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Prostitution - the ethics of the punter

  
  

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Ethan Hawke
18:12 / 23.09.02
From what I've read in this thread so far, I think no one has mentioned a top reason why "punters" (and incidentally, not being British, does this word have lower-class connotations?) are ashamed/don't discuss the paying for of sexual favors with their mates is the ever-present threat of disease. Prositutes, from street-walkers to high class escorts, are rightly or wrongly thought of as veritable cess-pits of nasty STDs by Joe Sixpack (as are probably all those who have "promiscuous sex," but that's a separate issue). If a "punter" brags about the intercourse he had with a prositute, that suddenly puts him in quite uncomfortable proximity to AIDS, herpes, syphillis, etc. in the minds of his friends. These friends talk amongst themselves and to the circle of people who would very likely make up the non-charging sexual prospects of the punter, making him less sexually marketable because of his association with disease.

Now, of course Mr. Punter (and the sex trade worker) may take all the appropriate precautions to avoid catching disease, but simpy because of the association of promiscuous sex and disease he's still greatly reduced his pool of prospects, should word get out.

I suppose all of this does in some way relate back to the "shame" of catching a sexual disease. And would be a great deal changed should sex work be legitimized. But as things stand right now, the association "prostitutes=disease" is still a very strong one in the mind of the general public, if I may be so bold as to guess what they think.

Incidentally, from what I hear from friends it's quite common for youngish broker/traders in Manhattan financial institutions to go receive "massage(s) with release" together. That's a minimum contact form of paying for sex, and thus is less stigmatized.
 
 
HCE
17:51 / 04.10.02
Does shame serve a useful function? Is any motivation to have sex good enough? Is having sex so important that any sex is better than none? Does separating the physical pleasure of sex with another person from emotional investment create a sort of schizophrenia? Is it possible to separate mind and body to the extent that a sex act devoid of such investment can be healthy? If the body is going to be dissociated into pieces and parts, is there no grounds for a hierarchy in which the hands are less intimate than the genitals, and therefore that toilet-washing is less invasive than intercourse? How is it possible for me to exchange money for invading the top of the biological intimacy hierarchy without this also meaning that I have used my (financial) power to enact such an invasion?

But then I'm about to sound like Andrea Dworkin, am I not.
 
 
HCE
15:05 / 05.10.02
Also, if I choose to consume fossil fuels, am I not voting with my dollars for pollution? If I choose to consume sex services, am I not voting with my dollars for the commodification of women's bodies? I am afraid that I cannot locate the exact quote, but I recall Karen Finley hoping, perhaps for her daughter, for "opportunities other than biological opportunities." Despite Lurid Archive's comment about the differing attitudes toward sex and drugs, there does seem to be a parallel being drawn in this thread between prostitution and drug use, with the consumption of sex services seen as a victimless activity, with the seedy element not inherent, and introduced only by outdated mores and wrongful criminalization. I would draw a parallel, rather, between it and the consumption of natural resources. I believe such resources should be enjoyed freely, not parceled for sale to those with sufficient wealth, which still means white males of privilege. How does the earlier suggestion of "fair trade sex" work? I don't think I understand what is meant by that.

I do not find the "what if they enjoy the work and freely choose to do it" argument convincing. Bob Flanagan may enjoy nailing his cock to a board, but that doesn't mean that it makes more sense to open cock-to-board-nailing brothels than to fund a cure for Cystic Fibrosis.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:56 / 06.10.02
Also, if I choose to consume fossil fuels, am I not voting with my dollars for pollution? If I choose to consume sex services, am I not voting with my dollars for the commodification of women's bodies?

But, as you mention without appearing to mention, there is a finitude of fossil resources, and a finite set of processes to pollute. Thus, there is a finite quantity of water on the Earth, and eventually, if pollution is caused by consumption of fossil fuels and purification requires energy created by the consumption of fossil fuels, you end up with no water or no fuel. And so on.

Theoretically, there is no such finitude of sexual congress. Assuming all other factors remain constant (bodies do not break, illness or exhaustion does not consume the flesh), any number of people can have sex with each other pretty much ceaselessly. Of course, in a Darwinian universe, those least likely to get sex in general will also get the least sex in this world.

Which is a fairly large hitch in your thesis. If you make the world's natural resources available for all, you must at the same time presumably abolish all forms of monetary exchange, or at least any exchange system that will give those white males of privilege a newton of leverage. Which is a perfectly good stand to take against against Capitalism, but it seems only tangentially to address the sex trade. All you essentially seem to be advancing is that "people should not have sex for the wrong reasons", which is to say reasons you do not agree with, such as financial exchange. Personally I do not believe people should indulge in shorthand typing for remuneration - it makes an ugly setting for a beautiful thing - but I respect the need of some shorthand typists to earn a crust selling their skills, since naughty old Capitalism insists that we exchange money for goods and services.

So, since Capitalism insists that we do such, one response is to dismantle Capitalism. Well and groovy. But, assuming Capitalism remains undismantled, what specifically is wrong with the sex trade that makes it so much more poisonous than any other means of amassing capital? The abusive bosses? The poor tips? The unfriendly customers? The question of whether one can separate sex trade work from sordor is an intersting one (some would suggest that, at least in some cases, the sordor is a draw rather than a disadvantage), and whether in turn one *can* institutionalise a form of sex trade work in which remuneration is fairly distributed, working conditions are guaranteed, strict safety rules are enforced and adhered to...much as "fair trade" coffee purchasers are paying a premium for the knowledge that the people who are working to produce their coffee are receiving a better wage than those working for profit-led coffee producers who strive to keep wages as low as possible.

If enough people buy fair trade coffee, or environmentally friendly washing-up liquid, or organic, locally-produced vegetables, the market responds to this need. Likewise, short of a punters' revolt that deposes the Romanovs, there is a question over whether "punter power" could be used to establish better working conditions for sex trade workers.

And what on Earth your final paragraph is supposed to express I have no idea. Did Bob Flanagan ever open a chain of cock-to-board-nailing brothels? Was he, for that matter, ever presented as the poster child for Cystic Fibrosis treatment. Are you, rather, revealing that you find the idea of sex trade work as grotesque and unpleasant as you find Bob Flanagan's extreme response to Cystic Fibrosis? Becasue if you are just trying to say "whores are nasty", there are ways to do it without roping in a celebrity endorsement, as I observed over lunch to Patrick Caulfield only the other day.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:36 / 06.10.02
I second all that, Haus. But just to clarify a couple of points.

I think that most of us on this thread are accepting the drugs and prostitution analogy partly because much of the harm caused is due to prohibition. Moreover, I think that prostitution is a victimless crime when conducted between consenting parties. This last point may be contentious, but surely no more so than with drugs?

So, when I pointed to differing attitudes toward sex and drugs I meant it as a difference in perception that belies the similarities and is in fact harmful. This much was probably clear. The counter to that is

If I choose to consume sex services, am I not voting with my dollars for the commodification of women's bodies? - Fred

To which I would cautiously agree. But if the implication is that sex trade workers should be criminalised for their own "good" and against their wishes, then we are on tricky ground. In short, and reiterating the point that has been made many times, consent is key.

Also, Haus is absolutely right in pointing out that an analogy between prostitution and consumption of fossil fuels is flawed. I suppose one might use a finitude of sexual morality to make the required link. But I find that pretty unconvincing.

Finally, we come to Bob Flanagan. I don't know very much about him, though I have watched the documentary. Like Haus, I don't understand what point Fred is making.

I thought the Bob Flanagan documentary was a moving piece about someone defiantly facing their illness and embracing their sexuality. It was at turns funny and upsetting. I even shed the odd tear. But it had nothing to do with prostitution and made no claim to be a health advisory film. I thought it was touching rather than sordid.

The only parallel one might draw is between prohibition of sex trade work and the prosecution of those engaging in extreme consensual sadomasochistic acts. The Spanner case comes to mind. In that arena, I see the Bob Flanagan documentary as a powerful argument for freedom.
 
 
HCE
03:31 / 07.10.02
But, as you mention without appearing to mention, there is a finitude of fossil resources, and a finite set of processes to pollute.

Insofar as you view women as interchangible, perhaps. I was thinking of women as individuals. Is there not, within the life of every individual, a finite quantity of... I fail here to think of an appropriate word... innocence, hope, faith... some thing which is destroyed? Is there no aspect of the sacred in sex? Is sex really nothing more to you than shorthand typing?

It seems you took my last paragraph for a sort of name-dropping. I thought it more appropriate to use a well-known example of a person who willingly suffers damage to the self (in the face of a perhaps greater pain) to illustrate my point that there is a difference between understanding somebody's motivations for taking an action and promoting such actions for all. I apologize if my remark was in some way inappropriate: I am new here and am still coming to understand the etiquette.

Please allow me to clarify that I agree with previous posters who think that prostitution should be legalized for the benefit of all. I think that would be making the best of a bad situation.
 
 
Fist of Fun
08:18 / 07.10.02
OK - I am a technical failure. I cannot find the sexworkers thread, so I may as well post here (undoubtedly incorrectly and very probably with everybody already knowing this) that in July this year a club called Majingos in London's dockland started recognising the GMB Union (General and Municipal Boilerworkers would you believe it) for the dancers.

Apparently the manager is very keen on unions and has had Equity (the UK actors' union) representing girls in clubs he's worked in before.
 
 
Fist of Fun
08:27 / 07.10.02
Now for an on-post message. Why is the use of a sex worker seen as 'bad/morally wrong/shameful/etc...' in society? Because it is.

That isn't a facaetious statement - it's meant as a genuine explanation. There have been societies where prostitution and use thereof have been perfectly acceptable; e.g. temple prostitutes in ancient Greece (unless Tom now informs me that this was just a figment of my bored and testosterone driven imagination during Classical Studies lessons aged 14). A more recent example would be Victorian England. Clearly prostitution was unacceptable, but to a large part of society use of a female prostitute by a man was considered perfectly reasonable if not something one generally discussed in mixed company. "Urges, donchaknow". Never any suggestion that this was un-macho - quite the opposite.

Sexually transmitted diseases were a problem then, but not in the sixties and seventies when everything (people thought) could be cured or at least dealt with.

Judeo-Christian morality as a base for criticising it? Yes, undoubtedly, but to my mind that usually doesn't survive on its own for too long if there are contrary pressures, which with the sex trade there clearly are.

Overall, I suspect that prostitution / use of prostitutes is considered 'bad' in today's western society primarily because it is so considered. If everybody just stopped and thought about it I suspect that a small minority would disagree with it because of:
(i) The effect of street walking on their local areas;
(ii) Religious based morality.
The rest would probably think "Nothing to do with me what other people do in the privacy of their own rooms, and I cannot see any objective reason that this is wrong."

Then again, I suspect that is the answer to racism / homophobia / fear of the Euro / why people actually claim to enjoy "A question of sport".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:02 / 07.10.02
Insofar as you view women as interchangible, perhaps. I was thinking of women as individuals. Is there not, within the life of every individual, a finite quantity of... I fail here to think of an appropriate word... innocence, hope, faith... some thing which is destroyed? Is there no aspect of the sacred in sex? Is sex really nothing more to you than shorthand typing?

Actually, at the moment you are thinking of women as victims, as delicate flowers and as helpless victims of male sexual desire.

Two things. First, when did all sex trade workers become women? Male sex trade workers are out there too. Are they possessed of more innocence, hope and faith than women, or better equipped to husband their supplies?

Second up, how *dare* you denigrate shorthand typing? A lot of people, male and female, find themselves in jobs where they have to perform shorthand typing day in, day out, in order to make a living wage. After a while, the joy of just shorthand typing for the hell of it is maybe diminished. Perhaps that is the price we pay.

To put it another way, there are many problems the sex trade worker may have to face. Violent customers, exploitative bosses, a hostile public, greater exposure to situations that may lead to chemical dependencies, greater possible exposure to situations in which STDs may be contracted, and so on and so forth. Some of these are context-specific, some of them are person-specific, and they can be removed or minimised in various ways.

One thing we have yet to discuss is whether it is the act of sex trade work, rather than the conditions of much sex trade work, that are brutalising and/or damaging to the "sacredness" of sex. Now, in a perfect world we would have something better to go on than "is there not something sacred about sex"? Yo, there's something sacred about Holy Communion, and priests give out those wafers on a daily basis without losing their faith or their innocence (well, except the ones who double it up with sex trade work after evensong, anyway).

Now, it srikes me that our Ms. Tricks may be a good person to ask about this sort of thing. As a sex trade worker, she seems to have set up a modus operandi that minimises or removes many of the problems above - if there is such a thing as the "professional" sex trade worker (in the sense of a member of the professions), whose sex work is regimented, comfortable and removed from the popular image of the brutalised, heroin-addicted prostitute living in squalor, she seems to be prety close to it. Also, I presume she knows other sex trade workers, and has some broader context to this question. Also also, I seem to recall that she has observed that she likes sex, is good at it, and as such finds her job both rewarding and remunerative.

So, question: do you find that your work abrades your innocence, faith, and hope? And if so, how?

Fred, if you could give us a better idea of how you envisage innocence, faith and hope being destroyed by the sex act itself, or the conditions surrounding it, that might be very helpful.

Fist - so, the shame reaction is atavistic? That's interesting, because it seems, drawn very roughly, to be the opposite of Fred's thesis (that if people knew better, there would be no sex trade) - that if people knew better, the sex trade would be a simple and uncomplicated fact - it would exist in the same way as the milk trade or, indeed, the pool of shorthand typing skills. Yes?

For reference, the sex workers' conditions thread is here.
 
 
Papess
14:31 / 07.10.02
Haus wrote:
One thing we have yet to discuss is whether it is the act of sex trade work, rather than the conditions of much sex trade work, that are brutalising and/or damaging to the "sacredness" of sex

So, question: do you find that your work abrades your innocence, faith, and hope? And if so, how?


Is this thing on? ...tap, tap, tap

I certainly believe there is something very sacred about sex. Not to stray too much from the topic and into the Magick here, but I believe the sex act echoes the Divine Creation. Monetary exchanges aside, engaging in sex can be a religious experience especially, if one or both partners are educated in the sexual arts.

Here is where I think that a proper education in prostitution would be of benefit to everyone concerned. Yes, I am suggesting that prostitutes be educated in perhaps a College of Prostitution. This way, only those with this training can practice prostitution legally and is also an expert in the field, (just like a doctor cannot practice medicine without a degree and a license). This crosses over to the other thread a bit so I will try to keep this concept related to the client as much as possible. (Some might argue that this would create a class issue amongst prostitutes but, that is another debate.)

An educated prostitute can provide a religious service if it is required. These, at one time, were services of some Priestess. (Maybe I am romanticizing a bit; I have nothing to conclusively support this opinion). Often this is referred to as Tantra (although that certainly involves a lot more than the act of sex) or Sex Magick. If a client procures these services, it may actually help to enlighten and create hope and faith. As for innocence, I believe that is a myth in any adult in subjective reality. If what is meant by innocence is wonderment, well, could the opening of the chakras, circulating of chi, achieving gnosis, recognizing the divine principles in your partner, yourself and in the act itself, possibly create a sense of wonder or awe, thus, evoking one’s true innocence (in an ultimate sense)?

Now, many tithe their earnings for their religious affiliations without ever feeling guilty about whether they are paying for “God’s Love”. I wonder, is it just the taboo of the act of sex that makes the gen. public uneasy?

This is my theory:

1. Puritan attitudes towards sex in a Judeo-Christian society cause the guilt associated with paying for sex. We all seem to be aware of this so, it is a long shot, but if those attitudes change, so does the view on prostitution. Since Jewish and Christian thought is based on patriarchal dominion maybe this is the missing ingredient for a guilt-free society, at least in regards to sex itself. Making the absent Goddess present or even the recognition that we are all inherently divine beings and not subordinate to some slack-jawed, angst-ridden, All-Father! (Oops, a little rage there!).

This brings me to my next point.

2. Our governments, whether we like it or not, are based upon the Judeo-Christian moral structure. As I said, these are very patriarchal and seek to control the feminine. My point being, this is an issue of control over women’s bodies! It is the laws themselves that cause the very conditions of degradation to the prostitute and the punter. Not forgetting, of course, that there are men who are sex workers, but let’s face it, if a man gets paid for sex from a privileged, white woman, society gives him a high-five. If we are talking about a gay prostitute that is a whole other puritanical issue combined with the issue of prostitution!

The rest of that debate should be in the other thread, however.

Now, as far as women (or sex partners) being interchangeable, I believe this is entirely true from a Divine perspective. (I think “The Last Temptation of Christ” makes this observation. Please, no slagging me for what quite possibly could be considered an inferior reference! *ducks*) Let’s not confuse sex and love…pleeease! It is fine to bond with another human being on all levels but that is not necessary for the services of prostitution. If we are talking about Sacred Prostitution then that bonding takes on a different form, a very impersonal one or a very supra-personal form. Communing with the divine requires the relinquishing of the ego therefore, the individual is not important on a macrocosmic level. In the mundane microcosm, daily world, the ego flourishes and demands certain comforts such as: particular characteristics in our partners and certain negotiated commitments. Really, that type of neediness from our ego is exactly what we learn to overcome in Tantra. Interchangeable? Exactly!

If all the principles of Sacred Prostitution were met, even the client’s committed relationship would flourish. The client could take the knowledge gained from the educated prostitute and use it to enhance sex with chosen partner. Now, there may be an attitude adjustment necessary in the chosen partner’s ego, but jealousy is such an ugly emotion. Hey, isn’t that one of the 7 Deadly sins? …AHA!,But of course there is always the second commandment (or is it the first?) “For I am a jealous God, thou shalt have no other gods before me!” Damn, who wrote that inconsistent crap and called it holy?! I suppose jealousy is considered to be okay if you are God or married, but I digress.

To make a conclusive statement: an educated prostitute can perform prostitution in a sacred manner, the emphasis here on the education. This can only happen, however, if society’s attitudes towards what is holy and divine adjust themselves to the Divine Feminine and ultimately, the true genderless nature of divinity.

I have really, barely begun to explore this.

PS: Thank you for your kind words on my business ethics, Haus. I certainly hope I have argued my POV adequately.


~May Tricks
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:38 / 07.10.02
Crikey. Thank you, May; that actually not only fills in some gaps, but turns the whole thing on its head. At this point, we are looking at an entirely inverse view of sex trade work, where the participants, far from abrading the natural resource of "sexual sacredness", are in fact participating in a sacramental process.

Which certainly suggests that sex, and what happens with sex, tend to inhere in the eye of the beholder, and in *that* case we are back to how to make the process as pleasant and comfortable as possible logistically for worker and customer. The idea of a qualification system is a *very* interesting one...because at that point we *are* talking about a professional qualification, in effect....
 
 
Papess
15:08 / 08.10.02
Fred stated:
I would draw a parallel, rather, between it (prostitution) and the consumption of natural resources.

I know there has been much comment on this statement, but I would like to respond to it. I have thought about the relationship between the Earth and women's bodies a whole lot in this life. I came to the conclusion, that if we draw a parallel between them, maybe the Earth more closely resembles the scene of a brutal rape.

To clarify:
At one time, (to follow the metaphor) perhaps the Earth did resemble the Virgin/Whore to mankind, boasting hir endowments, inveigling with abundances and sensual delights. So, men took from hir, bought and sold hir, thus, making hir their whore and themsleves in effect, punters and pimps, but also rapists.

To my personal knowledge, unlike an adult, self-conscious, sex worker, the Earth never agreed to any of this. (Hey, I could be wrong. I still haven't managed to wrap my mind around my income tax, nevermind a planetary conciousness. I am working on it though.) This is why I think rape is a closer analogy of your metaphor than prostitution, Fred.

*prostitution does not equal rape*

I think it was pretty keen insight, regardless of your moralistic value judgements and stereotypical gender bias, which seemed to be inferred within it.

MT
 
 
HCE
17:08 / 08.10.02
There is no need to rally around a "Defend the Prostitues From Fred" flag as I honestly have nothing against people making a living. I merely wish there a more pleasant way of doing so.

Permit me to clarify: I do not support laws that are punitive toward prostitutes. I quite agree that unions, legalization, and some degree of regulation would remove much of the trauma surrounding prostitution, though perhaps it is not as traumatic as Iceberg Slim novels might have led me to believe. But I don't believe that the only trauma comes from such laws. And I don't think women are frail, but I do think it is possible to be injured even when strong. I would need some sort of research to be cited in order for me to be convinced that all or even most prostitution, whether male or female (and yes, I think men as well as women are possessed of innocence and frailty) is an affirming sort of performance art. I'm afraid that I don't know enough about any of the major world religions to comment on what a religious morality might reflect.

To answer the question about what kind of damage it is that I think people sustain: I'm not really sure, but I think about the lives of people that I know, and it seems that money taints everything. I have no objection to an artist selling her paintings and turning a profit. But I think of the people, and there are many more of these, who have to design ads for products they loathe, or design sterile sites for distant clients, and these people often describe themselves as brutalized. I don't really believe that male sexual desire is as powerful or satanic as it's made out to be, but I do think that money is even more corrosive than is commonly acknowledged.

Perhaps I should have warned you that I am devoid of anything that might be mistaken for a sense of humor, so the shorthand typing jokes rather go over my head.

The idea of certification in prostitution, perhaps involving some training in psychology, has great merit, but I think that would go in the sex workers thread.

*prostitution does not equal rape*

Yes, that's why I made the comment about Dworkin.

I don't see where I'm making moralistic value judgements here. If I have done so I assure you that it was unintentional, poor phrasing on my part.
 
 
HCE
02:31 / 13.10.02
Well, I have a little different perspective on things now. I am in Reno visiting a friend. Slot machines accost you as soon as you leave the plane. Nobody seemed excited by this. I found it depressing.

Prostitution is legal in Nevada, but there are no brothels (I am not sure what the most respectful term is, everybody I spoke to referred to them as whorehouses) in the larger cities. We drove out to Winnemucca to visit his family this weekend. It is a much smaller, more rural city than Reno. I expressed curiosity about the brothels and he drove me by a few, which looked like recently defunct Disneyland facades. He told me that one can go and simply get a beer there. I suggested that we do so, but he warned me that I would not get a pleasant reception.

At the first one which was empty of other customers, we were ignored for a few minutes before the male bartender asked us to leave. At the second one which had one man sitting at the end of the bar (he did not look up at us as we walked in), we were immediately told in a strident voice by the bartender (also male) to leave. I was assured by my friend that if I hadn't had a male escort with me I would have been treated even more poorly.

Without having seen any prostitutes, I can only assume from their working conditions that they are no more, or less, oppressed or brutalized than the employees of Wal-Mart or McDonald's. My only other experience of prostitution is seeing young men on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood, and young-to-middle aged women on Hollywood and Sunset Boulevards in Los Angeles.

All in all, nothing about any of these people made me feel desire of any sort. I wonder whether any of the other women here have utilized the services of prostitutes, and if so, what their experiences were?
 
 
Fist of Fun
10:15 / 13.10.02
Haus: Fist - so, the shame reaction is atavistic? That's interesting, because it seems, drawn very roughly, to be the opposite of Fred's thesis (that if people knew better, there would be no sex trade) - that if people knew better, the sex trade would be a simple and uncomplicated fact - it would exist in the same way as the milk trade or, indeed, the pool of shorthand typing skills. Yes?

Basically, yes. More specifically, if people thought better then they would view the sex trade as about as morally repugnant as, say, the film trade. Please note - by "thought better" I only mean started without preconceptions / assumptions, not the ability to make logical associations and the rest of the process. (And thanks for the link - why didn't everybody just call it the Naked Sushi thread!)

Fred - whilst we are all entitled to our views, and whilst I don't find anything offensive about yours, I have to say I find them a bit bizarre. I should say this is very probably for the same reasons I always find religious/spiritual statements bizarre - never seen it, don't know what you're talking about.

But I do think that if you start supporting/justifying prostitution on the basis of "the sacred prostitute" or "communing with the divine" then how do you claim that your theory has anything to commend it over the standard Judeo-Christian theory that prostitution is wrong? Both their validities are fundamentally based on religious concepts, and I think if history has shown us anything it is that you cannot show any logical reason to take one religion over another.
 
 
Papess
21:05 / 13.10.02
Fist wrote:
But I do think that if you start supporting/justifying prostitution on the basis of "the sacred prostitute" or "communing with the divine" then how do you claim that your theory has anything to commend it over the standard Judeo-Christian theory that prostitution is wrong? Both their validities are fundamentally based on religious concepts, and I think if history has shown us anything it is that you cannot show any logical reason to take one religion over another.

I certainly do not take the stand that Judeo-Christian moral standards are wrong or right, but it seems to me the government has decided that it is the "right way" for everyone by imposing laws based upon that model. I was suggesting that maybe those standards need to be amended to include other ideologies.

May
 
 
HCE
17:20 / 14.10.02
Is it impossible to have a sense of the sacred without religion? I am an atheist and yet I'm very comfortable using that word to describe things, people, and relationships. Would sacrosanct be a better choice? Have any of the women here paid for sex? Have the people who have used these services done it out of a desire for a particular prostitute, out of desire for paid sex, or just out of a nonspecific desire for sex with another person? I am trying to understand the variety.
 
 
alas
20:42 / 14.10.02
I love to get therapeutic massages. I go strictly for pleasure. I pay well for the experience. I get to lie naked in clean white sheets in a quiet room with soft music. Then a woman who has been carefully trained and is deeply experienced with bodies touches and rubs my naked body and my brain blooms inside my skull. Meanwhile, I go deep inside myself, and re-create my self at a deep level.

If we pushed this experience further, and she was allowed to massage my breasts, my clitoris, the inside of my cunt, why would that be so wrong? I've had the thought almost every time I've been on the massage table. I love my massage therapists. They touch me in ways that no one else does. Their attention helps me to love myself and pay attention to my body in a way that no other act does. (And it doesn't matter but I'm in a good long term relationship; this is different, it works differently because it is a paid relationship with clear boundaries.)

When I think of the possibilities of really knowing our bodies in a deep, yes sacred way, that are lost because we have arbitrary rules about what counts as viable employment, I'm very sad that prostitution is illegal. When I know that prostitutes are routinely brutalized for "selling themselves"--in ways that I am not likely to face for "selling myself" on, say, the academic job market--I'm deeply angry.

May Tricks--fabulous writing! Thanks!
alas is back!
 
 
HCE
23:27 / 24.10.02
Reading something that's a bit closer to what I meant by the sacred aspect of sex:

"Infinite jouissance for each person at the intersection of happiness for all... is it anything else but the sacred?

This sacred isn't the stability of religion nor the institution that inhibits it to some degree or other, but something that cuts across all that and allows our most imperative bodily needs to access symbolic representations that could be shared and that are sometimes sublime. This transition from body to meaning, from the most intimate to the most binding happens via sexual desire."

(ellipsis the author's) J. Kristeva, Revolt She Said

For me, personally, and I am not prescribing this for other people but am strictly putting in my two cents about prostitution if I were to be the punter: I don't want money politics to enter my sexual relationships if I can help it. I don't think an ambient desire for sex is a good enough reason to take part in this activity.
 
 
_Boboss
20:00 / 04.03.10
I also own the trade.
 
 
Haus Of Pain
07:36 / 05.03.10
Weird tacit assmption, here, that we all agree that it's "trashy of the girl".
 
 
Haus Of Pain
10:23 / 05.03.10
...well, I'd get hard for you like no other guy"

That kind of thing?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
14:28 / 05.03.10
As do I
 
 
haus of fraser
14:38 / 05.03.10
And for the record, Runce and I have totally different taste in women.
 
 
haus of fraser
14:43 / 05.03.10
And yes, they are far too young. Could you imagine...?
 
 
Haus Of Pain
13:11 / 12.03.10
Unless someone wants to flesh this thread out - and I don't - I'm going to move for a deletion.
 
 
Peach Pie
15:36 / 19.04.10

I have a gut reflex reaction of revulsion about everything to do with the sex trade but am ashamed of it. There's a good running route I don't like to use because men use it to pick up prostitutes there. The whole idea of men approaching you and doing one of the most intimate acts imaginable just because you're in the wrong place at the wrong time I find really hard to take.

I also find the site of hardcore porn really depressing. Most women don't want to admit to that.
 
 
StarWhisper
00:01 / 29.04.10
hm.

I think if anyone is interested there is an ethnography of london prostitutes written recently by Sophie Day called On the Game. An excellent, suprising and award winning book.

I know a lot of people who like to fuck whores and a few working girls and a rent boy, well, generally speaking the johns vary but the whores are all quite mercenary. They are greedy and want a lot of money and they don't really care about what anyone thinks of it. I would say their concerns are more practical than ideological or emotional to a supprising degree. That said it can breed a bit of a destructive lifestyle due to the ease of aquiring large ammounts of money.

The johns are generally fairly successful because they would have to be to afford the slightly higher grade of woman, and sort of range from irritatingly guilty or lonely to fun and charismatc. I'd say it the reasons wy men pay for sex have mostly been elaborated above, except to say that often it's not just that they want to put their cock in something but that they genuinely like to be around women, rarely are around women who really enjoy sex and are confident and comfortable with it/their bodies, and that they just like the whole indulgent experience.

I'm going to go seek out the other theads of relevence on here and see what they say.
 
 
Papess
19:59 / 06.05.10
Boboss, why delete this thread?
 
 
Spaniel
22:31 / 18.07.10
It isn't me. It's an evil meme
 
 
Sublime Pathos
08:46 / 01.12.10
Chiming in here as someone who's worked as a male escort.

I support prostitution. I think it's a job no different than any other. Some people enjoy what they do for a living and some don't. People who pay for sex are just a customer and nothing else. There's no more power play in the situation than someone buying art, or paying for food at McDonalds. Sex can be a commodity as much as manual labor at a construction site, just because it's being made a commodity doesn't "cheapen" it. I had a lot of satisfaction in what I did, enjoyed doing it, and enjoyed being paid for it.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
12:33 / 03.12.10
there's a debate going on in Canada about prostitution/solicitation.

It's legal in Canada, however, it is illegal to solicit, own a bawdy house, negotiate prices, etc... which are the laws that are currently under review.

The argument is that although prostitution is legal, the necessary activities that go with it are not, which endangers the sex-trade workers, and all that.

The counter-arguments are usually knee-jerk reactions as opposed to facts-based.

As for the punter - there was a time when a John was caught breaking one of these laws (like negotiating a price) was sent to John school. Some kind of course to teach you why you are morally reprehensible or somesuch (sorry, never attended).

I think that if it's properly legalized, properly regulated (which may be asking too much, considering the state of other regulated industries) that it would make the sex-trade safer for the workers and the Johns - regular check ups, less chance of theft, extortion, human trafficking, gang involvement, etc...

Although the wheels of legislation move particularly slowly, I expect that we'll eventually make this legal, as well as other practices that were demonized during our country's more uptight periods of political will.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:20 / 27.12.10
squid;

You talk a good game, but it will never happen. It's foolish to think otherwise. Prositution, like cocaine, or whatever, will alwys be the same; fine if you can afford it, otherwise, not. Don't waste your time on the legal niceties.
 
 
Peach Pie
19:34 / 17.03.11

Having done volunteer work withg prostitutes (no - not like that), I found it an environment of unhappiness, STD's, under-education. 1/3 prostitutes in my area began their "career" aged 13 or under.

"A job like any other"?
 
 
T Blixius
03:31 / 03.04.15
Did everyone really leave this amazing thing for Facebook, twitter, snapchat, tinder and all the other absolute dross ?
 
  

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