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Seeing as Im new on here....

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
22:07 / 16.09.02
That's up to you. However, I'll tell you now: you've tripped over some of the most strongly held convictions of Barbelith posters. They're going to take you seriously.

If you want to enjoy this place and profit from it, you're going to have to engage in the discussion which will spring from this thread with something more constructive than either "it's my opinion, don't oppress me" or "I can't believe you're taking this seriously". Those are the equivalents, in Barbelith's brief history, of "I was only following orders".

It's good that you're honest. You're going to be asked to question your beliefs. That's what Barbelith is all about. If you're honest, you will come out of this richer. You can, of course, return the favour. You'll need arguments and evidence. Your interlocutors will be as scrupulous in examining their own beliefs as they are in assailing yours.

Make it work.
 
 
bacon
22:33 / 16.09.02
Gypsies are real?! I thought they were fictitious characters, like unicorns, fairies, and eskimos. Jesus, I just can't wrap my head around this one.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:40 / 16.09.02
What I am finding most endearing about our new special baby is that *she* is so clearly auditioning *us*. It's adorable.

Mind you, she is Scottish, and as I believe Justin Brief pointed out, the Scots are pretty much congenitally stupid, so what's to be done?
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
22:51 / 16.09.02
As can be applied in all situations of this type that come up here, you can fume and cry "Ignorance!" or you can try to educate. If you choose the former route, don't be surprised when the poster leaves as ignorant as he/she came in. I personally don't know much about Gypsy/Romany culture at all, and I'm sure that there are many others out there who are in the same boat. If you're knowledgeable, educate! This might all be a semantic argument, anyway, the likes of which Haus alluded to above. Let's keep that in mind, please. Patience and understanding for the differing ways in which the minds of others work is much more becoming than an immediate retaliatory leap for the jugular.
 
 
Seth
22:56 / 16.09.02
cyclepathGIRL: How much time have you spent looking around other forums on Barbelith (besides the Conversation)? I'm curious.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:58 / 16.09.02
You said you were Islamophobic but you never actually made any bigoted comments towards Muslims. You've called Gypsies tramps and basically fell in to the 'they dumped a sofa in my front garden' line of thought that most people have heard a hundred times. Now, I question, who is this mythic person who had this sofa dumped in their garden. I hear about them all the time but I've not met them.

I've never met a gypsy so I make no presumptions but I have met a few 'Snatch' style pikies and they scared me. I couldn't understand a word and one of the guys kept flirting with me. How do you brush someone off when you don't have a clue what they're saying? There's another thread for conversation.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:01 / 16.09.02
Well, yes, Deric, except:

1. I take my point of view about gypsys no more seriously than I would do if someone were to say they hated my favourite movie or song. Thats life, people have differences in opinion.

2. The fact that what I said has been brought to such a high level of debate worries me. I hear things everyday that I disagree with but I don't take it personally. It's not like I'm giving someone a personality assassanation by saying that gypsys are tramps. I think some of you should chill the fuck out and stop being so self absorbed.


The first of these points presents a status denigrating people on ethnic grounds as equivalent to a dispute about a particular song or movie. It is just about possible that our interlocutor genuinely believes this, but if so then she is in a minority so tiny and so numpty-heided that starting with Barbelith may not be a terribly good idea.

The second merely suggests that she does not read other people's posts. Since two people have so far declared that they have Romany blood, describing all "gypsies" as smelly, lazy, larcenous tramps *is* a personality assassination.

I can only suggest a long, calming walk around Swansea, followed by a nice cup of tea and a little think.

Did I say Swansea? Ooops, silly me. Wherever in Scotland.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:03 / 16.09.02
I take offence Haus, I think you were just terribly insulting of Swansea, implying that it was up North.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:15 / 16.09.02
I always get torn between wanting to be pleasant and win the person over and getting very irritated and wanting to express that. While Haus makes good points, didn't Nick's slightly softer approach look more likely to get some self examination going?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:16 / 16.09.02
Care to make a small wager?
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:21 / 16.09.02
But if I'm just right sometimes, isn't it worth it? I don't care if you paint me naive and call me Shirley.

You can't be right about this every time.
 
 
Seth
23:28 / 16.09.02
I say we trainwreck the thread and see whether cyclepathGIRL is David Dunn or Mr Glass. Been a while since we had a decent firey initiation. Normal exp diplomacy will resume tomorrow morning after a nice lie-in.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:40 / 16.09.02
What, David Dunn the recently-capped Blackburn Rovers midfielder? And Stephen Glass the Scottish international winger?

I like the cut of your jib, Mr. C.
 
 
Seth
23:43 / 16.09.02
What, Mr. C from Hollyoaks? Or that bloke out of the Shaman?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:55 / 16.09.02
I suspect that all this examination is going nowhere anyway. You can't change someone's mind if they give no reason behind their dislike of something. Antagonism is the only true path to happiness. Plus cyclepathGIRL I want to know if you really give a flying ^^^^.

Hollyoaks, I hope, he so cool
 
 
Saint Keggers
23:59 / 16.09.02
Well I just want to say thanks to Tannhauser. Its been a while since I laughed like that. (No, it never gets old...)

And seeing as how Cyclepath seems to be in the minority here, she's the underdog and seeing as how I root for the underdog..She's right and you're all wrong! ..oh wait..she's a ninja supporter. So feeding into her islamaphobia....Pirate Jyhad!!!! (insert Xena styla alalalalalala).
Actually the only things I know about gypsies I got from reading Thinner by Stephen King and an article in last months canadian version of Readers Digest. SO putting it all together what I can tell you for 1000% certaninty is.. If you run over one of them dont eat their pies and they are losing their culture due to modernization.So I think its fairly obvious that what most people know about gypsies they've gleaned from not too damn reliable source references.. so give me your links, your books, your reccomendations to increase our knowlege of gypsy culture.
 
 
bacon
00:15 / 17.09.02
What I want is to learn more of the wiley Canadian. He's an elusive, drunken, yet friendly sort. Maybe too friendly. The Canadians are plotting something. Have been for years. They've been quiet too long. Except the Frenchies of course. They're harmless. And Mike Myers was an ugly thing to do to us.
 
 
Sax
06:37 / 17.09.02
Janina: I take offence Haus, I think you were just terribly insulting of Swansea, implying that it was up North.

And what the fuck's wrong with up North? You said that like it was in Ireland or something.
 
 
Aimes
07:54 / 17.09.02
Kegboy - get your peepers round this.
 
 
Bear
07:55 / 17.09.02
Cyclepath = Cher

You mark my words, there's allot of repressed memories here about dancin for the money they'd throw.
 
 
grant
13:31 / 17.09.02
Bear beat me to it.

Damn.

Every night, all the men would come around....

Deric: . I personally don't know much about Gypsy/Romany culture at all, and I'm sure that there are many others out there who are in the same boat. If you're knowledgeable, educate!

Although the word "gypsy" is generally thought to refer to an Egyptian origin for this group, anthropologists are now fairly sure they're descendants of nomadic people from northern India, who only entered Europe by way of Egypt. I think this happened sometime after the fall of the Caesars and before the signing of the Magna Carta, but I'm not sure. "Gypsy" is a name given by outsiders - I'm under the impression that "Rom" is the people's name for themselves, with "Romany" being the name for the language (no relation to either Rome or Romanian, I'd assume), but I also remember hearing that there are different names for various ethnic subdivisions within Rom culture (which is much larger than you might suspect).
There's an excellent documentary called Latcho Drom that's about the Rom migration. It has no narration, no interviews, no spoken material at all - just a sequence of songs done by Rom people in various countries from India to Egypt, Turkey, Romania, Germany, and Spain. Seasons change. People live.
It's well worth a watch - sort of National Geographic meets MTV.
Much of the social attitudes towards the Rom have been shaped by their nomadism - home-owning, city-building cultures tend to focus on building up stores of resources, and view anyone who simply passes through and lives off what they can find on the way as a threat to the stores. Similar, ethnically unrelated societies have been fiercely oppressed in American history, with the eugenics movement in the early 20th century actually rounding them up and sterilizing them, while law enforcement did what they could to stop their annual triangular pilgrimage between three cities in the east-central part of the country.

Here's a bit of their history:
The Ramapaughs of northern New Jersey (incorrectly known as the "Jackson Whites") present another romantic and archetypal genealogy: freed slaves of the Dutch poltroons, various Delaware and Algonquin clans, the usual "prostitutes," the "Hessians" (a catch-phrase for lost British mercenaries, drop-out Loyalists, etc.), and local bands of social bandits such as Claudius Smith's.

An African-Islamic origin is claimed by some of the groups, such as the Moors of Delaware and the Ben Ishmaels, who migrated from Kentucky to Ohio in the mid-18th century. The Ishmaels practiced polygamy, never drank alcohol, made their living as minstrels, intermarried with Indians and adopted their customs, and were so devoted to nomadism that they built their houses on wheels. Their annual migration triangulated on frontier towns with names like Mecca and Medina. In the 19th century some of them espoused anarchist ideals, and they were targeted by the Eugenicists for a particularly vicious pogrom of salvation-by-extermination. Some of the earliest Eugenics laws were passed in their honor. As a tribe they "disappeared" in the 1920's, but probably swelled the ranks of early "Black Islamic" sects such as the Moorish Science Temple. I myself grew up on legends of the "Kallikaks" of the nearby New Jersey Pine Barrens (and of course on Lovecraft, a rabid racist who was fascinated by the isolate communities). The legends turned out to be folk-memories of the slanders of the Eugenicists, whose U.S. headquarters were in Vineland, NJ, and who undertook the usual "reforms" against "miscegenation" and "feeblemindedness" in the Barrens (including the publication of photographs of the Kallikaks, crudely and obviously retouched to make them look like monsters of misbreeding).

The "isolate communities"--at least, those which have retained their identity into the 20th century--consistently refuse to be absorbed into either mainstream culture or the black "subculture" into which modern sociologists prefer to categorize them. In the 1970's, inspired by the Native American renaissance, a number of groups--including the Moors and the Ramapaughs--applied to the B.I.A. for recognition as Indian tribes. They received support from native activists but were refused official status.
(from Hakim Bey, here.)

There are also plenty of Rom in America, too - they've been here at least since the 1800s. In South Florida, they often pass as Cuban (dark hair & skin, slightly accented English).
There are good chances I've met some and simply not known it.

Personal anecdote, compressed form: My uncle Peter, as a toddler, was stolen by gypsies, according to my grandmother's diary. The family was sheltering from the war in a castle in Czechoslovakia, and a troupe of musicians breezed through town. When they left, Peter was gone. They found him two towns down the road. The performers apparently promised him a monkey and pony of his very own.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:48 / 17.09.02
Northerners - can't even write in the Queen's English, never mind talk in it. Chips and fucking curry sauce, shell suits, I'm running out of cliches...
 
 
Sax
15:09 / 17.09.02
Running out of cliches? After two? What, did a sheep distract your attention or something?

etc.
 
 
Saveloy
15:24 / 17.09.02
Chips and fucking curry sauce is a delicacy that knows no borders, real or imagined. It's chips and gravy what's Northern, and very nice it is too. I was born in Scarborough and remained there for at least 3 weeks before moving to the IOW so I know everything that's worth saying on the matter.
 
 
paw
15:27 / 17.09.02
the north sax? a way with ye, at least we're not like those ignorant free staters down below who all have ginger hair, let sheep roam around grafton street, and plot on bended knee during the daily 4th station of the cross the destruction and twisted humiliation of every unionist if ireland becomes united.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:38 / 17.09.02
Nowt wrong with ginger hair, buster. Not like all those thicko blondes...
 
 
Someone Else
15:43 / 17.09.02
Are we allowed to criticize the Scots now? Cooooooool...
 
 
Ambicath
16:26 / 17.09.02
I strongly recommend the novel "Fork In The Road" by Denis Hamill. Excellent read, highly entertaining. Fiction, but the guy's got big time inside info.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:34 / 17.09.02
Hey I eat chips and gravy and I'm no fucking Northern tosser. Deep fried mars bars - disgusting - Northern. Isle Of Wight, I went there this summer, Freshwater is quite boring and there's only one Pizza Hut on the whole island.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:43 / 17.09.02
it's those fucking south africans I can't stand, bunch of safari-suit-wearing bartending whinging bastards
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:52 / 17.09.02
yeah, parents can be horrible
 
 
deja_vroom
17:54 / 17.09.02
Not to mention backpackers...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:02 / 17.09.02
evangelists.
 
 
Persephone
18:26 / 17.09.02
yeah, parents can be horrible

Ah ha ha ha ha!
 
 
The Strobe
19:53 / 17.09.02
You really shouldn't have mentioned ginger hair. That's fighting talk where I come from...
 
  

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