BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Prostitution - the ethics of the punter

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
No star here laces
13:15 / 18.09.02
Browsing the 'sex workers' thread it's evident that there is a lot of unease and/or distaste at the thought of paying for sex.

The thread bristles with disclaimers of the "of course I don't know what goes through their dirty little minds" variety when discussing punters (although some are more t i c than others).

Why is this? Is paying someone for sex a brutal power play by an oligarchic tyrant? Is it just a bit embarassing to admit doing it, or wanting to do it? Why should it be?

And if we can assume that the prostitute is a willing participant who does the job because ze enjoys it, and not through desperation and drug addiction, how does this affect the punter's position?
 
 
No star here laces
13:15 / 18.09.02
And will anyone here admit to having paid for sex?
 
 
Tom Coates
13:28 / 18.09.02
I actually have very little to no objection to people paying for sex - providing that the people who are selling themselves for sex are doing so of their own free will and judgment and are completely comfortable with the idea. That may sound blunt, but although it's physically invasive, I don't see being paid for sex as being any more humilating than washing toilets for a living. IF the money's good, IF the person selling sex is comfortable, safe and happy with the idea, then I think there can be no ethical justification for declaring something to be wrong with the person with the cash...
 
 
Papess
14:17 / 18.09.02
Yeeech, cleaning toilets!

Tom, you couldn't pay me to do THAT!

Although, a few clients have paid me to clean my toilet!

~MT
 
 
Tom Coates
15:49 / 18.09.02
That's the point isn't it. Having your hands in someone's crap isn't particularly satisfying work and yet we don't frown on people for doing it. In that particualrly case, we'd probably pity them. Present me with someone making good money out of sex and someone making appalling money cleaning up crap, and I know which I'd think had the more demeaning and depressing life. That's not an excuse for exploitation where and when it's occurring, but if there legitimately isn't exploitation going on, then there seems little to protest about.
 
 
Papess
16:33 / 18.09.02
So are there any gentlemen here who can 'fess up to using the services of a prostitute, or is this even more taboo than actually being a prostitute, in the male mind?

~MT
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
20:52 / 18.09.02
>>>slowly raises hand while keeping one under the table...<<<

And the worst part it that it was May!

No,just kidding.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:31 / 18.09.02
In case the posts above are deleted for threadrot and earcocking, Rex admitted to having had sex with a sex worker, before adding that it was May Tricks, and May Tricks then commented that she did not believe he had paid her.

Which is in itself quite interesting.

Rex was clearly aiming for that punchline, but to what purpose? As a standard bait-and-switch, "twenty-eight years old, I was" gag, of course. But, wrenching ourselves bodily back to the topic, what's the message? It is supposed to satirise, presumably, the reluctance of "johns" to come forward (the slow raising of the hand), but at the same time names very specifically a sex trade worker that he did not pay. Because, you see, he is sufficiently attractive to *get it free*.

Whether this makes the sex trade worker a validating dispenser of benificence or a bonus ball (as it were) is ambiguous. It does, however, seem to suggest that sex as recompense for financial outlay, in this highly specific schema at least, is something not to be admitted to.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
23:01 / 18.09.02
Gee Haus,that was considerate of you to give a full recap of the previous two posts of threadrot just in case it is deleted by a moderator.

...he is sufficiently attractive to *get it free*.

Damn straight and thanks for the notice!

It is supposed to satirise, presumably, the reluctance of "johns" to come forward

Well yes. Here comes a comment...most men have paid for sexual pleasure in their lives.Be it a prostitute,stripper,massage,or even just a potential lay.

Damn im good looking!

Anyhoo Haus, sorry for the levity.I love you
 
 
Papess
23:24 / 18.09.02
Whether this makes the sex trade worker a validating dispenser of benificence or a bonus ball (as it were) is ambiguous. It does, however, seem to suggest that sex as recompense for financial outlay, in this highly specific schema at least, is something not to be admitted to.

Why not? If Sex Trade Workers are going to get the legalization and standardizing needed to legitimize the industry, we are going to have to speak out. Maybe, (to stay on topic) that would allow those who use this service to be a little more open about it. That could in turn be useful to a client so they know how to care for their own health and safety. Alot of clientelle could take a lesson or two in that and do what is best for them.

Really though, this has been going on for centuries. From Kings to paupers, all of them had their mistresses and concubines and whores. It is really very common but, in some cultures it is kept in closets. I wish I could say something to make those that have used these type of services feel more at ease and able to talk about their views. I really think that is in part what Rex was trying to do. Humour is good for that.

~MT
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
23:34 / 18.09.02
I would like to add that I have been employed in the sex industry for over 12 years now.The one thing I have noticed,since Haus brought it up, is the "Im-so-good-looking-I-get-it-for-free" mentality that infects most male minds.It is the fantasy of every massage client/john/lap to dance on to have the "worker" find them so attractive they need not pay for the act.
 
 
Papess
00:27 / 19.09.02
Soo, let me get this straight?

Men do not like to admit to these exchanges so they do not jeapordize their machismo, because as everyone knows, only ugly men and losers go to Prostitutes and Escorts...etc.???

Well now it all is making sense!

Please understand, there are some beautiful men and women who use these services. It is a shame that these (mostly) men who seek this entertainment are forced to hide it because of a fear that it makes them seem less attractive is a preposterous notion.

This implies that the only reason to opt for paying for sex is that you are too ugly to get laid. This is certainly not the only reason. Other reasons are: convienence, variety, specialty services, parties and erotic companionship. This is all very controlled emotionally so that kind of commitment is not necessary to get the service or attention he may require. My point being that there are different services as there are different clients. SOme of them are rich and some not-so-rich, some are young and some are old, some are ugly and others are good-looking. You see what I am getting at?

I personally look at the john's position as being one of control in his own sexual affairs. He can have what he desires and not fuck anybody up emotionally in the process, not even himself. I think there is something rather logical about that.

~MT
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:30 / 19.09.02
Why not? If Sex Trade Workers are going to get the legalization and standardizing needed to legitimize the industry, we are going to have to speak out. Maybe, (to stay on topic) that would allow those who use this service to be a little more open about it.

I think there's a double meaning here: legitimate, meaning not illegal, and legitimate, meaning socially legitimate, a legitimate way to spend an afternoon, say. Something to chat about with friends much as one might a game of squash or a poker session (as it were). Now, are the two corollaries? F'r example, is it the widespread acceptance socially of marijuana use that pushes the agenda on decriminalisation, or the increasing moves to decriminalise marijuana that render it progressively more socially acceptable? Or are the two movements parallel but not causally connected.

Rex: Yes. Very good. I can see there's more going on in that head than...well, than in my fridge, anyway. What does that tell us (by which I mean those who can be told)? Is it that the act would be redeemed somehow if it was taken out of the commercial arena at the last minute, that self-esteem would be restored even up to and beyond the moment of spuffing if the person was suddenly no longer rented pudenda but a lover, or at least a fan?
 
 
mixmage
00:48 / 19.09.02
pudendum [Latin, neuter gerundive of pudre, to make or be ashamed.]

doubly shameful for being rented?
 
 
Papess
00:49 / 19.09.02
Tannhauser wrote:
I think there's a double meaning here: legitimate, meaning not illegal, and legitimate, meaning socially legitimate, a legitimate way to spend an afternoon, say.

Quite frankly, any type of legitamacy in this country would do me fine. If you want to break it down into syllables, that is fine with me.

...and the two points would be by their definitions, intimatelty related.

~MT
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:18 / 19.09.02
Not necessarily. There is no legal prohibition against masturbation (as long as you don't put out somebody's eye), but rarely does a man sit down for lunch with his coworkers and sigh contentedly, "man, I had a wank to raise the dead last night! You finishing that semolina, Jake?"

Oh, and mixmage - it's pud*e*re. Long "e".
 
 
No star here laces
08:26 / 19.09.02
I was certainly shooting for the "too ugly to get laid" point when asking the original question

But funny also that ear-cocking should arise - my computer has no period key today by the way, so excuse the huge sentences - barbelith is a mixed-gender environment, do you think people would be less likely to admit to being a punter on here for fear of jeopardising future ear-cocking opportunities?

Would we all admit that we might find someone less attractive if they had used a prostitute? In which case the fear of being seen as ugly and/or desparate would be justified
 
 
Papess
12:16 / 19.09.02
Lyra wrote:
Would we all admit that we might find someone less attractive if they had used a prostitute? In which case the fear of being seen as ugly and/or desparate would be justified

This is not only insulting, but it makes about as much sense as saying that a lesbian chooses to lick pussy because she is not attractive enough to get a man!

Are we trying to overcome these stereotypes we have been force-fed or is this discussion going to perpetuate these myths and biases?

(Lyra, I am not singling you out, I realize you were just asking a question...I would hope anyway!)

I personally am sick of the hypocrisy of the general public who I KNOW use sexual services but, on the other hand, don't have the balls to admit to it because of some misconception about what this might actually make them, ie: ugly.

Oh the fucken vanity.

I will say it again....There are many reasons to hire someone to provide sexual services, ugliness is not even remotely a predominant reason!!!

What about those who use pornography? Are they ugly too? Are they even too ugly for a prostitute? Really people, where is the logic?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:18 / 19.09.02
This is not only insulting, but it makes about as much sense as saying that a lesbian chooses to lick pussy because she is not attractive enough to get a man!

It certainly assumes that the sex worker is a last-line recourse for people too ugly or too dull or too highly-specialised or too emotionally inert or whatever to get a partner who will have sex with them without having to be paid for it. Which is maybe the assumption that needs to be challenged; that paid sex is a form of sex, but a very low-esteem one, rather than a different sort of thing altogether.

So, if one were to launch an ad campaign with the aim of updating prostituion's image, what would be the key messages to communicate?
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
18:02 / 19.09.02
That's because he is playing Devil's Advocate.Haus is a Master Debater.
As far as the "too ugly to get laid" comment...no,that's not what I was aimimg for at all May. I have seen plenty of good looking men pay for sex. I have gone for massages and paid for them,and both Haus and myself agree that I am that damn goodlooking that I can find sex somewhere free of charge.Why did I do it?Convinense in the form of not having to worry about the perfect buildup that might lead to sex.
 
 
Papess
20:33 / 19.09.02
Re XXX - C.T. ZeN
The one thing I have noticed,since Haus brought it up, is the "Im-so-good-looking-I-get-it-for-free" mentality that infects most male minds.

May Tricks
Men do not like to admit to these exchanges so they do not jeapordize their machismo, because as everyone knows, only ugly men and losers go to Prostitutes and Escorts...etc.???


Sorry Rex, I didn't mean you thought this. I understood from your post that this is a perception that not only some clients have but also the general public. I am begining to realize that this stereotype seems to be widely accepted. There are some who know better such as you and myself but this is not the accepted notion of what constitutes a procurer of sexual services.

BTW, if a woman hires a prostitute it is the same situation as a man hiring a prostitute. My point in the statement...

...but it makes about as much sense as saying that a lesbian chooses to lick pussy because she is not attractive enough to get a man!

...was that, the attractiveness of the procurer is not an issue in either case!

~MT
 
 
Malaclypse2
22:11 / 19.09.02
Well, I'll go out on a limb (metaphorically...)

I've aquired services from sex workers before. Not for any particular 'too ugly to get laid' variation, but for some of the other suggestions above - more convienient when i'm working long strange hours, just moved to a city and hadn't met anyone yet, etc. Also, I really like sex. Prostitutes, rub'n'tug, strippers, casually with friends, randomly with strangers in public bathrooms, intimately with a partner....whatever. I'm also a big fan of porn, although my partner had the biggest collection i've ever seen when i moved in with her, and we watch it together all the time. We both like sex.

I can understand the difficulties and embarassments. You don't want your friends to see you walking down the street with a prostitute on your arm. On the other hand, it's not like it's a completely hidden and unheard of industry.

Dump the outdated moral baggage, and you're left with just another service, use it if you need to, don't if you don't.
 
 
Papess
14:51 / 20.09.02
There, was that so hard?

Thank you for being honest Malaclypse2.

There are many reasons for hiring STWs. To be honest, I have hired some myself for a party or two.

~MT
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:33 / 20.09.02
You don't want your friends to see you walking down the street with a prostitute on your arm.

OK, but why not? Why is this not a desirable thing? Because your friends will think less of you? Why?
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
22:55 / 22.09.02
Harsh.
 
 
Papess
01:14 / 23.09.02
I will tell you the story of the Exotic Dancer’s Union that was at one time a near reality:

The Union was in its beginning stages (before I was in the business) and one of the women who was heading the Union was shot dead. The other woman disappeared and so did the collected fees from various dancers who were in support of the Union. This little bit of hearsay has been confirmed for me by several different, unrelated sources in the industry, in Canada. My point being, whether you choose to shoot me down (or other sex trade workers and users), physically, mentally or verbally, you are still perpetuating the attitude of ignorance and obscuration that has been so damaging to those actually involved. This is oppressive and not just merely disagreeable.

Here are some relevant and pertinent points I have made:

*This implies that the only reason to opt for paying for sex is that you are too ugly to get laid. This is certainly not the only reason. Other reasons are: convenience, variety, specialty services, parties and erotic companionship.

*This is all very controlled emotionally …

*I personally look at the john's position as being one of control in his own sexual affairs. He can have what he desires and not fuck anybody up emotionally in the process, not even himself. I think there is something rather logical about that. A point, I might add, you have hinted at yourself in part.

*What about those who use pornography? Are they ugly too? Are they even too ugly for a prostitute? A comment on the logic of the “too ugly to get laid” conundrum.

…. the attractiveness of the procurer is not an issue in either case! In reference to sexual preference being based upon one’s esthetic appeal


Now to address this point you made in reference to being seen with a prostitute. ” OK, but why not? Why is this not a desirable thing? Because your friends will think less of you? Why? ~Tannhauser

Why?…..
1. Because he might be seen as perpetuating the exploitation and oppression of women since the woman’s situation is largely assumed as being one of coercion. A misconception but it does affect behavior.
2. It is illegal
3. His friends may backstab him and tell his wife.
4. People generally keep their sexual practices to themselves, anyway.
5. Shame

~MT
 
 
ciarconn
02:57 / 23.09.02
I have a question thatmight expand the perspective on this matter.
(as a clarification, I live in Mexico, an extremely macho-ist place, women sometimes go to the extreme of "pegame pero no me dejes" (strike me but do not leave me)

Why men do not want to be seen with a prostitute, but show off when they are with their lovers (understanding this as that they have a steady relationship and have another woman)?
 
 
The Natural Way
09:19 / 23.09.02
May....slow down. I don't think haus was beating you up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:28 / 23.09.02
Let's take a look at the possible list of reasons why one might not want to be seen with a sex trade worker.

1. Because he might be seen as perpetuating the exploitation and oppression of women since the woman’s situation is largely assumed as being one of coercion. A misconception but it does affect behavior.
2. It is illegal
3. His friends may backstab him and tell his wife.
4. People generally keep their sexual practices to themselves, anyway.
5. Shame


Now, (5) appears to be tied in to Judeo-Christian ideas of "shame", which associate certain practices - exemplified here by the employment of sex trade workers and by homosexuality. However, that seems to be a slightly misplaced comparison (not pedantry, correctness, before anyone screams and screams until they wet themselves), as homosexuality is a behaviour in and of itself - the sexual desire for people of the same sex. The employment of sex trade workers, on the other hand, unless fuelled by the very specific condition of being sexually excited by the idea of employing a person for sex, is rather an action - a particular instantiation of a sexual desire for one's own or the opposite sex (assuming there are only two - let's put a pin in that for a second). One is a homosexual all the time, whereas one is an employer of sex trade workers only while one is employing sex trade workers. Unless there is some sort of miasma (deviant focialisation) surrounding one from one encounter to the next. Now, possibly one function of this "shame" is to elide the boundaries - the self-hating punter lies awake at night thinking "I am a user of sex trade workers", as opposed to "I am guy who just happens to employ sex trade workers". Possibly that's a confusion that ties into the "shame" aspect, as if one is predisposed to feel guilt (for the distinction between guilt and shame-cultures, see) in the employment of sex trade workers one may also be predisposed to feel guilt about it *all the time*, rather than just about the time of the employment.

That's the kind of thing that probably causes ulcers, and as such probably also foments very unhealthy attitudes. It's a bit like the man who hates himself for smoking, except in this case the inspiration of self-loathing is not just an object but a) a specific person and b) a specific person representing a trade and a series of economic relationships.

So, it's rather like somebody who is terribly ashamed of visiting lawyers, and who might thus a) not wish to be seen with lawyers, even though he wants very much to see *them* and thus b) comes to think of lawyers as morally evil, because they, by their existence, *compel* him to seek out their company. That's not a good position for anyone to be in.

However, it's not an unsustainable position, since lawyers tend to take good care about their own security, meeting people in well-lit, well-staffed spaces with the full recourse, pretty much ipso facto, of the law. Now, before Ms. Tricks decided that the murder of the head of the Exotic Dancers Union was all about her (and remember kids, every time you disagree with May Tricks another sex trade worker gets her wings), one could point out that one problem this highlights is that the law may not be so vigorous, or the situation so canted, that sex trade workers enjoy the same protections. As Maggie O'Kane's article points out, sex trade workers are often sort of *expected* to be murdered by the gen. public.

So, running it backwards, by *legitimizing* the profession of sex trade worker - with regulation, self- or otherwise, taxation, full legal protection et cetera - on could also take steps toward making the profession more *legitimate*, at least in combination with the increasing erosion of Judeo-Christian ethical and moral structures, and thus of the friction created by their conflict with people's desires.

(3) and (4) seem to tie in essentially to shame also, or social constructions anyway, although neither, at a moment's thought (and there may be further complications here) are particularly tied into the sex trade worker - people may not talk about their sex lives (although it seems at times that certainly many of my friends do little else. Still, they are young...), but this is not restricted only to their sex lives with sex trade workers. Likewise, if the friends saw the fellow with another woman of any kind, the backstabbing possibility would exist - perhaps it would be worse somehow if it was a sex trade worker? Although possibly exactly the reverse; as May points out (which is entirely relevant, and I thank her for her restatement), the lack of emotional connection in the relationship between prostitute and punter, and thus the lack of "commitment" except in a fashion clearly defined by financial exchange, and thus less of a threat, perhaps?


(2) is an interesting one, and where applicable certainly is likey to get seriously in the way of protecting sex trade workers from problems in (5) and in (1). Now, (1). This *is* an interesting one. Because it is presumably not always the case that "one would be perpetuating the exploitation and oppression of women since the woman’s situation is largely assumed as being one of coercion" is an incorrect assumption. That is to say, in some cases the woman's situation (or the man's - we have male sex trade workers as well, which is worth noting) *is* one of coercion, although not by the client, but by failures of social services, management, chemical dependency - at present there is no way to be sure that the sex trade worker you might employ will see the lion's share of the money you give her in exchange for hir labour, for example.

Which might lead us back to the "ad campaign for sex trade work". Something I am quite interested in is the idea of a "fairtrade sex trade" idea - where one could consult a website or directory or similar to discover whether the sex trade worker you are considering employing is classified, classification meaning that, say, ze is self-employed and self-managed and thus not in an unequal financial relationship with a pimp. Which would be a start. Employers of sex trade workers who remain unlicensed are not persecuted by the law, neither are the sex trade workers themselves, but those who profit from their labour are vigorously persecuted, and those from whose labour they are profiting encouraged to set up for themselves (or possibly, if they don't want the hassle of dealing with their own tax returns, with a licensed manager), with the guarantee of the protection of the law.

This, perhaps, would remove one of the elements that might lead to employers of sex trade workers feeling bad about themselves, and thus aboutthe sex trade workers, and might make the sex trade, if not utterly exempt from (4), at least a bit better off with regards to (5). Much as punters are able to spend a little more money to know that their coffee was offered to them without exploitation, by workers receiving a fair wage for their work, the same might be offered for sexual services. At the very least, the archaic legal strictures against sex trade work would be modernised and directed not against the blameless sex trade worker or sex trade employer, but rather against those seeking to exploit the dubious legal status of sex trade workers (at least in the UK - not sure about elsewhere - it varies on a state-by-state basis in the US, yes?), either from above or below, if you'll pardon the expression - abusive managers or violent punters.

But then, perhaps I am painting an unnecessarily dystopian picture of modern sex trade work and proposing unwieldy and ineffectual legislation...
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:21 / 23.09.02
I'm sure that we can play nice, kids.

Haus could possibly be less spiky, with due consideration to his interlocutors. If you are misunderstood, then spending time correcting misconceptions would be admirable. More so with the effort required.

May might take a little more time before deciding that others are judgemental. I realise that you probably meet these attitudes all the time, May, but Tom's views above are probably more indicative of the majority here on Barbelith.


I like the idea of "fair trade" sex work, but I think that the prohibition laws are partly based on "traditional" ethical as well utilitarian or pragmatic considerations. There are parallels to be made with drug laws where scapegoating, though not by that name, is seen as more important than harm reduction. So it remains unclear to me whether legitimisation of sex work can be led by legal change, unless an accident of democracy allows for unrepresentative representation.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:27 / 23.09.02
Very good point. However, parliamentary democracies do things that do not have the support of a majority of the public all the time, as long as they can do so without endangering their party's chances of retaining power at the next election (the death penalty is a good example of this - although public opinion is apparently in favour of the return of the death penalty, at the very least for nonces, it is unlikely that there will ever be a sufficient quorum of MPs with similar views to swing the balance). Is it possible for our rulers to acknowledge that many people currently have very unhealthy attitudes towards sex work, but then to decide that, in the interests of harm reduction (qv Holland's take on drugs), legislation should be introduced to protect the status and rights of sex workers regardless of how many people might disapprove of them or their profession?

A pertinent objection might be that this legislation, however benign in its intent, might be seen as imposed from above, from those who have little familiarity with sex workers (well, all right, I realise this is comparatively unlikely in the House of Lords at least) and thus broadly flouted. Which is perhaps why sex workers must organise in order to have a voice and a degree of weight in discussions over how legal systems could move away from traditional views of what is ethical in order to address the current needs of the citizens of the states they administer.
 
 
Papess
14:13 / 23.09.02
I certainly like the "fair trade" sex trade idea. Certainly Tannhauser is correct to say, "Which is perhaps why sex workers must organise in order to have a voice and a degree of weight in discussions..." However, there is not only some degree of imposed shame in sex trade but also, fear. The "Tale of the Two Strippers" I posted is an extreme example of what happens to Sex Workers who try to organize.

To stay on topic in this thread though, I will move the rest of my comments on the revamping of the Sex Trade to Sex Workers - Is anything wrong with the status and conditions thereof, and how, if necessary, should change be made?


The organizing and standardizing of this industry would certainly help improve the image of Sex Trade. Hopefully, punters would feel more comfortable then with their actions and not feel they are contributing to the exploitation of said workers.

There still is no recourse to escape the shaming by rolling pin though!....lol

~MT
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:25 / 23.09.02
On punters - so, sex workers live (not exclusively, but it seems in some cases) in an environment of fear, where organising may lead to threats on their physical safety, their forced exile from their current haunts...what, if anything, can the punters do to help this? Without punters, the sex trade cannot function. Does this give punters enormous power to motivate change (although getting punters to mobilise is probably going to be harder yet than workers) through economic pressure, or does the availability of replacement punters make them ultimately disposable?
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:45 / 23.09.02
However, parliamentary democracies do things that do not have the support of a majority of the public all the time as long as they can do so without endangering their party's chances of retaining power at the next election - Haus

Indeed. And since the arguments for harm reduction are pretty irrefutable, in my view, one is left with politicians making a decision based on either a principled stand or an electorally motivated calculation.

So we move (return?) to education. If sex workers themselves are oppressed to the point of physical violence and the punters are disposable and vulnerable who is able to organise a movement for change? It makes for a depressing thought.

In this sense, May Tricks may well be right in that the key to the problem is to diminish the social cost in revealing one's employment of sex workers. By confronting others with an unashamed admission might make it easier for punters generally to admit their habits. This, in turn, might also make it easier to exercise consumer choice, which could well include fair trade sex. After all, it is probably difficult to demand conditions for yourself and the sex trade worker if your priority is secrecy.

Perhaps this underestimates the collective power of the sex workers themselves. Or perhaps it is an acknowledgement that real change needs to gain support from patriarchal power structures? I'm not sure about that last point at all, but it might go some way to explaining the difference in attitudes towards sex and drugs, at least in the UK.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:59 / 23.09.02
I think it's probably one of those vicious circles - as long as it is considered "shameful" to be a sex trade worker, it will be considered shameful to be a procurer, and vice versa. Problem there being, where is the first step going to be made? I would hope governments could work to destigmatize sex work as, say, the Dutch government has destigmatised heroin ("it's not the greatest idea in the world, there is this health risk and this health risk, but if you really feel it's the thing for you, come to this warm, comfortable space, use our clean needles, make sure the stuff you are injecting is not cut with anything dangerous, and let's minimise the risks as much as possible, rather than force you to live in the shadows).

But, as you say, it seems unlikely that a British government is likely to do either in a hurry, more's the pity. I* suspect it is not so much a principled stand or a desire to play to the gallery - it's just not caring. Sex workers don't have much of an electoral presence, and sex worker issues are not a big vote-winner, so why bother?

So yes, nobody is ashamed to admit that they buy drugs, but buying sex is a very different matter, and I think that probably is a very good start, although it would have to be along the lines of "I buy sex, and as a patron I want...." rather than just talking about it with your friends. Likewise, a union of sex workers could get a lot of cheap visibility, but the people most in need of their assistance would, as ever, be most likely to fall through the cracks, as they would not be the comparatively well-off, politicised sex workers who would almost certainly be at the heart of such a movement.

So, back to the punters. I'm afraid I cannot offer my own experience, having never, regrettably, employed the services of a sex worker, so we must throw the floor upon. Malaleclipse, or anyone else - what do you look for in a sex worker? Looks, apparent good health, no evidence of intravenous drug use? What would make you turn down, or select, a particular sex worker? And would you be prepared to join a group of employers of sex trade workers lobbying for better medical care, better conditions or greater legal protection for sex workers, or is that no more your problem than how much the person who hands you your Big Mac or rings up your change in the grocers is earning?
 
  

Page: (1)23

 
  
Add Your Reply