowd pleaser hereabouts, so there it is. (Alternatively, get Chinese coins with no faces or backs)

Find out about the Nuclear or Mutual gua if your book doesn't include it. It provides a broad exposition on your present situation. Not only that, it reveals very interesting things about the deep structure of the entire matrix of the oracle.

Ask it (The I Ching) what it is.

Be aware that the Relating Gua is not 'the future'...it represents how you, the enquirer, are related to the Primary Figure. It could be future potential, overriding concern, a warning, goal, desired outcome of chain of past causation that resulted in the present process of change. If you like, it is the 'sea in which the Primary Figure swims'. ooh la la.

Find out about the Bagua and Wuxing. As with the heads/tails bizniz, this is not really essential to using the I Ching, nor important to a beginner at all at all, but, well, you're a scientist. You want to look under the bonnet, not marvel at the upholstery, am I right?

The Change Operators, Steps of Change and Mirror World are worth investigating if you find you are impressed with the Oracle in its most basic form. You will require much more time to divine, but will end up with a spread of up to 10 Hexagrams/Gua, describing a deep, complex matrix of change relating to your question. Don't fuss about it to begin with, but bear in mind there is far more to the system than the Primary and Relating Gua, and the deeper you investigate and practice, the clearer and more instructional the oracle.

That's about 3-6 months worth of study right there, since you presumably have a life outside of the I Ching which you'll have to mind as well. I look forward to hearing about your findings and feelings once you've given it a good whirl. Om av kaa aah!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:26 / 04.04.06
Oh, and most important thing (particularly for a curious secular scientist, which should prove challenging) : Revere the oracle. Don't ask frivolous questions. Be sure you really want insight into or advice about a problem you face or decision you are about to take.

It's a treatise on the Dao, an exposition on the eternal process of change as it relates to an enquiring point of consciousness, and not really equipped to tell you what your favourite colour is, who is going to win the FA Cup or what it really has got in its pocketses.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:21 / 25.04.06
Life with I Ching seems to be going well. Some good advice from it last night in fact.

Asking for an oracle of the next seven days I got Enthusiasm (with 6 at the first line). Which, applying it to my current situation, has galvanised me to improve my relationship with the lab staff I supervise for, (albeit in a cautious way due to that weak line). I'm trying to gauge what it maight be suggesting for my life outside of work, so more later hopefully.
 
 
illmatic
10:44 / 25.04.06
I'd ask seperately for each seperate situation, myself. I tend to find the more finely tuned and specific the questions are, the better the results.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:11 / 09.08.06
Sometimes the ol' I Ching gets it right on the head. Waiting for the builders to turn up this morning (after three weeks of them mucking me around) I was getting a little impatient as I had to go to work.

So cast those crazy coins asking if I should be patient with them. Got myself 14 with active lines at two and five. Which I kind of interpret as "Be patient, but don't take any crap." (kind of a reductive interpretation but I'm in the lab and don't have my book with me).

So I held off phoning the company to tear them a new one, the builders turned up and the job will hopefully be finished today (rather than the three days they quoted me).

I'm still finding the accuracy of the results to be a little spotty in general though (although maybe it's my interpretation of the results which are off). Sometimes the results don't really seem to answer what I'm asking.

Advice?
 
 
illmatic
09:36 / 09.08.06
What I find sometimes is that the results seem to reflect the situation you're in, rather than offering a specifc response to a question - rather, it seems to paint a picture of the situation, and you can extrapolate your response from that.

What I'd do is look closely at the hexagram and changing lines - in particularly the latter, and ask yourself if it fits your life situation or circumstances. Is there a specifc message there that you can apply? Does the imagery used evoke or suggest anything specifc? And go from there.

I've also mentioned above it's worth considering what your preconceptions were or are. What have you made up your mind you want out of the situation? I think I mentioned above some of the best readings for me have been ones that went against this, and surprised me by exposing my attachments/preconceptions, and offering a new perspective.
Does that help?

Incidentally, do you know anything about ruling lines? 2 and 5 are normally the ruling lines in Hexagrams, and are therefore auspicous. Reason being that they are in the centre of the constitent trigrams, are having just entered the situation and aren't about to pass out of it. Lots about this in the back of Wilhelm. Actually, 5 is the ruling line in this case of 14. Still good though.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:03 / 09.08.06
Cheers GH, you big hairy wrestler you. I'll check out Wilhelm for a more in-depth explanation of the ruling lines when I get home (my Big Brother-esque work filters are preventing me accessing that link).
 
 
illmatic
11:13 / 09.08.06
But they let you on Barbelith? They've really fucked up there, haven't they?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:16 / 09.08.06
Stroke of luck innit? I dread the day they finally catch on (as they did with the rpg board I used to haunt).
 
 
grant
17:10 / 25.08.06
Is anyone here familiar with Freeman Crouch's The Chameleon Book? That link goes to a pdf sample of Crouch's translation, including a couple appendixes on how and why he thought he'd try his hand.

I found it because I was reading up on the Mawangdui Silk Texts, which include the oldest known copy of the Yijing, which is kind of widely considered to be *strange* -- some of the hexagrams have radically different names, some of the verses are all screwy and they're in a different order.

What I find remarkable is this bit from Crouch's appendix:

One of the things that motivated me in this was seeing that very few Yijings, including verse translations, tried very hard to closely follow the poetics of the Yijing. I was absolutely floored when I read Kunst's dissertation.

It has the Mawangdui source text, a word by word transliteration with the rhyming words marked, and a cautious free translation. I nearly wept when I realized:
The I Ching rhymes. It's a bunch of little songs. My whole vision of this book was turning inside out.

While I could not preserve the rhyme scheme, there were things I could preserve that translations usually failed to address, and others, such as puns and
double entendres that I could at least point out in some cases.



Wow. That's pretty cool.

Anyone know more?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
20:06 / 25.08.06
Wow, that's fascinating grant, thanks for that. Must investigate, never heard of this before.

Songs, you say? Mmmmmmmm. I gots to learn me those!
 
 
illmatic
18:49 / 26.08.06
Hey Grant

Bit of a hit and run post - tired - but Richard Rutt's translation of the Zhou Yi (see Biroco's site for reviews) acknowledges this and actually attempts to reproduce the rhyme scheme in places. It's an excellent book actually, I don't use it much for divination, but the historical material is fascinating. The translation itself is quite eye-opening, the Yi stripped of Taoism almost, the texts refering to the sacrifice of captives and the other concerns of small warring feudal kingdoms. It's now availalbe in paperback, BTW. Can give a bit more detail if you want.
 
 
grant
00:59 / 27.08.06
Yes, please!
 
 
illmatic
14:22 / 28.08.06
Well, firstly, here’s Biroco’s review. Don’t know if I can say anything that he hasn’t. The book is in three parts, which for some reason, the way my brain works, I’m going to detail backwards.

The last section is a new translation of The Ten Wings, quite useful if you’ve looked at Wilhelm’s version, which is very mixed up and confusing (every comment split up under the individual hexagrams). Rutt adds some introductory comments to each. I haven’t read this section fully but I found some of his comments interesting – he states that by the time the Wings were written and compiled (Late Han?) the I Ching’s original purpose had been lost, and that these writings are the attempts of scholars to understand it. Much as is still being done now!

Section 2 is the actual translation itself. Each hexagram is re-produced and re-translated, drawing on the works of Alfred Waley, Richard Kunst, Edward Shaughnessy, Gao Heng and several others. You end up with some very odd glosses, which are fascinating in themselves – to take one at random, Hexagram 16, Enthusiasm becomes Elephant! - but he explains exactly how and why he’s made the choices he has, and one could follow his scholarship if you chose. He is basically retranslating the original layers of the Hexagram so the Image from Wilhelm’s text is excluded (being one of the 10 Wings) – it’s just the Zhou Yi itself, the Judgements and the Lines. As I understand it he’s representing something close to the “original form” (I’m aware of what a chimera that phrase is but bear with me) – it becomes a Bronze Age document, originating in the divination rites of tribal kings, combined with folk sayings, texts written after tortise shell divination etc. It's this section that he's made attempts to reproduce the rhyme structure of the original text.

I found the first section of most use. It's a compilation of a mass of material brought together into 6 chapters, looking variously at the history of the book (including European translations), material on the structure of Bronze Age China itself, and a huge amount of other material – symmetries in Hexgram order, early Zhou counting and numerals etc. It's pretty overwhelmeing in a way, but it gives you a sense of what can happen when a book has been around 3000 years. I particularly liked Rutt’s brief comment on his time in agrarian Korea (where he was first exposed to the book) and the links he made between this society and the distant times of the Zhou Yi.

Overall, this isn’t really a book to pick up, whiz through and easily digest, or one to supplement divination, but if you really want to further your studies of the Yi, it’s well worth getting. Essential even. It’s now out in paperback.
 
 
rosie x
17:24 / 28.08.06
Wow guys…fascinating stuff. I’m still getting my head around the standard Wilhelm translation. I’ve always been fascinated, but have only been studying the I Ching since the beginning of the year. It would be nice to come back to some of the more recent and innovative translations after I feel I have a bit more familiarity with the text, it’s components and interpretation.

For those of you with more expertise in the matter…how would you rate Crowley as a scholar? I was really impressed by the some of the sections The Book of Thoth especially the chapter on the Court Cards, in which Crowley provided corresponding hexagrams for them based on their elemental attributions.

Take for example the Queen of Wands, the watery part of Fire, representing the fluidity of that element and it’s colour. The 17th hexagram, Sui, is given as the card’s correspondent, and is comprised of the trigrams Tui (Lake) and Chen (Thunder). The similarities between interpretations are really quite uncanny, not only for this particular card, but for all sixteen. Also if interest is Crowley’s visionary diagram of the Chinese Cosmos, which demonstrates even further connections between the I Ching and the Tree of Life.

However, it’s certainly possible to see correspondences where one wishes to. I’m sure that if I think about it long and hard enough, I can deduce plenty of esoteric connections between any number of apparently unrelated things. I suppose what I’d like is an I Ching scholar’s opinion on Crowley’s interpretation. Is this stuff genius, or merely speculation?
 
 
illmatic
19:16 / 28.08.06
It would be nice to come back to some of the more recent and innovative translations after I feel I have a bit more familiarity with the text, it’s components and interpretation.

I think the I Ching is kind of bottomless in this sense, there is so much stuff to assimilate. Best way through is perhaps to find a way which works for you, I guess.

I suppose what I’d like is an I Ching scholar’s opinion on Crowley’s interpretation. Is this stuff genius, or merely speculation?

You might be interested in the fifth issue of Thelemic journal Red Flame – “Yi King: A Beastly Book of Changes”, which is a compilation of Crowley’s work and notes on the subject. I have this copy if you fancy a look. Once again all I do is link to Biroco reviews ...oh to have some original thoughts of my own….*sigh*

Review here

Anyway, attempting that ... firstly, I’d say that Crowley deserves a degree of respect for being one of the first – if not the first – Westerner to engage with Eastern esoteric ideas, as a student of their mysteries, rather than as a Xtian biased scholarly dismisser. His understanding of the Tao crop up a lot in his writings, and he divined with the Yi throughout his life.

However, as noted on here in discussions of his yoga, things have moved on since he wrote his work. A lot more work has been done since with regards to the I Ching, which Crowly was unaware of. He seems to have slipped passed Wilhelm's translation, for instance - though it was available in German from 1923, it wasn't available in Enlgih unti after his death.

Crowley produced his own version of the text, but he didn’t translate from the original Chinese. He mostly relied on James Legge’s translation for his own “Yi King”, as this was the only one available in English at the time. He was very critical of Legge though, Legge being something of a Victorian prig. Apparently, Crowley’s re-inscribes his name as Wood N Legge in his own edition!

Crowley rewoked Legge’s translation, and incorporated an elemental system he derived from the Qabalah, mapping the four elements and Phallus/Ktesis and Sun/Moon onto the eight trigrams. He then reworks the judgement texts, according to Legge’s work, plus his own understandings (I assume some of this understanding was derived from divination, something Legge never lowered himself to). Incidentally, Crowley also makes the texts rhyme. From reading Red Flame, it’s clear that Crowley “put in the hours” here, and was seriously committed to the study and use of the Yi as part of his magick. However, he did suborn it to his own system/synthesis, rather than valuing and understanding it on it’s own terms. One can’t really blame him here - this would be an impossible task short of going to China as Wilhlem did, there being virtually no materials available in the West at the time.

I think here Crowley was going for the grand “Rosetta Stone” vision of magick, with all things meditated through the Tree of Life, as shown in his 777. While it was pretty revolutionary in the first part of the 20th Century, I don’t think this works, as it misses all the fine points of cultural difference that don’t fit into this map.

I don’t think a Yi scholar would dismiss it out of hand, but it doesn’t really have a lot to do with the insights of modern scholarship. For instance, it’s now known that the trigrams are a later invention, and that early versions of the text didn’t use them at all. As Crowley’s version rests on trigrams + Western magical symbolism, I think the divergence is obvious. I’d see Crowley’s work here as more his own fascinating synthesis, part of his life’s work. I wouldn’t dismiss it, and if I were more into his tarot perhaps I’d even use it myself - but it’s more a product of his extraordinary creativity, than something to “true” to the source text.
 
 
rosie x
14:03 / 29.08.06
Wow Pegs...fascinating. Many thanks! x
 
 
grant
14:54 / 29.08.06
Alfred Waley, Richard Kunst, Edward Shaughnessy, Gao Heng

Waley I know, Kunst I just referenced (the rhymer), and Shaughnessy is the scholar who translated the Mawangdui texts. Who's Gao Heng?

I'm inclined, based only on what I've read of Crowley and what you just wrote up there, to dismiss his work as an attempt to cram the book into a Western occult frame. Cram a translation of the book into a frame. I don't think it can really be understood in translation, except as a translation, if that makes sense. There's enough going on with the language that one has to understand that language is an issue.
 
 
illmatic
17:07 / 29.08.06
Gao Heng was an early "modern school" scholar, He was writing and teaching on the Zhouyi in the 1930s and published Zhouyi Guijing Tongsho "Modern annotations to the ancient classic Zhouyi" which, according to Rutt, is the only Chinese commentary on the whole text and "draws on paleography, philogy and ancient literature for glosses on every phrase". Greg Whicup makes use of his work. No idea if this is availble in English or not. I doubt it, actually.

Just a note of correction to what I wrote above. One might think from what I wrote that the trigrams have no place in Chinese/Taoist magick, and people popularly subscribes to "modernist" ideas, which would of course be total rubbish. The trigrams have played a huge role in Asian cultural symbolism, in Taoist Alchemy, martial arts and so on. They have their own meanings in these cultures, meanings Crowley wasn't privy to. What I was trying to get at was that there's a big gap between Crowley's interpretations and modern scholarship.

I agree with what you say pretty much Grant, though perhaps a big part of the I Ching's history is it's continous re-interpretation through different cultural lenses even in China? People are always trying to new ways of understanding the book, it seems to me.

BTW Grant, have you read Helmut Wilhelm's stuff? This thread is inspiring me to dig it out again.
 
 
grant
02:53 / 30.08.06
No, I haven't, but I get the feeling I will....
 
 
Gendudehashadenough
20:42 / 17.09.06
I was walking down a pier today and as I was leaving, the boards that composed the walking surface of the pier gave me an idea for some on the fly divination. While walking at a normal pace I started to take notice of every time I passed a manmade crease in the ground and counting it as broken or continuous. After passing the sixth crack I realized I had hexagram. It would certainly take a thorough knowledge of the IChing to recogize specific hexagrams, but if nothing else I think I'll start carry a notepad around.

Might be cool to plan to take divinations along various routes/paths that cities have to offer, then compare the tri/hex to the area in which is was taken. Anyone every use something like this?
 
 
Princess
22:40 / 17.09.06
That idea really caught me, shit, you've set me off writing poetry now. Thanks. I liked it.
 
 
iamus
11:42 / 18.09.06
I'm sure that Quantum or Illmatic or somebody posted a link to Cherry Blossom Divination before, which is basically this. I can't remember where it is, and a quick google doesn't turn it up, but it might be worth a look for you.
 
 
illmatic
13:02 / 25.09.06
It's Plum Blossom Divination, guys. Lillian Too has a book out about it at the moment. Doesn't look that great though. A better source of information but harder to find would be Tsung Hwa Jou's Tao of I Ching.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:07 / 28.09.06
Hey Lithers,

I've been working on calendars, daylight, the I-ching and their relative rhythms of light and darkness.

Here's an image I've got for now.


i-ching mandala

or here for the blog article
blog article

any thoughts?
ta
 
 
grant
18:29 / 28.09.06
Damn, I can't think of where I read this, but I've seen a couple things on how to create the taijitu (yin-yang symbol) using a simple sundial. I can't remember what was being measured, even, just that it was a natural cyclic phenomenon.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
19:25 / 28.09.06
thanks grant,

hadn't heard that about the yin-Yang symbol. I read Joseph Campbell's "Oriental Mythology" recently, and he describes the construction using circles.

as far as calendars go, the I-Ching, apparently, corresponds to lunar, solar, and precessional periods. The natural observable periods vary slightly from the numbers below.

64 x 6 = 384 days = 13 lunations
384 days x 64 = 6 Sunspot Cycles (~11 years each)
x 6 = 2 zodiacal ages
x 64 = Precession of the Equinoxes (about 25, 848 years)

Sunspot Cycle 24 began towards the end of August. The New Moon was on August 23rd, so I've used that as an arbitrary date to begin a count of 64-day periods, as well as lunations and years.

in a few thousand years, we should know how well it works.

ta
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:47 / 25.10.06
Hey grant,

I found this explanation of the taijitu.

ta
 
 
grant
18:37 / 25.10.06
One and the same. That's it.

When observing the cycle of the Sun, ancient Chinese simply used a pole about 8 feet long, posted at right angles to the ground and recorded positions of the shadow. Then they found the length of a year is around 365.25 days. They even divided the year's cycle into 24 Segments, including the Vernal Equinox, Autumnal Equinox, Summer Solstice and Winter Solstice, using the sunrise and Dipper positions.

They used six concentric circles, marked the 24-Segment points, divided the circles into 24 sectors and recorded the length of shadow every day. The shortest shadow is found on the day of Summer Solstice. The longest shadow is found on the day of Winter Solstice. After connecting each lines and dimming Yin Part from Summer Solstice to Winter Solstice, the Sun chart looks like below. The ecliptic angle 23 26' 19'' of the Earth can be seen in this chart.


 
 
grant
15:58 / 19.03.07
Here's something odd I just stumbled across -- a near-forgotten board game named liubo that seems to be related to I Ching divination.

"Liu bo" means "six sticks" -- players would apparently toss sticks, which were made with "yin" and "yang" sides, using them something like dice, and totaling the score the same way you'd total 2s and 3s while casting hexagrams.

The link goes to a theoretical reconstruction of the game's rules. It appears to have been popular at the time of Confucius, but died out when something similar to backgammon was introduced from Persia in the 600s.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:29 / 28.05.07
Bump.

I started doing more divination about six months ago, and worked with my old tarot cards a bit until Persephone (who is no longer around B) reminded me of how the Yi Jing can really give advice, rather than lay out the situation without advising much, as my tarot readings for myself are wont to do. I got myself a copy of the Wilhelm/Baynes translation, and I was off! It's meant the start of regular divination practice, which also work as meditation practice, and the start of a serious interest in Yi Jing philosophy.

My father, who used to use it often, used to tell me that the best way to consult was to ask if one particular course of action was correct. So mostly I've asked about specific courses of action, and sometimes done a couple of readings for each possibility.

A lot of the readings I've done have been spot on: it's like the coins know. I'm going to lay out a reading I got, because it was amazing. I broke up with my partner recently and was considering the options on moving house. The options were, 1. finding a new rental with some friends (in a hostile, competitive and crazy expensive rental market); 2. moving elsewhere for 4 months until my ex moves overseas, and moving back into our house after she leaves; and 3. staying put, and working out an amicable, workable way to live with my ex until she goes overseas. For Option 1, I received Chien, Obstruction, moving to Ming I, Darkening of the Light. It said I had unfinished business which would harm my opportunities. Sure enough, I looked at my credit rating and realised I have a small debt cited on it, which isn't serious but would make it impossible to sign a new lease. No real chance of progress there. Option 2 came up as Tun, Retreat, followed by Lü, The Wanderer. Okay; a retreat from the situation with my partner, and lots of wandering, being at the mercy of other people, being humble. (Share house interviews!) Option 3 came up with no moving lines: it was Hêng, Duration. Staying put, seeing a situation through, some things changing while other things stayed the same. The same week, I got really sick, and she looked after me heaps while I was recovering. We agreed that I would stay. It's slightly weird, but we're family, and it makes sense for us. Also, I love my house, I've been living here for a long time. Duration is just where it's at. And my cat doesn't have to go through the trauma of moving somewhere for 3 months. I was hell-bent on the first option for a while, and this reading changed my mind entirely. It's working out well.

All the same, finding the right interpretation can be quite confusing. Especially with multiple moving lines! Apophenia, could you talk more about the method you use to figure out which line is the result? I'd be interested to know other people's methods too. I haven't tried to get through the Nan Jing Line method yet (my maths is hopeless) but I'll probably get there eventually.
 
  

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